TIGHAR

Chatterbox => Extraneous exchanges => Topic started by: C.W. Herndon on July 07, 2012, 08:12:13 AM

Title: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 07, 2012, 08:12:13 AM
I have been trying to determine what type of Omega "start stop clocks" listed in the Luke Field Inventory that Fred may have had in the aircraft. See last page of the inventory below. On line number 117, it lists "4, clocks, start and stop 'Omega' ". 

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Luke_Field.html

There are 3 "clocks" visable on the navigator's table shown in this picture, blown up below.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,269 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,269)

Since there are only 3 of the "clocks" visable on the table, does anyone have any idea where the other one may have been? Spare maybe?

Also, I have spent hours on the internet trying to identify the "clocks". I have looked at the official Omega site and all of the other sites I could find that either collected or sold Omega products. I have not found even one example of an Omega product of that size that has either a black dial or the unusual arrangement of the knobs seen in the picture.

Any ideas here?



Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: John Ousterhout on July 07, 2012, 09:54:36 AM
"Stop Clock" is another name for what we now call a "stop watch".  One may likely be with his Octant.  They're used to mark the exact instant a sight is taken.   I would assume Fred had 4 of them to allow taking 4 sightings quickly, then taking them back to his work table to record the readings and make his calculations.
My 1940's octant has a clip to hold a stopwatch in a convenient position that allows the start/stop button to be pressed without taking your eye away from the eyepiece. I've seen similar clips on sextants.
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: pilotart on July 07, 2012, 12:29:44 PM
Air Navigation by Weems quotes a letter from Fred:
Quote
Timepieces carried were a Longines Civil Time chronometer, and a Longines second-setting watch.  The latter was set to correct G.C.T. at all times by checking with the chronometer.  This watch was of the arm type, but the strap was removed, and the watch clips on the octant were adjusted to accommodate the beckets on each side of the watch.  I prefer such arrangement to carrying the watch on the arm.

Granted, he is describing Pan Am Clipper, but he says that
Quote
...the choice of equipment may be governed entirely by the individuals personal preference or the Company's desires in the matter.  ...most of the instruments had been used extensively by the writer and had proven satisfactory

The Luke Field list may pertain to Harry Manning's timepieces and Fred may have not left his on-board following that ground loop.
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 07, 2012, 01:08:37 PM
"Stop Clock" is another name for what we now call a "stop watch".  One may likely be with his Octant.  They're used to mark the exact instant a sight is taken.   I would assume Fred had 4 of them to allow taking 4 sightings quickly, then taking them back to his work table to record the readings and make his calculations.
My 1940's octant has a clip to hold a stopwatch in a convenient position that allows the start/stop button to be pressed without taking your eye away from the eyepiece. I've seen similar clips on sextants.

Thanks John. I am not a navigator so every little bit helps.
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 07, 2012, 01:12:52 PM
Air Navigation by Weems quotes a letter from Fred:
Quote
Timepieces carried were a Longines Civil Time chronometer, and a Longines second-setting watch.  The latter was set to correct G.C.T. at all times by checking with the chronometer.  This watch was of the arm type, but the strap was removed, and the watch clips on the octant were adjusted to accommodate the beckets on each side of the watch.  I prefer such arrangement to carrying the watch on the arm.

Granted, he is describing Pan Am Clipper, but he says that
Quote
...the choice of equipment may be governed entirely by the individuals personal preference or the Company's desires in the matter.  ...most of the instruments had been used extensively by the writer and had proven satisfactory

The Luke Field list may pertain to Harry Manning's timepieces and Fred may have not left his on-board following that ground loop.

Thanks Art. Since I have had no luck with the Omega clocks/watches I will start on the Longines line and see where that leads.
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 14, 2012, 09:15:58 AM
I have continued to search for the clocks/watches that FN might have used while performing his duties as navigator on the "second attempt".
I have found two photos, while not the best, of his wrist-watch that seem to show one that does not have a "start/stop function". (References here pictures below.) Can anyone see something that I don't or know of any other pictures that might have a good view of his watch? It is my understanding that this type of function is critical in the ability to take accurate celestial readings.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,282 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,282)
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,901 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,901)
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: Michael Calvin Powell on July 14, 2012, 11:51:04 AM
Could the "Longines Civil Time Chronometer" have been a pocket watch?  There was a version (at least as of 1939) that was expressly made for aviation navigation:

http://stricklandvintagewatches.com/products-page/pocket-watches/1939-mens-longines-pocket-watch/ (http://stricklandvintagewatches.com/products-page/pocket-watches/1939-mens-longines-pocket-watch/)
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 14, 2012, 03:48:23 PM
Thanks Michael, It looks like another close but no cigar. You did give me a new web site to follow. I hadn't found this one before.  :)

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: John Ousterhout on July 14, 2012, 09:48:27 PM
I'm no expert, but I've not heard of any commonly available (read: "inexpensive enough for Fred to afford") 1930's-era navigation chronometers that were intended to be worn on a wrist or carried in a pocket, and there's a good reason not to.  The only ones I'm vaguely familiar with would live in a padded box secured to the navigation table, to protect them from vibration, bumps, and temperature changes. 
As I understand it, to take a sighting you clip a portable stop-watch to the sextant/octant, set to match the second hand on the chronometer, and click the stop at the moment you take your sight. Then you go back to the nav. table and add the stop watch reading to the chronometer reading to get the time of the sight.  If you've got more than one stop watch, you can take more than one sighting before going back to your nav. table and working out the position.
The stop watches don't need to be as precise as the chronometer - they only need to accurately count the seconds for a minute or two.  They aren't expected to keep precise time for hours and days - that's the job of the chronometer(s).
Hopefully Gary can clarify any mistakes I've made.
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: Michael Calvin Powell on July 15, 2012, 12:02:59 PM
I have no idea what their source is but note this statement "The 48-mm stainless steel Longines Hour Angle Watch—which could be used to calculate longitude when used with navigational instruments—went on sale in 1932. ... The 1930s saw other advances in pilot's watches and aviation timekeeping as well, thanks to active use by aviation pioneers like Amelia Earhart—who wore a Longines, possibly the Hour Angle watch—and by professional pilots."

http://www.jckonline.com/article/288755-Flying_Time.php (http://www.jckonline.com/article/288755-Flying_Time.php)

Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: Michael Calvin Powell on July 15, 2012, 12:07:15 PM
This site includes pictures of what they say are Amelia's watch, though I don't see anything of Noonan"s:

http://www.pocketwatchrepair.com/histories/earhart-watch.html (http://www.pocketwatchrepair.com/histories/earhart-watch.html)
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 15, 2012, 05:47:48 PM
Thanks for the new information Michael.

I have managed to blow up (zoom in on) some of the Purdue photos of AE's and FN's watches. The one of FN is not really too good but does show some basic things about his watch. See picture 1 below and this link.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,282 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,282)

The closest thing I have found to what I see in Fred's watch is shown in picture 2. This is now, and probably was then, an expensive brand so it may not have been the kind FN had.

AE's watch is a little more difficult. All of the pictures taken of her during the second attempt, at least those in the Purdue collection, show her wearing the face of the watch on the inside of her arm. See picture 3.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,526 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,526)

I was able to find a picture that appears to have been taken well before the second attempt. It seems to show the same watch, but I have not been able to find another watch that looks anything like what I see in picture 4.

 http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,348  (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,348)

Any help will be much appreciated Michael.

Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 15, 2012, 07:02:05 PM
"Stop Clock" is another name for what we now call a "stop watch".  One may likely be with his Octant.  They're used to mark the exact instant a sight is taken.   I would assume Fred had 4 of them to allow taking 4 sightings quickly, then taking them back to his work table to record the readings and make his calculations.
My 1940's octant has a clip to hold a stopwatch in a convenient position that allows the start/stop button to be pressed without taking your eye away from the eyepiece. I've seen similar clips on sextants.

John, think that there is a difference between a stopwatch and a stopclock. USAAC 1st Lt. D.M. Tites, who performed the Luke Field inventory, was very detailed in his description of almost all of the items on the list. When he listed the clocks that were on the inventory, he called them "Clocks, Start & Stop 'Omega' ".

I have included pictures below of what I see as each type. The first picture shows what I would call a stopclock. It has a clock dial, which shows the time, plus it has a built in stopwatch to record the "time" of some event. This one was a special issue for the 1932 World Fair.

Picture 2 is a typical "stopwatch" which allows you to record the "time" of some event but does not show you the time.

I could be wrong but this is my interpretation of the terms.
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: John Ousterhout on July 16, 2012, 06:57:05 AM
Thanks Woody, you may be right.  I've not found any actual references that define "start & stop clocks".  The photo showing the 3 time pieces on the nav. table doesn't show their faces well enough to tell if they display time of day, or elapsed time, although they do clearly show the stop/start levers.
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 16, 2012, 07:53:37 AM
John, I don't know if I'm right or not. I've not found any definition either. I did find this picture of a WW2 navigator's watch. Makes me wonder if the 4th clock/watch might have been in some kind of protective container somewhere.  ???
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: Paul R Titus on July 16, 2012, 07:13:30 PM
According to Omega, "Earhart's Lockheed Electra 10E NR was equipped with a dashboard an Omega 39 CHRO chronograph. On her wrist, the most famous aviatrix of all time wore an Omega 28.9 chronograph and Fred Noonan sported an Omega Marine."

http://www.omegamuseum.com/pioneering-spirit (http://www.omegamuseum.com/pioneering-spirit)
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 16, 2012, 07:27:53 PM
Great fine Paul!  :)  Must be a new post. I have been to their site several times and found nothing.  ::)
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 16, 2012, 08:46:36 PM
The Omega data base does not include examples of the watches that the site claims were worn by AE and FN. It does, however include a listing for the "Aircraft chronograph". Except for the dial color, it appears to be the one shown in our pictures of the navigator's table in the electra. Hurrah!  ;D See pictures below.

Omega Aircraft Chronograph  (http://www.omegawatches.com/spirit/history/vintage-omegas/vintage-watches-database?q=aHR0cDovLzYyLjczLjE3Mi4xNzE6ODA4MC9lTXVzZXVtUGx1cz9zZXJ2aWNlPWRpcmVjdC8xL1Jlc3VsdExpc3RWaWV3L3Jlc3VsdC50Mi5jb2xsZWN0aW9uX2xpc3QuJFRzcFRpdGxlTGluayQwLmxpbmsmYW1wO3NwPTEwJmFtcDtzcD1TY29sbGVjdGlvbiZhbXA7c3A9U2ZpZWxkVmFsdWUmYW1wO3NwPTAmYW1wO3NwPTEmYW1wO3NwPTMmYW1wO3NwPVNzaW1wbGVMaXN0JmFtcDtzcD0wJmFtcDtzcD1TZGV0YWlsJmFtcDtzcD0wJmFtcDtzcD1GJmFtcDtzcD1UJmFtcDtzcD0w)
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: John Ousterhout on July 16, 2012, 09:58:36 PM
Woody, great find!
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 17, 2012, 01:34:50 AM
Thanks John. Paul is the one who found the place to look!  :D

I'm not convinced about the individual watches yet.  :-\
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: Mark Pearce on July 17, 2012, 03:22:34 PM
An original print of the Earhart/Manning photo can be had for a mere $345-

http://aviation-antiques.com/store/item_view.asp?estore_itemid=1000475

AMELIA EARHART /HARRY MANNING ORIGINAL PHOTO, 1937

"...Very rare original photograph of legendary aviatrix Amelia Earhart taken by her only authorized personal photographer, Albert Bresnik......this 10" by 13" image is mounted on 16" by 20" mat and signed in ink personally by Bresnik as well as having his embossed logo in the lower left hand of the photograph.... an affixed (copied) note on reverse of photo by Bresnik states that he was "Amelia Earharts personal photographer" and that "You are in the possession of a valuable photograph of Amelia Earhart taken by myself..."
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 19, 2012, 12:52:03 PM
I have finally located watches very similar to those worn by AN and FN on their flight. Omega Chronotachymetre here and picture 1 below. AE's here and picture 2 below. This one has minor differences in a) type of hands and b) location of small registers.

Omega Chronotachymetre (http://forums.watchuseek.com/f20/omega-chronograph-purchase-around-1928-pricing-544379.html)
AE's Watch (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,348)


Omega Marine Watch here and picture 3 below. FN's here and picture 4 below. Difference in watch face, round dial as opposed to square one.

Omega Marine Watch, 1934 (http://www.omegawatches.com/spirit/history/vintage-omegas/vintage-watches-database?q=aHR0cDovLzYyLjczLjE3Mi4xNzE6ODA4MC9lTXVzZXVtUGx1cz9zZXJ2aWNlPWRpcmVjdC8xL1Jlc3VsdExpc3RWaWV3L3Jlc3VsdC50Mi5jb2xsZWN0aW9uX2xpc3QuJFRzcFRpdGxlTGluayQwLmxpbmsmYW1wO3NwPTEwJmFtcDtzcD1TY29sbGVjdGlvbiZhbXA7c3A9U2ZpZWxkVmFsdWUmYW1wO3NwPTAmYW1wO3NwPTEmYW1wO3NwPTMmYW1wO3NwPVNzaW1wbGVMaXN0JmFtcDtzcD0wJmFtcDtzcD1TZGV0YWlsJmFtcDtzcD0wJmFtcDtzcD1GJmFtcDtzcD1UJmFtcDtzcD0w)
FN's Watch (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,282)
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: Paul R Titus on July 19, 2012, 03:20:03 PM
Quote
I have finally located watches very similar to those worn by AN and FN on their flight. Omega Chronotachymetre here and picture 1 below. AE's here and picture 2 below. This one has minor differences in a) type of hands and b) location of small registers.

Omega Chronotachymetre
AE's Watch

That's a darn good match, Woody: AE's watch and the Chronotachymetre-thingy. That watch forum even stated: "think these have a movement called caliber 28.9, after the diameter of the movement" which matches the description I found at Omega. BUT doesn't Fred's watch look almost the same? Except that the area outside the dial (the circular part swept by the hands), is dark vs AE's white. Could they each have worn the same model watch on the world flight? You know, make it easier to "synch watches" so to speak, right down to the "error" associated with the movement?
Title: Re: Fred's Stop Clocks
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 19, 2012, 06:09:04 PM
Paul, I was looking for one that matched what the Omega web site said Fred was wearing. I found it hard to believe he was wearing a watch that did not have a stop function.

You may be right, they look very similar in the bad pictures we have. I have discovered that there were apparently different options for the same model watch. This changed their appearance somewhat.

Good point about being able to "synch watches".