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Author Topic: The Question of 2-2-V-1  (Read 1023234 times)

Steve Lee

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #825 on: April 02, 2014, 08:48:30 PM »

I thought that, rather than look a markings on well-dated Alclad in photos, which are somewhat scarce, I’d take a look at the appearance of the terms ‘24S-T’ and 24S-T3’ in the technical literature.  The NACA digital library lists some 8000 papers published between 1917 and 1958.  About 30 of these papers have ‘24S-T’ in their titles, the earliest dated 1936 and the latest dated 1949.  The earliest ’24S-T3’ title I see is a paper published in 1950, and there are another 6 or so dated between 1950 and 1958.  This suggests that the it wasn’t until some time around 1950 that the designation ‘24S-T3’  began to appear.

The fuselage modifications on Electra  c/n 1015 that we see in Matching the Markings are marked ‘ALCLAD 24S T3’,  so the chronology of appearance of 'T3' in the NACA titles suggests that the modifications to c/n 1015 were made no earlier than about 1950.

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Steve Lee

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #826 on: April 02, 2014, 09:30:38 PM »

The sans serif typeface is on #1052. Original, replacement, or otherwise.
But Mark, important point: it’s not originalits a modification, a ‘later visitor’ to c/n 1052.  And we don’t know when it was added to c/n 1052.  Unless someone can tell us that modification was pre-war, it doesn’t tell us anything about font styles on pre-war Alclad. And since that piece of Alclad has the ‘AN-A-13’ military specification, I suspect that it is a 1941 (or later) modification.

...it's "associated" with a pre-war aircraft.
By that logic if I took my 5 year old niece to see c/n 1052, and she sat in the cockpit, she would be ‘associated with’ c/n 1052, and thus you would consider her to be a good source of information about what it was like to be a child during the depression.

In fact, you may ignore anything I've said except for, "we clearly haven't fully characterized the typographic labeling variations and permutations on aircraft aluminum c 1935-1945."

Rather than worrying about whether we need to fully characterize the typographic labeling variations and permutations on aircraft aluminum c 1935-1945, someone needs to find a sans serif font with AD on a definitively pre-war piece of Alclad?

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Mark Appel

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #827 on: April 03, 2014, 12:29:20 AM »

The sans serif typeface is on #1052. Original, replacement, or otherwise.
But Mark, important point: it’s not originalits a modification, a ‘later visitor’ to c/n 1052.  And we don’t know when it was added to c/n 1052.  Unless someone can tell us that modification was pre-war, it doesn’t tell us anything about font styles on pre-war Alclad. And since that piece of Alclad has the ‘AN-A-13’ military specification, I suspect that it is a 1941 (or later) modification.

...it's "associated" with a pre-war aircraft.
By that logic if I took my 5 year old niece to see c/n 1052, and she sat in the cockpit, she would be ‘associated with’ c/n 1052, and thus you would consider her to be a good source of information about what it was like to be a child during the depression.

In fact, you may ignore anything I've said except for, "we clearly haven't fully characterized the typographic labeling variations and permutations on aircraft aluminum c 1935-1945."

Rather than worrying about whether we need to fully characterize the typographic labeling variations and permutations on aircraft aluminum c 1935-1945, someone needs to find a sans serif font with AD on a definitively pre-war piece of Alclad?

Okey dokey... I presume you'd know exactly when your lovely 5 year old niece visited #1052 and whether she was riveted in place. But by your own admission, we "don't know" when the actuator door was modified. You "suspect" it is a 1941 or later modification.

Despite your strange and repeated insistence to the contrary, I have consistently said I make no definitive claims about anything related to this issue. You seem to be a lot more certain about speculative claims than I. Well, I agree with you. We don't know. And your suspicions are not definitive.

I trust we've exhausted this subject until better information emerges...

"Credibility is Everything"
 
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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #828 on: April 03, 2014, 06:22:23 AM »

I thought that, rather than look a markings on well-dated Alclad in photos, which are somewhat scarce, I’d take a look at the appearance of the terms ‘24S-T’ and 24S-T3’ in the technical literature.  The NACA digital library lists some 8000 papers published between 1917 and 1958.  About 30 of these papers have ‘24S-T’ in their titles, the earliest dated 1936 and the latest dated 1949.  The earliest ’24S-T3’ title I see is a paper published in 1950, and there are another 6 or so dated between 1950 and 1958.  This suggests that the it wasn’t until some time around 1950 that the designation ‘24S-T3’  began to appear.

The fuselage modifications on Electra  c/n 1015 that we see in Matching the Markings are marked ‘ALCLAD 24S T3’,  so the chronology of appearance of 'T3' in the NACA titles suggests that the modifications to c/n 1015 were made no earlier than about 1950.

Suggests... but far from a definitive answer.

Two points -

- What is known as "T3" (solution heat treated and then cold worked) has been with us since far earlier than "1950", and
- Titles of technical papers hardly define what is likely to be found on production material where such processes were in existance.

There are definitely shifting terms and I believe "T3" did replace an earlier "ST" designation at some point.

As to 2-2-V-1, I am far from satisfied that we as-yet have a fully definitive picture of just what characters are really there; my belief is that more information is 'in there', if it can be teased out by hyperspectral analysis or some other means.  So while I could cautiously observe that we have some interesting characters to look at so far, I'm not certain that we're seeing a full definition of the original characters, or that others don't still exist that still evade the human eye.  I certainly do not as-yet see "T3" or any characters other than a tell-tale "A" and "D" on the artifact.

So thanks for the research and "suggestion", which I simply find far from conclusive. I hardly see it as grounds to dismiss 2-2-V-1 (which is clearly your intent, no need to bandy words over that).
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 06:34:50 AM by Jeffrey Neville »
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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #829 on: April 03, 2014, 06:32:24 AM »

The sans serif typeface is on #1052. Original, replacement, or otherwise.
But Mark, important point: it’s not originalits a modification, a ‘later visitor’ to c/n 1052.  And we don’t know when it was added to c/n 1052.  Unless someone can tell us that modification was pre-war, it doesn’t tell us anything about font styles on pre-war Alclad. And since that piece of Alclad has the ‘AN-A-13’ military specification, I suspect that it is a 1941 (or later) modification.

...it's "associated" with a pre-war aircraft.
By that logic if I took my 5 year old niece to see c/n 1052, and she sat in the cockpit, she would be ‘associated with’ c/n 1052, and thus you would consider her to be a good source of information about what it was like to be a child during the depression.

...and by your having done so, one might also think you had a sincere interest in opening a child's eyes to open-minded exploration rather than one more bent on conclusory argument for its own sake.

Quote
In fact, you may ignore anything I've said except for, "we clearly haven't fully characterized the typographic labeling variations and permutations on aircraft aluminum c 1935-1945."

Rather than worrying about whether we need to fully characterize the typographic labeling variations and permutations on aircraft aluminum c 1935-1945, someone needs to find a sans serif font with AD on a definitively pre-war piece of Alclad?

That would be one hoped-for product of the very exploration Mark Appel has spoken of, don't you think?  Back to 'variations' - which some of us have seen quite a bit of now - and perhaps the "definitively pre-war piece of Alclad" that matches 2-2-V-1 can be found after we've definitively identified all that can be told by that artifact, and more thoroughly examined the field.

I remain more amazed than ever at the energy going into these 'conclusory argument' efforts - you must be a lawyer.  ;)
- Jeff Neville

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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #830 on: April 03, 2014, 08:26:07 AM »


Thanks Steve, but I specifically refrained from suggesting the markings on 1052 "proved" anything. I said it was "interesting" and still think so. I am fully aware it may be a replacement piece. In any event we now appear to have other examples of sans serif italicized fonts used prior to WWII and serif roman fonts in WWII. We also have examples that fit somewhere between, design-wise.

These are interesting data points, but we are far from being able to say anything definitive or exclusive about font styles vs time periods yet. Clearly, when it comes to this issue, we literally haven't even counted all the variables...

... I don't even know if one can divide the font styles into the arbitrary categories "Pre War" and "WWII." I made those terms up. I do think it's interesting that examples of a variety of font styles and sub-styles is emerging. Some seem to be associated with pre-war and some seem to be associated with WWII.

The sans serif typeface is on #1052. Original, replacement, or otherwise. It's there. That's a fact. Therefore it's "associated" with a pre-war aircraft. So that's "interesting" to me. The Enola Gay example seems to represent a reversion to any earlier sub-style. But I ain't claimin' any of that to be "true." Only "interesting." And "as best as we can tell," while true, is not definitive.

In fact, you may ignore anything I've said except for, "we clearly haven't fully characterized the typographic labeling variations and permutations on aircraft aluminum c 1935-1945."


Mark, I find it "interesting" that we can now study photographs showing Alclad labels that are without question from the Pre-War period.  Of course we have to keep an eye out for 'design nuances' and 'variability' you and others properly identify are important factors in the big picture here.  Maybe we can find the Pre-War fonts fit a pattern, or have things in common with War era fonts.  Maybe they don't.  I also find it interesting that no one has yet found an example of a sans-serif font, 'close to' or 'similar' to the one seen on 2-2-V-1 that is without question Pre-War.  It's worth remembering what Ric stated earlier-

"All we have are the letters AD in the same font used on aluminum that bears the AN-A-13 designation. We do not know that this was the first or only time that ALCOA used that font. How many pre-war aircraft have we looked at to see what the labeling looked like?
http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1426.msg30892.html#msg30892

Good question.  Were any labels we have not seen before - from any time period - photographed during the trip to Dayton?  I've put together the images below to make it easier to compare some labeling.  Let's build a detailed data-base showing "...variations and permutations on aircraft aluminum c 1935-1945."

Photos that are without question Pre-War;
 
1) Douglas TBD Devastator -  ca. 1937-1939 [from Steve Lee.]

2) Cal-Tech photograph- ca. 1938 [from Hal Beck.]

3) Seversky P-35- ca. 1937-1938 [Kevin Weeks]

4) Amelia's Earhart's Lockheed L-10E - 1936 [Greg Daspit]


Labeling on flap actuator cover, Lockheed Electra cn 1052.
[Matches half inch font on 2-2-V-1.  Includes the War period spec. "AN-A-13"]


Labeling on fuselage modifications, Lockheed cn 1015
[Also matches font seen on 2-2-V-1, and includes the War period spec. "AN-A-13"]


Ca. 1939 Douglas TBD Devastator


1938 Cal-Tech


Ca. 1938 Seversky P-35


Amelia Earhart's L-10E, 1936

http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1426.msg31086.html#msg31086
Link to Jerry Germann's photo of the L-10E

« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 09:51:06 AM by Mark Pearce »
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Mark Appel

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #831 on: April 03, 2014, 10:32:34 AM »


Thanks Steve, but I specifically refrained from suggesting the markings on 1052 "proved" anything. I said it was "interesting" and still think so. I am fully aware it may be a replacement piece. In any event we now appear to have other examples of sans serif italicized fonts used prior to WWII and serif roman fonts in WWII. We also have examples that fit somewhere between, design-wise.

These are interesting data points, but we are far from being able to say anything definitive or exclusive about font styles vs time periods yet. Clearly, when it comes to this issue, we literally haven't even counted all the variables...

... I don't even know if one can divide the font styles into the arbitrary categories "Pre War" and "WWII." I made those terms up. I do think it's interesting that examples of a variety of font styles and sub-styles is emerging. Some seem to be associated with pre-war and some seem to be associated with WWII.

The sans serif typeface is on #1052. Original, replacement, or otherwise. It's there. That's a fact. Therefore it's "associated" with a pre-war aircraft. So that's "interesting" to me. The Enola Gay example seems to represent a reversion to any earlier sub-style. But I ain't claimin' any of that to be "true." Only "interesting." And "as best as we can tell," while true, is not definitive.

In fact, you may ignore anything I've said except for, "we clearly haven't fully characterized the typographic labeling variations and permutations on aircraft aluminum c 1935-1945."


Mark, I find it "interesting" that we can now study photographs showing Alclad labels that are without question from the Pre-War period.  Of course we have to keep an eye out for 'design nuances' and 'variability' you and others properly identify are important factors in the big picture here.  Maybe we can find the Pre-War fonts fit a pattern, or have things in common with War era fonts.  Maybe they don't.  I also find it interesting that no one has yet found an example of a sans-serif font, 'close to' or 'similar' to the one seen on 2-2-V-1 that is without question Pre-War.  It's worth remembering what Ric stated earlier-

"All we have are the letters AD in the same font used on aluminum that bears the AN-A-13 designation. We do not know that this was the first or only time that ALCOA used that font. How many pre-war aircraft have we looked at to see what the labeling looked like?
http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1426.msg30892.html#msg30892

Good question.  Were any labels we have not seen before - from any time period - photographed during the trip to Dayton?  I've put together the images below to make it easier to compare some labeling.  Let's build a detailed data-base showing "...variations and permutations on aircraft aluminum c 1935-1945."

Photos that are without question Pre-War;
 
1) Douglas TBD Devastator -  ca. 1937-1939 [from Steve Lee.]

2) Cal-Tech photograph- ca. 1938 [from Hal Beck.]

3) Seversky P-35- ca. 1937-1938 [Kevin Weeks]

4) Amelia's Earhart's Lockheed L-10E - 1936 [Greg Daspit]


Labeling on flap actuator cover, Lockheed Electra cn 1052.
[Matches half inch font on 2-2-V-1.  Includes the War period spec. "AN-A-13"]


Labeling on fuselage modifications, Lockheed cn 1015
[Also matches font seen on 2-2-V-1, and includes the War period spec. "AN-A-13"]


Ca. 1939 Douglas TBD Devastator


1938 Cal-Tech


Ca. 1938 Seversky P-35


Amelia Earhart's L-10E, 1936

http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1426.msg31086.html#msg31086
Link to Jerry Germann's photo of the L-10E


Thanks for your diligence, Mark. Good work and as you point out, lots more left to do...
"Credibility is Everything"
 
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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #832 on: April 03, 2014, 01:04:54 PM »



I thought that, rather than look a markings on well-dated Alclad in photos, which are somewhat scarce, I’d take a look at the appearance of the terms ‘24S-T’ and 24S-T3’ in the technical literature.  The NACA digital library lists some 8000 papers published between 1917 and 1958.  About 30 of these papers have ‘24S-T’ in their titles, the earliest dated 1936 and the latest dated 1949.  The earliest ’24S-T3’ title I see is a paper published in 1950, and there are another 6 or so dated between 1950 and 1958.  This suggests that the it wasn’t until some time around 1950 that the designation ‘24S-T3’  began to appear.

The fuselage modifications on Electra  c/n 1015 that we see in Matching the Markings are marked ‘ALCLAD 24S T3’,  so the chronology of appearance of 'T3' in the NACA titles suggests that the modifications to c/n 1015 were made no earlier than about 1950.

Suggests... but far from a definitive answer.

Two points -

- What is known as "T3" (solution heat treated and then cold worked) has been with us since far earlier than "1950", and
- Titles of technical papers hardly define what is likely to be found on production material where such processes were in existance.

There are definitely shifting terms and I believe "T3" did replace an earlier "ST" designation at some point.

As to 2-2-V-1, I am far from satisfied that we as-yet have a fully definitive picture of just what characters are really there; my belief is that more information is 'in there', if it can be teased out by hyperspectral analysis or some other means.  So while I could cautiously observe that we have some interesting characters to look at so far, I'm not certain that we're seeing a full definition of the original characters, or that others don't still exist that still evade the human eye.  I certainly do not as-yet see "T3" or any characters other than a tell-tale "A" and "D" on the artifact.

So thanks for the research and "suggestion", which I simply find far from conclusive. I hardly see it as grounds to dismiss 2-2-V-1 (which is clearly your intent, no need to bandy words over that).

I agree with Steve -  it's worth looking into the history of the 'T3' temper- maybe it will be found on 2-2-V-1... 

...and 'T3' does appear to date to around 1950 Jeff, not "far earlier."

The 1941 edition of "Aircraft Materials and Processes" by George Titterton makes no mention of the T3 temper for Alclad sheet.  It does cover Alclad 24ST and Alclad 24SRT [...and 'un-clad' 24SO, 24ST and 24SRT.]

There is no mention of T3 in the 1947 edition of the same book-
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89090519661;view=1up;seq=11

The T3 temper is discussed in the 1951 edition, and in the 1956 edition - page 148
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89045771615;view=1up;seq=8

T3 is also described in the 1950 edition of "Alcoa Aluminum and its Alloys." See page 16.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89083894923;view=1up;seq=24


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Douglas Gerdin

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #833 on: April 03, 2014, 02:04:38 PM »


It may no be likely to exist, but has TIGHAR tracked down any other plane repaired or built at the Lockheed facility back in March of 1937? If we assume that the Lockheed facility was using aluminum stock they had on hand, there might be some opportunity to match the material in 2-2-V-1 either metalurgically or by comparing the font.

I'm a long time lurker and I have such great respect for the people who contribute to this forum that up until this point, I haven't felt the need to offer anything into this discussion. I apologize if someone else has suggested this and I missed it.

- Douglas Gerdin

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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #834 on: April 03, 2014, 02:47:12 PM »



I thought that, rather than look a markings on well-dated Alclad in photos, which are somewhat scarce, I’d take a look at the appearance of the terms ‘24S-T’ and 24S-T3’ in the technical literature.  The NACA digital library lists some 8000 papers published between 1917 and 1958.  About 30 of these papers have ‘24S-T’ in their titles, the earliest dated 1936 and the latest dated 1949.  The earliest ’24S-T3’ title I see is a paper published in 1950, and there are another 6 or so dated between 1950 and 1958.  This suggests that the it wasn’t until some time around 1950 that the designation ‘24S-T3’  began to appear.

The fuselage modifications on Electra  c/n 1015 that we see in Matching the Markings are marked ‘ALCLAD 24S T3’,  so the chronology of appearance of 'T3' in the NACA titles suggests that the modifications to c/n 1015 were made no earlier than about 1950.

Suggests... but far from a definitive answer.

Two points -

- What is known as "T3" (solution heat treated and then cold worked) has been with us since far earlier than "1950", and
- Titles of technical papers hardly define what is likely to be found on production material where such processes were in existance.

There are definitely shifting terms and I believe "T3" did replace an earlier "ST" designation at some point.

As to 2-2-V-1, I am far from satisfied that we as-yet have a fully definitive picture of just what characters are really there; my belief is that more information is 'in there', if it can be teased out by hyperspectral analysis or some other means.  So while I could cautiously observe that we have some interesting characters to look at so far, I'm not certain that we're seeing a full definition of the original characters, or that others don't still exist that still evade the human eye.  I certainly do not as-yet see "T3" or any characters other than a tell-tale "A" and "D" on the artifact.

So thanks for the research and "suggestion", which I simply find far from conclusive. I hardly see it as grounds to dismiss 2-2-V-1 (which is clearly your intent, no need to bandy words over that).

I agree with Steve -  it's worth looking into the history of the 'T3' temper- maybe it will be found on 2-2-V-1... 

...and 'T3' does appear to date to around 1950 Jeff, not "far earlier."

Please read again - you've missed my meaning, which was that the actual hardening technique predates the change in designation to "T3", at least in my understanding, i.e. that an aluminum product could be "solution heat treated and then cold worked" has been true much longer, I believe, and therefore the change in designation as would appear in the titles of technical reports is not itself very telling of anything.  That is why I asked Steve about whether he had investigated the content of those reports, not just scanned titles.

To this end, page 148 of the second of the three reports you cited clarifies what I've suggested by a discussion of what "T3" is - it can be seen that not only was 24S-T or whatever form it took (we're speaking of the same material: 2024 sheet) "heat treated", but was necessarily "cold worked" per this discussion, same as 2024 T3 would be -

"T3 temper is especially applicable to 2024 and Alclad 2024 flat sheet which has necessarily been cold-worked to obtain the degree of flatness required commercially."  Ergo, "rolling" to give the finished form we observe, whether 24S-T or 2024 T3 provides the "cold working" that clinches the final strength, or temper, if you will.

Now as to 'labels', no argument - "T3" appeared later than the more archaic "S-T", etc. by all I've learned here.  Should "T3" surface on 2-2-V-1 as a certainty, then you may have something that puts it out of time-frame due to when the new designation of T3 emerged (and nice if we can pin down more precisely as we still seem to have slightly loose ends on that for now).

Quote
The 1941 edition of "Aircraft Materials and Processes" by George Titterton makes no mention of the T3 temper for Alclad sheet.  It does cover Alclad 24ST and Alclad 24SRT [...and 'un-clad' 24SO, 24ST and 24SRT.]

There is no mention of T3 in the 1947 edition of the same book-
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89090519661;view=1up;seq=11

The T3 temper is discussed in the 1951 edition, and in the 1956 edition - page 148
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89045771615;view=1up;seq=8

T3 is also described in the 1950 edition of "Alcoa Aluminum and its Alloys." See page 16.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89083894923;view=1up;seq=24

Oddly, item 6615 on the NACA list cited by Steve is "William H. Colner and Howard T. Francis, Influence of exposed area on stress-corrosion cracking of 24S aluminum alloy, NACA TN 3292, Nov 1954, pp. 23." - not quite the full "24S-T", but not "T3" either - point being, one must dig deeper.

Thanks for providing specific references to data above.  That is what we have to get into to learn for one thing, when the actual process changed, not just the designator.

That is for what it is worth.  Above all, seems to me we still have to look for signature marks on the artifact in any case, and the more examples we collect - as you've suggested cataloguing, perhaps the better chance of an eventual full match.  Just MHO, of course. 

Thanks.
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 03:02:44 PM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #835 on: April 03, 2014, 03:27:03 PM »


...Now as to 'labels', no argument - "T3" appeared later than the more archaic "S-T", etc. by all I've learned here.  Should "T3" surface on 2-2-V-1 as a certainty, then you may have something that puts it out of time-frame due to when the new designation of T3 emerged (and nice if we can pin down more precisely as we still seem to have slightly loose ends on that for now).

Thanks for providing specific references to data above...


Yes, the focus is on the labeling, not the technical process.  Thank Steve for bringing this new detail to our attention.
 
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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #836 on: April 03, 2014, 03:34:43 PM »

The web site Doug Ledlie posted to has a picture showing an example of WW2 era ALCLAD with serif font--bomb rack supports from B-24J-155-CO-44-40332. So Alclad was still being printed with serif typeface during WW2 and here we see it on a type that crashed at Canton.

Did I maybe read something on this thread about which Alcoa plants supplied sheeting to which aircraft plants?  That might perhaps be useful in understanding the Alclad markings...

Good find Steve

This (linked above) was a good find by Steve that ought to be in the archive, me thinks.

One somewhat vexing 'variation' exists in the upper of the three brackets - the prominance of the print varies significantly for some reason (look at the "24 S-T" on the upper line, and finer, slightly more diminutive and oddly spaced "4S-T" on the lower).  Not sure why, but we've seen pix of the guys with big rollers walking the sheets to mark them, and I wonder how much squiggly variation might have happened in the print from squishy type face.  Maybe not a huge factor - but something to consider where we may just have less than a fully clear example of just what a marking truly was on a given piece of metal.

Below that is another example of "24S-T" - barely readible due to zinc chromate dusted over it.
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 03:44:02 PM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Monty Fowler

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #837 on: April 03, 2014, 03:39:41 PM »


It may no be likely to exist, but has TIGHAR tracked down any other plane repaired or built at the Lockheed facility back in March of 1937?

Not 1937, but TIGHAR does have pieces of the Idaho Electra crash from the 2013 field school. We're going to be asking some very specific questions of those pieces in the very near future.

LTM, who suddenly finds dry paint very, very interesting,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #838 on: April 03, 2014, 03:48:45 PM »

Here's to busted-up old Electras, where'er they may lie,

Hats off to those who flew 'em there, where'er they may rest,

There they lie broken and mute, nev'r again to fly,

And taunt us long and hard, in this long and reason'd quest.
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #839 on: April 03, 2014, 03:59:08 PM »

Here's a Wiki piece of some interest on "NACA Technical Note No. 842" that dates to February 1942 and harkens clearly to the older "24ST" designation in case of interest.
- Jeff Neville

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