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Author Topic: 2-2-V-1 - patch?  (Read 1126620 times)

JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #840 on: October 29, 2014, 12:36:01 PM »

Question for Jeff regarding forming a flat piece of metal over the compound curvature. Would you start at the bottom where it was flatter and work up or start at the more curved top and work down?

Good question.  Of course none of us can know what the installer 'would' have done in 1937, but -

After drilling a few locator holes around the periphery (top, bottom and forward edges - from middle toward, but not to, the corners) and installing a few clecos to position the sheet, I'd probably tack the middle of the lower and forward rows with two or three rivets first, then careully work the top row from the middle with 3 or 4 rivets, trying to nudge the metal into the desired contour as much as possible.

As to the contour - working this flat sheet onto that skin as I envision, the aft edge (notice was last) is going to need to absorb a bit of 'surplus', e.g. 'bubble' effect: you are not going to get a great deal of 'contour' out of this as one would a hydroformed or wheel worked metal, but some effect toward that so as to make a graceful match to the bird's natural shape.  Hence one reason I've viewed the stiffeners as desirable.  I could be wrong: the installer may have simply contoured the covering in one dimension, a simple roll shape.  Given the area, that could also have been done without too much loss of aesthetic, but it's an even shorter cut in my view than what we see in 2-2-V-1 as a field effort, given the shape of that bird.  Even so, stiffeners would be needed all the more on a flat section to resist oil canning, I believe.

To help stabilize the metal into that compounded shape, I'd start working the stiffeners onto the covering and tack them much the same way, start at middle with 3 or 4 rivets / skipping to about every other hole in doing so, and would probably tack the forward ends with a fastener or two.  What we see in 2-2-V-1 are very neat rows - straight, and with rivets evenly spaced.  We also see some slight but odd convergence / divergence of these rows: as neat as they are individually, for some odd reason some converge slightly going 'aft' (as we envision the installation), and others diverge slightly.  This may be important as it suggests, to me anyway, that while care was taken to make the installation attractive, more focus was given making the metal behave in terms of where to place these stiffeners.  In any case, they do not appear - by their comparitive spacing to each other, to match a factory pattern: this is in part why 2-2-V-1 is so intriguing as to what it may just be.

Once the stiffeners were underway, I'd look at how the cover was shaping up and and start tacking the aft row - just 3 or 4 rivets, to start.  If trying to work a convex compound curve effect into this sheet, I'd evenly space about 4 fasteners and leave a slight bit of bulge between them to even suck up the surplus stock.  This 'bubble' would have been set by tacking the upper row, after having done the bottom and forward rows. 

BTW, to get an idea of what I'm trying to describe in terms of 'bubble' or contouring, lay a piece of paper on the table and tape three edges, taping the third edge so as to leave the fourth edge sticking up a bit in a slight 'bow'; then evenly tape down the fourth row to create a slight 'bubble' in the paper.  But do so gently and neatly, and note as you tape the last edge that you can effect a workman's job of 'smoothing' by gradulism what would have been one big wrinkle into a series of tiny ones; now imagine adding a few stiffening devices behind that 'bubble' so as to stablilize the shape into something a bit more graceful.  I believe that is why we can see some suggestion of slight distortion in the covering in some places, such as the Darwin photo, but would agree it's subjective and hard to say for sure. 

I would expect the aft ends of the stiffeners and the aft row - toward the aft ends, to be the last to finish.  I would expect the aft edge of the panel to have rather evenly 'absorbed' surplus metal - a very slight bowing between fasteners - not greatly noticable from a few feet away.  The overall effect should be rather clean to the eye.  This should give a very stiff membrane with reasonable restoration of strength and rigidity. 

The reasons I'd choose aft over the top, forward or bottom edges to take the last fasteners and to absorb the distortion are threefold -

1) weather dictates a tight upper joint,
2) slipstream and weather dictate a tight forward joint, and
3) the bottom row is more complex since it has a double row of staggered rivet placement, so a bit harder to work the surplus into that gracefully. 

The nature of the curves also suggests that the forward or aft edges would be the most logical to absorb the effects of trying to meet the longitudenal curve; the upper and lower edges would not be as useful for that in my view.  Aft row is the answer in my view.

I appreciate your question, and of course my 'would dos' are conjecture in this sense - I wasn't there, and I'm doing the best I can to offer some insight into the possibilities that we're looking at where this part was concerned.  It could obviously be any number of things, but the part as studied suggests some handling along these lines, as does the use of stiffeners - if it is all in fact related to the Earhart Electra's lav window.

Maybe it can also be seen why some of us are so keen on further metallurgical examination of 2-2-V-1: we may yet glean more details from her damaged state as to how she was installed, where the failure forces eminated and how they translated the full membrane in the various modes of failure that are suggested along her edges.  If it leads to the Electra, nice day; if not, we'll have learned a great deal about analysis of this sort.
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 12:39:14 PM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Dave Potratz

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #841 on: October 29, 2014, 12:49:10 PM »

2-2-V-1  reported today on Archaeology.com:
http://www.archaeology.org/news

scroll down a bit  :)
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Dan Swift

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Jerry Germann

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #843 on: October 29, 2014, 11:10:36 PM »

The line of rivets close to the edge at the top on the photo of Earhart’s plane, which I have no trouble seeing, seems to be oddly spaced from the edge, yet it fits artifact. Something that is odd and still fits is very compelling to me.   

Greg, In regard to your observation, my interest is piqued, ..could you point out the area you mentioned? .......I really enjoy your drawings , as they paint a picture of what is being discussed, and are of great help.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 11:31:35 AM by Jerry Germann »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #844 on: October 30, 2014, 12:40:28 PM »

The line of rivets close to the edge at the top on the photo of Earhart’s plane, which I have no trouble seeing, seems to be oddly spaced from the edge, yet it fits artifact. Something that is odd and still fits is very compelling to me.   

Greg, In regard to your observation, my interest is piqued, ..could you point out the area you mentioned? .......I really enjoy your drawings , as they paint a picture of what is being discussed, and are of great help.

The center rows of rivets on 2-2-V-1 are roughly equally spaced about 4” on center but the rows next to the edge have a closer spacing. I thought it was odd not to equally space all of them. Possibly the ones close to the edge have something to do with reinforcing the structure but whatever the reason, the photo of the patch has that same oddity.
The premise I was thinking about when questioning this has to do with how the artifact seemed to fail. The premise being that where there was a double row of rivets, the skin failed, and where there was a single row of 3/32” rivets, the rivets failed. (the single row of 5/32" rivets being an exception).  It seemed a patch should have double rows of rivets at the edges so that fit the artifact being a patch.

Thanks for the complement on the drawing. I use them to help ask questions and for discussion and that is their only intent. I posted the question the night before, and when I woke up realized it is likely nobody would understand a word of what I was asking, so I added a graphic I did earlier with questions annotated on it.
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« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 05:26:30 PM by Greg Daspit »
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #845 on: October 30, 2014, 02:47:09 PM »


I would expect the aft ends of the stiffeners and the aft row - toward the aft ends, to be the last to finish.  I would expect the aft edge of the panel to have rather evenly 'absorbed' surplus metal - a very slight bowing between fasteners - not greatly noticable from a few feet away. 

A very lucid explanation, Jeff, since even I could understand it!  I'm wondering, though, since I got a C in metalshop - would they have trimmed the panel more to fit after they started to attach it? Which assumes they started out with a squared-off aluminum sheet, and then discovered that there was "extra" along one or more of the edges as they got to the end of the repair. If that was the case, such trimming might have left a distinctive pattern, with a metals expert might be able to see. Which might strengthen the case for 2-2-V-1.

Or it might mean nothing at all.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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Bill Mangus

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #846 on: October 30, 2014, 03:05:34 PM »

Monty, that's a very astute thought!  You make me wonder, if the 'bubble' of aluminum is unsightly enough, would a small slit or very sharp 'V' be cut into this trailing edge to help make it lay flat?  This may account for how that edge failed.
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #847 on: October 30, 2014, 03:15:45 PM »

I think the trimming would have been done before the first rivet went in.  We're only talking about tiny increments here, not inches, to get a very slight 'bubble' effect worked into this part.  What you are really trying to avoid is having a 'flat' patch tend to 'cave in' visually and look ugly - priority number 2, right behind number 1 which is structural stability / oil can prevention (when I say 'oil can' think of the old-fashioned type that makes the 'clink-CLINK' sound when the bottom is depressed and released).

You could 'slit' paper, but not metal - it would be a natural stress riser in the form of a ready-made crack waiting to grow - and ugly.  That said, anywhere there is an irregularity you have distortions in the fastener loadings and overall load path, and could certainly load one corner or a segment of an edge of the metal such that it might induce earlier failure than in another area.  Nature abhores a vacuum, and she spends no more than she has to - a crack follows the line of least resistance.
- Jeff Neville

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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #848 on: October 30, 2014, 06:46:07 PM »

That said, anywhere there is an irregularity you have distortions in the fastener loadings and overall load path, and could certainly load one corner or a segment of an edge of the metal such that it might induce earlier failure than in another area

Trimming was a wild guess, as I said, metalshop did NOT end well for me.

But - now I think you've raised another point that is in favor of 2-2-V-1 being The Patch! TIGHAR is postulating that it was made as an expedient repair; photographic evidence shows The Patch was installed in an extremely short period of time; the guys doing it had to get it done along with a million other things ...

I can totally see a, "measure twice, cut once, beat into place" mentality taking over, especially with Earhart's well-known lack of tolerance with anything that might delay the trip or that she saw as unnecessary.  The heap of coincidences is growing taller.

LTM, who usually ends up making multiple trips to the hardware store,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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John Wallace

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Guardian news account and Slashdot
« Reply #849 on: October 30, 2014, 07:26:34 PM »

just thought I would pass these links along,
The Guardian: "Has Amelia Earhart's plane finally been found? Not so fast"
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/30/amelia-earhart-plane-finally-found-not-so-fast

also, but not sure why since it is supposed to be computer oriented, slashdot:
http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/10/30/2221201/researchers-claim-metal-patch-found-on-pacific-island-is-from-amelia-earhart
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Bessel P Sybesma

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #850 on: October 31, 2014, 01:30:21 AM »

Just for information, two of the main Dutch language newspapers in Belgium have picked up the story as well. De Morgen has a pretty good write-up of the whole story, De Standaard managed to make a mess of it, mixing up the Japanese abduction story with the Nikumaroro hypothesis - with the result of describing Nikumaroro as a Japanese island...

I notified them of the error, but more than 24 hrs later the original story has still not been corrected...
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Rodman Frowert

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #851 on: October 31, 2014, 10:41:17 AM »

I'm new here and I have enjoyed reading through this MASSIVE site.  Lots of information to be sure...

But, shouldn't TIGHAR "tap the brakes" a bit in regards to 2-2-V-1?  News organizations like this are reporting it as verified truth that this fragment came from the Electra.  Not only is the reporting terrible, but so was the press release from TIGHAR in the first place.  This fragment didn't hold up well in the early 1990's to scrutiny and honestly, it doesn't look too much better now.  Among a many hosts of issues, just the missing paint/coatings on the inside/outside of the piece really damage it's claim to be the "smoking gun".

I would think that, for Ric and TIGHAR, a repeat of the March 16 1992 press release disaster would want to be avoided at all costs.  How many times can wolf be cried?? 

At any rate, good luck with your mission and investigations.  Just wanted to voice an opinion of someone on the outside looking in.
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #852 on: October 31, 2014, 11:00:33 AM »

Welcome, Rodman - glad to see you posting.

I can appreciate your concern, but mainly to do with the media's own not-so-careful all the time efforts, which are appreciated, but sometimes make me cringe as well.  It doesn't matter what the media is told (read the release and tell me if it warrants the kind 'absolute' reporting going on that concerns you - I'd say not) - they will re-tell as they see fit.

IMO, were TIGHAR to 'tap the brakes' we'd simply confuse further, and draw headlines like 'Earhart metal fragment a bust' or similar.  Read the front page of any paper and you can find a half dozen similar migrations of thought and fact on any given day.

That's not to criticize the press, it is just to acknowledge a reality: the people who work hard to report are not expert at all that they write about, and they are stuck with hellish deadlines to comprehend and present; it's what we say against what they think they hear, all mashed up against the deadline, I think.

My own belief is that TIGHAR has done all it can do to avoid the kind of thing that happened in 1992 - nobody wants to repeat that.  At the same time, we have a very exciting prospect in 2-2-V-1 and need for people to understand its import.  If we don't, we molder in a hole here and make no progress.

I've heard 'group sourcing' mentioned by an outsider now as a source of talent that TIGHAR depends on, and believe that was an adroit comment: we depend on interest from many just like you for these things to happen.  You also never know whose experience or insight is going to bring some crucial observation to the table for consideration.  Kill that and no search happens.  Everyone who'd search for the lost flier depends on much the same thing, one way or another.  Consider in fact that this event coaxed you into your very first post...

Welcome and I hope your interest takes root.
- Jeff Neville

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Sheryl McCallister

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #853 on: October 31, 2014, 11:54:03 AM »

Imagine my surprise when The Patch made Slate's weekly news quiz, AND the 6 o'clock news on KSL (in Salt Lake City) in the same week!

Is that what's called being notorious? 

In any case, way to make news, TIGHAR researchers.
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Friend Weller

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #854 on: October 31, 2014, 12:04:26 PM »

...... AND the 6 o'clock news on KSL (in Salt Lake City)......

Dang, and here I was watching KUTV!   :D
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