TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Jeff Victor Hayden on August 25, 2012, 01:27:04 PM
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May as well put any comments/observations on HD ROV footage in one place.
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Ok, I'll go first.
Could the cable or rope or whatever it is possibly be the topside radio antenna that ran from the top of each vertical stabilizer to the mast on the fuselage. Looking at the cable I can see where it changes diameter in at least 2 places. Could the larger sections be the loading coils for the antennas just at the attach points to the central mast?
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Doubt it's anything worth analyze in, maybe fishing line, or wire off fish trap.
It's not the same material as rope in 2010 video :)
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Just below the tail of the fish at 00:30 is something sticking out with a cord or wire attached to it. Three pieces of something curved at 00:10, although it looks too thick to be metal. Maybe just coral "flakes"? The bottle or whatever it is at 00:37 looks so distinctive that someone must be able to identify it. Thin wire again at 00:43 to the left. And of course the rectangular piece of thin metal at 00:55.
I don't think I have ever seen HD video with "3D pop" like this. Can't wait to see more and to hear the verdict of the experts.
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New TIGHAR YouTube video: "Comparison SD 1." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvqeseECC8k&feature=em-uploademail)
Guess: This is what they got from Niku VI in 2010.
Edit: I guessed wrong. :D
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Quite a difference indeed. Sure is a debris field and of course it can't be dismissed as coral this time. Ship? looks very fragile, maybe a radio controlled boat for a duck pond? Still be hard to prove aircraft wreckage type, at this stage. ;)
IMHO of course
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The long, thin object looks organic to me (a type of kelp?).
There is also virtually no marine growth on it as one would expect on a man made object after 75 years in tropical waters. The color of the object isn't what I'd expect from an aircraft cable.
At 0:07 minutes there is a starfish in the bottom center of the image. I'm certainly no botanist, but it appears to be in the Linckia Multifora family (http://www.saltcorner.com/AquariumLibrary/browsespecies.php?CritterID=3041),
which inhabits the South Pacific islands. The starfish doesn't really matter. I was trying to evaluate the color balance and relative sizes of objects in the overall image. The images in the link and Wikipedia were close to the color of the starfish in the image. So, it appears the white balance within the overall ROV capture at about 0:07 was close enough to natural to judge other colors in the image. The Linckia Multifora grows to about 6" across per the referenced link. If it's anywhere close to 6" across, the long thin object has a diameter in the 0.75" to 1.0" range. That's too thick for anything other than a heavy duty power cable on a weight sensitive aircraft.
My vote is that the long thing is a relatively new organic object.
The definition of the new ROV video is great, and the multi-colors should be a big help identifying things.
Doug
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Debris Field (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPds8vvYCoU&feature=em-uploademail) uploaded to YouTube.
Ric's note: "This 2 minute video clip encompasses the ROV's entire pass over and past a debris field of man-made objects that may be wreckage from Amelia Earhart's aircraft. The sounds you hear are made by the thrusters that control and maneuver the ROV. "Esmerelda" sings to herself while she works.
"The features in the debris field first appear 51 seconds into the clip. A word of caution: The objects were spotted by a trained forensic imaging scientist. Most people will see nothing but coral. Others will see aircraft parts that aren't there. This is the raw footage. Many specialized techniques will be applied to learn more from this imagery."
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Looks to me as if cable/wire/rope/marine organism seen in both the video clips is the same. As is the rectangular piece of metal.
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Looks to me as if cable/wire/rope/marine organism seen in both the video clips is the same. As is the rectangular piece of metal.
Ah! Maybe that is the point of selecting those two snippets.
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I made this crude approximation of a stereo view of the "tail wheel" artifact. However, maybe due to my age it is very difficult for me to adapt my eyes to make the images merge into 3D. The more I look at this, though, the more the "wheel" looks like a feature in the surrounding object, like a door handle. Wish I could view it stereoscopically as it might be more clear what this is or even more so, what it is not.
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That's a great idea, Ken. It's just a little wide apart (same objects) for me to render it in 3-D, too. Normally by holding it close and focusing in the distance, I can get 3-D pretty easily. I keep seeing a propellor across an engine on its back. I'm wondering how it would look in 3-D and I would like to know more about the scale.
Rick J
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There is the opportunity to get some idea of scale from the HD footage Ricker. This time around there is life, fish starfish etc... Something that was missing in 2010.
Know the species, know the maximum/average size.
Not quite as accurate as a yardstick but, better than nothing, which is what we had last time.
E.g take the estimated size given to piece of wire earlier in the thread, 0.75 to 1 inch. When you then compare that to the two species of fish in the footage you get one species at over one metre in length and the other at just under half a metre. Which isn't quite right. Either the fish are world records+++ or the wire isn't 0.75 to 1 inch. I suspect the latter.
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The video Marty linked in post 7 is very good. Thank you for posting it Marty.
What I see that looks interesting:
From about 1:20 to 1:30 the entire section in the middle looks like it has a lot of controls and panels. The guts of a cockpit?
The structure at in the right of the last shot is interesting, almost looks like the outer skin of a cockpit or just rocks in sand. Too far away to see
An object at the the center / bottom at 1:25 could be part of the main landing gear, its right next to what looked like the main gear seen earlier in the video (the original image released). Maybe the center post of the strut.
Certainly a lot for Jeff Glickman to go thru.
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The only point of the SD and HD footage is to show the difference. The long green thingy is biologic.
We're currently putting together a research bulletin for the TIGHAR website about the debris field investigation and what we've learned so far. It should be up later today.
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Thank's for posting video Ric
I have been going over it this afternoon and found many man made object's
There seem's to be allot of rivet hole pattern's
What i cant find anywhere, is a rivet pattern image for the underneath of an Electra, on website or internet
Anyone any idea's were i could find one
Any help would be appreciated :)
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New Research Bulletin (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/63_DebrisField/63_DebrisField.htm) is up on the TIGHAR website
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Hey Guys!!! This evening, I was going over the new video footage and noticed something really neat. Several days ago I had picked out a black box, and many of you agreed with me on this matter as to its possible existence. This afternoon after watching the new video at between .57-1.05 I clearly noticed that this box did indeed have two locks on it and the carrying handle was down below. Anyway, thought I'd throw that one out to you and see what you? Thanks!!!!!
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Hre's a few images of the 'wire' from the HD
Image 1 shows the anchor point/origin
Image 2 shows one of the changes in diameter
Image 3 shows more chages in diameter with twisted wire appearance
Image 4 shows an odd looking fitting at the other end
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This part of the HD footage confirms it is the same debris field as the in the 2010 footage. More images to follow...
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Randy, Could you post a still of the "box" you are talking about? I couldn't pick it out. Possibly a tool box do you think? LTM- John
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Hre's a few images of the 'wire' from the HD
It's not wire. It's whip coral. We saw lots of the stuff.
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Some images of whip coral...
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=whip+coral&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=2YM7UOLYDcqf0QWLh4CQCg&sqi=2&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=1600&bih=817 (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=whip+coral&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=2YM7UOLYDcqf0QWLh4CQCg&sqi=2&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=1600&bih=817)
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Well, 2 years on and stuff has moved around a bit and deteriorated but, what else would you expect?
All the main players are still in more or less the same places, if a bit worse for wear.
Image 1 from 2010
Image 2 from 2012
Blue 'wire'
Yellow 'reciever'
Red 'RDF'
Black 'the cockpit'
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If it is 'Whip Coral' then this is a possible fit/look alike
whip coral (http://www.scubatravel.co.uk/whipcoral.html)
Does have the variations in diameter etc..
I checked out literally hundreds of images looking for the smooth surface that is the feature of this type of whip coral Chris, all to no avail. I'll keep looking though.
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Thanks for posting the video from Niku VII - the HD quality is incredible! Love hearing that poor little ROV's motors straining to keep the image steady in that current. Let's hope that Niku VIII is able to try and retrieve the debris that Jeff Glickman found - that could be the smoking gun! To my completely un-trained eyes I see something man-made there, definitely a pole of some kind but I don't see Nessie.
Are there plans to release more of the video? I understand several hours were taken, it would be great if TIGHAR could release some more. Or is that something only available to the EPAC committee or "R" members (Researchers)?
Nathan.
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Hey Richie
The rivet pattern is in:
1. Home Page
2. Click Projects
3. Click "What Happened to AE"
4. Click Blank DVD icon-third from bottom of list.
5. Artifacts-1996 Tighatr Tracks
6. Aircraft Skin, Artifact 2-2-V-1, pages 5 thru 7.
I hope that helps you if you haven't already located the report.
Good Luck Rob
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Mr. Barrett...here is a still pic of the box in the main debris field that I saw...possibly a radio box or tool box....and then I'll show you the pic we have of Amelia with the Electra and a box similar to the one I saw at the debris field!!!!
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Thanks, Randy. I see it now. Could be a box. What AE is sitting on appears to me to be a suitcase. Either way, it could be what you have pointed out. LTM -John
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Mr. Barrett...here is a still pic of the box in the main debris field that I saw...possibly a radio box or tool box....and then I'll show you the pic we have of Amelia with the Electra and a box similar to the one I saw at the debris field!!!!
How do you explain that as the picture is enlarged then the rectangular pixelation also increases which tends to give a false effect of cube shaped structures elsewhere in the field - other boxes?
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Mr. Barrett...here is a still pic of the box in the main debris field that I saw...possibly a radio box or tool box....and then I'll show you the pic we have of Amelia with the Electra and a box similar to the one I saw at the debris field!!!!
the Boxes that amelia is sitting on are part of her line of luggage that she endorsed. She also had a clothing line, much like celebrities today. I have no idea whether they were taken along with her or not. searches for her name and luggage or the brand name of airlite will return images of the many many types of luggage made including the ones in this photo. apparently this luggage line was produced with her name until sometime around 1990.
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Mr. Barrett...here is a still pic of the box in the main debris field that I saw...possibly a radio box or tool box....and then I'll show you the pic we have of Amelia with the Electra and a box similar to the one I saw at the debris field!!!!
Hi Randy.
One of the problems with these images is that it is hard to get a sense of scale. If you look at the image I have just posted your Black Box appears in the center just underneath what we are assuming is the fender of the landing gear. If the landing gear is correct this would put the size of your black box at around 1.5 x 1 inch. That would be more in keeping with what i speculated as being a multi electrical connector. Either way I do believe what you have found is a man made object.
(http://home.att.ne.jp/green/etherbod/bigscreen028.jpg)
@ all, (Matty) Sorry for the large size of the image I am struggling to get to grips with the img tag
Edit: Peter, if you click on the "Modify" button and switch to the non WYSIWYG view, you will see how I edited the tag to set the width to 800 pixels. Others who want to see the trick can click on "Quote." MXM
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Edit: Matty, if you click on the "Modify" button and switch to the non WYSIWYG view, you will see how I edited the tag to set the width to 800 pixels. MXM
[/quote]
Thanks.
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Are there plans to release more of the video?
We'll release more if and when there is something more to look at. I'm hesitant to put up hours and hours of underwater video. We'd be swamped with camels-in-the-clouds.
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While we are up in the clouds here's an image which contains a small panel, image 1, red box, and I don't need to inform everyone who has ever sat in a piston engined airplane what the shape of the surrounding area looks like in the black box. Some planes have two, others four. The object in the yellow box looks as though it was once covering the panel, it has what appears to be a handle and locking device. Image 2 is the panel, yellow box and the obvious shape that all piston engined flyers would recognise but, look at the shape in the red circle, where you would expect to see it isn't it? Image 3 is the same panel from a different angle.
Last image is the whole panorama.
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Peter, the picture is 1280 x 960 pixels or 17.77 x 13.33 inches. If you use the Attachments and other options at the bottom of the comment box, you will get a thumbnail of the picture that can be clicked on to download or view. Just insert the file name from where you stored it on your computer. By doing it that way you maintain the pixel aspect ratio and won't be so heavily pixelated when zooming in on the object. No more than 200 percent though or it will lose some definition.
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Peter, you can also, after you have clicked on the "browse" button, go to your stored picture and "double left click' on it which will accomplish the same thing.
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Peter, you can also, after you have clicked on the "browse" button, go to your stored picture and "double left click' on it which will accomplish the same thing.
Woody, you old buzzard, don't be raining on my parade. :P If you do it your way you can only click on the plus with the magnifier glass to enlarge it one size. Doing it in your selected graphics program allows for incremental zooming of the image to your desired result. ;D
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If you do it your way you can only click on the plus with the magnifier glass to enlarge it one size. Doing it in your selected graphics program allows for incremental zooming of the image to your desired result. ;D
You're right, but I wasn't trying to rain on your parade. The one size is frequently enough. :P I probably should have mentioned that. :-[
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New TIGHAR YouTube video: "Comparison SD 1." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvqeseECC8k&feature=em-uploademail)
Guess: This is what they got from Niku VI in 2010.
Marty, I believe this is the SD version of the simultaneously captured Niku VII HD footage which contains the subject debris field. You can see the date in the uper right quadrant.
Ric's recent Research Bulletin "Exploring the Debris Field" http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/63_DebrisField/63_DebrisField.htm lets you play 'em both simultaneously in order to get a better idea on why the subject objects were less prominent in the SD images seen during the actual ROV work.
As Mr Spock would say..."Fascinating".
LTM,
dp
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Marty, I believe this is the SD version of the simultaneously captured Niku VII HD footage which contains the subject debris field. You can see the date in the uper right quadrant.
You're right: I was wrong. :-[
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Marty, I believe this is the SD version of the simultaneously captured Niku VII HD footage which contains the subject debris field. You can see the date in the uper right quadrant.
You're right: I was wrong. :-[
No. You were right Marty. Although the "comparison" HD and SD clips are from the same dive on the same day as the debris field video, they are from a different part of that five and a half hour dive and are offered only as a comparison between the quality of the two grades of video.
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Sheesh ... payday is Thursday. Another check will go off to TIGHAR so that the pro, Jeff, can use his professional eyes and professional computer wizzadry on this.
LTM, who doesn't want to go blind looking for things that are not there,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
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camels in clouds: while i may have missed it, i hadnt yet seen anyone point out these 2 camels (circled in red). the upper one seems to be round with 4 symetrically located round dark objects protruding from the flat top surface along its perimeter. the lower one seems to be a flat rectangular object about the size of small notebook. both these items appear between 0.51 and 1.11 into the video.
additionally... at 1.10 into the HD vid there is a good view of above this round object and above the 'fender'. any camels in the clouds there to anyone?
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Funny looking camel, it looks almost like the back of an instrument/guage where the lights would be inserted to illuminate the face, or maybe the "idiot light". The square one definately looks man made, whatever it is. -John
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Marty, I believe this is the SD version of the simultaneously captured Niku VII HD footage which contains the subject debris field. You can see the date in the uper right quadrant.
You're right: I was wrong. :-[
No. You were right Marty. Although the "comparison" HD and SD clips are from the same dive on the same day as the debris field video, they are from a different part of that five and a half hour dive and are offered only as a comparison between the quality of the two grades of video.
Ah, right, I see that. My bad on that part! :-[ Yet another example that sometimes we see what we want!
dp
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See previous images...
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The object in white box is odd as it is set back from rest of coral
and when you look at surrounding dark area's there is nothing similar in the still image.
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Talking face's on mars, look at Nikumorro face on reef ;D
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Ric
On this over pass looking for supposed wing, did you's notice the square looking hole top left of image
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I see something resembling a nose and mustache on the right side of the photo, clearest image yet
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Morse Code Key-Deformed? Shot in the dark...
Thanks Rob
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See what looks like a metal strap under the clump in the original image released. Maybe it is the strap that held the inboard tanks down.
The object next to it may be a a fuel filling port for the inboard tanks. The picture Jeff just posted shows another fuel port.
The elbow tube and clip next to these two items may be a fuel line elbow connection.
That clump in the middle of the original picture released may be what is left of the fuel tank and it's internal support structure. That black box next to these items may be the box that was on top of the right inboard tank in other pics.
See attached pdf
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Rob
It was my understanding that the morse key was removed from the Electra for this trip
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Matt-You mean when they pulled out (fatal error) the trailing antenna cause it was "too difficult" to reel in?
Gregory-I believe that
l-shape is an illusion (ledge shadow), I thought it was a control colume (see photo in my post about the Morse key). I you watch for it while playing the video, it is there then turns into a ledge.
Thanks Rob
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Sorry Gregory ..... L-shaped
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HD 2012 Tires & Strut with 2010 ROV Comparison.
Any thoughts guys?
Thanks Rob
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I've changed my opinion about a debris object being a wheel assembly. My original post (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,913.msg18697.html#msg18697) was in response to a post by Gregory Lee Daspit (referenced in my original post).
From the original viewing angle (I think taken from a trailer for the Discovery Channel broadcast) it sure looked like the debris was a wheel assembly.
But, when viewing the new HD video Ric posted from a different angle it doesn't look like a wheel assembly. A jpg is attached.
The top image in the jpg shows the location of the "wheel" at t=0.52 secs. The wheel object is flagged in the new Research Bulletin Exploring the Debris Field (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/63_DebrisField/63_DebrisField.htm) as the upper right hand arrow.
The middle two images show an enlargement of the debris "wheel" and a photo of the real wheel posted by Gregory. I altered the color and sharpness to make it easier to see things.
The bottom image shows a different view of the "wheel" at t=1.19 secs. It's clear, at least to me, the tire is really made of up a couple independent rocks or pieces of coral.
Edit: I attached a second jpg (Not_a_Wheel_Explanation.jpg) showing what appears to be the rock/coral/sand components making up the wheel assembly.
My error - oops.
Having the video sure makes it easier to analyze what's in the images.
Does anyone know if there is a 'speedometer' in the ROV? If we knew the speed of the ROV it would allow a good estimate of scale since the image would sweep past the same linear distance independent of height. The problem with using some other reference object (like I did with a starfish) is that the estimated scale is only as good as the size estimate of the reference object and is only valid at that distance. Anything closer will measure too large; anything farther away will measure too small.
p.s., I really like the underwater contour maps in the Research Bulletin.
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It was my understanding that the morse key was removed from the Electra for this trip
There were two keys to start with.
There are two people who claim to have had one of her keys (http://tighar.org/wiki/Morse_code_key_questions) after she was lost.
2 - 2 = 0 -- if the accounts are reliable.
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An additional POSSIBLE coorelation from HD 2012 to Jeffs "here's another one" 2010 photo with comparison.
????
Thanks Rob
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An additional POSSIBLE coorelation from HD 2012 to Jeffs "here's another one" 2010 photo with comparison.
????
Thanks Rob
Rob and Doug,
Interesting. Look at the photo that Doug submitted of the plane wheel, fender, strut, etc turned sideways. Observe the shape of the fork (maybe not the right term, thats what its called on a bicycle). Now compare that to the photo that Rob submitted of the 'hub in the 'HD 2012 Tires & Strut with 2010 ROV Comparison" post.
In that photo, look above the circle of the hub at what lies directly between the words ""seconds' hub" and "hub". There is an object there in the shape of a large lever or giant tuning fork.
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Objects may seem to disappear when looked at different angles because in one angle they are visible and in the other they are covered up. The wheel assembly looks like a wheel assembly from the side because it may very well be a wheel assembly. That you can’t see it from the top may be because it is covered by coral or a slide that covers the top of the wheel but not the side of it. So it looks like coral or sand from the top.
I think a lot of objects may not be visible from above since they are at the bottom of a cliff. Falling silt and rocks are covering them from the top, over 75 years worth. They may only be visible when viewed from the side. Also corals growing around and over them may be hiding stuff. it grows in all sorts of patterns and can make a thin piece that viewed from the side is hardly noticable but from the top it looks like a big rock. Or they may not be seen from a different angle because they are not there. In the case of the wheel assembly I beleive that it may very well be there. You may see it from the side but from the top it may be covered except for the wheel strut which is higher.
Similar hide and seek for the center element of the strut may be happening. You can't see it until it is uncovered for only a breif part of the pass around 1:24 to 1:25. It may be broken away from the wheel struts similar to what happened in the Luke field crash.
See attachment
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Hey Brice
I see the fork as well. I spun the example 180 degrees (I think it looks more like Jeffs 2010 original find), your fork is apparent but I didn't label it (it's getting crowded). Before I turned it, I expanded it a little more and realized maybe the tire is at the new red annotations (would that be too large of a tire?) Your fork could be for the "second" tire huh?
Hey Gregory
Yes that black rectangle did resemble a tire until you are able to fly right over it. I have not searched with a frame grab the behind the black rectangle (but in line of sight to the original 2012 HD Still Photo). There is a small open sand area behind the black rectangle on the far right I "may" have seen a Strut butt end on video replay yesterday.
My current posts are from 1:58 to 2:01. Feel free to super impose anything I submitted, I don't have those skills yet.
Thanks Guys
Rob
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Doug feel free to Doctor up my posts as well, I meant that for you too.
Thanks Rob
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From the top, what is left of the tire may be hidden by falling sediment and/or coral growth.
Rob and/ or Doug, Can either of you detach a good image at 1:25? At the bottom, center, there may be the landing gear center post with the hole where the pivot beam was. Its right next to where I think the wheel strut and axle are, in a vertical position.
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Here You go Gregory 1:25 Grab
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Here You go Gregory 1:25 Grab
LOL, I was just going to post the same frame grab.
It's been very interesting playing the video back at a 25% rate in VLC. There's a lot of information that's lost in static frame grabs. In the "Wheel" frame grabs posted here (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,933.msg19105.html#msg19105), when altering the colors to something a little more natural and viewing at a slow rate it appears that the area where the wheel/tire should be is empty.
I'm using the Easy YouTube Video Downloader for Firefox to grab the high def video and the same video player Rob is using (VLC from www.videolan.org). Both are free. VLC is great. I've used it for years. I've just started using the Video Downloader and so far so good.
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So Doug I see several short sections of pipe or tube where Gregory was asking for a shot, is it not there? How do you slow the play back rate?
CHECK THIS OUT! Lol
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How do you slow the play back rate?
See attached, right click on playback rate, move the cursor to the bottom (25% playback although not obvious).
(Edited to add:)
Also see "Tools/Preferences/Hotkeys" in "Show Simple Settings" (see lower left hand corner) or "Tools/Preferences/Interface/Hotkeys" in "Show All Settings" for some useful hotkey settings. Ex: space bar pauses/resumes play, "+" goes faster, "-" goes slower. You can also define short, medium and long jumps forward or backward in time.
You can also set Bookmarks (Playback/Bookmarks/Manage Bookmarks or select a bookmark). ^B brings up the bookmark menu. Makes it easy to jump from interesting place to interesting place.
^E brings up the audio/video enhancement control panel. Makes is easy to adjust image hue or to magnify/sharpen the image.
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Thanks Doug, I'll check it out.
Rob
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Guys----As we are looking at the these still pics, and a short video, that has been paused, rotated, disected, enlarged, etc, we have to remember that when Ric and Wolfgang were in the control room looking at the video feed from the ROV, it was REAL TIME, without the benefit of being able to really study it. Granted, if they had been able to see a big piece of aluminum with NR16020 painted on it, it would have been a different story I'm sure. But, as we are looking an studying this ourselves, I'm sure there are others that are also looking at it, as well as the other video, and still pics.
Actually, I came to the conclusion that it might be months before all the information has been culled through. This was a recon trip. Gathering the information needed to make an intelligent decision to go back or not and do this type of search again. Personally, I think so. They have seen 'thing's". They might have hit on the actual debris field of the Electra, or missed it by 20 feet. Even though there was some really good equipment used, this isnt an exact science. I assure you that the information gathered on this expedition will enhance the next one, and a slightly different appreach will be taken. IMHO.
Tom
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Hey Brice
(would that be too large of a tire?) Your fork could be for the "second" tire huh?
Rob,
To be honest, I was thinking it was too small for one. So I'll leave the size analyzing up to the pros... until I spot the plane's door of course. ;)
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Due to the quality of the high definition footage I feel that the emphasis has now changed from the 2010 debris field, 'it's coral' argument to, can it be determined that the debris is the Electra. A good few hours of HD footage was gathered which will be a great help. Progress of some sort anyhow.
IMHO of course
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Due to the quality of the high definition footage I feel that the emphasis has now changed from the 2010 debris field, 'it's coral' argument to, can it be determined that the debris is the Electra. A good few hours of HD footage was gathered which will be a great help. Progress of some sort anyhow.
IMHO of course
For those who may have forgotten (not Jeff necessarily, but perhaps for some of us newbies) a little reminder re "coral growth or no growth": Ric Gillespie's post dated 27 Oct 2011 touched on this topic (of coral growth) relative to depth of sunlight penetration to about 300 meters or 984 feet, the shallower the depth, the more vigorous coral growth. I suspect a lot of the coral plating we see on suspected/possible plane parts below the depth of sunlight is in fact dead and no longer active; it likely went down the reef slope clinging to the man-made parts it grew on higher up and earlier in time. We all agree that a fraction of what we see also is silt as well, also filtering constantly down the reef slope from above. Looks like the reef slope is constantly shedding debris of all sizes from boulders to pebbles, some possibly clinging to man-made parts of various origins, but coral growth arrested below the zone of sunlight. Just thought I'd toss this topic into the mix in case it helps out with anyone's observations of the HD ROV footage. :)
Hatch
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Suspect aircraft debris from cockpit.
Thanks Rob
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Retransmission of first photo.
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Some more folks, I would say the control lever is aircraft, early 20th century marine would probably be a heavy brass handle. Maybe some one can match it ti a cockpit photo-the retract handle for the landing gear perhaps. There is stuff all over down there.
Thanks Rob
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Rob, Thanks for the image grab.
The large center post at the bottom is what I was trying to look at better. There is some coral in the way so it is easier to see if you follow it in the video (1:22 to 1:26)
If you look at what may be the wheel strut, as annotated with a big arrow in the original image released, and follow this area as the ROV moves over it in the video, you should see what may be the “center post” coming up from that spot at 1:22 to 1:24, bottom of picture.
The center post can be seen in the crash picture from the Luke Field crash. It is a large diameter tube and has a dome on top.
The object in the ROV video has a dome, partially covered by coral or silt. It may have a hole in it where the cross bar was ripped off.
There are other parts around this including a screw, tube and some other man-made items.
See pdf below
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Congradulations Ric, 23 years of believing no matter what the nay sayers thought!
Dash panel and probable radio.
Thanks Rob
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Ops Sorry
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Sorry all the attachments aren't going out. One more time.
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Rob, to the left of the square box you have labled "guage" at about 10 o'clock and just right of the whip coral there is something round set back in just a bit. It reminds me of either a knob or maybe the end of a push-pull switch or cable. Thoughts. LTM, who can't quite see what you see with the viewer and screen, but thinks there is something there. -John
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John, it does look round and man made, but it blurs out to quickly when I zoom in, there are numerous other objects there. The studs on the distinctive object are similar to ones on the control column mounting quadrant right down to a machined groove, I'm trying to get it figured out with the video shots and a topside photo.
Gregory, after you asked for the grab I was able to see them as well. If you keep moving right, there a 2 small points of slope that come out with sand between. There "may" be a tire in the second bay proped up vertical against the bank, strange tall object behind it. Horizontal strut ( butt on) laying on second point of land. I don't want another tire in the mix,lol.
Thanks Rob
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A follow up to the previous images I posted before going onto the 'not coral or 1911 steam freighter' images.
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Again
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Looks like a release to open a panel to me. Would the Electra have external panels that would release with such a fastener? -John
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In this part of the HD footage everything is blue (first image) which obviously isn't the natural color scheme. The fish were a lovely color previously so, reverting the fish back to their previous wonderful colors will reveal the true colors of not only the fish but the surroundings (second image). Now you can see the thin aluminium colored skin. Where it is torn/ripped it has bent upwards to reveal the underside color. There are lots of bits like these in these images and the rest of the footage.
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A few images of 1911-1929 steamship equipment in case you need to identify it amongst the 'other'. Bearing in mind due to the nature of the work it was designed for most of the electrical gear is 3 phase running well in excess of 415V and the amperage would fry a buffalo in less than 1 second, plus you would need to bend the electrical cabling with your knee.
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Hello Jeff
I've been wondering about the amount of brass down there and how clean it appears to be, what is your opinion on the survivability of the ships radio equipment in the fire, was the entire ship gutted by fire? Brass melts at around 1700 degress F.
Thanks Rob
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Well Rob, the ships radio equipment must have been updated on numerous occasions since the ship was built in 1911 to comply with the ever changing regulations. For example the Titanic disaster forced a plethora of changes regarding the safety of ships at sea. Any information on the type and year of manufacture of said radio kit aboard the Norwich city would be helpful in assessing survivability. Of course the radio kit would have been in the radio room which would have to be open to elements to spill it out so, at an unknown year from 1929 to ? when the radio room finally took the plunge into the Pacific, providing it didn't get incinerated in an enclosed fire before hand that is. Be interesting to find out what they had aboard for comms, radar would have been useful ::)
IMHO of course
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Hello John Barrett
You are indeed correct, that is something maybe a gauge (spelled correctly, lol) I was looking in the wrong spot. Just below the ledge your object is perched on is another item.
Rob
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Looks like one of the fuel tank selector switches/levers (or are they the engine magneto switches--never been in an Electra) from the lower-center instrument pedestal--below the throttles/RPM/propeller pitch controls. For reference, look at the picture on the cover of Ric's book, "Finding Amelia".
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The fuel selectors in the photo look to be black-faced with white lettering. This looks like it has white around the perimeter with a black center area. it does look like some type of selector switch though. It reminds me of a battery selector switch where you can choose battery a, battery b, or both. In another thread Richie is looking for info on the Electra's wiring system. Does anyone have photos of the ignition/battery switches used in the Electra? LTM- John
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OK so let's take a closer look at the debris field and see what anomolies appear...
Take a look at this strand of 'whip coral' and see the strange behaviour of it as it attempts to head towards the source of light at the surface of the ocean. After heading up towards the surface it appears to give up and perform a number of loop de loops before heading back into the gloom. It is a very strange shape indeed...
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I pointed out earlier in this thread how the tropical fish can give some idea of scale in the HD video footage. Well, that's not the only use they have. This was pointed out to me by my next door neighbours little girl, 7 years old, whom I was babysitting while her parents went out for the evening. While trying to keep her amused for an hour or so :'( I decided to show her some of the TIGHAR research and website. Not being particularly interested in navigation charts or aircraft she spent most of the time watching the HD video footage and came up with an observation that had completely escaped me. She took great delight in pointing out all the colourful fish to me while obviously ignoring the debris field. The reference she made to the 'fishes homes' caught my attention though. It was her way of explaining how the fish swim into and, out of the 'purple caves', her way of describing the purple coloured debris you see in the video footage. It's not a solid mass, it's hollow, it's something very thin that is covering an underlying structure, the fish can swim into it and out of it, sometimes in one way and, out another. I missed that, ain't kids great ;)
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This topic will now be locked and redirected to the Current Status of Niku VII Video Analysis (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,969.0.html)