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Author Topic: Grand Rapids trip (2-2-V-1)  (Read 135407 times)

Jeff Lange

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #135 on: February 09, 2014, 09:13:48 PM »

I'm sorry, but once again, I just don't see what Tim sees.

Since my mother taught me that if I had nothing nice to say, then say nothing at all, I will hold further comment.
Jeff Lange

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JNev

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #136 on: February 10, 2014, 06:16:51 AM »

I see rocks personally but then I've already confessed being in the 'blind idiot' camp most likely when it comes to these underwater photos.

Tim, how is it that none of the rest of us can see what you do?  It appears it will take another close look-see to verify it for public consumption, and since you are very convinced it would be really cool if you backed that effort, IMO.  I'll pitch in what I can in the spirit of that.
- Jeff Neville

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THWWallace

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #137 on: February 10, 2014, 08:38:23 AM »

I'm sorry, but once again, I just don't see what Tim sees.

Since my mother taught me that if I had nothing nice to say, then say nothing at all, I will hold further comment.

Jeff,

A.)  There's a reason that you (and I, and many, many others) don't see what Tim sees. 
B.)  My prediction:  They'll be much less debate about the 2015 images.  In fact, they'll be no debate whatsoever.   
C.)  I too with withhold further comment, my father having taught me what your mother taught you. 

~Travis
 
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Monty Fowler

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #138 on: February 10, 2014, 09:37:59 AM »

I will have to side with Ric on this one, first we have to figure out if this large piece of aluminum sheet is from our own very special Electra, before we expend time, very scarce funds and almost as scarce effort in trying to figure out how it got the way it did.

With this riddle, as with so may others in the Amelia and Fred saga, I am reminded of the term they use in psychology, where the tendency for the mind to find coincidences, patterns and connections in random data is called apophenia.

LTM, who tries to keep his patterns simple,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
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John Ousterhout

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #139 on: February 10, 2014, 10:07:13 AM »

The bulged deformation of the sheet might be explained, not by an unusual high-speed wave impacting a stationary aircraft on the reef, but by an aircraft impacting water at high speed, as in a crash or forced landing.  Ric or others might have some experience seeing the kind of damage caused by aircraft crashing into water and could advise us how the artifact differs in appearance.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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JNev

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #140 on: February 10, 2014, 10:27:08 AM »

The bulged deformation of the sheet might be explained, not by an unusual high-speed wave impacting a stationary aircraft on the reef, but by an aircraft impacting water at high speed, as in a crash or forced landing.  Ric or others might have some experience seeing the kind of damage caused by aircraft crashing into water and could advise us how the artifact differs in appearance.

Don't forget that it may have been the same as described being used over a fire to cook fish.

"How the sheet got this way" may be an extremely complex determination, whereas just the fact of its having separated by fatigue (whether high or low cyclic) and being weather-beaten by a number of island conditions should tell us much, even without super-specifics.

Bottom line to me with great respect for others who differ - 'where did it come from' is first, yes - and the signatures on this complex piece point strongly now to the belly of a certain L10 due to metal type, pattern of fasteners which while not perfect is very close to at least one known Electra, and rivet type, plus vintage clearly established by method of factory marking, and now even possibly the habit of turning markings outward (on convex surface) as did Lockheed (as in picture provided by Ric).

The Airacobras 200 miles away were worth looking at, but now having looked at that type I don't see a match: they were of more robust military-style construction and exhibit largely flush-fastened skins.  Could it have been an interior piece?  You'd have to find something with stringers that are much more commonly associated with exterior skins, but yes.  Apparently we'd need to look for something with a contour too - odd for interior appointments.
- Jeff Neville

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Tim Mellon

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #141 on: February 10, 2014, 11:30:13 AM »


Tim, how is it that none of the rest of us can see what you do?

That's a really good question, Jeff. All three of the forensic guys working on these images have no problem at all seeing what I can see. (Also, we have no idea what proportion of the 300+ folks that have now looked at this image can see it).

Maybe the attached annotation will be of assistance in identifying the details of the image. A clean copy is also provided. The fuselage hulk (without roof) stretches from the Main Beam towards the upper left corner of the picture.

Tim
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JNev

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #142 on: February 10, 2014, 11:50:38 AM »


Tim, how is it that none of the rest of us can see what you do?

That's a really good question, Jeff. All three of the forensic guys working on these images have no problem at all seeing what I can see. (Also, we have no idea what proportion of the 300+ folks that have now looked at this image can see it).

Maybe the attached annotation will be of assistance in identifying the details of the image. A clean copy is also provided. The fuselage hulk (without roof) stretches from the Main Beam towards the upper left corner of the picture.

For the door to be juxtaposed to the windows in that manner, it would have to have been on the right-side of the fuselage, I believe.  Earhart's bird did not have that many windows - the normal cabin windows were rather permanently closed-in as I recall, except for the RH aft window (across from door) and the door itself still having a window. 

Were the fuselage on its back then I guess they would be juxtaposed as you suggest, except that the water lines are all wrong - the windows would be 'below' the door level - or so it looks to me by what you've illustrated.

I would like to know how your experts are going to convince the public, who does not so far in all these years seem interested in rolling over to accept someone else's view of what's what out there... with all due respect, I remain unconvinced that we're seeing Lockheed Electra wreckage at all, as much as I'd love to see it (and I'm quite capable of acute apophenia where these images are concerned without a doubt). 

If it were me I'd be sure my experts weren't using a bit of license at my expense, Tim - just MHO.  People do so like to please...
- Jeff Neville

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Scott C. Mitchell

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #143 on: February 10, 2014, 12:13:42 PM »

How does one determine scale in an image like that?  How do you know if what you are looking at is 20 feet long or 2 feet long?  Maybe there's a formula based on field-of-view, focal plane of lens, assumed standardized depth, etc.  Otherwise you'd be like the poet William Blake, trying ". . . to see a World in a grain of sand. . . ".

Scott Mitchell
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richie conroy

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #144 on: February 10, 2014, 12:17:52 PM »

Tim

Only because rock formations replicate uncannily with Electra skin and structure, Don't mean it is actually part of the Electra for instance Pic 1 look were yellow arrow is pointing looks like a skull lying on it's right cheek and were observing the left cheek very life like.

Pic 2 what is the odd white ball object ? a bulb, a plant, a deep sea creature ?

The difference is i am saying what they resemble not what they actually are, For the sake of your own reputation even if you just explain why you believe it is part of the Electra, You are not exposing your self to abuse or insults, Not that you will recieve that here but in England you would be sent the mad house making claims like that  :)

Thank's Richie
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« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 12:25:18 PM by richie conroy »
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JNev

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #145 on: February 10, 2014, 12:23:03 PM »

How does one determine scale in an image like that?  How do you know if what you are looking at is 20 feet long or 2 feet long?  Maybe there's a formula based on field-of-view, focal plane of lens, assumed standardized depth, etc.  Otherwise you'd be like the poet William Blake, trying ". . . to see a World in a grain of sand. . . ".

Scott Mitchell
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This has been an eternally infernal part of the problem for me (a minor part since I just don't see the same things as some others anyway).  Short of having a known object to scale by, I don't see how one can scale these.  Tim's 'fuselage' may only be inches long so far as I can tell.

Now someone could make the leap that they are scaling against a 'known' because they believe the SEE and KNOWN object - but that'a a bit boot-strapped to me.
- Jeff Neville

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #146 on: February 10, 2014, 01:06:14 PM »

The bulged deformation of the sheet might be explained, not by an unusual high-speed wave impacting a stationary aircraft on the reef, but by an aircraft impacting water at high speed, as in a crash or forced landing.  Ric or others might have some experience seeing the kind of damage caused by aircraft crashing into water and could advise us how the artifact differs in appearance.

I've never seen damage like that in a ditching or crash into water but I can image that it would be possible.  Just find an American airplane with .032 skin and #3 size rivets that ditched or crashed within a thousand miles of where the artifact was found.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #147 on: February 10, 2014, 01:06:54 PM »


This has been an eternally infernal part of the problem for me (a minor part since I just don't see the same things as some others anyway).  Short of having a known object to scale by, I don't see how one can scale these.  Tim's 'fuselage' may only be inches long so far as I can tell.



You can't judge scale, Jeff, because you don't have the tools at your disposal that I do. The subject is visible in both High Definition and Standard Definition videos (neither of which is yet available to you for this portion of the July 14, 2012 dive). While neither video has a built in scale, as such, the Standard Definition video does have a calibrated depth meter displayed (in feet and tenths). As the camera moves inexorably downhill, one quickly learns how to judge the change in depth relative to the passing scenery displayed. Since the slope approximates 45o, then a horizontal movement is essentially the same as a vertical movement, thus giving approximate scale in two dimensions (dividing by 1.414, of course).

In addition, the subject picture was captured from a much larger landscape, which contains other items related to the Electra (viz. engine components, a propeller blade, both pitot tubes, and possibly part of a wing). All these items seem to scale well against each other. Also, the 2012 High Definition video contains 1929x1080 pixels per frame, which my monitor and software can handle, but that may not be true for everyone.

You learn to live with the tools you have. Maybe next time Ric will demand to have parallel lasers pointing out from the ROV to create a meter-long scale between the two red dots cast onto the landscape.

Tim
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« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 03:32:22 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #148 on: February 10, 2014, 01:16:27 PM »

The difference is i am saying what they resemble not what they actually are, For the sake of your own reputation even if you just explain why you believe it is part of the Electra, You are not exposing your self to abuse or insults, Not that you will recieve that here but in England you would be sent the mad house making claims like that  :)

Not knowing whether Tim has any plans to travel to England, and rather than expose him to abuse or insults, we'll have no further discussion of what he thinks he sees in the underwater imagery.
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richie conroy

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Re: Grand Rapids trip
« Reply #149 on: February 10, 2014, 04:42:20 PM »

Hi Ric

Fair enough if you think Tim's images do not further The search for Amelia, I was merely suggesting that he refrain from the IT IS, To Possible Candidate Or Maybe Resembles Even.

Thanks Richie
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