TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: richie conroy on December 28, 2011, 08:34:51 AM
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just come across this on this website http://www.daileyint.com/flying/flyingd.htm
(http://www.daileyint.com/flying/lxerht37.jpg)
thought might be of some use
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just come across this on this website http://www.daileyint.com/flying/flyingd.htm (http://www.daileyint.com/flying/flyingd.htm)
It's a pretty picture, but neither it nor the website add any details to Randy Jacobson's masterful account of the Lexington's search (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Lexingtonsearch.html#t55).
The only date information that I can see on the map is 180 - 0 degrees on 14 July 1937 and a total trip time of 4 July to 18 July 1937. I wonder whether this was a souvenir drawing for sailors who crossed the equator for the first time in their career? That might help to account for the doodle of the ship's profile--that makes it look like a souvenir to me, rather than a chart meant for serious navigation. Or perhaps it was produced for the whole crew? The title "In Search of Amelia Earhart" suggests an eye on history.
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FWIW, I find it interesting that the author (Frankin E. Dailey Jr.) believes this to be an Official USS Lexington Sea Chart fragment. Never seen a Sea Chart before so I have not a clue. Below quoted from website referenced by Richie.
This browned, aged chart almost certainly originated in the Lexington's Navigation Dept. "Pacific Ocean" looks official. It is intelligently detailed. Anyone aware of 20th century aviation history would take immediate notice. I would assess it as a USS Lexington sea chart fragment showing her 1937 transit, in response to orders to find a missing aircraft, the specially configured Electra 10 model, piloted by Amelia Earhart. (A Lockheed Electra 10, and Amelia, are featured, for unrelated reasons, in another of my books, "The Triumph of Instrument Flight: A Retrospective in the Century of U.S. Aviation.")
The short curved segments around Howland Island would represent Lexington's aircraft, launched for intense coverage in a perimeter around the island Earhart was attempting to reach, non-stop, from Lae, 2201 nautical miles away. (First numeral verified on original.) Phillip hand-drew the profile, unmistakably the Lexington. To put dates in context, Amelia's takeoff from Lae was 2 July E. Long.; that would be 1 July in West Longitude.
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FWIW, I find it interesting that the author (Frankin E. Dailey Jr.) believes this to be an Official USS Lexington Sea Chart fragment. Never seen a Sea Chart before so I have not a clue.
I have no doubt it is from the navigators.
I doubt that it is "official," in the sense of being used by them for navigating.
It is a summary of the ship's trip, "there and back," with a doodle in the lower right-hand corner.
I doubt that "official" charts had pictures of the ship's profile drawn on them.
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just come across this on this website http://www.daileyint.com/flying/flyingd.htm (http://www.daileyint.com/flying/flyingd.htm)
It's a pretty picture, but neither it nor the website add any details to Randy Jacobson's masterful account of the Lexington's search (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Lexingtonsearch.html#t55).
The only date information that I can see on the map is 180 - 0 degrees on 14 July 1937 and a total trip time of 4 July to 18 July 1937. I wonder whether this was a souvenir drawing for sailors who crossed the equator for the first time in their career? That might help to account for the doodle of the ship's profile--that makes it look like a souvenir to me, rather than a chart meant for serious navigation. Or perhaps it was produced for the whole crew? The title "In Search of Amelia Earhart" suggests an eye on history.
I think Marty is bang on correct. What a great souvenir of the search.
Here is a link to a selection of older nautical maps. Quite a difference. http://www.google.ca/search?q=naval+charts+australia&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#sclient=tablet-gws&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&source=hp&q=picture+of+a+1935+naval+chart&pbx=1&oq=picture+of+a+1935+naval+chart&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=9760l12597l0l13616l5l5l0l0l0l0l422l1277l0.2.2.0.1l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=a5d3a2c5563f73ea&biw=1024&bih=644 (http://www.google.ca/search?q=naval+charts+australia&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#sclient=tablet-gws&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&source=hp&q=picture+of+a+1935+naval+chart&pbx=1&oq=picture+of+a+1935+naval+chart&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=9760l12597l0l13616l5l5l0l0l0l0l422l1277l0.2.2.0.1l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=a5d3a2c5563f73ea&biw=1024&bih=644)
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tell ye what would be good, if Tighar could get someone to create an Amelia Earhart flight simulator app for I phone, so people could get a better feel for the flight an predict what might of happened, charge say £2.99 with the money going to Tighar funds :)
just an idea, dont know what it would cost to create so dont know if it would be worth it or not,
actully it's wishful thinkin on my side :o
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It's a pretty picture, but neither it nor the website add any details to Randy Jacobson's masterful account of the Lexington's search (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Lexingtonsearch.html#t55).
Are deck logs (like the Colorado) available for the Lexington too? Either in the book or otherwise.
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Are deck logs (like the Colorado) available for the Lexington too? Either in the book or otherwise.
This site (http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq73-1.htm) describes the US Navy deck logs that are available and how they may be obtained. The Lexington would fall under this section:
Held by The National Archives
Deck logs of commissioned U.S. Navy ships from the earliest times through 1940 are in the Old Military and Civil Branch, National Archives and Records Administration, 700 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington DC 20408 [Telephone (202) 501-5385,web-site http://www.archives.gov/dc-metro/washington/]. Logs from 1941 through those that are 30 years old or older are in the Modern Military Branch, National Archives, 8601 Adelphi Road, College Park MD 20740-6001 [Telephone (301) 837-3510]. These logs are open for research. Requests for research appointments, and inquiries concerning log information, should go to the National Archives office holding logs from the time period of interest.
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It's a pretty picture, but neither it nor the website add any details to Randy Jacobson's masterful account of the Lexington's search (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Lexingtonsearch.html#t55).
Are deck logs (like the Colorado) available for the Lexington too? Either in the book or otherwise.
1. Here is a page that lists 13 methods (http://tighar.org/news/help/82-how-do-i-search-tigharorg) by which you can see if you can find answers yourself. It's not that hard. I put "lexington logs" in the search box. The link below was the third on the results page.
2. Here is a .pdf transcription (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/JacobsonDatabase/NAVIG/LEX.PDF) by the indefatigable Jacobson.
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It's a pretty picture, but neither it nor the website add any details to Randy Jacobson's masterful account of the Lexington's search (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Lexingtonsearch.html#t55).
Are deck logs (like the Colorado) available for the Lexington too? Either in the book or otherwise.
1. Here is a page that lists 13 methods (http://tighar.org/news/help/82-how-do-i-search-tigharorg) by which you can see if you can find answers yourself. It's not that hard. I put "lexington logs" in the search box. The link below was the third on the results page.
2. Here is a .pdf transcription (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/JacobsonDatabase/NAVIG/LEX.PDF) by the indefatigable Jacobson.
Thanks. That works. For some reason I didn't get the same hits you did with the search engine. Perhaps a google algorithim.
Searching more, I also found this map created by TIGHAR. I hadn't seen this visualisation before. Wow.
(http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/searchmaps/searchmap.gif)
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Thanks. That works. For some reason I didn't get the same hits you did with the search engine. Perhaps a google algorithim.
OK. Stuff happens.
Searching more, I also found this map created by TIGHAR. I hadn't seen this visualisation before. Wow.
I don't remember seeing that before. It is definitely a thing of beauty!
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http://www.oceandots.com/gmv.php?lat=-4.675&long=-174.525&place=Nikumaroro
check this out good for close view ov niku
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http://www.oceandots.com/gmv.php?lat=-4.675&long=-174.525&place=Nikumaroro (http://www.oceandots.com/gmv.php?lat=-4.675&long=-174.525&place=Nikumaroro)
Download and install Google Earth (http://www.google.com/earth/index.html) on your computer. That's where that image came from.
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i have google earth the link is to a high resolution image
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also they really must off thought she went down north of howland
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Hi Richie;
Thanks for the great link. I had noticed that, because this is high resolution, you can zoom down much closer and see better detail than the standard Google Earth maps. It makes me wonder how much detail a government spy satellite can see.
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The Military Search reminds me of a little ditty that I learned during my military service. It goes like this:
When in Danger or in Doubt, Run in Circles, Scream and Shout,
Raise the Flag and Shoot the Gun, and get the Word
Well Done!
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i have google earth the link is to a high resolution image
It is exactly the same photo as used in Google Earth.
Putting the two side-by-side, I guess you can get a slightly better view. I wouldn't rank it as hugely more useful than the Google earth view, which is much easier to navigate.
YMMV.
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Hi Richie;
Thanks for the great link. I had noticed that, because this is high resolution, you can zoom down much closer and see better detail than the standard Google Earth maps. It makes me wonder how much detail a government spy satellite can see.
well if u go to bottom of page on this link http://www.cifr.it/forum64.html
he says the japaneze have photo's an maps of islands from as early as 1931
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What interests me about the high resolution image (thanks Richie!) is that, as I browse around areas that were pretty heavily used (such as the LORAN station area), there's just about nothing visible to my untrained eye. That gives me new perspective on just how daunting the search task is. Looks like there's just about nothing left of the Norwich City. As usual, every time I see a straight line or a right angle, I wonder if it's digitization artifact or man-made object...
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My earlier post about it being more high resolution turned out to be a function of the PC I was using and version of Google Earth. As Jeff said you can match those shots cloud for cloud.
I think Richie that you're doing a great job at digging information out of the Internet. Please keep it up.
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The graphic below is convincing that the navy used a sound analytical approach at the time in 1937 and that much ground (and sea...) was covered.
I covered this in great detail in Finding Amelia.
When I look at the graphic I am appalled that so little time and so few assets were dedicated to searching the islands of the Phoenix Group given the volume of evidence the Navy had indicating that Earhart and Noonan were there and had been calling for help. To me, the crucial failure occurred on July 10 when Capt. Friedell (USS Colorado) sent the following message to Admiral Murfin who was directing the search from Pearl Harbor:
“With completion [of] flight this afternoon, all islands Phoenix Group have been located and carefully searched for any sign of Earhart plane or inhabitants with exception Winslow reef and reef and sandbank to the northward. The charted position of these places and for several miles in vicinity was covered twice without locating them.”
The logic seemed to go:
• the post-loss radio signals indicated that the plane must be on land somewhere in the Phoenix Group
• Colorado has carefully searched all islands of the Phoenix Group and found no sign of the Earhart plane or inhabitants
• Therefore, all of the post-loss radio signals must have been bogus
At that point, Colorado was released, Lexington took over, and the rest of the search was conducted in areas based entirely upon speculation and supposition. The post-loss signals had stopped before Colorado began searching the Phoenix Group and nobody seems to have considered the possibility that the plane may have been washed off a reef or hidden in dense vegetation. On the voyage out from California, Lexington had drawn up a plan for sweeping vast stretches of open ocean with its aircraft. Friedell's claim that the Phoenix Group could be eliminated opened the door for that plan to be put in operation - which is exactly what happened.
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Jeff,
Raising several points about the Bayesian analysis (which I use extensively in my own field).
This approach existed long before 1966, and was even use extensively during the 19th century.
Some of the most spectacular successes has been the cracking of the ENIGMA machine, using essentially Bayesian statistics. And I suspect that 10th Fleet also used something similar for tracking U-boats in the Atlantic, and was not suddenly discovered in 1966.
That said, these applications were so successful because one of the most important thing in Bayesian analysis, the knowledge of the prior distribution of probabilities, was extensive. Same thing with search of the Titanic, the searcher could express a 100% certainty that it was in certain part of the Atlantic if they choose a sufficiently big part of the ocean.
In the case of AE your are sure of nothing, therefore as you said, if you feed wrong data in the formulas in won’t help at all, you will only have the illusion of progressing.
Another point, the Monte-Carlo analysis in one of the tools that allows making a Bayesian analysis; the other technique was solving integrals, but with the advent of computer Monte-Carlo simulation is much easier.
Edgard
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Hi folks. What would happen if a second method such as the Bayesian, was calculated and the results overlaid onto the familiar Monte Carlo map? Is that possible? Secondly, can the results of one set of calculations validate another? Or, since we are working with one data set, would we just get the same result? Validation then of only the data entered. Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?
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Irv,
As I said to Jeff, the Monte-Carlo IS the Bayesian approach
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Irv,
As I said to Jeff, the Monte-Carlo IS the Bayesian approach
BUT it only goes so far as to put the airplane within a certain area at a certain time BEFORE what we think the end of the flight would have been -
That is why I realize it is a similar tool (same approach, yes) but only a subset of what we'd have if we extended the tool to embrace further information - like LOP, presumptions about how attractive the Phoenix group was (we think), etc.
But I understand those are not 'knowns' - and the message that AE could be in a very large box.
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Jeff,
The examples of real success using the bayesian search method is practically always in cases for which the users new for sure that they were on the right track but could also afford to look in a large area; money wasn't practically an issue. And by the way don't forget that it is possible that when they found the Titanic, they new exactly where to look as it is possible that Ballard was told of the results of oceanographic searches undertaken by NATO navies for other purposes who stumbled on the wreck (don't forget Ballard was/is a US Navy officer on an official misson just days before).
In the present situation, the search by TIGHAR, the best implementation of bayesian analysis could be to model the external influences of a plane landing on the reef, where TIGHAR believes it landed, and incorporate the external ellements (wind, tide, hurricanes, current, and I don't know what). But if those ellement are known only unprecisely it is doubtfull that it will be of a great help.