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Author Topic: 2-2-V-1 - patch?  (Read 1108289 times)

JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #930 on: November 10, 2014, 12:38:28 PM »

Probably doesn't matter much but I recall a discussion earlier in the thread (I can't find it at the moment) where it was suggested that 2-2-v-1 was originally a flat piece of sheet made to fit the compound curve section essentially "in place" ie start at one point and force fit from there, rivetting as you go.  At least thats my interpretation of what was posted...

Not saying thats wrong but do we know when the English Wheel came into common use in U.S. aircraft repair circles?  I see the device has been around for a while and would have been perhaps a more elegant way to craft such a patch from sheet stock.  The patch would probably be a very easy fabrication for someone with even basic English Wheel skills and not needing to fight the patch while installing would improve the odds of keeping straight rivet lines for one thing.

http://www.aeroplanefactory.us/Sheet-Metal-Forming.htm

I'm assuming the English wheel was around in Earhart's day.  That said, I don't have any idea that one was available to Bo McNeeley.  Even if it had been - that is also hardly a perfect way to get a great fit on a piece of metal that size (ever used one?); an approximation would of course help - and it is not a severe compound shape, but I still believe the stiffener patterns we see might have been a way to deal with that shape.  I've also pointed out, even if one took the expedient out of simply placing the skin on as a segment of a cylinder, the stiffeners could be desireable to prevent oil canning.  That 'patch' was not a highly-refined compound section of skin in my view, but appears to have been worked into place and stabilized as best the installer could do with limited resources and time.  Opinion, of course, draw your own conclusion.
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Ron Lyons

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #931 on: November 10, 2014, 02:32:06 PM »

Is there a way for TIGHAR to visually represent that the 4 verified rivet lines are there on the picture Jeff analyzed?  That would go a long way to quiet the storm, but I don't know if that technology has a way to SHOW that without altering the photo in such a way that it would raise even more criticism. 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #932 on: November 10, 2014, 04:55:13 PM »

Is there a way for TIGHAR to visually represent that the 4 verified rivet lines are there on the picture Jeff analyzed?  That would go a long way to quiet the storm, but I don't know if that technology has a way to SHOW that without altering the photo in such a way that it would raise even more criticism.

Jeff Glickman and I have been pondering this problem. Some of Jeff's confidence that the rivet lines are there in the Miami Herald photo depends upon his practiced eye in photo interpretation but he is keenly aware that just asking people to take his word for it is not sufficient in a debate as heated as this one. Jeff is presently working at applying a cutting-edge analytical technique to confirming scientifically where the rivet lines are on the patch in the Miami Herald photo.   I have seen a prototype of the processed data and I think I understand how the technique works.  It's very cool but I should let Jeff explain it.  Given the intense debate about the artifact, Jeff has decided to write a report about this issue before completing the hyperspectral imaging analysis. I'm not sure when he'll have it done but I'll publish as soon as it's available.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #933 on: November 10, 2014, 05:07:19 PM »

Thanks to the discovery of a new collection of photos in the University of Miami Library (research sponsored by a dedicated TIGHAR member and Forum contributor) we have a new photo of the Electra with the shiny new patch installed, taken in Miami sometime between Saturday, May 29 (the date of the last photo that shows the window still present) and sundown on May 31.  Can anyone identify the purpose of the striped framework on the ground?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 06:36:21 PM by Ric Gillespie »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #934 on: November 10, 2014, 07:17:08 PM »

Credit for alerting us to the collection that contains the new photo goes to lurker  Dr. Roger Thomas  of Olathe, KS.  On site research was done by UofM student Howard Brilliant at the behest and sponsorship of a dedicated TIGHAR researcher. This was Howard's third TIGHAR research mission in Miami.
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Ron Lyons

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #935 on: November 10, 2014, 08:45:06 PM »

Ironically, in that Miami library photo, the reflection on the bottom of the patch resembles our beloved 'tab'... 
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Nathan Leaf

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #936 on: November 10, 2014, 08:53:00 PM »

Ironically, in that Miami library photo, the reflection on the bottom of the patch resembles our beloved 'tab'...

Similar to the Herald photo, a 'trick' of the horizon/crowd reflection.
TIGHAR No. 4538R
 
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #937 on: November 11, 2014, 07:31:03 AM »

Hmmm ... I can see some panel lines in the new print but I don't think that resolution is going to be good enough to extract what we need about 2-2-V-1.

Is a trip for Jeff Glickman to Miami in order? If so, count me in for some of the airfare.

LRM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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John Ousterhout

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #938 on: November 11, 2014, 08:10:29 AM »

Andrew sez "... I'm guessing it is some sort of fuel pit."
I agree - What looks to me like a fuel hose is visible in the shadows curving up to the port side wing leading edge, and a person standing on that wing paying attention to what I'd guess is the fuel nozzle.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Bill Mangus

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #939 on: November 11, 2014, 09:56:03 AM »

Andrew sez "... I'm guessing it is some sort of fuel pit."
I agree - What looks to me like a fuel hose is visible in the shadows curving up to the port side wing leading edge, and a person standing on that wing paying attention to what I'd guess is the fuel nozzle.

Agree John.  Weren't white coveralls standard dress for mechanics and such in that era?  The person who seems to be seated at some kind of control panel on the right side may be monitoring the pump controls.  Looking close, I think he may be military. A Navy Chief Petty Officer in khakis?  Sure looks like the top of a chief's hat to me.

Ric, were there any notes, dates or other kind of documentation in the folder?  Other (better?) photographs?

I'm wondering if this isn't the final fueling before departure the next morning, right after the a/c came out of the hanger with a bright, shiny new patch.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 10:00:52 AM by BMangus »
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Ted G Campbell

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #940 on: November 11, 2014, 04:18:32 PM »

All,
The attached photo – the night shot of the Hawaii crash – IMO, is the best view of the before “Patch” window framing that we have.  It suggests that the window frame was quite substantial and well engineered.

Perhaps Jeff Glickman can tease out the various rivet patterns that had to be taken into account when it came to designing the “Patch”.  How does the underlying engineered Electra window opening correspond to that what we see on 2-2-V-1?

Ted Campbell
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Chris Johnson

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #941 on: November 11, 2014, 04:22:26 PM »

OK question is out of the current stream but is there evidence that warbirds were manufactured or patched with un painted aluminium during WW2?

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that it was a practice in the later stages of the war.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #942 on: November 11, 2014, 04:36:15 PM »

The attached photo – the night shot of the Hawaii crash – IMO, is the best view of the before “Patch” window framing that we have.  It suggests that the window frame was quite substantial and well engineered.

Perhaps Jeff Glickman can tease out the various rivet patterns that had to be taken into account when it came to designing the “Patch”.  How does the underlying engineered Electra window opening correspond to that what we see on 2-2-V-1?

Have you not seen this photo?
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #943 on: November 11, 2014, 04:45:19 PM »

OK question is out of the current stream but is there evidence that warbirds were manufactured or patched with un painted aluminium during WW2?

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that it was a practice in the later stages of the war.

Aircraft bound for Europe were unpainted in the latter part of the war.  The B-17s my father flew in late 1944 through the end of the war were unpainted except for group and squadron markings (Dad is second from the right in this photo).  Battle damage was patched with unpainted aluminum. There were probably also some unpainted aircraft serving in the Pacific.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #944 on: November 11, 2014, 04:56:55 PM »

The person who seems to be seated at some kind of control panel on the right side may be monitoring the pump controls.  Looking close, I think he may be military. A Navy Chief Petty Officer in khakis?  Sure looks like the top of a chief's hat to me.

I don't think so.  There shouldn't be any military personnel at Miami Municipal.

Ric, were there any notes, dates or other kind of documentation in the folder?  Other (better?) photographs?

There are seven photos in the collection, all apparently taken the same day.  I can't share them until we clear some copyright issues with the university.  The photo posted earlier is the only one that shows the right side if the airplane.

I'm wondering if this isn't the final fueling before departure the next morning, right after the a/c came out of the hanger with a bright, shiny new patch.

There was a test flight on Sunday, May 30.  This could be fueling for the test flight or fueling for the flight to Puerto Rico. In any case, it now seems that the patch was installed sometime late Saturday the 29th or early Sunday the 30th.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 04:59:27 PM by Ric Gillespie »
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