TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Aircraft & Powerplant, Performance and Operations => Topic started by: C.W. Herndon on June 12, 2012, 06:50:27 AM
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I had often looked at the size of the added fuel tanks inside the Electra and wondered how they got them in there. I was scanning the pictures in the Purdue Earhart e-collection yesterday and found this picture of a skin panel over the starboard wing that appears to have been removed and replaced. Could this have been the entry way for the fuel tanks?
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,899 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,899)
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Why wouldn't they fit through the door? They look like they were sized with the doorway in mind - narrow and tall. Isn't that also the reason to have 5 of them, because 1 or 2 bigger ones couldn't pass through the door? Too bad we don't have detailed drawings of their construction - there are some important questions they might answer. Would they float, how did the dump valves work, etc...
The odd-colored panel is interesting in its own right. If it were an opening, then the underlying structure (ribs, stringers, etc) would also need to be removed, which either compromises strength, or adds weight of reinforcements.
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I agree that there are some unanswered questions about the fuel tanks and I don't know if they would have fit through the door or not since we do not know their dimensions. I have found that sometimes, when moving large objects, after they go through the doorway they cannot be turned. Could this have happened here?
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There wouldn't be any need to turn the tanks once passed-though the door. They would already be oriented correctly.
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Maybe, maybe not.
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I agree that there are some unanswered questions about the fuel tanks and I don't know if they would have fit through the door or not since we do not know their dimensions. I have found that sometimes, when moving large objects, after they go through the doorway they cannot be turned. Could this have happened here?
The Harney drawings (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/harneydrawings/harneypage07floorplan.jpg) provide a good way to estimate the width of those fuel tanks (using the scale at the bottom, it looks like no more than 20", with the one aft being a tad smaller), with the door width being 24".
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What were the tanks made of?
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I agree that there are some unanswered questions about the fuel tanks and I don't know if they would have fit through the door or not since we do not know their dimensions. I have found that sometimes, when moving large objects, after they go through the doorway they cannot be turned. Could this have happened here?
The Harney drawings (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/harneydrawings/harneypage07floorplan.jpg) provide a good way to estimate the width of those fuel tanks (using the scale at the bottom, it looks like no more than 20", with the one aft being a tad smaller), with the door width being 24".
Bruce, I did not measure the 4 rear fuel tanks but I did use your Harney drawing to very hastily measure the 2 large, forward fuel tanks and the door.
The measurements I got for the door were 2' x 3' 8".
The front fuel tanks 2' 6" x 2' 10" x 4'6".
I will admit these were hasty approximations but I ask again, how did they get the fuel tanks inside the Electra?
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Bruce, I went back and re-measured and discovered my hasty measurements were off.
I came up with:
door 2' x 3' 7"
large tanks 1' 8" x 2' 4" x 4' 3"
It would have been tight but maybe could have been done. I still have a little problem with getting them around the corner but my mind is too tired to work on that right now.
Sorry about that. So why was the aircraft skin replaced?
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A little more on the Electra fuel tanks.
Richie posted a link to this article about the Electra fuel system that included a drawing showing the location of the tanks. See drawing at bottom.
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/61_FuelSystem/61_FuelSystem.htm (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/61_FuelSystem/61_FuelSystem.htm)
I have been going through the Purdue e-archives for AE and have chanced on the items below. Somewhere, and I have not been able to find it again yet, I remember reading about there being "baggage lockers in the wings" of the Electra.
I discovered this picture of the port wing, and there is another one for the other wing that is not as clear, that shows a door with handle where I remembered the baggage locker being shown. See picture 2 below.
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,331 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,331)
From looking at the drawing for the fuel tanks, it appears that fuel tanks were installed in the wing baggage lockers.
From this picture of the underneath of the port wing, it also appears that the panel that formed the bottom of the baggage locker may have been removable. Maybe to allow for inspections? See picture 3 below.
Maybe a convienent piece of aluminum for an alert islander to remove for his own use after the aircraft broke up on the reef?
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,344 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,344)
Comments or ideas anyone?
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The material the ferry/extra fuel tanks was made from was extremely thin. I understand they don't even need to use metal these days. Not much chance of the ferry/extra fuel tanks surviving for very long IMHO
http://www.turtlepac.com/en/photo-gallery/aircraft-ferry-tanks.html (http://www.turtlepac.com/en/photo-gallery/aircraft-ferry-tanks.html)
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The material the ferry/extra fuel tanks was made from was extremely thin. I understand they don't even need to use metal these days. Not much chance of the ferry/extra fuel tanks surviving for very long IMHO
http://www.turtlepac.com/en/photo-gallery/aircraft-ferry-tanks.html (http://www.turtlepac.com/en/photo-gallery/aircraft-ferry-tanks.html)
Use of non-metallic tanks is not new. The drop tanks used during WWII on P-51 Mustangs (and probably others) were made of laminated and shellacked cardboard; perfectly serviceable in the short term.
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The temporary tanks that they use today look very similar to the fuel bladders that the US Army used in Viet Nam to establish field refueling stations when we had large helicopter operations in remote locations. They were set up with hoses and pumps all brought in by transport helicopters. Very effective.
It appears, from looking at the pictures, that the newer ones are made from lighter, more durable materals.
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Bruce Thomas pointed out to me the article below from a previous addition of TIGHAR Tracks.
I found it very interesting and possibly related to the fuel tank issue as well as the water problem. I thought I would share it with everyone.
See the PDF pages 3-5.
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...So why was the aircraft skin replaced?
Woody, I think it was to cover the RH window(s). I can't say for sure how they got the tanks in - always thought they were sized to go in through the door. If it were up to me, I would do that and avoid having to disturb the structural frames behind that side skin panel. Mighty good question, but I suspect we can find that the door would work.
Thanks!
LTM -
Jeff, I have found a picture of the port side of the Electra that seems to have two skin panels of a different color. One is the same panel that is a different color on the right side. Maybe they were just from a different lot of aluminum when the aircraft was built. ???
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,768 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,768)
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Here is a picture I found this evening of the fuel tanks from inside the Electra!!! Also, notice the black box in the upper right hand corner next to the fuel tank R1. This picture is very interesting!!!
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Any date for the picture Randy? Ideas for black box?
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Here is a picture I found this evening of the fuel tanks from inside the Electra!!! Also, notice the black box in the upper right hand corner next to the fuel tank R1. This picture is very interesting!!!
Great find, we haven't seen that picture before. It should be possible to date it because the configuration of the compass above the instrument panel changed a number of times.
gl
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Sorry guys...I don't have a date on that!! But, I do wanna point something out that I brought up several weeks back bout a black box that I saw on one of the images. Some people insisted it was a toolbox. I'll let you decide!!!! Also, look at the drawing of the Electra!!!
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Here is a picture I found this evening of the fuel tanks from inside the Electra!!! Also, notice the black box in the upper right hand corner next to the fuel tank R1. This picture is very interesting!!!
Randy, check out this previous post ref the black box mounted above the fuel tank.
http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,504.msg6949.html#msg6949 (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,504.msg6949.html#msg6949)
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Can someone direct me to a description of the controls that were used to switch among fuel tanks. First for the standard tanks, and Second, for the added tanks in the fuselage. Were the controls electrical using actuators, or were there some physical methods. While the standards would have been operable from cockpit, were the added tanks also? Did about two hours of search on the site but haven't found any answer to this one. I'd also like info on the actuators such as manufacturer and part no., and esp. a drawing. Same for the switch used in cockpit.
Thanks
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Can someone direct me to a description of the controls that were used to switch among fuel tanks. First for the standard tanks, and Second, for the added tanks in the fuselage. Were the controls electrical using actuators, or were there some physical methods. While the standards would have been operable from cockpit, were the added tanks also? Did about two hours of search on the site but haven't found any answer to this one. I'd also like info on the actuators such as manufacturer and part no., and esp. a drawing. Same for the switch used in cockpit.
Thanks
Detail of Fuel Valves NR16020
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/61_FuelSystem/61_FuelSystem.htm
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Thanks Doc.
Any idea where we might find details on the actuators and switches/selectors?
Mike
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Thanks Doc.
Any idea where we might find details on the actuators and switches/selectors?
Mike
Mike, best I could find. First pic is Miami 1937. Second pic is Linda Finch's Electra #1015 refitted for her around the world flight. I can't find a picture of the floor fuel selectors. It appears that Linda Finch's are somewhat different than AE's.
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First pic is Miami 1937.
I don't think so. See "The 'Miami' Cockpit Photo (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/53_MiamiPhoto/53_MiamiPhoto.htm)."
Still, I don't think the selector valves changed.
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First pic is Miami 1937.
I don't think so. See "The 'Miami' Cockpit Photo (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/53_MiamiPhoto/53_MiamiPhoto.htm)."
Still, I don't think the selector valves changed.
Ric, I got that picture from the below site. Now that I look at the text above it, it seems that maybe this picture was taken in Oakland before she left for Honolulu. Apparently whoever posted the picture had their wires crossed. However, if you look closely at the selector switches in both pictures I posted earlier, they appear to be a little different in Finch's Electra than AE's, is what I meant.
http://annoyzview.wordpress.com/tag/lockheed-electra-10e/
http://annoyzview.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/01_miami_cockpit.jpg?w=300&h=221
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Sorry, Doc, second pic did not show up.
Mike
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The three fuselage control heads are just under the left edge of the co-pilot's seat, as shown in the attached HD still of the cockpit area, and also in the Harney drawings.
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Thanks Doc & Tim,
I must still be inartful in my question. What you are showing are the faces of the selectors that tell the operator which tank.
What I wanted to see are two items:
First is the insides of those selectors. An IPB (illustrated parts breakdown) of those selectors showing mechanics, and electrical schematics.
(Of course, I understand that IPBs were rare in the mid 30's. Mfgr's equivalent will do.)
Second, a question: Is an IPB (or equiv.) available of the actual valve that opens and closes a particular tank, including its electrical schematic. Is it a disk, or a cone, or a block . . . etc. I want to see the mechanics of the valve.
I suspect that since Lockheed Burbank did the modifications for long range to EA's c/n 1055 (and c/n 1065, the "Daily Express) that the actuators on the added tanks were the same as on the standard tanks -- or maybe not? Must have cost that publishing company a few simoleans to get all of that extra tubing installed. Tubing is a b***h.
Anyway, all suggestions will be appreciated.
Thanks
Mike
PS. re simoleans, see http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-sim1.htm
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Sorry, Mike, can't help. When I used ferry tanks in my Aerostar, they installed manual valves for each tank and a simple on-off switch for the electric pump. Simple.
:)
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OK. Thanks Tim. Looks like a passive system with no electrics in c/n 1055; just lots of tubing. Posed a management task, but not serious for the average pilot. (Aerostar. Interesting choice.)
Regards
Mike