TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Brad Beeching on April 06, 2012, 01:39:50 PM
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It has been proposed here that the castaways may have been able to use whatever water remained in the casks at the Norwich City cache. (http://tighar.org/wiki/Norwich_City#Provisions_and_Equipment_Left_at_the_Norwich_City_Survivor.27s_Shelter) It would seem to be reasonable to assume that the water in the casks or the tanks from the lifeboat (http://tighar.org/wiki/File:Norwich_City_Lifeboat_1938_(Wigram_AFB_Archives)).jpg) would remain potable. However, it appears as though this would be extremely improbable due to the conditions at the time. There are a host of pathogenic microorganisms that must be neutralized for water to be considered “safe”. These organisms include: bacteria, viruses and parasitic protozoa. In modern water/wastewater treatment there are three principal pathogens that must be removed from the water before it is considered “safe” Giardia Lamblia, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giardiasis) Cryptosporidiosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptosporidiosis) and E Coli. There are a host of others, but these are the principal organisms that are focused on in the US. There are several ways to disinfect drinking water (http://www.lenntech.com/processes/disinfection/introduction/introduction-water-disinfection.htm): by Filtration, Chlorination, UV, to name a few. As far as I have been able to find, the casks were filled on the Norwich City (http://tighar.org/wiki/SS_Norwich_City). According to International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Convention_for_the_Safety_of_Life_at_Sea) the modern requirement is for the fresh water to be refilled every month in each lifeboat. Did the crew of the N.C. perform to a similar requirement? How was water purified on board? In modern times, purified, properly stored water can last in a potable condition for about a year. You will see canned emergency water out there but it will have an expiration date (or should have). In the conditions that exist on Niku in a wooden cask, equatorial temperatures, exposed to sunlight, seawater and storms? If much at all remained after 8 years you can safely be assured that it was not potable strait out of the cask. If they boiled it, then filtered it through a densely woven cloth and then passed it back and forth between receptacles to aerate the water, you might make it reasonably safe. Was that what the castaway was doing at the Seven Site (http://tighar.org/wiki/Seven_site)? If it were AE/FN that seemingly ransacked the Norwich City cache is there any evidence left? Has the cache been found by Tighar?
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Thanks Brad, clears a few questions and posses some more.
You are now open to Chris's "stupid questions" that help me to understand more.
Would Boiling only not do for the bacteria and protoza type bacteria?
If these organisms grew in the water would they also have a 'sell by date' and not die off?
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Boiling the water may or may not kill all the bacteria. Certainly will reduce the numbers by a significant amount, even by EPA regulation treated wastewater and drinking water has a residual amount of contaminates present. I was not able to find out how fresh water was treated on the NC. Any
squids err... navy men out there might answer that question. Was the Klineshmitt Still in common use when the NC was built? The problem with storing water for long periods is that the residual organisms continue to grow and multiply, eventually using up the available oxygen in the water. At that point the organisms begin to change from aerobic (oxygen needing) to anaerobic (not needing oxygen) the result is black, stagnant water. Also a point to consider is contamination by salt water, hydrocarbons, contaminates leaching out of the container the water is stored in, the list goes on. Was it possible that some water remained usable? Certainly. Was it probable I wouldn't bet on it. Look closely at the condition of the lifeboat (http://tighar.org/wiki/File:Norwich_City_Lifeboat_1938_(Wigram_AFB_Archives)).jpg), see how the gunwales are pushed down? Look under the gunwale about two strakes, the wood has popped out strait, I'll bet her back is broken and the bottom has flattened out against the sand. If she had ballast tanks installed, I wonder if they have been opened with the strain? If they were used to store fresh water (some types of lifeboats did) did the tank break? If the top broke exposing the water in the tank to the atmosphere, the water would become infested with all the above and probably a whole lot more. A castaway would have to find a fork to ingest anything coming out of THAT tank!
ps I just found this : Risk Analysis of Shipboard Drinking Water (http://bluewaternavy.org/harbors/riskanalysisNavyships.pdf)
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OK but what about water in a container with an "air tight2 seal? I beleive that water was stored that way and was part of the NC supplies.
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Being in an "airtight" container merely slows the process, if the water has enough residual contaminates in it, they will grow. And something I forgot to mention, as these organisms use up the oxygen and food available... they become canabalistic and eat each other... still thirsty?
Brad
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OK, throws a very wide ball to the out field, what about water that has been underground in a aquifa (sp) that is bottled for consumption by people with too much money and not enough brains?????
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GroundWater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundwater) from an uncontaminated aquifer is actually sterile. It is actually harder to purify groundwater than surface water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_water) because most freshwater plants use some kind of coagulation and filtering, followed by disinfection. Surface sources are inherently loaded with all kinds of material that coagulates easily and thus can be filtered out easily. The less material, the harder (and more expensive) it is to clean groundwater. Does that make sense? If you live in a small town and your water bill seems to be getting expensive, chances are you are getting your water from a groundwater source and not surface water.
Brad
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Sooo what would make casked water (canned or stored) contaminated over "groundwater"that is uncominted?
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Has the cache been found by Tighar?
No.
I believe that the Norwich City article (http://tighar.org/wiki/Norwich_City) summarizes pretty much everything that TIGHAR has discovered about the Norwich City, so far.
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Cache or caches? We have NC camp 0, then they move the camp, then with the rescue boats they move again to camp 'Z', the final camp. Could we have 3 caches of supplies?
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would the toilet hopper on plane carry fresh water or was it a commode type toilet ?
i have goggled about it only to find pics thou ?
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The problem with storing water for long periods is that the residual organisms continue to grow and multiply, eventually using up the available oxygen in the water. At that point the organisms begin to change from aerobic (oxygen needing) to anaerobic (not needing oxygen) the result is black, stagnant water.
Yep, that is why they carried beer on long voyages in sailing ships.
gl
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Well, as stated earlier, the caskes were filled (or should have been) filled on board the Norwich City. If you read Risk Analysis of Shipboard Drinking Water
(http://bluewaternavy.org/harbors/riskanalysisNavyships.pdf) they point out several concerns about polluted water sources. Remember there wasn't a Safe Drinking Water Act in 1929. To what standard did the crew manufacture drinking water? What was it stored in before being put in the casks or tanks? If the crew didn't clean out the fresh water bunkers, or didn't do a thorough job of it, any number of ways can contaminate a water source. Maybe the cook was a slob and didn't wash or maybe somebody had a grudge? As stated above, even with our modern disinfecting methods some organisms and contaminates survive. Thats all it takes
Brad
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would the toilet hopper on plane carry fresh water or was it a commode type toilet ?
i have goggled about it only to find pics thou ?
No disrespect Richie but go get a mug full from your loo and down it on one!!!!
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no u dont get what i mean, was the toilet a cistern style were u could flush it or was it a commode
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why????
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i.e because clean water is in ur cistern right unless u on the space station were they recycle :)
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ok good point but after 7 days the bird is gone.
Is the WC just a hole?
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Yep, that is why they carried beer on long voyages in sailing ships.
Yes and it's also where India Pale Ale (IPA) comes from. The British developed it because even beer shipped unrefrigerated for long voyages still went bad. So to insure that the colonials in sunny India got something palatable to drink, the brew masters started to introduce massive quantities of Hops, thus introducing a preservative to the brew...
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dunno thats what am askin ?
it says in a few round the world flight documents amelia had the runs an was exhausted so i hope not :o
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Brad - IPA is a fantastic brew
Richie - love your sideways glance at things, water from the cystern (if i have to be marooned on a island i'd chuck thebeatles discs and have you instead - lol )
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haha thanks but the disc's prob more useful it's only took me nearly 2 years to get imaginative ;D
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haha thanks but the disc's prob more useful it's only took me nearly 2 years to get imaginative ;D
cool
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Was the Electra's toilet a chemical type like the Elsan which was in widespread use in aircraft in WW2? These are compact and designed to be emptied at the end of a flight.
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I think that the matter of any potable water surviving in that lifeboat after 8 years is a complete red herring. I am in full agreement with Brad's clearly put reasons for this. In the final analysis Earhart and Noonan if they landed on the reef at Nikumaroro (and that is still a very big if), would have had three sources of potable water. Any that was on the aircraft, pools of fresh rainwater and at a very long and distant third any they may have been able to get from a well which given their conditions would have been a very hard and exhausting thing to dig.
I am leaving aside the question of opening coconuts because having tried it I can say it isn't easy even in much easier conditions than the aviators would have experienced and building some sort of still because keeping that going would have been exhausting work for the very little water it would have produced.
In the long run simple survival on the island (if indeed they actually landed there) for any length of time over a week would have been extremely difficult for two people sharing the load of gathering food, water and firewood and impossible for one person because the longer they were there the weaker they would have got and any injury or infection incurred in the daily survival battle would have further debilitated them. We also forget the mental trauma and despair they would have experienced as after a couple of days of the hypothesised attempts at radio contact failed to produce any acknowledgement.
I suspect that at most there was a window of about a fortnight in which they could have been rescued alive - after that no.
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Mal,
i tend to agree but for my own interest I like to get to understand why, which is why I ask questions that can appear stupid to some.
If there was a chance that they could somehow purify the water to drink it then it has to be looked into as some people believe that one or both of them survived longer than your 2 weeks.
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Mal,
i tend to agree but for my own interest I like to get to understand why, which is why I ask questions that can appear stupid to some.
If there was a chance that they could somehow purify the water to drink it then it has to be looked into as some people believe that one or both of them survived longer than your 2 weeks.
One thing I note from reading the accounts of the Norwich City wreck and the 1938 survey expedition is that it was remarkable how quickly diarrhea broke out amongst the people involved. The captain of the Norwich City asked for chlorodyne when the rescue ship arrived and in the account of the 1938 survey it is noted that after the natives had gorged themselves on the crabs they came down with diarrhea. These outbreaks were in people who were conditioned either to the basic diet of sailors or natives accustomed to their own food staples, not people being exposed to an exotic and unfamiliar diet for the first time.
I'm not a physician however I suspect that this was probably due to the richness of the crab meat in various oils rather than any germs. Now amongst many things diarrhea dehydrates the body pretty rapidly if unchecked. Now if Earhart and Noonan were relying on crabs and sea birds (also oil rich) for food then to me it seems not unlikely that they would have contracted diarrhea fairly quickly. Unless they had a steady supply of uncontaminated water, and chloradyne or some other drug to control their bowels, then anything they drank would simply have exacerbated the diarrhea and hastened the inevitable causing rapid weakening and eventual incapacity.
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diarrhea could account for the need for additional water supplies if the original was contaminated
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diarrhea could account for the need for additional water supplies if the original was contaminated
Oh I don't for one minute doubt the need for water, but the problem is that if they had developed diarrhea from the food available on the island I doubt that after a few days they would have had the strength to do much physical work to obtain either food or water. Diarrhea not only produces the familiar symptom but there would also be stomach cramps as well. For the sailors from the Norwich City and the natives similarly afflicted in the 1938 visit who had support from others it was just a rather messy and embarrassing affliction. In the hypothetical case that Earhart and Noonan landed on the island they only had themselves. As they progressively weakened they would have lacked the capacity to do heavy work like digging a well and they probably would have been forced to drink whatever was available and that would, as I have said, only made things worse. That is why I doubt that they could have survived very long - extreme temperatures, dehydration and malnutrition kill pretty quickly. But I doubt very much that there was any water potable or otherwise available in that abandoned lifeboat - not after 8 years.
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Diarrhoea and vomiting accelerates the process of dehydration. So drinking contaminated water would have been the first step in the downward spiral leading to renal failure, confusion, lethargy and eventual demise. You could possibly survive a few days without water but, add diarrhoea and vomiting then it's goodnight Vienna. IMHO
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diarrhea could account for the need for additional water supplies if the original was contaminated
I was meaning the need to re supply the NC crew if they found their water was contaminated.
I'm on a mission to find potential sources of water and then look at the suitableness of them for AE/FN
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I believe that if any containers were breached then you have to also allow for evaporation. Either way I can't imagine water that has been stored for many years could be potable without major treatment. Could it in fact be safer to just work with sea water and try desalinization knowing salt was the only " enemy" contained within? Or would AE and FN just open the cans and drink from desperation and not think about the waters " state"?
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Something else to consider, diarrhea from drinking bad water in the conditions that exist on Niku is not the only issue. The simple act of eating exacerbates the dehydration. My survival manual and some other info I have read, all state the same thing, find a clean source of water first before eating. It seems possible that the castaway could have eaten themselves to death. I am a land lubber so bear with me. What is the salt content of the items the castaway appeared to be consuming, and could it have played a roll in how fast the castaway perished?
Brad
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Spot on brad, salt plays a major role in regulating the bodies fluid balance so, too much and, too little both cause problems. Not drinking enough fluids causes the salt level in the body to increase, a vicous spiral, not enough to drink = salt level increases and so on...
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This from http://www.equipped.org/watrfood.htm#SweetWater
a site providing information on survival methods and equipment. It states that prepackaged water is Coast Guard approved for a 5 year storage life and tap water is good for six months or a year.
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"Water and Food Group
I cannot possibly over emphasize THE CRITICAL IMPORTANCE OF CARRYING ADEQUATE SUPPLIES OF WATER. It may weigh a lot (2.08 lbs/quart plus container), but nothing is more vital for your body. Generally speaking, you can survive for weeks without food, but only days, or less in some circumstances, without water. Water is essential for your body and mind to function properly. You need both working as well as possible. The adverse effects of dehydration on your mental faculties, even mild dehydration, as little as 5% to 10%, are insidious and extremely dangerous in a survival situation.
The more arid the region you live in, travel through or fly over, the more water you should carry. The only reliable source of water in the desert, particularly in the summer months, is what you bring along! During the summer months in my desert area I carry a minimum of an extra gallon of water per person. Two extra gallons wouldn't be unreasonable. Minimum recommended for most climates is one quart per person and you should carry more, if possible. Always carry some water with you. In an emergency, for immediate medical or other uses, you may not have time to procure it, even in areas where it is readily available.
Packaged waterYou can use prepackaged water in 125 ml flexible pouches, "flex-paks," (4.227 fl. oz./ 1/8 qt.) (S.O.S. Food Labs and Mainstay are two of the most commonly available brands, but there are dozens worldwide that package this way), 250 ml "Aqua Blox" aseptic packages identical in concept to the boxes juice and other drinks are packaged in, including a little straw attached to each box, (8.45 fl. oz. / 1/4 qt.) or bottled water off the grocery store shelf in plastic bottles.
One disadvantage to the flex-paks and the Aqua Blox, is they have a tendency to leak when squeezed or crushed, as might occur when tightly packed in a survival kit. This is particularly a problem with the flex-paks. Best to vacuum pack them or place them inside a Zip-Lock style plastic bag. The flex-paks are also very easily punctured, so be careful how you pack and handle them. Finally, once opened, the flex-paks must be consumed or the water stored in another container because they cannot be resealed. One option is to pack the flex-packs inside a large mouth water bottle for protection, which also gives you a suitable water container with little wasted space.
TAqua Bloxhe Aqua Blox have sturdier packaging than even the conventional aseptic boxed liquids and thus stand up to abuse far better than the flex-packs. Their boxed shape makes them much easier to pack in most kits. The included straw makes is far less likely that any precious water will be wasted. While they cannot technically be resealed, we have found that a piece of duct tape does a fair improvised job of resealing the package. For most uses, we prefer the Aqua Blox to the flex-paks, but they do generally cost a bit more.
Both the flex-paks and Aqua Blox are USCG Approved with five year shelf lives.
Alternatively, you can use canteens or similar containers. These can be filled at home. Tap water or purified "bottled" water is generally good for six months to a year's storage if kept away from the light. Or, you can sterilize the water and storage containers like done for home canning, assuming they will hold a vacuum, and it will last for years, just as the prepackaged water will.
An easier way to sanitize the containers is to use an Iodophor solution. Iodophor solutions are iodine based sanitizers commonly used in the food and beverage industry and a typical 4 oz. bottle will be more than enough and it is inexpensive. Almost any supplier of home brewing equipment and supplies will have it in stock and will be able to offer tips on proper dilution of the concentrate and contact time, which generally only takes a few minutes.
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Being in an "airtight" container merely slows the process, if the water has enough residual contaminates in it, they will grow. And something I forgot to mention, as these organisms use up the oxygen and food available... they become canabalistic and eat each other... still thirsty?
Brad
Does this mean that I have to throw out all those bottles of Perrier that I have in the garage as part of my doomsday preparation, I know they have been out there more than a year?
gl
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Does this mean that I have to throw out all those bottles of Perrier that I have in the garage as part of my doomsday preparation, I know they have been out there more than a year?
gl
I have never equated stockpiling Perrier with creating doomsday - this opens a whole new can of worms, or bottle of microbes. ;)
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I have never equated stockpiling Perrier with creating doomsday - this opens a whole new can of worms, or bottle of microbes. ;)
Not "creating" doomsday, just preparing to deal with it if it happens.
gl
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Well Gary. You're right to be prepared. After all it is 2012 :-)
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Well Gary. You're right to be prepared. After all it is 2012 :-)
That explains it!!!!!!!
Earhart and Noonan were abducted by Mayans and flown to the Yucatan Peninsula in a Mayan Air Force Flying Burrito.
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Malcolm!! Shhhh! Don't let the story out. Everyone's enjoying the TIGHAR hypothesis!!
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Both the flex-paks and Aqua Blox are USCG Approved with five year shelf lives.
I don't believe these were available in 1929. I'm sure by now we can trust everything we read on a package label. Why not buy some to go along with your Perrier and let us know how the water looks under a micoscope after 5 years. Or better yet, throw em under a sail covered awning on Niku for 8 years and give us a report on how it turned out. ;D
Tap water or purified "bottled" water is generally good for six months to a year's storage if kept away from the light.
Exactly.
I contend that the crew of the Norwich City wasn't too concerned about what microbes may have been lurking in the water they used to fill the emergency water casks with in 1929. Unless they had a way to sterilize the water, sterilize a wooden cask, make it airtight and then insure that the cask didn't leak from both directions for 8 years in an equatorial climate, battered by ocean storms (if not seawater) sun and wind (which tends to dry out wood) If there was any water in the casks at all it would have been non-potable. If your Perrier was filled strait from your city tap with no alteration by you I would consider emptying, disinfecting the bottles with a good disinfectant ( you mentioned Iodifor) and refilling the bottles with laboratory grade H20. And if you can keep them from the atmosphere you should be fine for a while.
If a person wants to store water for long term, use a good Food Grade glass container. Be sure to NOT use leaded glass as over time the lead will leach out of the glass and contaminate the water. You can use food grade plastics as well, buy stay away from containers that stored butter or fats in them as they too will leach out oils and contaminate the water. Home Depot buckets are not food grade and are permeable, (oxygen passes through the plastic). They also will leach out PCB's and other toxins into whatever you have stored in them.
Brad
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Something else to consider, diarrhea from drinking bad water in the conditions that exist on Niku is not the only issue. The simple act of eating exacerbates the dehydration. My survival manual and some other info I have read, all state the same thing, find a clean source of water first before eating. It seems possible that the castaway could have eaten themselves to death. I am a land lubber so bear with me. What is the salt content of the items the castaway appeared to be consuming, and could it have played a roll in how fast the castaway perished?
Brad
Now I'll make this clear from the start I am not a marine biologist or an ornithologist, simply an old archaeologist :) . As far as I know salt does not accumulate in the bodies of marine creatures like shellfish, crabs or fish or in the bodies of birds. The reason being if I remember correctly is that these creatures secrete the salt in one way or another. If they retained the salt they would also retain the toxic substances that are dissolved in salt water. Seawater is not just a simple mixture of water and sodium chloride, it also contains other dissolved minerals a number of which if allowed to accumulate would like sodium chloride eventually prove fatal. There is in animal flesh a natural salt content anyway but this is not of the same strength as the salt in sea water.
Apropos the loss of bodily salt through sweating and subsequent dehydration this is, as I understand it, a process of losing electrolytes which are a range of salts including others that are not our familiar table salt - sodium chloride. As this wikipedia article explains it far better than I can I'll just link it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytes . It is the loss of these electrolytes which are the main cause of fatality in dehydration.
Coming back to the diet available to Earhart and Noonan the principle cause it appears of any diarrhea they might have suffered would be what the evidence available from the Norwich City wreck survivors and the natives on the 1937 expedition tells us, which was eating the coconut crabs and shellfish. If you were to add sea birds to this then you have a dietary disaster. And eating coconuts would not help either - the last thing someone with diarrhea needs is fibre to prevent constipation.
I would suspect that the only birds that Earhart and Noonan would have been able to catch would have been chicks or nestlings which at that stage in their growth are being fed by their parents and rapidly accumulating fat in preparation for their adult lives as ocean wanderers. These chicks would have a very high fat and oil content in their bodies which although nutritious would also be the last thing anyone with dysentery or diarrhea should eat. To put it bluntly you would only be borrowing the meal for a few minutes - straight through. :(
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I would suspect that the only birds that Earhart and Noonan would have been able to catch would have been chicks or nestlings which at that stage in their growth are being fed by their parents and rapidly accumulating fat in preparation for their adult lives as ocean wanderers. These chicks would have a very high fat and oil content in their bodies which although nutritious would also be the last thing anyone with dysentery or diarrhea should eat. To put it bluntly you would only be borrowing the meal for a few minutes - straight through.
I could be wrong but due to lack of contact with humans the birds on Gardner/Niku are apparently more approachable so could be caught whilst nesting on the ground.
Is there evidence that the NC crew ate coconut or other crabs? to facilitate diarrhea!
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I could be wrong but due to lack of contact with humans the birds on Gardner/Niku are apparently more approachable so could be caught whilst nesting on the ground.
The demise of the Dodo Chris
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Yes but also the poor old Dodo was flightless but yes an example of where birds with no experience of humans become easy prey.
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That's correct Chris, it couldn't quite outrun us humans, sad.
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Do we know for sure that casks of water were left for future castaways by the Norwich City crew? I thought that I had read this somewhere but I cannot recall where.
I have wondered about the 1940 report from Gallagher where he reports finding “corks with brass chains” thought to have come from a “small cask". These were found with the bones on Gardner. It is interesting that there were multiple chains and corks implying that there were multiple casks since you would probably not require multiple corks for a single cask.
See Volume 15, 1999 pp. 42 – 50, Part 2 (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/15_1/clues2.html).
This suggest that if maybe the bones were AE, then she must have found casks on the island since they were not probably packing casks of water on the Electra. I would venture to guess that if any water was carried by AE and FN this would have been in glass bottles or a perhaps a canteen of some sort. It also would seem that the quantity of water carried would be only for satisfying their thirst for the 20 hour trip and was not part of a "survival kit".
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Yes but also the poor old Dodo was flightless but yes an example of where birds with no experience of humans become easy prey.
Of interest is that the Dodo was not a victim of humans - its flesh was discovered to be absolutely awful to the taste by a few brave souls who tried it. It was introduced vermin that did for it like rats.