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Author Topic: The Question of 2-2-V-1  (Read 841611 times)

Jerry Germann

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #165 on: February 16, 2014, 11:14:06 PM »

Here is a sketch I hope helps to explain the image orientation better.
Note the nose and tail were not labeled correctly on the images and may have caused confusion.

Greg,
I tried drawing some lines down the rivet patterns to try to determine the direction of spread, whether they drift to port or starboard as they proceed aft, ... the overhead photo does prove to be a challange...inconclusive to me ....the drawing shows a merging of the rivet pattern as it proceeds aft, this is also evident along the rivet line closest to the keel line as well,....it seems confusing ,maybe a new drawing is in order? I still question the purported positioning of the panel here ,due to the rivet spacing...even allowing for the panels distorted shape , I think it would be hard to fit the artifacts 4" rivet spacing onto the stringers if they were indeed 3 " apart on center....If the rivet pattern does prove to expand outward as one moves aft , what prevents one from rotating the panel 180 degrees clockwise and moving it toward the nose?
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Greg Daspit

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #166 on: February 17, 2014, 08:36:23 AM »

Here is a sketch I hope helps to explain the image orientation better.
Note the nose and tail were not labeled correctly on the images and may have caused confusion.

Greg,
I tried drawing some lines down the rivet patterns to try to determine the direction of spread, whether they drift to port or starboard as they proceed aft, ... the overhead photo does prove to be a challange...inconclusive to me ....the drawing shows a merging of the rivet pattern as it proceeds aft, this is also evident along the rivet line closest to the keel line as well,....it seems confusing ,maybe a new drawing is in order? I still question the purported positioning of the panel here ,due to the rivet spacing...even allowing for the panels distorted shape , I think it would be hard to fit the artifacts 4" rivet spacing onto the stringers if they were indeed 3 " apart on center....If the rivet pattern does prove to expand outward as one moves aft , what prevents one from rotating the panel 180 degrees clockwise and moving it toward the nose?
I noticed some dimensions strings did not click to the rivet holes in that exhibit showing dimensions for the rivet lines. I thought something was not right about it, but remember what Ric said in Reply 147
“The measurements in the illustration at http://tighar.org/wiki/File:2-2-V-1_interior_CAD.png were done from a tracing and they don't match measurements I just made on the actual artifact.  These errors have haunted our evaluation of this artifact for years and we're just now sorting them out.”

The sketch I did before was just to help clear up a conflict with an exhibit and what was being said, so we can all understand what the theory is and be on the same page in questioning it.

I did my own sketch just to check the taper. Note it is NOT TO SCALE. It’s a photo and I was not trying to determine the size of anything. Only the taper direction.
I picked the middle portion to check. (It seemed the tears on the ends could have even more distortion) Per this sketch they taper so they are closer as they go to the tail.
(The “Tail” is as oriented in the latest hypothesized location)
3971R
 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 08:50:43 AM by Greg Daspit »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #167 on: February 17, 2014, 08:59:36 AM »

 The lines do seem to taper in the "right" direction if our hypothesis about the placement of the artifact on Earhart's Electra is correct.  If they tapered the other way it would not be possible to put the line of larger rivets and the "tab" on the keel and it's hard to see how the larger rivets would be anywhere else.  Put another way, for this artifact to come from where we think it did, the lines MUST taper in the direction they do.

Such general characteristics are important but, as we've seen, the distortion of the piece caused by the damage makes getting accurate detailed measurement of the implied stringer spacing and taper really difficult.  We're going to need better tools than we have applied so far.  The FAA's Aris Scarla tells me there is imaging software that can "undamaged" rumpled airplane wreckage.  I'll see if he can point us toward someone who can do that for us.   
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Tim Collins

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #168 on: February 17, 2014, 09:28:58 AM »

Has 2-2-V-1 been subjected to various light wave lengths to see if there are any ghost images on it?
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #169 on: February 17, 2014, 09:31:43 AM »

Has 2-2-V-1 been subjected to various light wave lengths to see if there are any ghost images on it?

No.  What kind of light waves and what kind of ghost images might be revealed.

(Who ya gonna call?)
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Tim Collins

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #170 on: February 17, 2014, 09:54:37 AM »

Has 2-2-V-1 been subjected to various light wave lengths to see if there are any ghost images on it?

No.  What kind of light waves and what kind of ghost images might be revealed.

(Who ya gonna call?)

Should have said light wave lengths and ghosted. - perhaps would reveal markings that have been removed  by wear or environment, potential evidence of structure to which it was attached. Don't assume that just because you can't see it that it isn't there.

The example that comes to mind is that serial numbers are visible under ultra violet light (or is it a different wave length?) on guns that have had them filed off.   
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Jerry Germann

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #171 on: February 17, 2014, 09:57:09 AM »

[I was wondering if the skinners (crew who installed the AL clad panels) would always begin by skinning the same side of each new unit and overlap each plane the same. ...if the belly of the Electra is the same as this example, would the keel portion depicted on the artifact ( placed as thought) be the under lap layer of skin?

 I didn't quite word that correctly , I meant would the remaining tab (with the three 5/32nds rivet holes) that extends accross the keel line on the artifact....would,that be under the port side panel if all electras were skinned in like manner?  In other words does the interior side of the port panel always overlap the exterior side of the starboard panel (when viewed from outside)?

My thoughts concerning this; .....If this artifact were on the starboard side and it's port side edge was tucked under it's port side neighbors starboard edge, would there be any telling marks that indicated this, such as lack of any rivet head dimpling or rivet head impression,etc. Upon separation from the larger sheet, I am trying to visualize the scenario, that would leave the remaining tab on the artifact in the manner it appears....if force from above pushed this panel out, would the tab be bent in an upwards position, would rivet holes be enlongated somewhat (port to starboard), and would the wave action on the port side of the artifact ,differ, if the overlapping of the belly panels are reversed? I believe so.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 12:51:22 PM by Jerry Germann »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #172 on: February 17, 2014, 09:57:14 AM »

The example that comes to mind is that serial numbers are visible under ultra violet light (or is it a different wave length?) on guns that have had them filed off.   

Should be easy enough to get an ultra-violet light and take a look.
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richie conroy

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #173 on: February 17, 2014, 10:10:12 AM »

Hi All

You all probably read this page before, link http://www-tc.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/static/media/transcripts/2011-05-21/706_ameliaearhart.pdf

I found the part about certain amounts of other metals added to strengthen alloy

Thanks Richie
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #174 on: February 17, 2014, 10:26:01 AM »

You all probably read this page before

Nothing new there.  Terrible show.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #175 on: February 17, 2014, 12:36:55 PM »

What were the floor boards in AE’s plane like in the belly area near the door?
 The floor boards in this plane(see attached pdf) seem to be attached by a few screws in the keel and at a strip at the side walls. 
 If one of the floor panels or part of a floor panel exposed a small part of the exterior skin from the inside it may have allowed a wave to hit a small exposed area. Causing a center part of an aluminum panel to break out by an isolated force
3971R
 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 12:40:27 PM by Greg Daspit »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #176 on: February 17, 2014, 12:47:01 PM »

What were the floor boards in AE’s plane like in the belly area near the door?

As far as I know they were linoleum-covered plywood panels that were attached to the underlying structure with screws just as in other Electras.


 
 
 If one of the floor panels or part of a floor panel exposed a small part of the exterior skin from the inside it may have allowed a wave to hit a small exposed area. Causing a center part of an aluminum panel to break out by an isolated force

That seems like a possibility.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #177 on: February 17, 2014, 03:54:49 PM »


I meant would the remaining tab (with the three 5/32nds rivet holes) that extends accross the keel line on the artifact..
Upon separation from the larger sheet, I am trying to visualize the scenario, that would leave the remaining tab on the artifact in the manner it appears....

See sketch for what I was thinking about the tab. The "tab" fails at 2nd row of rivets because the skin gets more pushed out from the keel there. The rivets farther from the center shear at the first row because the skin is tighter to the keel there. (the rivets and and deformation are exaggerated for clarity) Kind of a sketchy thought and drawing.
3971R
 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 07:53:08 AM by Greg Daspit »
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richie conroy

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #178 on: February 17, 2014, 03:57:54 PM »

Sorry for Change off subject guys

Ric have you seen this picture of Norwich City before ?



Website link http://reardonsmithships.co.uk/norwichcity1002.php

If so do you know when it was took ?

Feel free to remove from discussion when you have read it

Thanks
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #179 on: February 17, 2014, 04:41:47 PM »

Ric have you seen this picture of Norwich City before ?

No.

If so do you know when it was took ?

She's intact, back not broken.  My guess is that the photo was taken from one of the rescue ships (SS Trongate or SS Lincoln Ellsworth) just days after the accident.
Very cool!  Great find!  But I was just reminded that Bruce Thomas posted that photo last summer.  Dunno how I missed it.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 04:45:28 PM by Ric Gillespie »
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