TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Colin Philip Cobb on June 11, 2012, 07:57:19 PM
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I've always wanted to ask this question.
Who owns the plane? Is it classed as a wreck "derelict" were like Titanic you can claim salvor in possession with coordinates and a piece of debris in court.
If found in Kiribati who owns it? If found off howland who owns it?
Is the salvor the owner or is his hard work for nothing ?
Regards
Colin Cobb
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I've always wanted to ask this question.
Who owns the plane? Is it classed as a wreck "derelict" were like Titanic you can claim salvor in possession with coordinates and a piece of debris in court.
If found in Kiribati who owns it? If found off howland who owns it?
Is the salvor the owner or is his hard work for nothing ?
Regards
Colin Cobb
I suspect that the insurance company has legal title to the plane.
gl
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Good question Colin. Glad you got home ok.
I would think that the Kiribati Government may be the legal owner. Ric signed a deal to protect whatever is found. As this was signed with the government I would think Ric has a better handle on legal ownership.
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I expect that here would be a lot of back and forth on that and hope that Tighar will not be shoved aside. The "good job guys now stand back and let professionals take over thing."
Most irritating but does happen as those same experts will stand around poo pooing an idea until they are confronted with the discovery. Then its a complete reversal and a rush to grab the spotlight. I would hope that the good work done by Tighar to this point would help hold the high ground on it.
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I expect that here would be a lot of back and forth on that and hope that Tighar will not be shoved aside. The "good job guys now stand back and let professionals take over thing."
Most irritating but does happen as those same experts will stand around poo pooing an idea until they are confronted with the discovery. Then its a complete reversal and a rush to grab the spotlight. I would hope that the good work done by Tighar to this point would help hold the high ground on it.
Tell you what, I've dealt with lots of aircraft wreckage and it is owned by the insurance company that paid the claim for the loss. The settlement documents include transferring ownership of the wreckage to the insurance company in exchange for the payment of the claim. Just because the wreckage in missing doesn't change this nor does passage of time extinguish the ownership interest. A recent example of this, Spain obtained billions of dollars worth of gold and other treasure that had been salved from a sunken ship that went down three hundred years ago, Spain claimed ownership of the lost ship. The U.S. Federal Court awarded the treasure to Spain even though they played no part in recovering the treasure.
It will be interesting to see what happens if the plane is ever found, it might be quite valuable and Ric should have paid he legal owner, the insurance company, for at least some rights in the wreckage if he finds it. Since Ric used to be an aircraft claims adjuster I suspect he is on top of this issue.
gl
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If Electra is found off Howland , then that's in American waters and not Kiribati.
Who insured the Electra?
My point is ,that other search companies should be allowed to claim salvor if they find the Electra. If tighar fails to find Electra but have an ownership of it then it would discourage others from searching. I just wonder what waitt and nauticos have done to cover themselves about this issue.
Colin
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I suspect that if the insurers, or their successors, of the Electra still exist then it is they who own it. That is the standard rule with insured property. Once an insurer pays out the item insured becomes theirs so if recovered they own it. There was a case several years ago where a ship carrying gold from California sank of the coast of the Carolinas bound for New York IIRC in the early to middle 1850s. At the time the insurance company paid the insured amount, however in the late 1990s IIRC a salvage team found the wreck and recovered the gold only to discover that the legal successors of the insurance company still existed and were entitled to the gold. They reached an agreement with the salvage company but the gold legally belonged to the insurance company.
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I have some experience with salvage and insurance (former commercial diver) as well as dealing with insurance claims on foreign soil (management of exploration and mining company).
My concerns were not so much the insurance value as the "credit for find value" but in this case the back and forths at the insurance and ownership level would still be interesting to watch. I am not thinking that a sovereign nation would be particularly swayed by a decision by a US court so international court and diplomatic wrangling would come into play. I experienced first hand what happens when property gets "nationalized" and options are limited no matter what piece of paper one might have. While we are dealing with a peaceful nation and it would all likely be very civilized I can tell you that if push comes to shove serious men with RPGs and AKs trumps insurance and ownership papers any day. Insurance will generally still pay but the insurance company takes it on the chin and writes it off. Of course that's on average boring mining equipment and not something of historic value. Way more groups and governments who care.
As Gary points out the management has experience and has had lots of time to think about it so I am sure that Tighar will get whats right. Its all arm waving until we find something though and its not till then that many of the potential pains in the butt wake up and try to get their piece.
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Somewhere along the line, I have the impression that we looked into whether or not the aircraft was insured, and I think we figured out that it was not. AE had almost everything she had invested in the aircraft and didn't insure it. She and George had to raise the money to repair it after the first attempt Luke Field Wreck, so it wasn't insured then, and I don't think it was insured during the second attempt.
Sometime in the 80's or 90's, AE's sister "sold" the aircraft to some folks who thought they would salvage it up by Howland, so in theory they might make a claim, but in the end I think that it can be argued that the aircraft was abandoned by the estate and if found in Kiribati waters is the property of the nation of Kiribati.
Or whoever finds it can make a claim.
The deal between TIGHAR and Kiribati is that TIGHAR has the exclusive rights to search for, recover, conserve, display, and take custody of any Earhart related artifacts found in Kiribati waters, so even if someone else makes a claim, they will have to deal with TIGHAR in one way or the other if the aircraft is in Kiribati waters.
It is a problem that only arrives if we find the Electra. Lets hope we have such a problem.
Andrew
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Andrew nailed it.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
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Thanks Andrew.
Watch out for claimants popping up all over the place if the plane is found. .
Donald Campbell was killed while attempting to break the water speed record in 1967. His bluebird jet boat lay forgotten at the bottom of the lake 34 years until it was raised by bill smith in 2001.
Much to his daughters horror, when the boat was raised out came Paul Foulkes Halbard of owner The Foulkes-Halbard Collection at Filching Manor in England. He claimed the boat stating Donald Campbell's engineer Leo villa signed it over to him in the 1970's.
It caused a right stink and after many arguments halbard could not complete the claim as he could not produce the written evidence.
Everyone wants a piece of the action these days.
Thanks Andrew for the help.
Colin
Ps. Andrew can you send me those pictures. Cheers.
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The ownership of the Electra is interesting. I understand what Mr. LaPook states regarding insurance, because the insured and owner of an aircraft usually signs away their salvage rights when a loss is paid. That's part of the insurance contract, and the deal making when there is a loss. But if the Electra was not insured, then that throws the insurance issue out the window.
Salvage issues are governed by what is known as Admiralty Law. I looked in my Admiralty and Maritime Law Hornbook (3rd Edition, Edited by Thomas J. Schoenbaum) and found the following general rules:
1. A salvor of imperiled property on navigable waters gains a right of compensation from the owner. In other words, the owner still has a claim, but the person finding and recovering the property has a right of compensation.
2. For wrecks in the United States, the law applicable to maritime salvage is the general maritime law, which includes treaties and international obligations. General maritime law is a part of customary international law.
3. Marine salvage law is primarily concerned with property salvage. There are other types of salvage, such as life salvage and treasure salvage.
4. According to the Supreme Court, only maritime property can be the object of an act of salvage. At first it would seem that an aircraft would be excluded from this, but like so many things in law, there are exceptions. Aircraft that crash on navigable waters are subject to salvage as well. I know of one case that involved a seaplane - Lambros Seaplane Base, Inc v. The Batory, 215 F.2d 228 (2nd Cir. 1954). That case explains that maritime law does not apply if the plane is on land, but applies if it is salvaged, found, or rescued in navigable waters.
It seems to me that the Republic of Kiribati would have some claim, as any wreckage found in their waters would be subject to their claims. Obviously they would not have any claim if the Electra were located outside of their waters, in what is termed the high seas.
In this light, therefore, it makes sense, that Mr. Gillespie is accompanied by someone representing the Republic of Kiribati.
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Thanks Anthony. I was able to understand every word. :D
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Hey Colin-----I didnt think there was alot left of Bluebird to salvage. As I recall it bacame slightly airborne, and then came apart. Seems I have the book somewhere (actually my fathers). He was a huge fan of Sir Malcolm and Donald.
Tom
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Hi Tom
see link bluebird wreckage (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1208845.stm).
They also discovered Cambells remains close by via side scan sonar soon after.
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see link bluebird wreckage (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1208845.stm).
That article says that it took them four years to locate the wreckage.
In a lake.
With photos and lots of eyewitnesses to help focus the search.
I don't know. I'm feeling some needle-in-a-hastackiness all over again about the odds of Niku VII finding part of the Electra. :(
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"I'm feeling some needle-in-a-hastackiness all over again about the odds of Niku VII finding part of the Electra."
I agree. This has been the topic of discussion with friends of mine who are curious about TIGHAR's expedition, and why my office is filled with stuff right now that has nothing to do with law.
If the Electra, or pieces of the Electra came to rest in the reef edge not far from the surface, I wonder if coral and biological debris would obscure it. I actually think it would be safer if it were in a deeper part off the reef.
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I'm feeling some needle-in-a-hastackiness .............
The nice thing about looking for a needle in a haystack -
That needle is all you'll find. It's the only thing you look for thus you'll miss all the hay around it.
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Don't Panic!!!
With the Blue Bird they just didn't have the resources that TIGHAR have even for such a small search.
If memory serves me rightly the wreckage was actualy found soon after the crash but nothing done about it. Think were talking about a couple of scuba divers in a low vis environment searching weekends and holidays without any serious technology's
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Your correct Chris, when campbell was killed in 1967 royal navy divers were dispatched and found the bluebird the next day. Nothing difficult really.
And that was with flash lights, no sonar and diving only on 8 mins bottom time.
Bluebird was mostly intact but the cockpit was gone as it took the full force of the collision.
After weeks of searching Campbell's body was not recovered and the navy concluded that he must of disintegrated on impact. I've been a member of Donald Campbell's speed club for over 20 years now and go coniston every year to pay tribute to the worlds greatest speed king.
Campbell was my childhood hero when growing up.
It was eventually bill smith who raised the bluebird boat in 2001, it didn't take him four years to find it, it took a few visits with the sonar to pin point the debris field at 125 ft of water and bingo there it was. 34 years at the bottom and bluebird was raised.
But where was Campbell? Well two months after raising bluebird bill smith using sonar finally located donalds body, not at the wreckage but about 100 ft or more further back at the impact point of after the bluebird had done a somersault , impacted the surface and cartwheeled on a further distance.
The royal navy divers at the time got the point of impact wrong and with poor equipment just missed donalds body. Donald had been shot out of bluebird at the moment of impact, into the lake, his body drifting off at an angle.
Donald rather than in bits was found on his back, still in his bluebird overalls, one glove on his hand, car keys beside him, and some coins in his pocket. He even had his st Christopher medal around his neck that his father sir Malcolm gave him as a boy.
Donald had lain in the same spot for 34 years undisturbed.
Sadly the impact was so violent at 190mph that donalds head was never recovered from the lake. Gina , donalds only daughter waited on the pier for Donald to be brought back.
It was a very emotional day.
September 12th 2001 and with the world still reeling from sept 11th the previous day, Donald Campbell was buried at coniston in the english lake district.
It was an awful wet and miserable day, I attended the funeral and saw the man I had admired for so long get the funeral he deserved, a horse drawn carriage with thousands of mourners and soaked school children lining the streets holding aloft yellow and blue ribbons as the coffin passed by.
In america Earhart is the icon, in Great Britain it's men like Donald campbell that our country was made from.
In 2000 I joined Donald campbells nephew Don Wales and his team to break the electric land speed record on pendine sands in Wales, with a speed of 123mph, we raised this record to 138mph a few months later.
Campbells bluebird is being restored and will return to coniston in the near future.
Just typing this has brought back a lot of memories.
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Just typing this has brought back a lot of memories.
Thanks, Colin.
Much appreciated.
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Colin,
I have to ask, are you related to John Rhodes Cobb?
Randy
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Wow, Colin, fascinating story- and chilling, and deeply sad. Thanks for sharing.
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Sorry randy no relation to the great John cobb.
Cobb the worlds fastest man on land, holding the land speed record at 394mph from 1947 until 1963.
Sadly killed in an attempt on the water speed record in 1952 at loch ness in his jet boat crusader k6. I've visited the site at drumnadrochit , loch ness.
Cobbs boat nosedived at 200mph+ destroying the craft which has never been raised.
Cobbs body was violently hurled out of the cockpit, skimming the surface like a pebble for hundreds of feet.
His life jacket stayed on and cobb floated, when the rescue boat arrived it was clear cobb was dead, a broken neck and severe damage to his leg.
Cobb was such a big bloke that they could not lay him down properly in the small motorised boat that they had to prop him up in the boat which gave the onlookers on shore the impression cobb was alive.
Hence why the first reports and even to this day , that cobb survived the crash but died of shock on the shore still continue.
Cobb was killed outright as I did some studies into his crash and managed to obtain rare colour footage from castrol of his time spent at loch ness.
I actually hold one of the largest collections of rare footage of land and water speed records breakers from the 1920's to the 1970,s.
Finding the earhart footage in Derry was new territory for me.
If anyone is interested in footage let me know. .
It's not free of course as some of this footage cost me thousands of pounds to obtain from pathe and movie tone.
Thanks
Colin cobb
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Ugh!!!
I'll never be able to skim stones again :o
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I was sooooo tempted to hit the report to moderator button ;D
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Fascinating Colin. My father was abig Campbell and Cobb fan. You bring up some interesting things about finding Donalds body. One day, we may find AE and /or Fred. what to do? Thats would be an interesting discussion. Obviously, the Kiribati govt would have to be involved. But I doubt that people would travel to the middle of the Pacific to see their resting places.
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If you can't beat them join them!