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Author Topic: The Question of 2-2-V-1  (Read 1042210 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #930 on: May 01, 2014, 07:01:23 AM »

The really curious thing is the almost random pitch of 5/32 holes.  Seems like the placement of those rivets must have dictated by features in the underlying structure (i.e. components installed on the structure or damage to the structure).  The impression you get is of a very well executed (factory quality) replacement of skin to an area that was damaged not quite badly enough to require replacement of the underlying structure.
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Doug Ledlie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #931 on: May 01, 2014, 07:54:01 AM »

Quote
there is some variation in the lines of rivet holes suggesting that the underlying structural members were not jig-straight (as they should be if it was undamaged original construction). 

We should probably qualify expectations for "straight"

Consider that original build rivet lines may only by "straight-ish" right from day one, given construction methods of the day ie a stringer may be dead straight but the rivets attaching to it will always be subject to tolerance in placement when humans are doing the work.

Interior shots of Atka B-24 appear to confirm rivet lines as straight-ish only in an apparently original and undistorted section of the airframe
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Kevin Weeks

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #932 on: May 01, 2014, 08:16:29 AM »

The really curious thing is the almost random pitch of 5/32 holes.  Seems like the placement of those rivets must have dictated by features in the underlying structure (i.e. components installed on the structure or damage to the structure).  The impression you get is of a very well executed (factory quality) replacement of skin to an area that was damaged not quite badly enough to require replacement of the underlying structure.

it is my understanding that these 5/32 holes are only in the section of the material with the jagged saw tooth marks along its edge?? is that correct or is there another line of 5/32??

if they are only along the jagged edge I would hazard a guess that these holes may have seen a more local deformation in the aluminum indicated by the tear along the line of rivets.

as I have stated before, there can only be a certain amount of deformation before the material fails. I looked it up before, and I believe it was something like 10%?? I'd have to review my earlier posts.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 08:20:35 AM by Kevin Weeks »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #933 on: May 01, 2014, 08:45:55 AM »

Anywhere which would have affected the planes flight characteristics, wings, vertical stabiliser, tailplane etc... would have required a perfect repair, yes?

I don't know that that's true.  I'm not aware that the standards for an acceptable, legal repair vary according to the location on the aircraft.   All parts of the airframe affect its flight characteristics.  I'd like an opinion from someone who has actually repaired airplanes.  Jeff Neville?  How say ye?
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #934 on: May 01, 2014, 08:49:52 AM »

it is my understanding that these 5/32 holes are only in the section of the material with the jagged saw tooth marks along its edge?? is that correct or is there another line of 5/32??

if they are only along the jagged edge I would hazard a guess that these holes may have seen a more local deformation in the aluminum indicated by the tear along the line of rivets.

If you'll look at the photos you'll see that there is only one line of 5/32 holes (along the saw-toothed edge) and that the variation in pitch is clearly not a function of deformation.
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Dale O. Beethe

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #935 on: May 01, 2014, 09:02:54 AM »

I'm certainly no expert on airplane construction (or much else, for that matter) but if the rivet lines are parellel, it gives me the impression of wing construction more than fuselage construction.  Is that at all valid?
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Kevin Weeks

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #936 on: May 01, 2014, 09:03:29 AM »

it is my understanding that these 5/32 holes are only in the section of the material with the jagged saw tooth marks along its edge?? is that correct or is there another line of 5/32??

if they are only along the jagged edge I would hazard a guess that these holes may have seen a more local deformation in the aluminum indicated by the tear along the line of rivets.

If you'll look at the photos you'll see that there is only one line of 5/32 holes (along the saw-toothed edge) and that the variation in pitch is clearly not a function of deformation.

I did look at the photos of the piece. It is not clear to me just by looking at them the level of deformation in that area. can you plot out the variation of the holes to tell whether they are out more than 10%?? Just the fact that the failure mode in this area appears to be different than other areas makes me think there could be considerably more stress placed upon that section.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #937 on: May 01, 2014, 09:09:18 AM »

I'm certainly no expert on airplane construction (or much else, for that matter) but if the rivet lines are parellel, it gives me the impression of wing construction more than fuselage construction.  Is that at all valid?

Yes, it's valid.  Parallel lines of rivets are quite common in wing construction but they also occur in fuselage construction.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #938 on: May 01, 2014, 09:24:51 AM »

can you plot out the variation of the holes to tell whether they are out more than 10%??

You tell me.  I've put red dots where 5/32 rivet holes appear to have been present.
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Kevin Weeks

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #939 on: May 01, 2014, 10:28:08 AM »

can you plot out the variation of the holes to tell whether they are out more than 10%??

You tell me.  I've put red dots where 5/32 rivet holes appear to have been present.

ok, obviously this is all conjecture. The line of rivets appears to curve slightly. is this a function of the angle of the picture or the stretching of the material. it would appear to be stretched material as the ends tore at the first line of rivets where the middle tore beyond that at the second line. this would cause the curve I am seeing. about to play connect the dots now...

what is the actual center to center distance of the last two holes you have plotted so that I may determine scale??
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 10:30:46 AM by Kevin Weeks »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #940 on: May 01, 2014, 10:55:45 AM »

what is the actual center to center distance of the last two holes you have plotted so that I may determine scale??

This should help.

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Jay Burkett

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #941 on: May 01, 2014, 12:06:48 PM »

Ric,  This may have been a case of the mechanic having to lay on his back to drill the holes and install these rivets.  If you have ever done this you know that it is not easy.  It may be that the end fasteners were installed first and then a fastener in the middle of the row was installed, but, in the wrong place.  The remaining fasteners were then located to approximate a somewhat smooth curve "by eye".  Just a guess.  It might have been that since that piece of aluminum was cut and partially installed that someone just decided to let the ragged line of rivets stay "as is" rather than take the time to fabricate a new skin.  It might have been just to save the cost.  If that one fasterner was out of place, to make it perfect the stringer, or mating structural member, would have also had to be repaired or replaced.  That could have been a much larger, and longer, job.

I have seen a lot of skin repairs that did not end up looking as clean and orderly as the repair sketch.  Sometimes it takes a lot imagination to make yourself believe that the two are supposed to be the same!  After all, this piece was (we believe) on the bottom of the aircraft:  Who would have seen it anyway (besides us!)?
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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #942 on: May 01, 2014, 12:08:31 PM »

Anywhere which would have affected the planes flight characteristics, wings, vertical stabiliser, tailplane etc... would have required a perfect repair, yes?

I don't know that that's true.  I'm not aware that the standards for an acceptable, legal repair vary according to the location on the aircraft.   All parts of the airframe affect its flight characteristics.  I'd like an opinion from someone who has actually repaired airplanes.  Jeff Neville?  How say ye?

A common standard is that which meets original strength and stiffness ("or exceeds" is sometimes thrown in, but that's actually not what the standard says).  So that is the general goal for a repair.

And Jeff Victor makes a good distinction where flight characteristics are concerned - one must use extra care where control surfaces and airfoils are concerned due to considerations of balance, flutter, buffet and resistance to bending (maintaining aero rigidity) etc.

Nothing in particular on 2-2-V-1 puts that out of the question, except some suggestion that more care to restore 'to original' would 'likely' be exercised if this were from a control surface, and I doubt we'd see so many odd-sized holes in that critical an area.  A wing panel - especially the lower surface (which is the less critical to airfoil effectiveness) might well receive a slightly bastardized patch, installed with some minor license.  Rivets would not be pitched further apart, but there could be reason to tighten a pattern (more rivets per square inch), even though it could be argued that adds toward "or exceeds" in terms of strength and rigidity.

I would not be surprised to find this as a somewhat inspired adaptation to lend relative smoothness and web strength back into a deformed are of belly skin - including perhaps a wing under-surface.  Although the remaining rivet length may preclude the idea, I also still wonder about it having been a last-minute tidy-up of a wrinkled skin area that could have gone either way (removal, or straighten and leave in place with rivets replaced due to having been stressed), aka a 'scab' patch.  Not a hugely popular approach - and perhaps not even likely, but possible.

It is pure speculation on my part, but part of that wonderment is the circumstances of the repair and the presence and fussiness of the airplane's owner - there seems to have been a conflict of available time and fairly high expectations.  A wrinkled-but-straightened area might have been sound enough, but not pretty as it bore evidence of the mishap; there may have been little time to excise the offending area for replacement - but a reasonable cover might have been installed with little investment of time.  The intent could have been a full replacement at a later date.

Like I said, speculation - and of the photos we have, the work I can make out looks well accomplished.  I am also not talking about 'shoddy' here, just a slight improvising.

None of which explains fully the difference in pitch, nor line spacing, that we see - necessarily.  Problem there is we don't really know for certain what NR16020 was really like in all areas, although museum birds give the best guess we can have for now.

Wherever it came from, it doesn't readily fit the warbirds I just saw - not only is the spacing of rows wrong, but the whole scheme of it screams 'lighter airframe' than anything I saw in Dayton.

One thing to remember - there are no 'perfect' repairs - by definition they tend to carry some notable, if minor mostly, deviations from original installations.  Even new skins on a control surface have to deal with sub-structure that may be slightly altered in some ways, even an occasional over-sized fastener - but that should be kept to a minimum.
- Jeff Neville

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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #943 on: May 01, 2014, 12:13:26 PM »

Ric,  This may have been a case of the mechanic having to lay on his back to drill the holes and install these rivets.  If you have ever done this you know that it is not easy.  It may be that the end fasteners were installed first and then a fastener in the middle of the row was installed, but, in the wrong place.  The remaining fasteners were then located to approximate a somewhat smooth curve "by eye".  Just a guess.  It might have been that since that piece of aluminum was cut and partially installed that someone just decided to let the ragged line of rivets stay "as is" rather than take the time to fabricate a new skin.  It might have been just to save the cost.  If that one fasterner was out of place, to make it perfect the stringer, or mating structural member, would have also had to be repaired or replaced.  That could have been a much larger, and longer, job.

I have seen a lot of skin repairs that did not end up looking as clean and orderly as the repair sketch.  Sometimes it takes a lot imagination to make yourself believe that the two are supposed to be the same!  After all, this piece was (we believe) on the bottom of the aircraft:  Who would have seen it anyway (besides us!)?

Worse than laying on one's back, look at the plane on sawhorses and think about working that belly skin from a sitting or kneeling position.  I've found it much harder to do that than when laying on a creeper, in fact: the neck is constantly craned, the arms tire from drilling up and everything you must look at for alignment is skewed from direct vision and when drilled, done by fatigued arms.

Laying flat allows a more relaxed, direct view of the work, and the arms are not so 'cantelevered'.

So you make a great point - and I believe it is somewhat compounded by how the airplane was actually positioned on sawhorses.
- Jeff Neville

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Jerry Germann

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« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 01:24:48 PM by Jerry Germann »
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