TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Chris Johnson on September 04, 2012, 01:50:10 PM

Title: A reef in time!
Post by: Chris Johnson on September 04, 2012, 01:50:10 PM
Latest resaerch Bulletin on website via facebook

Better than average luck (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/64_ReefLanding/64_ReefLanding.htm)
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 04, 2012, 02:06:51 PM
Thanks for the link Chris! :D
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 04, 2012, 02:27:57 PM
You're being a smart aleck now. Unfortunately, you are also very correct. ::)
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Dave Potratz on September 04, 2012, 02:51:20 PM
Wow, what an uncanny account . . . and a canny response some nine months later requires not very much of a stretch.   I can't imagine, had she heard of it, that she would not have been exceptionally interested.   

I think the fact that the landing had in fact been succesfully managed would have spoken volumes to her, particularly the documented rationale for landing with intent to take-off again.

"We can do this, Fred!"

LTM,
dp

Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Bruce Thomas on September 04, 2012, 04:19:02 PM
Kudos to Art Johnson, who I believe is the one who brought to our attention the General Aircraft Ltd ST-18 Croydon aircraft and its 1936 reef landing, complete with pictures, through his Forum posting of 10 days ago (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,253.msg18857.html#msg18857). A really nice piece of research, Art!
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Bob Lanz on September 04, 2012, 04:33:31 PM
You're being a smart aleck now. Unfortunately, you are also very correct. ::)

Agreed Woodman, but this old geezer is not only computer savvy I do social networking as well.  At least I know how to spell savvy unless that is the UK version.  ;)

Oops, now I have to moderate myself and all this off topic stuff to the Chatterbox, however I am not sure where I will put it there.  Maybe a new topic called Nonsense..   :-\
See what you made me do Woody?  ;D
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on September 04, 2012, 06:27:09 PM
I think the fact that the landing had in fact been successfully managed would have spoken volumes to her, particularly the documented rationale for landing with intent to take-off again.

I found that one of the most interesting parts of the article.  I get the impression that the whole crew would have loved to have saved the plane.  It appears that landing on the reef rather than ditching near the fishing boat was a deliberate choice on their part.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 04, 2012, 07:44:40 PM
You're being a smart aleck now. Unfortunately, you are also very correct. ::)

Agreed Woodman, but this old geezer is not only computer savvy I do social networking as well.  At least I know how to spell savvy unless that is the UK version.  ;)

Oops, now I have to moderate myself and all this off topic stuff to the Chatterbox, however I am not sure where I will put it there.  Maybe a new topic called Nonsense..   :-\
See what you made me do Woody?  ;D

Just blame it all on me. I can take it. 8)
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 04, 2012, 07:54:43 PM
I think the fact that the landing had in fact been successfully managed would have spoken volumes to her, particularly the documented rationale for landing with intent to take-off again.

I found that one of the most interesting parts of the article.  I get the impression that the whole crew would have loved to have saved the plane.  It appears that landing on the reef rather than ditching near the fishing boat was a deliberate choice on their part.

Several of the other pilots here don't agree with me, but I was always taught, and I firmly believe, that if you can save the aircraft you will save your own hide. If there was any way possible, that's what I would have tried to do. In this case, the airplane was one of a kind.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Monty Fowler on September 05, 2012, 08:36:30 AM
What we tend to forget, and what might have played a major role in Amelia's thought process at the time, was that a large part of her personal "fortune," as it were, was tied up in that shiny hunk of aluminum. People will do the most incredibly irrational things to save money, just as they will do the most incredibly irrantional things to make or get money.

LTM, who still picks up pennies on the sidewalk,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on September 05, 2012, 09:20:44 AM
I am sure AE and FN would have been aware of this event and, kept a mental note of it. I wouldn't be surprised either if the rescuers considered this option as well. Lambrecht mentioned a reef/beach landing as a contributing factor in the planning of searching the Phoenix group.
 http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Letters/LambrechtGoerner.pdf  (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Letters/LambrechtGoerner.pdf)
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on September 05, 2012, 10:02:52 AM
What we tend to forget, and what might have played a major role in Amelia's thought process at the time, was that a large part of her personal "fortune," as it were, was tied up in that shiny hunk of aluminum. People will do the most incredibly irrational things to save money, just as they will do the most incredibly irrantional things to make or get money.

LTM, who still picks up pennies on the sidewalk,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

Because of the Hawaii-crash, Mr.Putnam was a little bit pressed for money. Amelia knew that. The only way to make money was to promote the successful world-flight, therefore the plane had to be saved. I don't think that's irrational in any way.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Nathan Lapointe on September 05, 2012, 10:35:00 AM
Quote from: Chris Johnson
Latest resaerch Bulletin on website via facebook

Better than average luck
TIGHAR # 3199
Sometimes I can be a pain

Wow, what an incredible find!  The similarity between this and the Niku hypothesis really are stunning.  It really makes you wonder if Noonan had read this article before they left?  No way to tell for sure, of course, but it's fascinating to speculate.

"Hey Amelia, do you see that little island down there, with the ship?  It looks familiar to the one the Croydon landed on near Australia a few months ago ... why don't we try and land on it like they did?"

As an aside, has TIGHAR considered trying to get Hollywood interested in a movie based off of the Niku hypothesis? 

Nathan.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 05, 2012, 01:27:15 PM
As an aside, has TIGHAR considered trying to get Hollywood interested in a movie based off of the Niku hypothesis? 

Let's prove the case first.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Gary LaPook on September 06, 2012, 12:56:37 AM

The question for me (I'm not AE, of course...) would first be whether a reef landing appeared to be more survivable (to the ship and therefore me) than a ditching; having read about and looked at pictures of Niku's reef I'd take the reef (AE remains to be seen, we hope).  Wheels up or down would be next question - wheels down can be an off-airport hazard - but not always.  At Niku I believe I'd try for wheels down, given big fat airwheels like the Electra had - that reef isn't much worse than some strips that bird likely saw in her day.  This other adventure worked out OK, good to see.

Again, none of us can say about AE for sure, of course - but my own consideration for the reef would be doubly positive had I found myself there and knowing of this fascinating precedent - which was brought to us in this string. 

Many thanks, Chris - very cool.

I posted this a few months ago when we were discussing parachutes:
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Back in 1972 a friend of mine, Bob Staehling, had an engine failure one day while flying N7984C, an SNJ, the Navy version of the AT-6, which has the same engine as Earhart's Electra. He made an emergency landing in a plowed farmer's field, the plane flipped onto its back crushing the canopy and killing Bob. Bob had been shot down three times in WW2 and he parachuted into the Pacific each time and floated in his life raft, the first time for nine days, before being saved. We all thought it to be terribly ironic that he had survived being shot down in the Pacific three times and then got killed on dry land only a mile from his house. I wouldn't be at all surprised if his last thoughts had been "gee, I wish I had worn a parachute on this flight."

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Bob's son was riding in the back seat and was severely injured but survived and he told us that his father said, as they were on the approach to the farmer's field, that he was going to put the gear down to try to save the plane and minimize damage. If he had kept the wheels in the wells the plane would have slid on its belly, damaging the belly, but they both would have walked away. I actually suspect his very last thought was "why the $#@^& did I put the ^%$# gear down!"

When I instruct I carefully explain the concept of being "pilot in command" since "command" is not a term used in civilian life. We are all good at making decisions where we choose between good result and bad result. But when you are in command you may have to make decisions where the only choices are bad result and very bad result, the "good result" choice is not on the answer sheet. An army commander might have a mission to take an enemy occupied hill. He thinks it through and if he attacks from the east he estimates he will have fifty killed and if he attacks from the west he estimates he will loose seventy. He doesn't want to have any of his troops killed but he must capture that hill. So he chooses the least bad option, attack from the east. Landing gear up on the reef and doing damage to the belly of the Electra is a bad option but landing gear down and having a wheel get stuck in a hole, flip the plane and kill everybody on board is a really bad result. I can't tell you how many cases I had with dead people because the pilot in command tried to get to a destination when he didn't have the fuel in the tanks to make it, the "good result" choice was not available, rather than make a safe precautionary landing on a dry lake bed and then deal with the hassles, a bad result. So instead they got the really bad result with a bunch of dead people in the plane after running completely out of gas over dangerous terrain.

These  guys were lucky. What if, on the landing roll, one of the main wheels had gotten caught like the tailwheel did, destroyed plane and with dead or injured occupants.

gl
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Gary LaPook on September 06, 2012, 01:07:24 AM
I am sure AE and FN would have been aware of this event and, kept a mental note of it. I wouldn't be surprised either if the rescuers considered this option as well. Lambrecht mentioned a reef/beach landing as a contributing factor in the planning of searching the Phoenix group.
 http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Letters/LambrechtGoerner.pdf  (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Letters/LambrechtGoerner.pdf)
Before we all wet our panties out of excitement over the certainty that Earhart would have known of this event, think about how many flying accidents occur every year in the U.S. that you never hear about, only the major ones get national press coverage and the not major ones might get some local press coverage. This event didn't even have any dead people so just how far and wide do you think this  non fatal event, in a foreign country got disseminated? Quick, how many planes crashed in Zimbabwe last year? Something you can use to answer this question, TIGHAR has been researching the reef landing scenario for almost 30 years and they had never stumbled onto this story before.

The story did get some coverage in local Australian newspapers.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/62775038?searchTerm=Seringapatam%20Reef&searchLimits=
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/68087398?searchTerm=Seringapatam%20Reef&searchLimits=
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/41770062?searchTerm=Seringapatam%20Reef&searchLimits=

The story does not show up in news.google.archive

It was carried in a British flying magazine Flight and I have attached the information page from the issue with the story. How may Americans do you think subscribed to this British publication? Do you think Earhart subscribed to every English language flying magazine in the world? I know I have trouble keeping up with just two, Flying and Pilot, both American magazines and there are many other American magazines so I have never felt a need to subscribe to any foreign ones. But since Earhart had an unlimited budget and unlimited time and staff I guess she could have subscribed to this magazine (but then she must also have subscribed to all the other British magazines.) But why stop there, she must also subscribe to Russian, French, Italian....etc., magazines and her staff could read and translate them for her and synopsize the interesting stories for her. I'm sure she told them to be on the lookout for stories about landing on reefs.

Give me a break!

gl
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on September 06, 2012, 04:05:26 AM
Being a part of a rather small group of pioneering aviators in the 30's it is obvious that each would not know what the other was doing after all, world record attempts were made every ten minutes  ;) I'm pretty sure that AE knew of Charles Lindberg, Amy Johnson, Kingsford Smith etc...and their goals and achievements.
Of course not every air crash makes headline news these days, there are as many aircraft around now as there were cars in those days. Besides, Joe Bloggs flying a string bag from his aunties wooden shack to the docks in Swaziland to pick up a sack of bird seed isn't going to make the newspapers, even if he crashed. Possibly a record attempt to fly from England to Australia might make the newspapers, more so if it ended up going wrong.
AE did actually stop over in Australia on her world record attempt, I'm sure one or two people of the six and a half million population might have mentioned the England to Australia attempts demise.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on September 06, 2012, 07:05:03 AM
Agreed Jeff, it was a good decision to make a trial circuit and touch the wheels down to test the surface. With that good foresight a successful landing was accomplished. The lack of an aviation fuel dump on the reef somewhat curtailed any further progress but, they all escaped without serious injury.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on September 06, 2012, 07:12:30 AM
Bob's son was riding in the back seat and was severely injured but survived and he told us that his father said, as they were on the approach to the farmer's field, that he was going to put the gear down to try to save the plane and minimize damage. If he had kept the wheels in the wells the plane would have slid on its belly, damaging the belly, but they both would have walked away. I actually suspect his very last thought was "why the $#@^& did I put the ^%$# gear down!"

A great--if tragic--story.  May Bob rest in peace.

It shows that even very seasoned pilots do things that you wouldn't have done.  This is why "coulda, woulda, shoulda" never leads to "did."  People make choices.  Sometimes they work out well; sometimes they don't. 
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on September 06, 2012, 07:14:00 AM
Before we all wet our panties out of excitement over the certainty that Earhart would have known of this event, think about how many flying accidents occur every year in the U.S. that you never hear about, only the major ones get national press coverage and the not major ones might get some local press coverage. This event didn't even have any dead people so just how far and wide do you think this  non fatal event, in a foreign country got disseminated?

Two words: Hangar [f]lying.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 06, 2012, 08:02:00 AM
Unless someone comes up with a letter from Paul Mantz to AE in which he says, "In a worst case you could always set down on a reef like those Brits did." we're never going to know whether AE or FN was aware of this incident.  If we argue that she "certainly would have" been aware of the incident we're making the same mistake Gary habitually makes.  The most important thing about this incident is that it shows, beyond doubt, the plausibilty of a course of action that was, until now, purely speculative. 
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 06, 2012, 08:42:50 AM

Two words: Hangar [f]lying.

Now Marty, you are not being very nice to the pilots here. ::)
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on September 06, 2012, 10:05:34 AM

Two words: Hangar [f]lying.

Now Marty, you are not being very nice to the pilots here. ::)

Who do you think taught me the expression?   8)
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 06, 2012, 11:55:12 AM
I can think of one or two suspects. ;D
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Dave Potratz on September 06, 2012, 12:22:04 PM
Before we all wet our panties ...

'nother un-called for insult, I think, Gary, good natured or not.  Nobody's wetting anything.  Just using our imagination for...for...wait for it.....SPECULATION...repeat...spec-u-LAAAAAYYY-tion.

Quote
  (yada, yada, yada)........But why stop there, she must also subscribe to Russian, French, Italian....etc., magazines and her staff could read and translate them for her and synopsize the interesting stories for her. I'm sure she told them to be on the lookout for stories about landing on reefs.

'nother straw man YOU created, then YOU knock 'im down.  Doesn't improve your argument.

Quote
Give me a break!

Gee whiz, please give US a break!

dp
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Rafael Krasnodebski on September 06, 2012, 02:18:41 PM
Gary,
Your first point that a wheels down landing is more dangerous on a rough surface than a wheels up landing makes sense, but the resulting conjecture that it is therefore implausible is contradicted by the simple fact that both the Brits in the "Croydon" and your friend Bob did precisely that. Your second point, that flight accidents and magazines are ten a penny and therefore likely to remain unknown was, I believe, made out of historical context. Those were pioneering days. If what you say was as true then as it is today, Amelia would not have been the media star she was, her demise would not have been news in her day and we probably wouldn't be talking about her now. So sorry, but I prefer your technical and scientific challenges to your behavioural and historical critique.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Gary LaPook on September 06, 2012, 08:25:28 PM
Unless someone comes up with a letter from Paul Mantz to AE in which he says, "In a worst case you could always set down on a reef like those Brits did." we're never going to know whether AE or FN was aware of this incident.  If we argue that she "certainly would have" been aware of the incident we're making the same mistake Gary habitually makes.  The most important thing about this incident is that it shows, beyond doubt, the plausibilty of a course of action that was, until now, purely speculative.
I agree with you Ric, this is incontrovertible proof that you can land a plane on a reef, once. Got any more of these examples?

gl
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: john a delsing on September 06, 2012, 09:05:02 PM
As an aside, has TIGHAR considered trying to get Hollywood interested in a movie based off of the Niku hypothesis? 

Let's prove the case first.

  Ric,
this summer while you were out working, some of us 'back at the office' were playing, and the casting of the coming movie has already been determined; I think it went something like:

NOW PLAYING !

THE  SEVEN  SITE  CASTAWAY of  NIKUMORO

Staring   MADONA  as  the lovable AMELIIA

Fred ‘the nerd’ Noonan played by Gary ‘the nerd’ LaPook
 
Ric G. as Commissioner  Gallagher of the PISS core

*  Casting of which Tighar members will play the Nukuoro Crabs roles is being handled by Andrew as he screens your latest forum posts
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 06, 2012, 09:21:13 PM
I agree with you Ric, this is incontrovertible proof that you can land a plane on a reef, once. Got any more of these examples?

I see your point.  I guess we're going to need to amend our hypothesis that Earhart spent the the rest of the morning shooting landings on the reef at Gardner.  New hypothesis: She and Noonan landed once - just like the crew of the ST-18 Croydon.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Greg Daspit on September 06, 2012, 10:10:03 PM
Here is an example if a plane that "landed" on a reef
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/40863594

This is what the plane looked like. This link said it "ditched".
http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac1/austu/VH-UYW.html

Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on September 07, 2012, 04:42:44 AM
And another. This time a B-24 that was running out of options on the return flight to its base at Funafuti. The reef landing although not perfect was deemed more preferable to a long swim around the Pacific ocean...


"At 0001Z [ local time, DHRS], 29 Dec 1943 I saw Lt Osborne make a crash landing on the reef in the northwest end of the lagoon of Majuro Atoll."

http://marshall.csu.edu.au/Marshalls/html/essays/es-ww2-8.html (http://marshall.csu.edu.au/Marshalls/html/essays/es-ww2-8.html)

Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on September 07, 2012, 05:19:10 AM
Another...

It seems that given the option of ditching into 18,000 ft of water or 2.8 ft of water on a coral reef surrounding that little atoll in the distance, the latter was deemed more preferable.

http://marshall.csu.edu.au/Marshalls/html/B24/B24_Arno.html (http://marshall.csu.edu.au/Marshalls/html/B24/B24_Arno.html)
Wreckage of a Consolidated B-24D "Liberator" off Jab'u, Arno Atoll

Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 07, 2012, 05:25:10 AM
Great pictures Jeff.

Thanks!
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on September 07, 2012, 05:53:23 AM
Great pictures Jeff.

Thanks!

These photos were taken by one of the two other B-24's which nursed the crippled B-24 back. They gave protection from Japanese fighters and dropped supplies to the downed crew. The quality isn't great but under the circumstances what they did was amazing. The B-24 wingspan was too much to get a perfect dry landing, one wing would have been felling trees. Plus the low ground clearance of the B-24 doesn't adhere itself to reef landings. They did a pretty good job though Woody, the plane looks to be in one piece, they all walked away from it, or paddled away from it.
Great pictures indeed, the middle picture is taken from a PBY at a later date, 26 days later, plane already breaking apart.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 07, 2012, 06:10:37 AM
It's truly remarkable that there is no obvious damage. I hope they rescued the crew.

Added: I just read the story. Too bad about the crew. That probably happened more than once.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on September 07, 2012, 06:30:24 AM
It's truly remarkable that there is no obvious damage. I hope they rescued the crew.

Added: I just read the story. Too bad about the crew. That probably happened more than once.

It did, numerous times.
 :(
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 07, 2012, 07:58:43 AM
The B-24 wingspan was too much to get a perfect dry landing, one wing would have been felling trees. Plus the low ground clearance of the B-24 doesn't adhere itself to reef landings. They did a pretty good job though Woody, the plane looks to be in one piece, they all walked away from it, or paddled away from it.
Great pictures indeed, the middle picture is taken from a PBY at a later date, 26 days later, plane already breaking apart.

Looking at Arno on Google Earth it's hard to tell exactly where this happened, much less whether anything of the B-24 remains, but it would be interesting to know.  I'd be willing to bet that there is still wreckage there. Maybe someone with more time than I have can Google Earth the shoreline (it's a big atoll).

One thing that is quite apparent is that the reef morphology at Arno is quite different from either Gardner or Seringapatam.  I don't see a smooth surface out near the reef edge.  I doubt that the B-24 pilot had any thought of saving the airplane.  I imagine that his primary concern was saving lives.  He elected to land as close to shore as possible and he obviously did a great job.

The break-up of the airplane as shown in the middle photo is exactly what I would expect.  It looks like waves striking the port-side vertical stabilizer have caused the empennage to fail at its weakest point - the waist gunner windows.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 07, 2012, 08:17:15 AM
And another. This time a B-24 that was running out of options on the return flight to its base at Funafuti. The reef landing although not perfect was deemed more preferable to a long swim around the Pacific ocean...


"At 0001Z [ local time, DHRS], 29 Dec 1943 I saw Lt Osborne make a crash landing on the reef in the northwest end of the lagoon of Majuro Atoll."

http://marshall.csu.edu.au/Marshalls/html/essays/es-ww2-8.html (http://marshall.csu.edu.au/Marshalls/html/essays/es-ww2-8.html)

Thanks Jeff.  This is an interesting case.  The aircraft is on the protected lagoon-side reef so it hasn't been subjected to anything like the forces present on the reef at Niku.  The wing is largely intact but the fuselage is gone.  Odd.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: pilotart on September 13, 2012, 04:21:12 PM
Kudos to Art Johnson, who I believe is the one who brought to our attention the General Aircraft Ltd ST-18 Croydon aircraft and its 1936 reef landing, complete with pictures, through his Forum posting of 10 days ago (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,253.msg18857.html#msg18857). A really nice piece of research, Art!

Bruce,

Thank you for the credit on this discovery and that  “Better Than Average Luck” (http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/64_ReefLanding/64_ReefLanding.htm)  is a very well presented Research Bulletin that so skillfully outlines all of those uncanny similarities to the Earhart/Noonan's tragic flight less than nine months later.

I had just been doing a Google for the report of Gatty(?) saying to Sir Harry(?) that a Reef Landing would have been most likely for Amelia.  (At least some noted Aviator saying that to a high British Colonial Official.)

I would suspect that there were other 'reef-landings' occurring prior to 1936 and I suppose they weren't usually considered newsworthy.

From Fredrick Crocombe's article in Flight: (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1936/1936%20-%203385.html)

Quote
It now remains for me to say something about our return journey, as far as it went, and in the course of which we seem to have attracted far more interest than if we had made an orthodox return and captured the Australia-England record —all thanks to the fact that it nearly ended in tragedy for ourselves as well as for the aircraft.

From their mutual relationship with the Weems School and Pan Am, Fred should have been quite familiar with Gatty (http://www.historynet.com/harold-gatty-aerial-navigation-expert.htm).

Quote
In 1934, Gatty formed the South Seas Commercial Company with Donald Douglas, with the plan to deliver air service to the islands of the South Pacific. However, the company was soon sold to Pan Am who brought Gatty into the company to organize flight routes in that region.

If we could locate Harold Gatty's statement on reef landings, it would help support Fred's knowledge of this option.
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: pilotart on September 13, 2012, 04:26:33 PM
Bob's son was riding in the back seat and was severely injured but survived and he told us that his father said, as they were on the approach to the farmer's field, that he was going to put the gear down to try to save the plane and minimize damage. If he had kept the wheels in the wells the plane would have slid on its belly, damaging the belly, but they both would have walked away. I actually suspect his very last thought was "why the $#@^& did I put the ^%$# gear down!"

A great--if tragic--story.  May Bob rest in peace.

It shows that even very seasoned pilots do things that you wouldn't have done.  This is why "coulda, woulda, shoulda" never leads to "did."  People make choices.  Sometimes they work out well; sometimes they don't.

Yes, may Bob RIP.  Although I've made many intentional landings in 'plowed fields', gear up would definitely have been the favored choice in that situation.

There is a BIG difference between an engine failed emergency landing and a precautionary landing when you have power available.  Notice in the "Reef in Time" (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1936/1936%20-%203390.html) article quoted in the Report (http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/64_ReefLanding/64_ReefLanding.htm) that Capt Wood first made a 'Touch & Go' trial before his landing and then he was able to steer around those Boulders on roll out after final landing (no steering available after a 'wheels-up' touch-down and it's that 'quick-stop' that kills).

If you watched "Flying Wild Alaska" (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/flying-wild-alaska/bios/jim-tweto-bio.html) you would notice that Jim's 'off-airport' landings looked like 'three-point' but were actually very tail-low 'wheel-landings' (referring to Crocombe's observation).
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Gary LaPook on September 15, 2012, 02:49:32 AM

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Bob's son was riding in the back seat and was severely injured but survived and he told us that his father said, as they were on the approach to the farmer's field, that he was going to put the gear down to try to save the plane and minimize damage. If he had kept the wheels in the wells the plane would have slid on its belly, damaging the belly, but they both would have walked away. I actually suspect his very last thought was "why the $#@^& did I put the ^%$# gear down!"


gl

The photo of me giving some flight instruction in this same aircraft  (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=592.0;attach=1760)that I posted in March shows Robert, Bob's son, in the front seat, we were doing touch and goes. Robert turned out to be a pretty good pilot later.

gl
Title: Re: A reef in time!
Post by: Harry Howe, Jr. on September 20, 2012, 11:25:38 AM
"Robert turned out to be a pretty good pilot later."
Must have been a result of some pretty good instruction by some guy by the name of Mr. Gary LaPook.  You're welcome Gary. 8)