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Author Topic: The Question of 2-2-V-1  (Read 1022867 times)

Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #390 on: March 03, 2014, 10:32:56 PM »

B-17 lost in the vicinity of Gardner Island...


B-17D Flying Fortress Serial Number 40-3089   
USAAF
13th AF
5th BG
11th BS
Pilot  Captain William Cherry, Jr.
Co-Pilot  Lt. Whittaker
Navigator  Lt. De Angelis
Crew  Sgt Reynolds
Crew  Private John Bartek
Crew  Sgt Alex (died 13th day)
Crew  Lt. Whitaker
Passenger  Col. Hans C. Adamson
Passenger  Captain Edward V. Rickenbacker
Ditched  October 21, 1942
MACR  900 and 802
Aircraft History
Built by Boeing at Seattle. Assigned to the USAAF, 13th Air Force, 5th Bombardment Group, 11th Bombardment Squadron. No known nose art or nickname.
Mission History
Edward V. "Eddie" Rickenbacker was sent on a tour of the Pacific theater to review conditions, operations, and to personally deliver a secret message to General MacArthur.
Took off from Hawaii, bound for Canton Airfield. Went off course due to a navigation error due to an out-of-true octant. damaged in a pre-take off incident. The bomber ditched at sea.
The Rickenbacker Web site is about a bomber that went down in the central Pacific ocean on its way from Hawaii to Port Moresby, New Guinea, (yes, New Guinea, as it was in those days) via Canton (Kanton, Phoenix Group, Republic of Kiribati). The first part of the journey should have ended on Canton, however, the B-17 carrying Eddie Rickenbacker, his aide Col. Hans Adamson, and their flight crew, overshot Canton Island by at least 100 miles to the southwest. Out of fuel and hundreds of miles off-course, the pilot ditched his plane in the central Pacific Ocean. The survivors were finally located on Nukufetau, Ellice Islands (Tuvalu), some 500 miles away from Canton.

http://www.navworld.com/navcerebrations/rickenbacker/braingame1.htm

The B-17D Rickenbacker was flying in was a second choice aircraft which was previously damaged at Hickam Field, Pearl harbour....
"The 5th Bombardment Group suffered devastating casualties and equipment damage during the Japanese surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, Hickam Field and other targets on the island of Oahu on 7 December 1941."

An example of a B-17D 'The Swoose'. If you take a look at the Swoose restoration project you might get a look at some of the rivet patterns and panel sizes.




This must be the place
 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 10:34:29 PM by Jeff Victor Hayden »
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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #391 on: March 04, 2014, 12:48:17 AM »

Keep looking toward Canton Island- the major hub in that area of the Pacific, before, during and after the war.
The 'Swooze' was there. 



When the Niki Islanders worked there, and gathered up B-24 parts to take home, chances are they picked up other odds and ends too.  Those parts could have been 'non-standard' repair pieces. 

The distance between rivet rows and the rivet pitch on 2-2-V-1 deviates enough from the standard Lockheed design to cause problems with a positive ID.  Better dimensions and drawings would be helpful.   

Someone has made a great web page with old Canton Island photos  - said to be from 1951-1953 -  and comments from people who had been there over years.  One is pasted below.

http://www.world-airport-codes.com/kiribati/canton-island-1231.html

My Time On Canton Island
Jack Fenimore, April 29, 2009

"I was a pilot flying P-39s off of the strip on the northwest side of Canton island in 1943. We used to take a jeep and drive around to the Pan-Am facility on the south side to get a good meal. Pan-Am had a few personnel manning their facility including a kitchen crew, even though Pan-Am had not had one of their Clippers come in since the war had started. We were over 600 miles from the nearest japs, but one lone Jap bomber would come over once a month on the night of the full moon to try to bomb us. Their bombs either hit out in the sea or in the lagoon! The only shade on our base was under the wings of our planes. It averaged over 100 degrees every day!"
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 12:55:58 AM by Mark Pearce »
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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #392 on: March 04, 2014, 08:21:57 AM »

Keep looking toward Canton Island- the major hub in that area of the Pacific, before, during and after the war.
The 'Swooze' was there. 



When the Niki Islanders worked there, and gathered up B-24 parts to take home, chances are they picked up other odds and ends too.  Those parts could have been 'non-standard' repair pieces. 

The distance between rivet rows and the rivet pitch on 2-2-V-1 deviates enough from the standard Lockheed design to cause problems with a positive ID.  Better dimensions and drawings would be helpful.   

Someone has made a great web page with old Canton Island photos  - said to be from 1951-1953 -  and comments from people who had been there over years.  One is pasted below.

http://www.world-airport-codes.com/kiribati/canton-island-1231.html

My Time On Canton Island
Jack Fenimore, April 29, 2009

"I was a pilot flying P-39s off of the strip on the northwest side of Canton island in 1943. We used to take a jeep and drive around to the Pan-Am facility on the south side to get a good meal. Pan-Am had a few personnel manning their facility including a kitchen crew, even though Pan-Am had not had one of their Clippers come in since the war had started. We were over 600 miles from the nearest japs, but one lone Jap bomber would come over once a month on the night of the full moon to try to bomb us. Their bombs either hit out in the sea or in the lagoon! The only shade on our base was under the wings of our planes. It averaged over 100 degrees every day!"

I believe part of the interest in the upcoming USAF Museum visit is to review as many of the types that visited Canton as possible for this very reason - we're not overlooking the possibility of a 'mother ship' for 2-2-V-1 among those types.

The B-17 construction methods you pointed out earlier are appreciated as well, for sure.  As to the Rickenbacker ship, I wondered - but apparently it can safely be regarded as 'lost at sea' with little hope of depositing artifacts on Niku.  Nonetheless, B-17s visited Canton and I'm sure will be considered.

No mistake - these other possibilities have to be reviewed.  But 2-2-V-1 remains an enigmatic and telling artifact - it is complex in its own way.  Yes - there are discrepancies between the rivet patterns and the known Lockheed original design, but not beyond reach considering alterations and repairs that NR16020 easily may have had given her known history.  To turn away from what this part is telling us so far means to find a better match elsewhere, or more compelling information about how repairs were being done on nearby Caton, etc. 

IMHO, 2-2-V-1 remains far more than a "could be anything" part because of its peculiar characteristics - it is trying hard to tell us much, we just have to interpret it correctly.
- Jeff Neville

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #393 on: March 04, 2014, 08:36:32 AM »

Nonetheless, B-17s visited Canton and I'm sure will be considered.

We will indeed take a close look at "The Swoose" (B-17C/D), "Memphis Belle" (B-17 F), and "Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby" (B-17G) but I'm not aware of any B-17s, other than Rickenbacker's, that came through the Canton area.  Very early in the war (January of '42) a dozen B-17Es were ferried from Hawaii to Townsville, Australia burt they didn't go through Canton and none were lost or damaged.  One of them, 41-2446, later became famous as "Swamp Ghost."
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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #394 on: March 04, 2014, 08:51:49 AM »

Sounds like a plan - and a good one.

We can keep 'looking toward Canton' but not just as a heap of prospects if we'd answer these things.  If anyone really believes there was a donor there we need the specifics.  Many of these types have already been reviewed and the chances of vintage .032" Alclad attached with 3/32" braziers (full headed AN455, not small-headed modified AN456) needs to be understood for what it is and what it is telling us.  That is a very specific creature, it is NOT a 'could show up anywhere' artifact. 

I'm not sure what it takes for folks to appreciate that, but it really needs to be grasped by those who want to challenge the search in a productive way - it is not a common combination as we've learned by looking at PBY details, etc.  I'm all for exhausting every other type that we can - but we need hard focus, not just gazing toward the horizon.
- Jeff Neville

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Monty Fowler

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #395 on: March 04, 2014, 09:03:35 AM »

... but it really needs to be grasped by those who want to challenge the search in a productive way - it is not a common combination as we've learned by looking at PBY details, etc.  I'm all for exhausting every other type that we can - but we need hard focus, not just gazing toward the horizon.

What Jeff said. TIGHAR is now going through what will result in an exhaustive "due dilligence" so that we can confidently say that no stone/rivet/Alclad sheet has gone unturned.

What is frustrating for me is that even though we are doing that, there will be the inevitable person who will loudly say, and with only the volume of their voice to back them up, "But what about THIS???"

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #396 on: March 04, 2014, 09:23:56 AM »

Let's get serious.  We need to draw the boundaries of the search for an alternative source for 2-2-V-1. We need a list, preferably as an Excel spreadsheet, of every aircraft type that needs to be checked.  Then we'll identify examples of those types that can be checked.  Many, but not all, will be in Dayton.  Some, like the B-24M, the Coronado and the PBM, are sole survivors at other museums. There may be a few types that are now extinct. 

The spreadsheet should include:
•  The manufacturer
•  The manufacturer's type number ( example: the B-24 was Consolidated Model 32)
•  The various military designations (example: Army B-24, Navy PB4Y)
•  Surviving example(s) and their locations.
•  Date of TIGHAR inspection
•  Name of TIGHAR inspector(s)
•  Result of inspection

What else?


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Matt Revington

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #397 on: March 04, 2014, 09:40:31 AM »

One thing that puzzles me is that if this piece was salvaged and brought to Niku from Canton or somewhere else how come it was never re-purposed.

Have any other comparable pieces of aircraft metal been found on Niku that weren't turned into combs or decorative items or something useful?   Given how resource starved the colonists were it seems uncharacteristic to haul this back from wherever and never use it (I assume it shows no signs of a secondary use).   
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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #398 on: March 04, 2014, 09:40:47 AM »

Let's get serious.  We need to draw the boundaries of the search for an alternative source for 2-2-V-1. We need a list, preferably as an Excel spreadsheet, of every aircraft type that needs to be checked.  Then we'll identify examples of those types that can be checked.  Many, but not all, will be in Dayton.  Some, like the B-24M, the Coronado and the PBM, are sole survivors at other museums. There may be a few types that are now extinct. 

The spreadsheet should include:
•  The manufacturer
•  The manufacturer's type number ( example: the B-24 was Consolidated Model 32)
•  The various military designations (example: Army B-24, Navy PB4Y)
•  Surviving example(s) and their locations.
•  Date of TIGHAR inspection
•  Name of TIGHAR inspector(s)
•  Result of inspection

What else?

If 'Result of Inspection' means principally "match" or "no reasonable match", then an additional 'remarks' column where we can note particular features of construction that are similar - or note that original construction differs distinctly; also where we can note any odd characteristics like old repairs or apparent alterations that might include deviations.  This could be kept orderly with a key for these various attributes.  Also a column / way to key tabular information to a master file in case we accumulate photographs or more written detail for detailed files, if that is desirable for any reason.

Wanna do it or want to assign this task?  I can take a crack at the spread sheet if you like.
- Jeff Neville

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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #399 on: March 04, 2014, 09:47:12 AM »

One thing that puzzles me is that if this piece was salvaged and brought to Niku from Canton or somewhere else how come it was never re-purposed.

Have any other comparable pieces of aircraft metal been found on Niku that weren't turned into combs or decorative items or something useful?   Given how resource starved the colonists were it seems uncharacteristic to haul this back from wherever and never use it (I assume it shows no signs of a secondary use).

That's a darn good question.  In fact, the way 2-2-V-1 was found could suggest that it was never harvested at all, but swept up into the brush by natural action long ago.

Maybe a look at the navigator's bookcase will tell more - I don't recall it having been scalped for recycling yet either, so maybe they just never got to these pieces.  Or maybe it was low in priority being heavily abused already.

Can you imagine the liability in today's world - innocents gathering and working metal that was laden with carcinogenic zinc chromate, etc... egad.  For that one found piece (the bookcase), one suspects the state of California would put a hurricane fence around the island... with a concrete moat.  ;)
- Jeff Neville

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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #400 on: March 04, 2014, 09:58:53 AM »


We will indeed take a close look at "The Swoose" (B-17C/D), "Memphis Belle" (B-17 F), and "Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby" (B-17G) but I'm not aware of any B-17s, other than Rickenbacker's, that came through the Canton area.  Very early in the war (January of '42) a dozen B-17Es were ferried from Hawaii to Townsville, Australia but they didn't go through Canton and none were lost or damaged.  One of them, 41-2446, later became famous as "Swamp Ghost."


According to the book "Fighting for America: Black Soldiers- the Unsung Heroes of World War II" by Christopher Moore, B-17s were the very first 'land' planes to arrive on Canton.  [Parts can be read on Google Books.]

"...In early November 1941, a squadron of forty-three engineers was assigned to build shipping facilities and runways on Canton capable of handling B-17's... A supervisor's report expressed confidence that the runway would be ready for medium and heavy bombers by January 15, 1942- to thwart any possible attack from Japan.... By January 16, the field was ready for the first combat patrols by aircraft in the South Pacific.  Two days later, six B-17 aircraft landed at Canton.  On Friday, February 13, more than 1,100 reinforcements arrived aboard the troop carrier USS President Taylor to continue developing the island. "

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/airfields/kiribati/canton/ ....has more about B-17's operating from Canton Island.

"Canton Airfield was an important refueling stop for aircraft being ferried from Hawaii to Canton then onward to Palmyra, Fiji and Australia. Canton was used for some combat missions and photographic reconnaissance flights. On January 17, 1942 B-17's of Task Group 8.9 arrive from Palmyra. During the month, B-17's conduct antisubmarine search from Canton, departing on January 21 and 25 for Nandi then returns to Canton then depart on January 29. On July 23, 1942 three B-17s fly via Canton to fly a photo reconnaissance of Makin."

Bill Yenne's book "B-17 at War" includes...

[B-17s flying from Canton Island and Fiji] " ...were the first USAAF patrol operations conducted over vast areas in the Pacific, and they identified lessons in navigation and maintenance that needed to be learned for future operations." [page 29]

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #401 on: March 04, 2014, 10:14:43 AM »

That's good research Mark.  Thanks. 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #402 on: March 04, 2014, 10:20:56 AM »

One thing that puzzles me is that if this piece was salvaged and brought to Niku from Canton or somewhere else how come it was never re-purposed.

It may well have been re-purposed.  ALCOA found that some sections of the piece had been exposed to heat.  Not hot enough to melt the metal but hot enough to cause it to lose some of its ductility (bendableness).  We have an anecdotal account by one of the former Niku residents living in the Solomon Islands os a piece of sheet metal with rivet holes being used to cook fish.  The puzzling thing is that, when found in 1991, the definitely piece gave the impression of having been washed ashore in a storm.  It wasn't there (or at least visible) in 1989.  It's possible that it was originally salvaged from wherever, used to cook fish, then discarded right there in the landing channel*when the island was abandoned only to wash up later.

Have any other comparable pieces of aircraft metal been found on Niku that weren't turned into combs or decorative items or something useful?

We have a few smaller pieces of sheet aluminum that weren't cut up or at least not entirely cut up, but 2-2-V-1 is the only piece that looks like a section of airplane skin. When I get time I should put up photos of the various pieces of aircraft aluminum found in the village.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #403 on: March 04, 2014, 10:23:18 AM »

Wanna do it or want to assign this task?  I can take a crack at the spread sheet if you like.

Go for it.  No good deed goes unpunished.  Thanks.
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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #404 on: March 04, 2014, 11:05:10 AM »

That's good research Mark.  Thanks.

Glad to be of assistance.   I really believe the B-17 needs to be investigated carefully, along with the PBY.   

The people working on the Urbana, Ohio B-17 're-creation' project might be very interested in helping out here.  They have racks full of original plans- photos can be seen in the last link here.  Urbana is about forty miles from Dayton.  I bet it would be worth a side trip for some of you, before or after you go to the Air Force Museum.

http://www.champaignaviationmuseum.org/

[They have also have a B-25, and a C-47.]

On the link below you can see that someone has asked,  "Just out of curiosity, what thickness is the fuselage skin?"

Answer-  "The aluminum sheets we use are measured in thousandths of an inch. The Boeing drawings we have specify materials in thousandths as well... The guys who skinned the aircraft would have used the specified thickness. I am pretty sure it would have to be .032 or .040."  "...I measured the thickness with a digital calipers. I also checked a few drawings and the skin thickness varied between .020, .032 and .040"

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/505151-Urbana-B-17-Update-Feb-2010/page2?s=38f049e494d2938be63a808b10377226
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