TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => The Islands: Expeditions, Facts, Castaway, Finds and Environs => Topic started by: Monte Chalmers on July 27, 2012, 01:46:00 PM
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I'm not expecting this subject to add anything constructive to the Amelia search, but I'm curious about a couple of things. These and beaching the Electra, which has been answered in another thread are all that I have.
There are many threads here about the Norwich City, and many more reference it in one way or another. Such as my thread about beaching the Electra - the subject was changed to tying down the Electra with items that might be found on the Norwich City. And then there is the one about painting an SOS. Every one of these thing require something I’m not finding written anywhere: how do you get on board? I mean with the keel of an ocean-going ship resting on dry land - how does one get on the deck? I wouldn’t think the ladder would drop down that far. I can imagine myself standing there looking up and no way to get up. My point here is perhaps Amelia wasn't able to board the Norwich City.
OK - I somehow can get on deck. I can tell you - one look at the island coconut crabs and I’d be seriously considering the ship to be home! :D I know that there was a fire, but I think that it wasn’t the whole ship and that there would be rooms with beds and a place out of the rain. One place I read where when the crew was rescued and abandoned the ship, there were a lot of provisions left behind. I know the argument about it being too hot to stay on board - cut some stuff off the palm trees and made a lean-to on deck. The deck is elevated and just might offer a freeze. In fact, this afternoon I was up on my house roof - and I swear, there was a breeze I didn't notice on the ground! - and it made me think of writing this thread. Also there should have been containers useful for collecting rain water.
Since the ship was so secure on the beach for years.................... I know, ................woulda coulda shoulda !
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http://tighar.org/wiki/TIGHAR_Tracks
You will find images of Norwich City among these links at low tide.
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http://tighar.org/wiki/TIGHAR_Tracks
You will find images of Norwich City among these links at low tide.
I'm not sure I went to where you were linking. I got taken to Track listed volumes. I went to the left side and entered Norwich City - which took me where I'd already studied - this is where I was looking at photos that made me doubt my ability to board. I'm far from young but might compare with a woman and an injured man. Anyway it doesn't look easy. One place in what I just mentioned it was said a group of men entered from the waterline rear and were going to try climbing up inside - but put off doing it for a later time. Then they never got back to doing it. This doesn't sound inviting.
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It was possible to walk thru a hole torn in the port side and climb up to the forepeak.
From Dick Evans
"Regarding the name Norwich City. As I recall the name could be read on the bow of the ship (1944) although it was not very plain. On one occasion several of us walked thru the hole torn in the port side of the hull and climbed up to the forepeak. From there we could see several places where the name was painted on equipment. For the next few months we threatened to climb back up and work our way to the bridge, which was in good shape. But like most things, this got lost in the scope-watching and similar exciting things we were doing. Don't know if this is any use to you or Lawrence, but there it is."
Dick Evans
Ric noted in a reply to this that the bridge was destroyed. However I think he saw some high up structure intact even though it may not have been a bridge.
edit: The picture (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/15_Carpentersdaught/15_Evaluation.html) taken thru the hole was from 1938
My thoughts on using the ship as shelter here (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,689.15.html):
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Monte brings up some good points and I agree. SAR 101...stay with the wreakage (crash site). Awhile back I asked the question: Why would they abandon the crash site and an outstanding landmark like the Norwich City to hike off to the Seven Site location? Most posters thought that I was way off on my question. As for me and my background.......you couldn't have pried me from that location.
Paul John
TIGHAR 3215R
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Paul John
A castaway may have had to leave to search for water and the wreck may have already been washed off by then.
But before leaving their N.C. home it seems logical to leave a message on the ship which is an "outstanding landmark"
See Possible SOS on Norwich City thread (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,689.0.html) for pictures of where an SOS could have been painted
Attached is a pdf on how it could be done
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.......you couldn't have pried me from that location.
And to take it a step further.......
There may have been an abundance of materials on the Norwich City with which to provide a strong signal for searchers to see. If not the ship itself possibly in flames.
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From the description of the Norwich City in 1929, it had “large rents” in the port side.
“Star. side buckled in, large rents port side, amidships, bottom must be torn out from fore peak to No. 4 hold”
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Norwich_City/NorwichCity4.html
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The stern didn't come loose until a storm during the NZ survey stage.
One possibility is after the plane washed off the reef it floated along the edge until it got stuck or wedged under the stern. Then later when the stern broke lose, it squashed the plane and later took it down the seamount with it.
However, I think I read where Andrew dived on that area and didn't see evidence of marks left from a slide.
It is possible the stern stopped the plane from floating away long enough for it to eventually sink before it got too far away
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Doesn't it stand to reason that something lowered the life boats to the water? Maybe that something was close enough to be reached....
Also, I agree that a "rational" person would stay near that wreck (assuming they found it), especially if their own wreck was no longer visible. But if they were also using the plane's radio, and if the plane were not near the ship, that might preclude this option.
Just a few thoughts.
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Attached is a PFF showing where I think stairs, crew quarters and the collision bulkhead were.
Note the tanks above where the toilets should be.
They may have been inviting if someone looking for water saw them but they may have just contained sea water.
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I have attached an image and marked area in red, I have only just noticed there appears to be a white panel with print on it
Anyone else noticed this before.
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Richie,
I was always only seeing the big SOS on the bow
I think that white frame looking thing you highlighted are rails. Look at the pdf I attached in the previuous post and see the photo of the ship at the dock. You can see the white rails on the other side of the ship.
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I don't think it's rail's but will check it out anyway thank's Gregory
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If the Navy Float Planes (or the ...Itaska...) had seen an "SOS" painted on that obviously ancient hulk of a derelict shipwreck, they would likely have associated it with the long-ago rescue of the Norwich City's crew.
Now, if they Had Painted "AE" or something...
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Now Fred being a current rated Ship's Master :o would/could ::) have recognized that the Stern of that Norwich City would be the easiest 'boat' access to the Island as the Bevington Crew did on their visit a few months later. This would have increased the likelihood of using the derelict as 'home-base' if possible.
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how do you suggest that they wrote an "SOS" on the ship?
Most people who described the Norwich City as being “gutted” did not board it. Dick Evans did board it a
and described a structure in good shape (http://tighar.org/wiki/SS_Norwich_City).
From looking at some plans (http://propnomicon.blogspot.com/2011/11/tramp-steamer-plans.html) of tramp steamers the paint could have been kept forward of the bulkhead where ship stores were kept. Since it was raining when the ship caught fire, water could have been collecting on the forecastle deck plating where it then poured over this bulkhead (http://www.marine-knowledge.com/naval_architecture/bulk-head.html) between the #1 hold and the forecastle. The hold was empty so lack of cargo should have lessened the fuel to burn. So the fire may have had to cross an empty hold, get through a water fall, then through the steel collision bulkhead designed to isolate parts of the ship from fires. This could have prevented the fire from getting to the other side. Or not. There is not much information on the condition of the inside of the ship from someone who boarded it. The paint could have survived a number of ways. It could have been in an area forward that did not burn. It could have been on a deck that collapsed into a hold filled with water. It could have been in a fire locker and survived because of lack large amounts of fuel to burn around it.
Here is how it could be done:
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If the Navy Float Planes (or the ...Itaska...) had seen an "SOS" painted on that obviously ancient hulk of a derelict shipwreck, they would likely have associated it with the long-ago rescue of the Norwich City's crew.
Now, if they Had Painted "AE" or something...
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Now Fred being a current rated Ship's Master :o would/could ::) have recognized that the Stern of that Norwich City would be the easiest 'boat' access to the Island as the Bevington Crew did on their visit a few months later. This would have increased the likelihood of using the derelict as 'home-base' if possible.
All good points
Writing "AE here camped SE" was my first thought. I think they could have wrote that on the bottom from the reef but tides washed it off. I also think if the search plans saw a fresh SOS they would have reported it which could mean that it wasn't written until after they flew over. Their orginal plan for a signal may have failed. For example they tried to start a fire and didn't have time, water washed away an SOS in the sand, the flare gun didn't work or was lost, their "markers" didn't work. I think the SOS may have needed some banners or markers with it to indicate a fresh SOS so people didn't think it went with the ship. Those things that are fresh may have blown away. See thread on possible S.O.S (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,689.0.html) on Norwich City". The N.C survivors did not write it. They had already made contact by radio and the ship was still on fire when the rescuers arrived.
Also boarding the stern from the sea is a way people who moored to it, did board it.
It was also possible to board it from the large rent in the port side just by walking in from the reef at low tide
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While this is a bit of drift from the OP. This thread made me think a lot about the ship and the theory of the plane being washed off the reef. Given many say it would float until torn apart I have often wondered if it could have been washed into the side of the NWC. I have looked at photo's with an eye to see scrape marks but few photo's show the North side of the ship very well or that close. Yeah I know long shot but its this kind of sideways view that I think will help spur things along.
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Anyone know if the portholes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porthole) were open in any pictures of the shipwreck?
Since they were in a storm (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Norwich_City/NorwichCity3.html#4) when they hit the island they should have been closed.
If someone was to stay on the crew bunk deck for long they may have tried to get them open for ventilation.
However, I think the better choice to stay is the two little stair houses if they were going to be on the look out and get good breezes high up.
I still think they wouldn't stay there long. Just long enough for water to run out, then leave a message
The document (http://tighar.org/wiki/SS_Norwich_City) attached shows two decks for ships stores in the forepeak
The decks should be about where the "S.O.S (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,689.0.html)" is. If paint did survive it could have been right there.
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As i've posted before, a grounded ship is not the nicest environment to stay on. Grinding metal and groaning as the tide comes and goes would keep the nerves on a taught string.
OK...I'm castaway on Niku; one look at them coco crabs and the grinding and groaning of the NC is a small price to pay.
LTM,
Don
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Don,
you've got to get on a hulk on shore in tide to appreciate it. Natives and coasties managed Bigus so AE/FN could have (should have, would have etc..)
Must be a language barrier because I don't understand a word your saying ??? and what is a "Bigus" ??? All I was comenting to was that fact that if "I" had the choice, "I" am gonna take the lesser of 2 evils... Grinding and groans are noises whereas a coco crab trying to take a chunk outta you is painful.
LTM
Don
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Must be a language barrier because I don't understand a word your saying ??? and what is a "Bigus" ??? All I was comenting to was that fact that if "I" had the choice, "I" am gonna take the lesser of 2 evils... Grinding and groans are noises whereas a coco crab trying to take a chunk outta you is painful.
LTM
Don
I think he meant birgus latro those great ugly coconut crabs.
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In looking at the picture I would propose that the painting on the side of the ship was accidental. How so? In that the stores including paint may have broken open after impact and rocking to further run down the starboard side of the crew quarters and out seawater ports or other rents in the side.
The ship is leaning to starboard in the photo on the beach , the paint or waterever could have just run down that side of the ship out of the ports or tears and encrusted itself on the side. No decernable letters are there.
just an opinion
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"I" am gonna take the lesser of 2 evils... Grinding and groans are noises whereas a coco crab trying to take a chunk outta you is painful.
My original thought exactly!
Is it paint or Guano? Think thats been discussed before :)
:D I don't know that answer, but the birds around the ship is something I'd considered when I was going to make it my home. I read in another thread about one of the islands that has millions of birds - you only had to get near to smell them. ;D
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Living with the thought that at any moment that groan could mean the ship does something that could well be fatal to you both
Chris,
Where is this documentation about this "groan"? Or is it just an understanding that all grounded ships do it? And wouldn't it make a difference how much of the NC was high and dry? I don't know about such things - I wasn't in the navy - retired from the USAF a long time ago. But the next time I talk with my son, who's an old USN man - I'll ask. *just made a note* ;D
Those crabs and rats are animus! - maybe the crabs. ;D
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To add to the creepiness ...
In the TIGHAR account by Otiria O'Brian there is mention of finding human bones around the ship , from the dead sailors ? washing out of their graves or still in situ; as well as an islander who died in the ship whilst scavenging in the 40's or 50's , then the ship was put off limits to the colony.
In some shipwrecks entire decks become so weak that the weight of a human could peirce the floor and let them drop a few decks...not something to look forward to ...
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OK, Chris - you're maybe right. :) If what you say was true, I might well have agreed it wasn't a place to call home. In hind sight, though, the NC was there many years - it was securely grounded.
In the TIGHAR account by Otiria O'Brian there is mention of finding human bones around the ship , from the dead sailors ? washing out of their graves or still in situ; as well as an islander who died in the ship whilst scavenging in the 40's or 50's , then the ship was put off limits to the colony.
Hi George. I read that one too.
Also in my reading, I came across this: http://tighar.org/wiki/File:Contour_Map_NZ_Aviation_Survey_(Wigram_AFB_Archives).jpg
(http://tighar.org/wiki/File:Contour_Map_NZ_Aviation_Survey_(Wigram_AFB_Archives).jpg)
The NZ Aviation Survey - sort of shows the NC beached about half its length. I read that the ship was riding high because it had no cargo - and it must have also been moving pretty fast .
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OK, Chris - you're maybe right. :) If what you say was true, I might well have agreed it wasn't a place to call home. In hind sight, though, the NC was there many years - it was securely grounded.
In the TIGHAR account by Otiria O'Brian there is mention of finding human bones around the ship , from the dead sailors ? washing out of their graves or still in situ; as well as an islander who died in the ship whilst scavenging in the 40's or 50's , then the ship was put off limits to the colony.
Hi George. I read that one too.
Also in my reading, I came across this: http://tighar.org/wiki/File:Contour_Map_NZ_Aviation_Survey_(Wigram_AFB_Archives).jpg
(http://tighar.org/wiki/File:Contour_Map_NZ_Aviation_Survey_(Wigram_AFB_Archives).jpg)
The NZ Aviation Survey - sort of shows the NC beached about half its length. I read that the ship was riding high because it had no cargo - and it must have also been moving pretty fast .
Just the inertia of a ship weighing what the Norwich City did even travelling at maybe 5 to 6 knots would have put her half way up on that reef. At launching, the gross tonnage was calculated to be 5633.2; her displacement was 8730 tons. Pictures (http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/thumb/f/f6/Norwich_City_Aground_%28Note_White_Paint_on_Bulwark%29_%28Wigram_AFB_Archives%29.jpg/300px-Norwich_City_Aground_%28Note_White_Paint_on_Bulwark%29_%28Wigram_AFB_Archives%29.jpg) in this link (http://tighar.org/wiki/SS_Norwich_City) shows how far she was up on that reef. The average high tide on Nikumaroro is only @4.6 feet which wouldn't have made a difference with her displacement.