TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Brad Beeching on June 11, 2012, 04:46:07 PM
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I was reading of Dr. Stone's (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2003Vol_19/WOF.pdf) visit to Niku in 2002 last night and had an ugly thought. What if there is an inter-island junk dealer out there who saw a bunch of junk washed up on the beach and decided since it was light enough for his winch to pick up, he did and now that which we seek ended up as a Fosters can in East Slovobia somewhere?
Brad
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;D I believe I can see rivet holes in my beer can ;D
Randy
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That's always one of the challenges of doing archaeology. Your valuable artifact is somebody else's resource. Especially if resources are scarce. No wonder the local native population would be considered for their potential for gathering and using some bits and pieces. It happens over and over all over the world as we build on the bones of those that came before.
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A speculation .....or am I a victim of hearsay?
Along a similar line of thought I remember hearing that certain secret documents from the war (WWII) era were not as yet open for the public to examine. Initially a fifty year period after the war ie 45 --95 was the cutoff date, but then I heard that some of those files had been closed for an extra 50 years due to complications that may arise from the information contained therin.. My speculation is was this the case with the bones documents?
Could the bones themselves still be somewere but their location is still classified for whatever reason; acka a warehouse Indian jones style ?
Please note , this is just a speculation on my part after all there are still mysteries such as the "Rudolf Hess Hitlers Deputy in Scotland " event and the "Sikorski Airplane accident" and others that are not fully penned yet.
Problably a few more..too
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Along a similar line of thought I remember hearing that certain secret documents from the war (WWII) era were not as yet open for the public to examine. Initially a fifty year period after the war ie 45 --95 was the cutoff date, but then I heard that some of those files had been closed for an extra 50 years due to complications that may arise from the information contained therin.. My speculation is was this the case with the bones documents?
Not that we know of. I suppose that if we are imagining secret files that have not yet been made public, it is the kind of thing that we could not know about until someone searches them.
The bones file (http://tighar.org/wiki/Bones_file) was created by the Western Pacific High Commission (http://tighar.org/wiki/WPHC). I'm not clear on the relationship of the WPHC to the British military system, but, so far as I know, the WPHC Archives (http://tighar.org/wiki/WPHC_Archives) were not classified as military secrets. There are files in the system that are marked "secret," but most of them seemed to be dealing with international diplomacy and land claims (e.g., the U.S. vs. Britain on Canton), not with military activity.
There is no evidence in the bones file that the WPHC officially contacted anyone in the U.S. diplomatic service to discuss the bones found on Niku. Without that correspondence, I would not expect any U.S. files on the question to exist.
Apart from the Kilts story (http://tighar.org/wiki/Kilts), no one seems to have published anything about the remains of a skeleton being found on Niku until a TIGHAR researcher found the Tarawa file in 1997.
Could the bones themselves still be somewhere but their location is still classified for whatever reason; acka a warehouse Indian Jones style?
That would be wonderful! I didn't list that explicitly in my discussion of the possibilities after Bones II (http://tighar.org/wiki/2003_Bones_Search_II#Discussion_of_the_possibilities), but it can't be ruled out because we have not been given permission to search all Indiana-Jones-style warehouses in Fiji, Great Britain, the U.S., and Auckland.
Please note , this is just a speculation on my part after all there are still mysteries such as the "Rudolf Hess Hitlers Deputy in Scotland " event and the "Sikorski Airplane accident" and others that are not fully penned yet.
Probably a few more..too
If the bones or other documents about their disposition are locked up, we'll just have to wait until someone unlocks the doors. There is no direct way that I know of to act on this theory.
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You have encouraged me to postulate further with regards to this matter.
For good or otherwise... :-X
In the year 1940 Britain was at war with Nazi Germany and Japan. The US was not. Hoodless being an astute individual would not have wanted the British case in the media to be side tracked by the side show of the finding of some wayward adventurer. This was a view that the entire bureaucracy would have held highly at this time. He would have wanted these “bones”, which he must have suspected could be those of AE be hidden, until further more important matters be made clear, i.e. the war.
Britain was working on getting the US involved on their side, much as they were working on splitting up the German-Russian alliance. This rather obscure matter with AE would not lend itself to helping them with the depressing war scenario, they then were in, until properly thought out by Admiralty or the mechanizem that Empire works.
I would think that Dr. Hoodless would hide this box till later examination was possible , say after an allied victory to heighten the camaraderie of the US and England. Or in the mean time possibly the inference that she was done away with by a foe such as the Japanese. This of course runs the cororally that the box needs to be placed somewhere were it will be available when needed in the future. There would be no embarassent of finding her "real body" by others once the game was afoot.
All this may give us hope that AE, or the box of bones, was not thrown away but is biding its time somewhere.
Imagine a box in a warehouse with the words stencilled on it: -----
Half-Caste P.I.S.S. Retain :P
Sorry about that..
Oh yes the book I'm reading Finding Ameila is truley interesting ...
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You have encouraged me to postulate further with regards to this matter.
For good or otherwise... :-X
In the year 1940 Britain was at war with Nazi Germany and Japan. The US was not. Hoodless being an astute individual would not have wanted the British case in the media to be side tracked by the side show of the finding of some wayward adventurer. This was a view that the entire bureaucracy would have held highly at this time. He would have wanted these “bones”, which he must have suspected could be those of AE be hidden, until further more important matters be made clear, i.e. the war.
Britain was working on getting the US involved on their side, much as they were working on splitting up the German-Russian alliance. This rather obscure matter with AE would not lend itself to helping them with the depressing war scenario, they then were in, until properly thought out by Admiralty or the mechanizem that Empire works.
I would think that Dr. Hoodless would hide this box till later examination was possible , say after an allied victory to heighten the camaraderie of the US and England. Or in the mean time possibly the inference that she was done away with by a foe such as the Japanese. This of course runs the cororally that the box needs to be placed somewhere were it will be available when needed in the future. There would be no embarassent of finding her "real body" by others once the game was afoot.
All this may give us hope that AE, or the box of bones, was not thrown away but is biding its time somewhere.
Imagine a box in a warehouse with the words stencilled on it: -----
Half-Caste P.I.S.S. Retain :P
Sorry about that..
Oh yes the book I'm reading Finding Ameila is truley interesting ...
1. Britain had nothing to do with causing the loss of Earhart so no reason to fear a backlash from Americans because they found her bones on one of their islands.
2. Britain was not at war with Japan until December 8, 1941 (the same as December 7, 1941 in Hawaii, a date you should recognize) more than a year after the bones were found.
gl
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Hoodless being an astute individual would not have wanted the British case in the media to be side tracked by the side show of the finding of some wayward adventurer. This was a view that the entire bureaucracy would have held highly at this time. He would have wanted these “bones”, which he must have suspected could be those of AE be hidden, until further more important matters be made clear, i.e. the war.
Unless we repudiate our vow not to use our powers of ESP when dealing with mere mortals, we have no way of knowing for sure what went on in Hoodless' mind.
We have indications in the bones file that Sir Harry Luke, head of the Western Pacific High Commission, wanted the matter kept secret. On 26 October 1940, he wrote Vaskess (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Bones_Chronology2.html): "Thinnest rumours which may in the end prove unfounded are liable to be spread." That is a reasonable position to take, I think; whether it was connected to thinking about the war or not is not clear to me.
The next to last entry by Dr. Hoodless in the bones file is this: "My report on these bones is enclosed. I will take charge of these bones until it is decided what to do with them" (5 April 1941) (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Bones_Chronology4.html). By this time, Hoodless has concluded that they are not the bones of a female European, so I doubt that he was worried about what effect the finding of the bones would have on British/U.S. relations.
I would think that Dr. Hoodless would hide this box till later examination was possible , say after an allied victory to heighten the camaraderie of the US and England. Or in the mean time possibly the inference that she was done away with by a foe such as the Japanese. This of course runs the cororally that the box needs to be placed somewhere were it will be available when needed in the future. There would be no embarassent of finding her "real body" by others once the game was afoot.
Your imaginative reconstruction of Dr. Hoodless' personality and mine differ very much on this point. I think he was satisfied that he had ruled out the possibility of the bones being hers, and was not at all anxious about post-war Japanese capture theories. Amelia is a big deal to the U.S. audience, but is much less interesting to the British ex-pats whom I met in Fiji.
All this may give us hope that AE, or the box of bones, was not thrown away but is biding its time somewhere.
I cling to that hope, too, but not on the grounds you suggest.
Imagine a box in a warehouse with the words stencilled on it: -----
Half-Caste P.I.S.S. Retain :P
Sorry about that..
It's OK. The fellows who coined the name were quite pleased that it was accepted, I believe. ::)
Oh yes the book I'm reading, ''Finding Amelia,'' is truly interesting ...
Agreed.
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I was reading of Dr. Stone's (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2003Vol_19/WOF.pdf) visit to Niku in 2002 last night and had an ugly thought. What if there is an inter-island junk dealer out there who saw a bunch of junk washed up on the beach and decided since it was light enough for his winch to pick up, he did and now that which we seek ended up as a Fosters can in East Slovobia somewhere?
Brad
If I remember rightly when TIGHAR announced the 'red' object found in a satilite image of the island some salvage firm went to Niku and pulled off a chunk of the Norwich City. I'll get the link later.
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Link to above (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2001Vol_17/words.pdf)
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Link to above (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2001Vol_17/words.pdf)
Thanks for the link, Chris.
I have started a list of "Visitors to Nikumaroro" (http://tighar.org/wiki/Visitors_to_Nikumaroro) to keep track of oddities like this.
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Your welcome, my heads stuffed full of mostly useless information ;D
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Your welcome, my heads stuffed full of mostly useless information ;D
Hah! So is the TIGHAR website, I guess. 8)
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It makes me wonder how common there are/were visitors to any other islands. Certainly the skeletons found would indicate that someone got stranded there, presumably due to their craft being lost on the reef. The same might be said of the Norwich city crew. Should we start referring to Niku as the Crossroads of the Pacific?
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JohnO,
Martys started work on a topic on the Wiki visitors to Niku (http://tighar.org/wiki/Visitors_to_Nikumaroro). One thing we do know is that the British tried (i use that word because we all do stuff were not supposed to do) stop unofficial inter island travel by the natives. How successfull was this I've no way of knowing.
Prior to the 'aquiring' of territories by european powers the micro and polynesians were known to be great sea farers.
I'm sure Dr Kings book 'shoes' mentions pre historic artifacts found on Niku. I'll dig (no pun intended) the reference out and post it.
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Possible Prehistoric Occupation (http://tighar.org/wiki/Niku_I_(1989))
It was a Basalt Adze found during Niku 1.
Marty ref fish traps there is no dating evidence to suggest that these are pre Arundle or PISS and fish traps are common in lagons in modern day Kiribati.
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Possible Prehistoric Occupation (http://tighar.org/wiki/Niku_I_%281989%29)
It was a Basalt Adze found during Niku 1.
Thanks. Added to the "Visitors" page (http://tighar.org/wiki/Visitors_to_Nikumaroro).
Marty ref fish traps there is no dating evidence to suggest that these are pre Arundle or PISS and fish traps are common in lagoons in modern day Kiribati.
This is something for the archaeologists to debate with each other. On the "Visitors" page, all I say is that it may be evidence of prehistoric visits. By definition, that implies that it may not be evidence, either. Folks whose job it is to date things may have some way of comparing a known prehistoric fish trap to the ones on Niku (if, indeed, they are fish traps at all, and not just from random or natural effects). My goal is just to provide a handy place for anecdotes about signs of visits that seem not to have been part of the PISS colony or expeditions whose records have been examined by TIGHAR.
Niku is far, far away from here, but not so far away from modern fishing boats, tramp steamers, yachts, and (I guess) native boats. I speculate that there is no way for TIGHAR to ever know for sure how much human traffic there has been on the island from these voyagers.
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After reading the info in Betty's notebook and assuming it to be a factual account I am inclined to think that the landing was much rougher than I had thought before. Assuming Fred did not wear his seatbelt, was in back when Ae landed on the reef, a reef with a deep crevice near the north side. If the plane hit this during its final landing roll they may had been thrown against the roof of the electra , FN more than AE.
This leads me to speculate that they never got out of the plane , tried to contact rescuers in vain and were eventually washed out into the ocean after a beating on Nicu's shoreline (acka the sailor's report from the Norswitch City who was washed from the ship to the shore and back again a few times).
The larger wave that took them out would have carried them a good distance from nicu and then dropped em to the bottom of the sea still bodily inside the plane.
This means that they are still in the plane and any findings on Niku acka the bones are (vistors from Hull island?) someone else.....
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Hmmm, I'm finding it difficult to imagine that AE & FN remained in what must have been a hot, hot cabin for nearly a week with very few provisions, leaving an entire atoll to itself.
Not to mention that to hold that speculation, one must also dismiss significant evidence that suggests otherwise.
dp
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Question from a newcomer:
Exactly how many "foreign" skeletons did the natives claim to find when they had settled on Niku? Seemed to me that the carpenter's daughter claimed there were some from the ship all lined up.....If so, what happened to them, and did AE add Fred to that group? I also had thought that Fred probably was unbuckled and thus died soon from head injuries...
Lauren
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I belive that 11 sailors were lost from the Norwich city in 1929 of those , correct me-- 9 skeltons were found near the ship.
But I don't think a sailor could live for 5 more years to become the stout sandal skelton partial.
A week in the plane would be though unless Fred was bad off and couldn'tget out easily ie broken leg and headwound?
Then again Ae was not really a survivalist type person was she? Once you see the plane is going to sink youd get out .
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Hmmm, I'm finding it difficult to imagine that AE & FN remained in what must have been a hot, hot cabin for nearly a week with very few provisions, leaving an entire atoll to itself.
Not to mention that to hold that speculation, one must also dismiss significant evidence that suggests otherwise.
dp
I doubt they would have stayed in the Electra at all, only to try and communicate, given the reef surface i think they would have only took the lightest and most important item's to avoid more injuries
we know from Lae telegrams Amelia sent to George, she and Fred had a small suitcase each with essentials inside toiletries underwear change of clothes etc, what else do u take knifes ? maps? sextant? toolkit? rope? torches?
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I belive that 11 sailors were lost from the Norwich city in 1929 of those , correct me-- 9 skeltons were found near the ship.
But I don't think a sailor could live for 5 more years to become the stout sandal skelton partial.
A week in the plane would be though unless Fred was bad off and couldn'tget out easily ie broken leg and headwound?
Then again Ae was not really a survivalist type person was she? Once you see the plane is going to sink youd get out .
Think it was between 3 and 5 bodies recovered and buried on the shore near the wreck. No link as between bases but can confirm tomorrow.
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I belive that 11 sailors were lost from the Norwich city in 1929 of those , correct me-- 9 skeltons were found near the ship.
But I don't think a sailor could live for 5 more years to become the stout sandal skelton partial.
A week in the plane would be though unless Fred was bad off and couldn'tget out easily ie broken leg and headwound?
Then again Ae was not really a survivalist type person was she? Once you see the plane is going to sink youd get out .
Think it was between 3 and 5 bodies recovered and buried on the shore near the wreck. No link as between bases but can confirm tomorrow.
Here is the link to the info about the wreck of the Norwich City. Says 11 died, 3 bodies recovered and buried on the beach.
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/WreckNorwichCity.html (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/WreckNorwichCity.html)
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Thats the one. There was a story of the pigs that the settlers bought to the island digging up the remains.
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Speaking of the bones and the notations :===
Bones file.
Ballpoint pen under "Other Connected Papers":
R39
B946
I'm sure after twenty years this has been checked out but I will ask as I can't find any info; :-\
could these be the numbers of plots in some graveyards , say two possible places that the bones could have been intered at graveyards that were in use at the same time the ballpen notation was made?
Possibly some plots were somehow made avaliable for bones burial?
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Speaking of the bones and the notations :===
Bones file.
Ballpoint pen under "Other Connected Papers":
R39
B946
I'm sure after twenty years this has been checked out but I will ask as I can't find any info; :-\
could these be the numbers of plots in some graveyards , say two possible places that the bones could have been interred at graveyards that were in use at the same time the ballpen notation was made?
Possibly some plots were somehow made available for bones burial?
I'm the person who made that note.
I observed the numbers on the outside of the bones file (http://tighar.org/wiki/Bones_file) during the 2003 expedition to Fiji and New Zealand (http://tighar.org/wiki/2003_Bones_Search_II). I'm the person who made that page on the wiki.
I asked everyone I could whether they looked like part of a warehouse system. We're looking for two different boxes: the box containing 13 bones and the sextant box that (I presume) had parts of a man's shoe, parts of a woman's shoe, and corks on brass chains in it.
The numbers do not correspond in any way to the records of burials and cremations (http://tighar.org/wiki/2003_Bones_Search_II#Burials.2C_Cremations.2C_Police_Evidence_Warehouse) studied so thoroughly in 2003 by Roger Kelley.
They do not match any of the filing systems used by the WPHC (http://tighar.org/wiki/WPHC_archives#Change_of_filing_system.2C_1941-1942). I looked at all of the indexes (or "indices," if you prefer) in the WPHC from 1940 until the system ceased to be used in the 1970s.
I am attached to the idea that they may have had some significance for the bones file when they were written on it, but I'll be darned if I can figure out what that significance was.
I'm responsible for calling them "ball-point" ink. I'm not a qualified document examiner, but I have read a lot of archival material, both from the WPHC and from my work on the biography of Michael Polanyi (http://www3.canisius.edu/%7Emoleski/polanyi.htm), so I consider it an educated guess.
While I'm guessing, I guess that they would not represent burial plots. I would expect someone who wanted to record that information to have included an indication of which cemetery to search for those locations. Only one box would need burial in any event. There would be no need to bury or cremate the sextant box and its contents.
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in red (reserved for highest authority) 39 telegrams, pages/reply's
in blue or black (general authority) 946 telegrams/reply's
just an idea :)
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For those who might want to know about the life and activities of DW Hoodless, his biography by Misi Utu is available as scanned pdf chapters at:
http://www.pacifichealthvoices.org/files/
just go to the links titled Chapter1_Misi_Utu etc
There is no mention of the bones, the biography is not terribly well organized jumping back and forth in time but it gives insight into the world of a western person in colonial Fiji society
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For those who might want to know about the life and activities of DW Hoodless, his biography by Misi Utu is available as scanned pdf chapters at:
http://www.pacifichealthvoices.org/files/ (http://www.pacifichealthvoices.org/files/)
I believe "Misi Utu" was his local nickname and the name of the book.
The book was written by his daughter, Margaret W. Guthrie.
There is no mention of the bones, the biography is not terribly well organized jumping back and forth in time but it gives insight into the world of a western person in colonial Fiji society
Yes, exactly. If I remember correctly from when I read it in Fiji, it also shows how compressed his medical education was. He only spent two or three years, at most, in training in England. His original work in Fiji was in another field (mathematics?).
He was a great gift to the people of the islands. He saw their need for better health care, and did something about it.
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Marty,
Have you considered the possibility that the notations R 39 and B 946 might mean:
R-39 referred to a body “remains -39” ; reason, a rather small number of dead people found around the islands.
The B – 946 could signify “ Box” – 946 as ruminates of material found at various sites in the island area.
Ted Campbell
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Was looking for a place to put this and this seemed best as it is sort of runs through the thread. As a member of a US Govt agency (USAF) I always laugh when I hear conspiracy theories. It has been my experience in the complex, multi agency, bureaucratic, oft turned-over of leadership Govt of our great country that no two people can sufficiently get their Sh.. together well enough to have a conspiracy. Too much Hollywood depicts this massive monolithic entity called "The Government" where massive warehouses of secret things are hidden from John Q public by the secret society. The DOD is probably the most secretive of all and I have not ever seen such a well organized internal secret society despite having very significant security clearances in my day. Most people in Govt are just like you, doing the best they can, and I doubt the fate of AE and FN would be significant enough to those privy to such a secret to perpetuate it so long. My experience is such that as soon as people start talking about a theory that includes such "Govt conspiracy" I tune them out.
JB
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Have you considered the possibility that the notations R 39 and B 946 might mean:
R-39 referred to a body “remains -39” ; reason, a rather small number of dead people found around the islands.
The B – 946 could signify “ Box” – 946 as ruminates of material found at various sites in the island area.
No, I hadn't thought of that.
But I spent many hours reading WPHC indexes, files, and correspondence. I didn't notice a body count or box count anywhere else in the system.