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Author Topic: Re: Question for Ric / TIGHAR Vets / fantasy interviews: Tech considerations arising from airplane l  (Read 8853 times)

Monty Fowler

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If the hand ax was aboard for the second attempt I would nominate it as possibly being the primary tool used to whack out the patch.  The blade may have made the cut and the blunt side may have made the dents.

While I am optimistic about 2-V-1-1 coming from our favorite Electra, I am not sold on the idea of forcible removal by humans, for the simple fact of ergonomics - if you look at the lavatory area on the Harney drawings, it is small. I know that desperate times can inspire desperate people to do amazing things, and we are only talking about a relatively flimsy structure, but still ...

LTM, who has a great deal of respect for hatchets,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 07:53:27 AM by Monty Fowler »
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Ric Gillespie

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While I am optimistic about 2-V-1-1 coming from our favorite Electra, I am not sold on the idea of forcible removal by humans, for the simple fact of ergonomics - if you look at the lavatory area on the Harney drawings, it is small. I know that desperate times can inspire desperate people t0 do amazing things, and we are only talking about a relatively flimsy structure, but still ...

It's a testable hypothesis. Aris Scarla and I have been designing an experiment.  We could reconstruct the patch and surrounding structure (including simulating the confines of the lavatory) and see if it is possible to re-create 2-2-V-1 with tools like the hand ax that might reasonably have been available to AE and FN.  It would be a noisy experiment, but instructive.
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C.W. Herndon

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It's a testable hypothesis. Aris Scarla and I have been designing an experiment.  We could reconstruct the patch and surrounding structure (including simulating the confines of the lavatory) and see if it is possible to re-create 2-2-V-1 with tools like the hand ax that might reasonably have been available to AE and FN.  It would be a noisy experiment, but instructive.
If you conduct such an experiment, there are three other items listed on the inventory that would have been very useful in removing said patch, if they were available. On Sheet No. 2 are listed 1ea Cold Chisel, 1ea Punch, and 1ea Hammer. Interesting, to say the least. Maybe we are on to something here!
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Tim Mellon

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Also, possibly the tail wheel guide handle.

Tim
Chairman,  CEO
PanAm Systems

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JNev

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Any kind of ax, punch, chisel or even common screwdriver or similar tool in any number of combinations or alone (given something to strike with) would give a determined and reasonably abled (even 5 percentile female) human a means of releasing a 'patch' on the order of 2-2-V-1 from an airframe such as NR16020's.  Even a battered folding knife struck with a piece of coral would do it...

As to 'explosive force' and fatigue failure - once a fair number of fasteners are gone, one might 'stomp' or bludgeon at the metal with something blunt and heavy, then 'bend' it off by wrenching to and fro like a coathanger wire.

How many experiments need to be run?  What can be observed in 2-2-V-1 strongly suggests a possibility of some combination of these things to me, wherever 2-2-V-1 is really from (I of course hope the Electra) and whomever / whatever tore it loose.
- Jeff Neville

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Tim Gard

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1. Forming an arrow from of an existing clearing,  by collecting firewood at the appropriate edges, seems much more appealing than trying to carve a visible shape out of the scavola in an inaccessible place and from scratch. Collecting firewood without performing a dual function also seems devoid of intention.

I'm fairly confident in saying it would be difficult, well nigh impossible, to cut straight lines through a scaevola patch using bladed hand tools.
Any more than nature's ability to cause the sides of a seven to appear in the same foliage?
In other words, the "seven" was formed because the scaevola chose not to grow there; it wasn't formed by the removal (natural or otherwise) of preexisting material.

Agreed.

So no need for saws producing geometric lines in order for the object to be discernible as a seven.

By that reasoning then, no other object has need for saw produced geometric lines in order to be discernible; case in point - an arrow.

Before we can go any farther with this, we need to know the answer (you may know it already; I myself do not) to this question: was there a bladed implement on the Electra more robust than a folding pocket knife?

Did there need to be such an implement?
Evident:

1. The dire need for fire to sterilise the water in bottles and to cook the seafood and birds found at the site.

2. The need to keep the fire from setting the surrounding area ablaze (initial local trimming). Was this the bar in the A?

3. The interactive need for access to the Buka Forest (shade and water) and to the Seven Site (where fires were started).

4. The need to traverse between same; in cutting the path you are also cutting firewood.

5. While you're traversing between same, the firewood removed might just as well serve some extra purpose. Beating off crabs?

6. Did the castaway(s) really have so much reserve energy that (s)he could afford to perform these as separate functions? The FBI would profile that behaviour as being from a younger person and one not disposed to using too much lookahead. An older person's focus is more likely to be  on lookahead.

An implement might be nice but whether or not it was present the fires were still lit, their remains are in abundance and they had to have something to burn that was obtained from somewhere.



 
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« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 10:06:35 AM by Tim Gard »
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Tim Gard

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Since there seems to be interest in the discussion about the potential for circa-1937 trails at the Seven Site, I felt I should qualify what I said yesterday about my "agreement" with the idea of the trails.  I was agreeing only with the idea that the trails may have at one time been worth exploring in the New Zealand photos.  Time and further analysis showed this idea to be flawed.

One point I'd like to make, and it's sort of a procedural one, is that agreement, in the true sense, is not the ultimate objective to these discussions.  We can all agree or all disagree with one another and still be wrong concerning the true facts.   Agreement, which after all is only another word for group opinion, needs to be balanced by the science to support it.  Groups can often be wrong in their opinions.  Is it testable?  That's an important question.  Is it worth testing?  That's another important question.  To both of these questions, with regard to the trails, the answer to me seems to be no. 

I still think the New Zealand photos are fascinating and may yet offer promising avenues for discussion.  I just don't believe that the trails are this type of avenue. 

Joe Cerniglia
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I think it fantastic that TIGHAR has done the analyses of the New Zealand photos that it has done. It's so much to TIGHAR's credit that they report their findings.

Evidence exists that the body found there lived and died at the Seven Site for a period of "weeks to months", that a campsite routine was established and adhered to and that the Seven Site holds many valid reasons for the castaway to have dwelled there.

Further to those facts, the standard requirements of any human living there are self evident and from which one can extrapolate or interpolate.

I'm saying that any trails that were or were not evident in the photos taken at least 18 months after July 2nd 1937 aren't necessary to provide any proof of existence of the castaway. 

1. The castaway had to have some means of acquiring nutrient, especially water.

2. The castaway had to have some means of moving around to achieve that end.

Whether or not that movement left a lasting impression in the coral does not change things greatly. Would it do any more than confirm - look, the castaway walked around some?
So that's how the stuff found at the Seven Site got sourced.

 



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Nate Pickering

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1. Forming an arrow from of an existing clearing,  by collecting firewood at the appropriate edges, seems much more appealing than trying to carve a visible shape out of the scavola in an inaccessible place and from scratch. Collecting firewood without performing a dual function also seems devoid of intention.

I'm fairly confident in saying it would be difficult, well nigh impossible, to cut straight lines through a scaevola patch using bladed hand tools.
Any more than nature's ability to cause the sides of a seven to appear in the same foliage?
In other words, the "seven" was formed because the scaevola chose not to grow there; it wasn't formed by the removal (natural or otherwise) of preexisting material.

Agreed.

So no need for saws producing geometric lines in order for the object to be discernible as a seven.

By that reasoning then, no other object has need for saw produced geometric lines in order to be discernible; case in point - an arrow.

Before we can go any farther with this, we need to know the answer (you may know it already; I myself do not) to this question: was there a bladed implement on the Electra more robust than a folding pocket knife?

Did there need to be such an implement?
Evident:

1. The dire need for fire to sterilise the water in bottles and to cook the seafood and birds found at the site.

2. The need to keep the fire from setting the surrounding area ablaze...

An implement might be nice but whether or not it was present the fires were still lit, their remains are in abundance and they had to have something to burn that was obtained from somewhere.

You're focusing (not for the first time) on ancillary considerations that have nothing to do with the actual matter at hand. It seems you're just creatively inferring evidence and jumping to hopeful conclusions that would vindicate your own pet hypothesis. Earlier in the thread, I highlighted the fact that there's nothing useful or scientific about such modes of thought.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 09:08:03 AM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Tim Gard

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1. Forming an arrow from of an existing clearing,  by collecting firewood at the appropriate edges, seems much more appealing than trying to carve a visible shape out of the scavola in an inaccessible place and from scratch. Collecting firewood without performing a dual function also seems devoid of intention.

I'm fairly confident in saying it would be difficult, well nigh impossible, to cut straight lines through a scaevola patch using bladed hand tools.
Any more than nature's ability to cause the sides of a seven to appear in the same foliage?
In other words, the "seven" was formed because the scaevola chose not to grow there; it wasn't formed by the removal (natural or otherwise) of preexisting material.

Agreed.

So no need for saws producing geometric lines in order for the object to be discernible as a seven.

By that reasoning then, no other object has need for saw produced geometric lines in order to be discernible; case in point - an arrow.

Before we can go any farther with this, we need to know the answer (you may know it already; I myself do not) to this question: was there a bladed implement on the Electra more robust than a folding pocket knife?

Did there need to be such an implement?
Evident:

1. The dire need for fire to sterilise the water in bottles and to cook the seafood and birds found at the site.

2. The need to keep the fire from setting the surrounding area ablaze...

An implement might be nice but whether or not it was present the fires were still lit, their remains are in abundance and they had to have something to burn that was obtained from somewhere.

You're focusing (not for the first time) on ancillary considerations that have nothing to do with the actual matter at hand. It seems you're just creatively inferring evidence and jumping to hopeful conclusions that would vindicate your own pet hypothesis.

I can only think of you benefiting from watching the rest of the TIGHAR videos.

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« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 09:10:09 AM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Nate Pickering

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I can only think of you benefiting from watching the rest of the TIGHAR videos.

You're proposing a narrative whose events are based on a series of prior assumptions, all of which assume facts that are not in evidence. Me watching some videos isn't going to change that.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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I've removed the last five posts from this thread, FWIW.

I'm not the poster boy for supremely excellent behavior, but it's part of my job as a moderator to do what I can to dampen exchanges that seem to me to go overboard.
LTM,

           Marty
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JNev

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Good work, Marty.  You are actually quite the gentleman, if occasionally irascible.  ;)

It never ceases to amaze me just how similar the computer keyboard and monitor can be to the controls and windows of an automobile when it comes to the expression of angst among fellow citizens.  Somehow visions of 'hunting and pecking' with the middle finger come to mind at times...  :P

Since this thread actually drifted considerably from the topic (dream interviews), partly by my own unwitting hand, I'm going to consider splitting it appropriately.
- Jeff Neville

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Tim Gard

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I've removed the last five posts from this thread, FWIW.
but it's part of my job as a moderator to do what I can to dampen exchanges that seem to me to go overboard.

Quite right too Marty.

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JNev

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It would also be appreciated if posters using extensive quoted material would consider trimming their quotes (as I've taken the liberty of doing, somewhat, above).  Otherwise we wind up with an eye-rolling volume of repetitive information that is actually quite available just up string.

Thank you for your consideration.
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
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