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Author Topic: Global Warming: the money grab  (Read 27218 times)

Jennifer Hubbard

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2014, 07:46:18 PM »

The question is not whether the planet has ever been warmer in the past; it has. The question of most urgent interest to the human race is the range of conditions over all of human history. The planet is warmer than it has been during our tenure here. So the real question is whether the warming will, if it continues, take us outside the range of conditions that sustain human life.

Planet Earth will still be here either way, warm or cool. It doesn't depend on us to exist.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2014, 10:02:03 PM »

The question is not whether the planet has ever been warmer in the past; it has. The question of most urgent interest to the human race is the range of conditions over all of human history. The planet is warmer than it has been during our tenure here. So the real question is whether the warming will, if it continues, take us outside the range of conditions that sustain human life.

Planet Earth will still be here either way, warm or cool. It doesn't depend on us to exist.

And it has been colder than during our tenure.

IMHO, the question is whether the human race can adapt itself sensibly to either extreme while remaining solvent and retaining our humanity.
Tim
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Jeff Lange

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2014, 05:59:24 AM »

I always like to think of the term "climate change" sort of like "military intelligence"- both oxymoron's!
Due to the nature of our world's atmosphere it will always be in a state of change.
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Will Hatchell

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2014, 12:20:40 PM »

I always like to think of the term "climate change" sort of like "military intelligence"- both oxymoron's!
Due to the nature of our world's atmosphere it will always be in a state of change.

Oh so correct – ever since Earth developed an atmosphere, hundreds of millions of years ago, climate has constantly (and likely, cyclically) changed! Nothing unusual about it, and doubtful that it can be triggered or impeded by man. There is nothing as pathetic and dangerous than politicized science!  >:(
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Dan Swift

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2014, 12:22:21 PM »

Bingo Will!  Right on!
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drriddle

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2014, 04:35:21 PM »

I see that Mr. Mellon wants to argue dishonestly.....

By using the word "recorded", I was obviously talking about temperatures measured using modern methods.  This record goes back to the 1880s, and is considered the "modern" temperature record.  Measurements of temperature beyond that are developed using various methods, some more accurate than others (which is why there is uncertainty in some of those temperature ranges).  The statement of "what about the last 20,000 years" is as ludicrous as if I pointed out the Earth was so warm 4.5 billion years ago that the rocks were liquid...it's a true fact, but it has nothing to do with the discussion.  In fact, statements like that show how insecure someone is in their understanding of the totality of the data, physics, and real questions.

The idea that humans can't affect the climate is also wrong, and we've seen it clearly in the past.  Or, not so clearly...Los Angeles had smog that was so thick you couldn't see the mountains from less than 5 miles away, but now it's always clear enough to do so.  That's local climate, but we also have acid rain and its effects across the eastern US (caused by pollution), desertification due to cutting forests, and how the oceans are becoming more acidic and running out of fish.  And then there is the ozone hole over Antarctica...the chemical reactions that break down ozone are caused by human created CFCs, and reducing the production of those has stopped the growth of the hole.  That's a global effect we had, so it's an ignorant statement to say humans can't affect the entire global climate.  We already have...the idea that the climate is always changing so we can't affect it is illogical on its face, and ignores millennia of evidence.

And, it's throwing stones in glass houses to call a research scientist job "cushy".  It's better than working at McDonalds, but I have yet to fly on a private jet, ride in a limo, or do all those other things wealthy people get to do whenever they want.  In fact, I have a lot more in common with the geologists who do oil exploration, and no one would call their lives cushy...unless they wanted to distract from the people who had really cushy lives and were trying to distract anyone from noticing.

Politicizing the science is not being done by the scientists.  It's an easy experiment to show that adding CO2 to a bottle of air causes it to heat up faster than a bottle of air alone.  It's basic physics, and a lot of the other things involved in climate change are not difficult concepts.  The hard part about climate science is all of the interrelations, and how slowly things can change.  It's those who will lose their largess if the world community decides to cut back on CO2 emissions to mitigate the effects of climate change who are attacking the scientists personally (as seen above against Dr. Mann) and who bring out lies (it wasn't scientists who said there was global cooling in the '70s, it was journalists) to support their attacks.  The same propaganda strategy was used against scientists studying the idea that smoking caused lung cancer.  You can tell because people spout off about things like "scientists aren't studying the sinking US east coast!" when in fact that is included in the models of sea rise rates. 

If someone is using lies to support their argument (as Mr. Mellon is), then you have to doubt the accuracy of anything they have to say.  I can't say that he's knowingly lying, it's completely possible that he's ignorant of the facts, but it behooves everyone to find out the facts for yourselves (from scholarly articles and reputable websites that report the science and NOT the propaganda from either side of the political debate) and decide what is really going on.

Reed
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2014, 05:45:44 PM »

I see that Mr. Mellon wants to argue dishonestly.....

By using the word "recorded", I was obviously talking about temperatures measured using modern methods.  This record goes back to the 1880s, and is considered the "modern" temperature record.  Measurements of temperature beyond that are developed using various methods, some more accurate than others (which is why there is uncertainty in some of those temperature ranges).  The statement of "what about the last 20,000 years" is as ludicrous as if I pointed out the Earth was so warm 4.5 billion years ago that the rocks were liquid...it's a true fact, but it has nothing to do with the discussion.  In fact, statements like that show how insecure someone is in their understanding of the totality of the data, physics, and real questions.

The idea that humans can't affect the climate is also wrong, and we've seen it clearly in the past.  Or, not so clearly...Los Angeles had smog that was so thick you couldn't see the mountains from less than 5 miles away, but now it's always clear enough to do so.  That's local climate, but we also have acid rain and its effects across the eastern US (caused by pollution), desertification due to cutting forests, and how the oceans are becoming more acidic and running out of fish.  And then there is the ozone hole over Antarctica...the chemical reactions that break down ozone are caused by human created CFCs, and reducing the production of those has stopped the growth of the hole.  That's a global effect we had, so it's an ignorant statement to say humans can't affect the entire global climate.  We already have...the idea that the climate is always changing so we can't affect it is illogical on its face, and ignores millennia of evidence.

And, it's throwing stones in glass houses to call a research scientist job "cushy".  It's better than working at McDonalds, but I have yet to fly on a private jet, ride in a limo, or do all those other things wealthy people get to do whenever they want.  In fact, I have a lot more in common with the geologists who do oil exploration, and no one would call their lives cushy...unless they wanted to distract from the people who had really cushy lives and were trying to distract anyone from noticing.

Politicizing the science is not being done by the scientists.  It's an easy experiment to show that adding CO2 to a bottle of air causes it to heat up faster than a bottle of air alone.  It's basic physics, and a lot of the other things involved in climate change are not difficult concepts.  The hard part about climate science is all of the interrelations, and how slowly things can change.  It's those who will lose their largess if the world community decides to cut back on CO2 emissions to mitigate the effects of climate change who are attacking the scientists personally (as seen above against Dr. Mann) and who bring out lies (it wasn't scientists who said there was global cooling in the '70s, it was journalists) to support their attacks.  The same propaganda strategy was used against scientists studying the idea that smoking caused lung cancer.  You can tell because people spout off about things like "scientists aren't studying the sinking US east coast!" when in fact that is included in the models of sea rise rates. 

If someone is using lies to support their argument (as Mr. Mellon is), then you have to doubt the accuracy of anything they have to say.  I can't say that he's knowingly lying, it's completely possible that he's ignorant of the facts, but it behooves everyone to find out the facts for yourselves (from scholarly articles and reputable websites that report the science and NOT the propaganda from either side of the political debate) and decide what is really going on.

Reed

Dr. Riddle, to use such invective in unbecoming and inappropriate. We can disagree without being uncivil, I hope.

As to "cushy", would you care to disclose your salary, health benefits, and other perks (such as tenure)?

As to Michael Mann, his use of statistics has clearly been shown to be dishonest.

I disagree that the focus on the cycle of Ice Ages is ludicrous (or spurious). This naturally occurring phenomenon, in a fairly regular pattern, is not just incidental to the change of climate, and obviously cannot be attributed to human activity.

Politicizing the science, as you say, is not by the scientists, I agree. It is by politicians like Al Gore, who unlike you, do fly around in their private jets while hypocritically preaching energy conservation to the rest of the population. And Al Gore does not admit that Florida is subsiding.

You have misquoted me in several instances. Please desist.

Tim
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« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 06:05:43 PM by Tim Mellon »
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richie conroy

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2014, 06:53:09 PM »

Hi All

Am no scientist or academic but i do believe that global warming is due to man made creations for example

The earth is a bubble agreed ?, the only 3 things that can enter earths bubble are A - Sun solar rays, B - Meteorites, C - comets,

To exit the bubble it takes a shuttle with the thrust of
Sea level   Vacuum
100% thrust   1,670 kN (380,000 lbf)   2,090 kN (470,000 lbf)
104.5% thrust   1,750 kN (390,000 lbf)   2,170 kN (490,000 lbf)
109% thrust   1,860 kN (420,000 lbf)   2,280 kN (510,000 lbf)

I have 3 possible answer's

Answer 1: Every time an object bursts out the bubble the earth atmosphere shrinks = the smaller the space the easier to heat.

Answer 2: when earth had entered it's habit ant age it was balanced, However due to the continuous building of sky scrapers the earth is developing an egg type rotation

Answer 3: Human race is evolving and with that so is the amount of people with central heating, so work it out if the heat created by man kind can't exit the bubble ?

What's the bubble going to do ?     
We are an echo of the past


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Tim Mellon

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2014, 06:57:52 PM »

The Sun has a large effect on climate, as without it we wouldn't have one.  The Sun, however, has gone through no significant changes (in total output or due to sunspots) that relate to the changes we have seen over the past 50 years.  There are plenty of scientific papers about this, so we already know your hunch is incorrect.

Reed

This paper from Harvard (1997) seems to disagree with your above assertion, Dr. Riddle.
Tim
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Steve Lee

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2014, 08:33:42 PM »

The Sun has a large effect on climate, as without it we wouldn't have one.  The Sun, however, has gone through no significant changes (in total output or due to sunspots) that relate to the changes we have seen over the past 50 years.  There are plenty of scientific papers about this, so we already know your hunch is incorrect.

Reed

This paper from Harvard (1997) seems to disagree with your above assertion, Dr. Riddle.

Tim, you neglected to mention the controversy over the paper you cited.

As I mentioned in an earlier post on the thread this discussion started on, I think anyone interested in understanding the politics of climate change 'controversy' might want to read the book Merchants of Doubt

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Tim Mellon

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2014, 10:41:25 PM »

Steve, wouldn't you have to agree with me that "disagreement" and "controversy" are pretty much synonimous?
Tim
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2014, 11:42:47 PM »

I always like to think of the term "climate change" sort of like "military intelligence"- both oxymoron's!
Due to the nature of our world's atmosphere it will always be in a state of change.

Here's another one, Jeff:

"Scientific Consensus"
Tim
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Steve Lee

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2014, 07:51:00 AM »

Steve, wouldn't you have to agree with me that "disagreement" and "controversy" are pretty much synonimous?

So you want to discuss the meanings of the words ‘disagreement’ and ‘controversy’ rather than the substance of what the link I provided says about the credibility of your Harvard paper?

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Mark Samuels

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2014, 09:05:11 AM »

Steve, wouldn't you have to agree with me that "disagreement" and "controversy" are pretty much synonimous?

So you want to discuss the meanings of the words ‘disagreement’ and ‘controversy’ rather than the substance of what the link I provided says about the credibility of your Harvard paper?

The Sun has a large effect on climate, as without it we wouldn't have one.  The Sun, however, has gone through no significant changes (in total output or due to sunspots) that relate to the changes we have seen over the past 50 years.  There are plenty of scientific papers about this, so we already know your hunch is incorrect.

Reed

This paper from Harvard (1997) seems to disagree with your above assertion, Dr. Riddle.

Tim, you neglected to mention the controversy over the paper you cited.

As I mentioned in an earlier post on the thread this discussion started on, I think anyone interested in understanding the politics of climate change 'controversy' might want to read the book Merchants of Doubt.

One more piece of reading for those who interested in climate change.  The link below discusses changes in atmospheric CO2 and climate over geological time scales.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-higher-in-past-intermediate.htm

Its may be useful to have the accurate information to form your opinion about a subject.  Here is a link to a web site that provides the information on climate change:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11462-climate-change-a-guide-for-the-perplexed.html#.U_Xxm0gm2CT

You Sir can Google till your hearts content, but until you post the links to both sides of the debate on 'Global Warming/Climate Change', your opinion falls short.  I can cite dozens of books, hundreds of bookmarks I have on the subject and even the Climate Science geeks can't even come to a consensus.  All the graphs and data sets mean nothing as they are skewed to the individuals or organizations mindset on the subject, as is yours.  This issue will not be solved in this forum topic or any other for that matter.  The only thing it will cause is derision among the posters and accomplish nothing but incivility, derision and hard feelings.

I believe Jeff Lange said it best,

"Due to the nature of our world's atmosphere it will always be in a state of change."

I believe it should be left at that in the interest of harmony.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 09:09:08 AM by Mark Samuels »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Global Warming: the money grab
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2014, 09:07:09 AM »

Back and forth, Steve. (No hard feelings).
Tim
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« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 09:10:25 AM by Tim Mellon »
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