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Author Topic: Niku VIII Plan  (Read 158079 times)

Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2013, 12:10:40 AM »

Wreckage of ‘Carnauba’, a 1930s vintage Sikorsky S-38 aircraft, a beloved icon of SC Johnson's early history, was found on July 5, 2000, in seawater off of an Indonesian island of West Irian Jaya. The company decided to recover this aircraft from seawater, conserve it, and display it in its museum, as part of their rich heritage.

I'm familiar with "Carnauba."  It's still where it was found.  The Sikorsky S-38 is not at all analogous to a Lockheed 10 in materials or construction.

They have settled for simply parts of it being displayed, the majority of it is still where it was located, in the sea.

construction? agreed hardly any.

Materials? surprisingly a lot...
 "From the early 1930's onward, virtually all American all-metal aircraft - civilian and military - were skinned with the same alloy. Back then it was known as 24ST ALCLAD.  Today it's called 2024 ALCLAD - a sheet of alloy with excellent strength properties sandwiched between thin layers of pure aluminum for corrosion protection."

COMPARISON OF MODERN & OLD SYSTEMS OF ALUMINUM ALLOY DESIGNATION
 
In the old system, alloy composition was indicated by a one- or two-digit number followed by the letter “S” to indicate that it was a wrought alloy, i.e., an alloy that could be shaped by rolling, drawing or forging. Any variation in the basic composition was indicated by a letter preceding the numerical alloy designation. For example, A17S was a modification of the basic alloy 17S. In modern terminology these two alloys are designated 2117S and 2017S, respectively. Temper was designated by a second letter: “O” for soft (annealed), “H”for strain hardness of non heat-treatable alloys, and “T”for hardness of heat-treatable alloys. Degree of hardness of non heat-treatable alloys was indicated by a fraction preceding the letter “H”. For example, 3S1/4H would be quarter-hard 3S alloy.

The following Table gives examples of the old and modern designations of some common aluminum alloys.


Modern system       Old System
1100                      2S
3003                      3S
3003-0                  3S0
2014                      14S
2017                      17S
2117                      A17S
2018                      18S
2218                      B18S
2024T                     24ST
5052                      52S
7075T6                  75ST6
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2013, 12:21:52 AM »

Richie, I noticed the Liverpool connection...

Sonar image anomaly
Richie
Yellow submarine

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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2013, 12:24:47 AM »

Quote
They have settled for simply parts of it being displayed, the majority of it is still where it was located, in the sea.

Should this be TIGHARS approach?

I guess it depends on if anything is actually found and its condition Chris, any ideas?
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Chuck Lynch

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2013, 09:21:51 AM »

If I may be so bold, how do we know that human remains are not in the plane, should it be found relatively intact?

And as such, it would be considered a gravesite like the Titanic and be left as it is found.

Thanks,

--Chuck
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2013, 11:33:33 AM »

If I may be so bold, how do we know that human remains are not in the plane, should it be found relatively intact?

There were human remains aboard the Hunley because it was a sealed environment.  As far as I know, there have been no human remains found on or near the Titanic.  I think any underwater archaeologist would tell what our underwater archaeologist has told us - there is no way that human remains can survive 76 years in an open underwater tropical environment.  If anyone can find a documented example of such survival I'd love to see it.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2013, 12:53:02 PM »

...there is no way that human remains can survive 76 years in an open underwater tropical environment.  If anyone can find a documented example of such survival I'd love to see it.

Here's one.

Here's another (though not tropical).

Tim
Chairman,  CEO
PanAm Systems

TIGHAR #3372R
 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 01:04:19 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2013, 12:56:29 PM »

OK Not trolling but define open environment if you will.  If part of the electra is found sealed through say crumpling then it could hold remains that have been protected.

By "open environment" I mean not sealed off from the environment - marine growth, sea creatures, bacteria, etc.  It's hard to imagine how crumping would accomplish that.

In another post I mentioned watching the French Diver Jacques Cousteau doing a film in the pacific that showed remains, found a link to a write up here it was Truk Lagoon.

Thanks.  That surprises me.  Obviously, if we were to find human remains either on land or in the water we would follow the appropriate protocols - as we have in the past.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 02:09:42 PM by Bruce Thomas »
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Glenn McInnes

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2013, 01:22:41 PM »

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2013, 01:33:32 PM »

Here are some great photos from Truk.

Note the lack of coral growth on the aircraft aluminum, versus the heavy growth on steel structures.
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Glenn McInnes

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2013, 01:48:20 PM »

Yes,the aluminum is still bright and fairly clean after 70+ years.Hopefully this will aid in finding something on the next expedition with the use of submarines and bright lights.






Glenn
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Glenn McInnes

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2013, 02:07:26 PM »

My pleasure Chris..It also gives you an idea of what an aluminum aircraft may look like in an underwater Pacific environment after 70 years.

I just don't know what affect marine growth has on something aluminum at certain depths,as the Truk photos are in fairly shallow water compared to where we think the Electra is.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 02:12:35 PM by Glenn McInnes »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2013, 02:38:37 PM »

Costeau filmed Truk in 1969
Images of skulls may have been only 25 years old at the time they were filmed and may have been uncovered just before being filmed.
Some of those old images are still posted today and are still images of a 25 year old skull.
3971R
 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 02:46:14 PM by Greg Daspit »
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Russ Matthews

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2013, 04:20:34 PM »

I just don't know what affect marine growth has on something aluminum at certain depths,as the Truk photos are in fairly shallow water compared to where we think the Electra is.

Given the lack of (life sustaining/growth promoting) sunlight in the depths where the Electra wreckage is presumed to lie, I would expect the affect is negligible.
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2013, 05:04:13 PM »

Dr Tom King has in the past expressed his concerns regarding what may be left of the Electra...

"Why I Don’t Think We’ll Find the Airplane – And Why I Don’t Think It Matters"

http://ameliaearhartarchaeology.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/why-i-dont-think-well-find-airplane-and.html
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Niku VIII Plan
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2013, 05:38:43 PM »

Given the lack of (life sustaining/growth promoting) sunlight in the depths where the Electra wreckage is presumed to lie, I would expect the affect is negligible.

I guess that depends upon what depth the Electra wreckage is presumed to lie and whether whatever is left includes aluminum.  We have a number of possible pieces of debris at a fairly broad range of depths:
•  The Cook Object at about 18 meters (60 feet).  Lots of light and marine growth
•  Glickman's landing gear debris field at about 61 meters (200 feet). Still plenty of ambient light and marine growth at that depth.
•  Richie's anomaly at about 187 meters (613 feet). Very little sunlight penetrates to that depth and new coral growth is minimal.  If the anomaly is aluminum aircraft wreckage I would expect it to be largely free of coral or plant growth.

At 250 meters (820 feet) and below,  it's a cold, dead, dark world with a constant light "snowfall" of talus from above that covers some, but by no means all surfaces, with a light dusting.  If pieces of aircraft wreckage ended up that deep I would expect them to look much like the Norwich City wreckage that is at a similar depth, easily recognizable against the natural background except I would expect the aluminum to be largely free of growth. The idea that pieces of aircraft wreckage would be so encrusted and coated as to only hint at the shape of the underlying object is, as far as I know, contrary to anything we see in the Norwich City debris field.

It is also possible, and there is some reason to believe, that the aircraft broke up in relatively shallow water and most, if not all, of the sheet aluminum was carried away to be later washed up, salvaged, and used up by the locals, or widely scattered southward "downstream" by natural forces.  That's what TIGHAR member Howard Alldred theorized.  Howard was a geological engineer from New Zealand with extensive knowledge of coral atolls.  He was an EPAC member and was on the 2003 Niku VP expedition.  Tragically, Howard later died of a brain tumor.  It was Howard's scenario that prompted TIGHAR's own senior archaeologist to argue strongly against us even trying to find the plane.
If Howard's scenario was correct, the surviving wreckage may be analogous to what we saw in Idaho last summer during the Field School.  In that case a Lockheed Electra was forcibly disassembled (by colliding with a mountain) and the aluminum structure subsequently removed (by fire and human salvagers), leaving behind only the heavy steel components - landing gear pieces and engine parts.  If that's all that is still there we have our work cut out for us but, even so, I think the subs can do the job.
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