Malaysian Flight 370

[Mark Appel]

How well does the Bluefin's sonar work when it must stay a couple thousand feet above the bottom?  Would the resolution be good enough to make out a wing section?  Would the resolution be too poor to even see "recent signs of habitation?"

Also, what is the preferred search pattern - "mowing the lawn" back and forth, or an expanding rectangle centered on the best-guess location?

"Pattern?" Here's the preferred pattern I'd like to see... Potential Client 'A' solicits underwater sidescanning sonar search capability from Vendor 'X." Vendor X represents a service level of performance to Potential Client A. Based upon that representation and an agreed-to price, Vendor deploys said capability and it works as represented... At least most of the time.

[Ric Gillespie]

There's a lot of misinformation being bandied about in the media. (No surprise there.)
The search with the AUV is being described in such a way as to make it sound like a U.S. Navy operation. It isn't.  The Bluefin 21 is often described as a "U.S. Navy drone."  Not so.  The AUV is owned by Phoenix International Holdings of Largo, MD.  Phoenix is operating the AUV under contract to the USN.  All the Navy is doing is passing your tax dollars along to Phoenix.

[Monty Fowler]

http://www.phnx-international.com/news/Underwater_Search_for_Amelia_Earharts_Plane.pdf

Everyone has their own point of view. This made for brief but interesting reading.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

[JNev]

...and speaking of media misinformation, Mary Schiavo was busy giving 'expertise' on the ferry boat disaster in South Korea on CNN this morning...

Howzat, an IG office weenie analyzing technical mishap.  In that discussion come the now-irresistible officious undertones of "the U.S. of course will be investigating" - nonsense on foreign soil and seas, unless invited.  Has the world gone crazy?  Or is it just the media lens...

[JNev]

http://www.phnx-international.com/news/Underwater_Search_for_Amelia_Earharts_Plane.pdf

Everyone has their own point of view. This made for brief but interesting reading.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

Yep, and after reading that glowing piece, mine is "53 hours" in "8 days" - and the vendor ought to be ashamed of themselves for that. 

All told that was a $2.2M effort and I realize there were many other substantial costs, incluiding taxi and platform fares, but that got us 53 hours of look-see at a square mile of sub-sea terrain at around $41,509 per UAV hour because the thing didn't perform as expected.  A flat square mile would be around 27,878,400 square feet, and this was rough terrain, so much more - but that would also come to around 526,007 square feet scanned per hour, or 8767 square feet per minute.  In rought terrain, that suggests perhaps something less than optimal scanning of the area, at least compared to what TIGHAR had expected.

Maybe what the U.S.N. is funneling out of our pockets and into that effort in the Indian Ocean will further refine the thing, but 'Bluefin' still seems a little blue in the face as the race heats up.  Tough environment, I know - and I guess we take what the world has to offer in technology for reaching hard to reach areas.

If the airliner is even down there... and I really have to wonder, is this really the best resource the U.S.N. could muster?   Don't get me started... now where's that foil hat...  ::)

[Mark Appel]

http://www.phnx-international.com/news/Underwater_Search_for_Amelia_Earharts_Plane.pdf

Everyone has their own point of view. This made for brief but interesting reading.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

Yep, and after reading that glowing piece, mine is "53 hours" in "8 days" - and the vendor ought to be ashamed of themselves for that. 

All told that was a $2.2M effort and I realize there were many other substantial costs, incluiding taxi and platform fares, but that got us 53 hours of look-see at a square mile of sub-sea terrain at around $41,509 per UAV hour because the thing didn't perform as expected.  A flat square mile would be around 27,878,400 square feet, and this was rough terrain, so much more - but that would also come to around 526,007 square feet scanned per hour, or 8767 square feet per minute.  In rought terrain, that suggests perhaps something less than optimal scanning of the area, at least compared to what TIGHAR had expected.

Maybe what the U.S.N. is funneling out of our pockets and into that effort in the Indian Ocean will further refine the thing, but 'Bluefin' still seems a little blue in the face as the race heats up.  Tough environment, I know - and I guess we take what the world has to offer in technology for reaching hard to reach areas.

If the airliner is even down there... and I really have to wonder, is this really the best resource the U.S.N. could muster?   Don't get me started... now where's that foil hat...  ::)

I was thinking the same thing, Jeff. That is, where the hell is the U.S. Navy in all of this? I mean aside from hiring contractors... Now, given the international aspect of the search, maybe this is an appropriate level of involvement for them. But I was thinking more in terms of technical capability.

SEAWOLF and VIRGINIA class attack subs have on-board side scanning systems, deployable in vehicles similar to the notorious Bluefin. Not to mention of course, passive sonar sensors up the ying-yang (nautical term).

[JNev]

http://www.phnx-international.com/news/Underwater_Search_for_Amelia_Earharts_Plane.pdf

Everyone has their own point of view. This made for brief but interesting reading.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

Yep, and after reading that glowing piece, mine is "53 hours" in "8 days" - and the vendor ought to be ashamed of themselves for that. 

All told that was a $2.2M effort and I realize there were many other substantial costs, incluiding taxi and platform fares, but that got us 53 hours of look-see at a square mile of sub-sea terrain at around $41,509 per UAV hour because the thing didn't perform as expected.  A flat square mile would be around 27,878,400 square feet, and this was rough terrain, so much more - but that would also come to around 526,007 square feet scanned per hour, or 8767 square feet per minute.  In rought terrain, that suggests perhaps something less than optimal scanning of the area, at least compared to what TIGHAR had expected.

Maybe what the U.S.N. is funneling out of our pockets and into that effort in the Indian Ocean will further refine the thing, but 'Bluefin' still seems a little blue in the face as the race heats up.  Tough environment, I know - and I guess we take what the world has to offer in technology for reaching hard to reach areas.

If the airliner is even down there... and I really have to wonder, is this really the best resource the U.S.N. could muster?   Don't get me started... now where's that foil hat...  ::)

I was thinking the same thing, Jeff. That is, where the hell is the U.S. Navy in all of this? I mean aside from hiring contractors... Now, given the international aspect of the search, maybe this is an appropriate level of involvement for them. But I was thinking more in terms of technical capability.

SEAWOLF and VIRGINIA class attack subs have on-board side scanning systems, deployable in vehicles similar to the notorious Bluefin. Not to mention of course, passive sonar sensors up the ying-yang (nautical term).

Well, most here know what I tend to think about flight 370...

The big dogs that don't bark sometimes reveal the most about where the fox has not been. 

I won't be surprised if this one just 'ran out of time' and winds up never found... it's a very large and strange world with some deep holes - in just the right places it seems.

[Mark Appel]

...it's a very large and strange world with some deep holes - in just the right places it seems...

Indeed. We tend to kid ourselves that world has shrunk to the point nothing can hide...tain't true.

[Jeff Victor Hayden]

Malaysia MH370: No trace yet after two-thirds of sub's scan

Again, very reminiscent of Air France AF-447 which took 2 years of unsuccessful searching and scanning in four separate phases.

https://www.informs.org/ORMS-Today/Public-Articles/August-Volume-38-Number-4/In-Search-of-Air-France-Flight-447

[JNev]

Malaysia MH370: No trace yet after two-thirds of sub's scan

Again, very reminiscent of Air France AF-447 which took 2 years of unsuccessful searching and scanning in four separate phases.

https://www.informs.org/ORMS-Today/Public-Articles/August-Volume-38-Number-4/In-Search-of-Air-France-Flight-447

That's good perspective, Jeff Victor, thanks.  It is a tough environment, and one hopes all us who don tin foil sleeping caps in our sleep are just plain wrong, of course... ;)

[Ken Nielsen]

BREAKING NEWS: Pieces of wreckage from MH370 may have washed ashore in Western Australia, including one which is 'length of a car with distinct rivets in it'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2611137/Have-MH370-parts-washed-ashore-Western-Australia-examine-unidentified-material-links-missing-Malaysian-plane.html#ixzz2zi9m4rKg
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[JNev]

Now there would be a break.

[Mark Appel]

BREAKING NEWS: Pieces of wreckage from MH370 may have washed ashore in Western Australia, including one which is 'length of a car with distinct rivets in it'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2611137/Have-MH370-parts-washed-ashore-Western-Australia-examine-unidentified-material-links-missing-Malaysian-plane.html#ixzz2zi9m4rKg
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

How many times have heard a variation on this? How many times have we heard descriptions of large pieces of aluminum floating? My Spidey senses not buyin' it...

[JNev]

Rest assured, the Australian authorities are already damping expectations - it's not credibly believed to be part of the 777.

Sad, seems we still have no material clue - not one bobbing seat cushion found in all that surveillance...

[Mark Appel]

Rest assured, the Australian authorities are already damping expectations - it's not credibly believed to be part of the 777.

Sad, seems we still have no material clue - not one bobbing seat cushion found in all that surveillance...

Nope. Nuttin'. Nada. The Empty Set. It does seem so intuitive that something buoyant would pop up. Only underscores our tendency to underestimate the vastness of the oceans... I did hear that someone in the search or pundit communities has speculated about doing a total reset on the search, from A-Z...