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Author Topic: 2-2-V-1 - patch?  (Read 1124733 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1125 on: December 26, 2014, 11:16:29 AM »

It has even been suggested that 2-2-V-1 stands until someone can identify another source.

That's not likely to happen.  Another source must not only match the materials and rivet pattern but the aircraft had to come to grief somewhere in the Central Pacific in a way very much like we have hypothesized NR16020 met its end - and then you have to somehow get this unique piece of debris to wash up on Nikumaroro.

2-2-V-1 is not a smoking gun and does not have the potential to be a smoking gun.  It is a "preponderance of evidence" artifact.  At present the preponderance is pretty darned preponderant.   2-2-V-1 stands as highly-probable Earhart-relatd artifact unless and until someone shows that, despite all of the many aspects of the artifact that match the patch, there is some aspect of the artifact that conclusively disqualifies it as the patch.
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Jerry Germann

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1126 on: December 28, 2014, 11:36:49 PM »

In search of images relating to the patch/cover....I came across this at the Purdue site, ...Interior photos of the lavatory compartment are rare it seems , I do have one more, however; this view seems to give us a peek at the  interior side of the added window. The lavatory door is either off or open to allow a glimpse, ...I don't know that it's installation would tell us much regarding the way it was later covered, however; curiousity about how it looked beforehand compels me to search harder, in case something relevant may present itself. Would Jeff Glickman be able to remove the shadowing/ darkness in this photo, to allow a clearer look?

http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/336/rec/107

« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 07:45:23 AM by Jerry Germann »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1127 on: December 29, 2014, 08:41:00 AM »

Would Jeff Glickman be able to remove the shadowing/ darkness in this photo, to allow a clearer look?

Nice catch Jerry.  Increasing the brightness of the image in Photoshop seems to reveal the presence of a diagonal structure below the window that is not present in the standard Electra.  Is it real?  I'll ask Jeff Glickman to take a look.
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Gary Vance

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1128 on: December 29, 2014, 09:20:18 AM »

Has anyone tried to locate a high quality print or scan of this picture?  It is located on the "Official Website of Amelia Earhart".  It apparently shows the patched side of the Electra. It is in the Carole L. Osborne photo archive:

http://www.ameliaearhart.com/about/aecophoto.html

I searched Tighar.org  before I posted it, hoping to not re-post older information.  If it is already here, my apologies!

Gary


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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1129 on: December 29, 2014, 09:41:52 AM »

Has anyone tried to locate a high quality print or scan of this picture? 

Doesn't help us.  That photo was taken circa September 1936, long before the special window was installed.  The photo was probably at Floyd Bennett Field, NY prior to the start of the Bendix Trophy cross-country race.  Note the painted cowlings and the R (rather than NR) registration number on the vertical stabilizer.
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Jerry Germann

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1130 on: December 29, 2014, 11:43:43 AM »

In this critical past video , http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675063655_Amelia-Earhart-Putnam_Fred-Noonan_aircraft-takes-off_transatlantic-flight, .... one can also catch a glimpse looking out the added lavatory window at 208-210, the lavatory door seems to removed for some reason in this video and in the following attachment image below.
The lavatory interior is visible to the storage door, ..light from the added window can be seen illuminating that storage door. It also appears the toilet hopper is against the door , unable to tell what is lid of the hopper is resting against. I was wondering if the bracing or possible bracket that may be in that first image may be similar to the one mounted below the navigators table that manning is using.

 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1131 on: December 29, 2014, 11:52:40 AM »

Jerry, the link is to a video clip that does not include the shots of Manning inside the plane.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1132 on: December 29, 2014, 12:52:41 PM »

Would Jeff Glickman be able to remove the shadowing/ darkness in this photo, to allow a clearer look?

From Jeff Glickman:
"The negative that was either scanned, or printed and then scanned, was heavily scratched. The diagonal line that appears to be within the interior is most likely an emulsion scratch as it is consistent with other scratches seen in the image."
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Jerry Germann

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1133 on: December 29, 2014, 12:52:57 PM »

Jerry, the link is to a video clip that does not include the shots of Manning inside the plane.
I wasn't sure who the fellow seated at the Navigators station at around 208-212 was , ...the absence of the lavatory door seemed as if the time frame may have been closely related in all research items,....the two attachments and the video.
I was interested in the lavatory interior , as to whether it was lined as was the cabin,....seems a bulkhead is visible, along with upper bracing for the storage wall/door,... looking for stringers, but hard for me to identify them in that interior view.
Is there a bracket under the patched over window?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 12:56:38 PM by Jerry Germann »
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Randy Conrad

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1134 on: January 01, 2015, 06:57:24 PM »

Ric,

  In response to Jerry Germann's photo of Paul Manning taking navigational readings in front of the lavaratory door...it occurred to me that is it possible that the reason the lavaratory window was removed wasn't mainly because of being broken, or privacy issues...but because of weight? I know from my research that she had left items behind prior to her second attempt from the inventory list she had due to saving on fuel. So help me out on this....but how much weight taken off would make a difference in say fuel consumption. Let's say for example that Paul Manning had gone with them on this voyage...how much extra fuel would they need for him alone being on the plane? Also, I never got to see the Electra in Newton, Kansas....But, was the lavaratory in the same location as the one installed on Amelia's Lockheed Electra? Anyway, help me out on this weight thing...thanks?
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1135 on: January 02, 2015, 07:19:53 AM »

  In response to Jerry Germann's photo of Paul Manning taking navigational readings in front of the lavaratory door...it occurred to me that is it possible that the reason the lavaratory window was removed wasn't mainly because of being broken, or privacy issues...but because of weight?

Earhart's first navigator was Harry (not Paul) Manning.  I don't think the difference in weight between a window and a patch would be enough to prompt a change.
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Dave Thaker

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1136 on: January 02, 2015, 01:37:40 PM »

Ric,

How is Jeff Glickman's report on his photo analysis of 22v1 and other issues coming along?  Any chance this will be coming out soon?
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John Ousterhout

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1137 on: January 02, 2015, 01:47:46 PM »

Ric opined "I don't think the difference in weight between a window and a patch would be enough to prompt a change."
That would be true of a plexiglass window, but Manning might have demanded a distortion-free optical glass window.  The ones I've seen were quite thick and very heavy, but I don't know what was available back in the 1930's. 
It sure would be nice to find the engineering drawings of the window.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1138 on: January 02, 2015, 02:16:38 PM »

Dave et. al, keep in mind TIGHAR is not Jeff Glickman's day job. He fits it in as he can, when he can, in the midst of trying to make a living in a very arcane profession. If TIGHAR had to pay for this type of expertise, we'd still all be staring at blurry enlargements that had been photoshopped beyond all comprehension.

LTM, who says the next check is in the mail,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Diego Vásquez

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #1139 on: January 02, 2015, 11:29:09 PM »

Lehigh Testing Laboratories, Inc. was recommended to TIGHAR by Prof. Eager at MIT as the best lab for trying to learn more about 2-2-V-1 (and other aluminum artifacts) through materials analysis.  By pure coincidence, LTL is located in Wilmington Delaware about 45 minutes from TIGHAR HQ. I contacted LTL and dropped Tom Eagar's name.  They responded with enthusiasm and today we set out a program of testing that should give us the answers to a number of important questions.  Those answers could confirm our fondest conclusions about 2-2-V-1 or they could blow them out of the water....

.... I won't try to list the alphabet soup of technologies LTL will be using to do this work.   They're doing this pro bono because such is TIGHAR's reputation in the scientific community that they consider it an honor to be asked to help with our investigation. What they'll be doing represents thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of dollars worth of work if hired at commercial rates.  The results we'll get will be scientifically sound, whether or not they're what we want to hear.

Ric - Would it be possible to have LTL confirm the gauge of the aluminum?  I believe the NTSB is the only one that measured it at .032, and I think at least one of their other measurements was slightly off (the convergence of the rivet rows?).  It would be helpful to know for sure what the gauge is.  Just a suggestion.

Diego
I want to believe.

Diego V.
 
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