TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Celestial choir => Topic started by: John Ousterhout on December 19, 2011, 10:12:09 PM
-
I believe it is safe to assume that Fred Noonan had a Sextant or Octant on the last flight. Some folks think he had two, but the actual evidence of a second one on the Earhart flight is not well supported.
Harry Manning loaned FN a US Navy Pioneer Bubble Octant, #12-36, in a letter (edit: actually a note, see reply #2 below) dated March 20, 1937. (http://tighar.org/wiki/File:Noonan_Octant_Receipt.jpg) It may be the one used on the last flight.
Gary LaPook posted pictures of Harry Manning with a Bausch & Lomb model A-6 octant, showing it to AE (Gary - do you know the dates of the photos?). It may be the one used on the last flight.
Helen Day, a friend of Fred's, noted that he had in his posession an octant box (Re: Why wasn't Gardiner identified in the radio messages? Reply #132, in which GL references "East To The Dawn", by Susan Butler). It may be the one used on the last flight, and may be one of the ones mentioned above.
FN loaned a sextant to W. A. Kluthe, "...who at that time was studying navigation under Mr. Noonan in preparing for service in the Pacific Division of Pan American Airways, for use in practice praticle [sic] navigation." (TIGHAR TRACKS,Vol. 14, No. 1). It was NOT the one on the last flight - it's at the National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, Florida.
Some folks go out on a limb and suggest that a second sextant on the Lockheed was the source for the box that was reported by Gallagher on Gardner in 1940. This may be backward reasoning, assuming the presence of a second sextant to explain the box reported by Gallagher that proves AE must have landed on Gardner. Forward reasoning would begin with what is known of the boxes on board the Lockheed, and trying to match them to the box reported by Gallagher. After all, we KNOW that Fred had an Octant or Sextant with some kind of protective box, but we don't know what sort of box it was.
A separate thread is working to identify what Sextant was assigned to the box reported by Gallagher, so let's let that approach work its way through. It might converge on what I'm proposing here, or might not.
The 1930's was a time during which Aircraft Sextants/Octants rapidly evolved, from modified open-frame "marine" sextants, to completely enclosed hand-held machines. Their cases, or "boxes", also evolved during this time, from a low-profile "flat" box, typical of all previous marine sextant cases, to tall-profile skinny boxes, now generally associated with anything called an aircraft "Octant". There was a transition period in the early-to-mid 1930's when Octants used low-profile boxes. Such a box might be likely to be identified as a "sextant" box in Gallagher's report.
Let's explore what we can about the known and presumed sextants, octants and boxes used by Fred and likely to be on the flight and/or on Gardner island. This approach might rule out Gallagher's box as belonging to the Earhart flight.
-
BTW, a "sextant" has a scale that is 60 degrees wide, making it able to measure angles up to 120 degrees due to the arrangement of the mirrors (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextant). An "octant" is just a short sextant, with a scale that is just 45 degrees wide, able to measure angles up to 90 degrees, since that's all that aircraft needed (see http://tighar.org/wiki/File:Moffettsext.jpg for a marine example). Later versions of aircraft instruments don't resemble traditional open frame marine sextants or octants. The first enclosed Octants appeared about 1931, so the 1937 flight is rather late to be using an open frame Octant.
See also http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/navigation/maker.cfm?makerid=35 for examples of both kinds of instruments, as well as some information about their history.
-
I believe it is safe to assume that Fred Noonan had a Sextant or Octant on the last flight. Some folks think he had two, but the actual evidence of a second one on the Earhart flight is not well supported.
Harry Manning loaned FN a US Navy Pioneer Bubble Octant, #12-36, in a letter dated March 20, 1937. (http://tighar.org/wiki/File:Noonan_Octant_Receipt.jpg) It may be the one used on the last flight.
Gary LaPook posted pictures of Harry Manning with a Bosch & Lomb model A-6 octant, showing it to AE (Gary - do you know the dates of the photos?). It may be the one used on the last flight.
Helen Day, a friend of Fred's, noted that he had in his posession an octant box (Re: Why wasn't Gardiner identified in the radio messages? Reply #132, in which GL references "East To The Dawn", by Susan Butler). It may be the one used on the last flight, and may be one of the ones mentioned above.
FN loaned a sextant to W. A. Kluthe, "...who at that time was studying navigation under Mr. Noonan in preparing for service in the Pacific Division of Pan American Airways, for use in practice praticle [sic] navigation." (TIGHAR TRACKS,Vol. 14, No. 1). It was NOT the one on the last flight - it's at the National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, Florida.
Some folks go out on a limb and suggest that a second sextant on the Lockheed was the source for the box that was reported by Gallagher on Gardner in 1940. This may be backward reasoning, assuming the presence of a second sextant to explain the box reported by Gallagher that proves AE must have landed on Gardner. Forward reasoning would begin with what is known of the boxes on board the Lockheed, and trying to match them to the box reported by Gallagher. After all, we KNOW that Fred had an Octant or Sextant with some kind of protective box, but we don't know what sort of box it was.
A separate thread is working to identify what Sextant was assigned to the box reported by Gallagher, so let's let that approach work its way through. It might converge on what I'm proposing here, or might not.
The 1930's was a time during which Aircraft Sextants/Octants rapidly evolved, from modified open-frame "marine" sextants, to completely enclosed hand-held machines. Their cases, or "boxes", also evolved during this time, from a low-profile "flat" box, typical of all previous marine sextant cases, to tall-profile skinny boxes, now generally associated with anything called an aircraft "Octant". There was a transition period in the early-to-mid 1930's when Octants used low-profile boxes. Such a box might be likely to be identified as a "sextant" box in Gallagher's report.
Let's explore what we can about the known and presumed sextants, octants and boxes used by Fred and likely to be on the flight and/or on Gardner island. This approach might rule out Gallagher's box as belonging to the Earhart flight.
It wasn't a letter, it was just a hand written note written on a "Matson Line" note pad on the ship while Manning and Noonan were still returning to the mainland.
After looking at the instruments at the Smithsonian site, it appears that the octant loaned was the 12th Pioneer octant manufactured in 1936.
If you want a lot of information about sextants, I recommend that you buy the book written by my friend Bill Morris available here: http://sextantbook.com/
gl
-
I believe it is safe to assume that Fred Noonan had a Sextant or Octant on the last flight. Some folks think he had two, but the actual evidence of a second one on the Earhart flight is not well supported.
Harry Manning loaned FN a US Navy Pioneer Bubble Octant, #12-36, in a letter dated March 20, 1937. (http://tighar.org/wiki/File:Noonan_Octant_Receipt.jpg) It may be the one used on the last flight.
Gary LaPook posted pictures of Harry Manning with a Bosch & Lomb model A-6 octant, showing it to AE (Gary - do you know the dates of the photos?). It may be the one used on the last flight.
Helen Day, a friend of Fred's, noted that he had in his posession an octant box (Re: Why wasn't Gardiner identified in the radio messages? Reply #132, in which GL references "East To The Dawn", by Susan Butler). It may be the one used on the last flight, and may be one of the ones mentioned above.
FN loaned a sextant to W. A. Kluthe, "...who at that time was studying navigation under Mr. Noonan in preparing for service in the Pacific Division of Pan American Airways, for use in practice praticle [sic] navigation." (TIGHAR TRACKS,Vol. 14, No. 1). It was NOT the one on the last flight - it's at the National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, Florida.
Some folks go out on a limb and suggest that a second sextant on the Lockheed was the source for the box that was reported by Gallagher on Gardner in 1940. This may be backward reasoning, assuming the presence of a second sextant to explain the box reported by Gallagher that proves AE must have landed on Gardner. Forward reasoning would begin with what is known of the boxes on board the Lockheed, and trying to match them to the box reported by Gallagher. After all, we KNOW that Fred had an Octant or Sextant with some kind of protective box, but we don't know what sort of box it was.
A separate thread is working to identify what Sextant was assigned to the box reported by Gallagher, so let's let that approach work its way through. It might converge on what I'm proposing here, or might not.
The 1930's was a time during which Aircraft Sextants/Octants rapidly evolved, from modified open-frame "marine" sextants, to completely enclosed hand-held machines. Their cases, or "boxes", also evolved during this time, from a low-profile "flat" box, typical of all previous marine sextant cases, to tall-profile skinny boxes, now generally associated with anything called an aircraft "Octant". There was a transition period in the early-to-mid 1930's when Octants used low-profile boxes. Such a box might be likely to be identified as a "sextant" box in Gallagher's report.
Let's explore what we can about the known and presumed sextants, octants and boxes used by Fred and likely to be on the flight and/or on Gardner island. This approach might rule out Gallagher's box as belonging to the Earhart flight.
The Pioneer octant was developed in 1931 and I know it was used by Lindbergh in 1933 and it is the only bubble octant discussed in Dutton, 1934 ed. The photo of Lindbergh's octant shows that it had reached its final form and is virtually indistinguishable from the later models, Mk III, A-5 and A-7. The shape of the octant determines the shape of the box and the box for the Pioneer bubble octant looks nothing like a box for a marine sextant. The boxes for other types of aircraft octants are more like a normal sextant box. I have attached three photos of the Pioneer box which is quite distinctive. The shape of this box is determined by the shape of the octant. The internal supports fit only one kind of octant. (The big screw stored in the upper right of the photo is actually put through a hole in the bottom of the box and screws into the bottom of the octant to hole it very securely for shipping.) Gatty would have recognized this box instantly.
gl
-
[
The Pioneer octant was developed in 1931 and I know it was used by Lindbergh in 1933 and it is the only bubble octant discussed in Dutton, 1934 ed. The photo of Lindbergh's octant shows that it had reached its final form and is virtually indistinguishable from the later models, Mk III, A-5 and A-7. The shape of the octant determines the shape of the box and the box for the Pioneer bubble octant looks nothing like a box for a marine sextant. The boxes for other types of aircraft octants are more like a normal sextant box. I have attached three photos of the Pioneer box which is quite distinctive. The shape of this box is determined by the shape of the octant. The internal supports fit only one kind of octant. (The big screw stored in the upper right of the photo is actually put through a hole in the bottom of the box and screws into the bottom of the octant to hole it very securely for shipping.) Gatty would have recognized this box instantly.
gl
I have attached three photos of the A-10 octant box which you can see is more like a marine sextant box. Again, you can see that the inside of the box is designed to accommodate only one type of octant.
gl
-
I have attached three photos of the A-10 octant box which you can see is more like a marine sextant box. Again, you can see that the inside of the box is designed to accommodate only one type of octant.
gl
I have attached two photos of Kollsman perisopic octant box and you can see the inside is adapted to only hold this type of instrument securely.
gl
-
Thanks, Gary, those are exactly the kinds of photos we need. Does one of them show the box used for an early 1936 Pioneer Octant? Also, do you have a similar photo of a Bosch & Lomb octant box of the sort that would have held the instrument in the photo of Harry Manning and AE you provided on the other thread (I'll provide a link for future reference when I have time)?
What I'm attempting to do is to define the sextant box that might reasonably have been on board the Electra. A good argument has been made that FN would not have rationally left it behind if he abandoned the aircraft. Obviously a sextant box could survive a few years on Gardner, as evidenced by the one reported by Gallagher, so where is the one that Fred might have left, if he had been there?
p.s. your Kollsman appears to be identical to mine.
-
gl sez: "The Pioneer octant was developed in 1931 and I know it was used by Lindbergh in 1933 and it is the only bubble octant discussed in Dutton, 1934 ed. The photo of Lindbergh's octant shows that it had reached its final form and is virtually indistinguishable from the later models, Mk III, A-5 and A-7. The shape of the octant determines the shape of the box and the box for the Pioneer bubble octant looks nothing like a box for a marine sextant. The boxes for other types of aircraft octants are more like a normal sextant box"
According to the Smithsonian site, the Pioneer octant was offered commercially in 1931, having been patented in 1929. The enclosed form had been established by other manufacturers as early as 1922(!), and there were some even earlier experiments with enclosed designs.
I ran across a description of navigation in the early trans-Pacific Clippers in which the navigator used a sextant (or octant) shooting through an open hatch. This allowed a more traditional open-frame sextant, since it didn't need to work through a near vertical window. Enclosing the navigator's space in a bubble, or even just a transparent cover over the hatch, must have been a giant step forward.
If Fred brought an "other types of aircraft octant", then it might have been kept in a box "more like a normal sextant box". I think we can narrow the variety of likely sextants he brought to just two - a Bausch & Lomb A6 of roughly 1936 vintage, and a "Pioneer, #12-36". I'd like to identify the boxes those two instruments were likely to have been kept in. I'm still looking through web pages, and I suspect Gary is too. Everyone else is encouraged to do the same. A free pizza to the first one to find a photo!
Also according to the Smithsonian web site, the "#12-36" refers to the 12th sextant accepted by the Navy in 1936, which we only assume to be the 12th one they made (probably a pretty safe assumption).
I've received no news from the Naval Observatory historian yet. I'll post news as soon as any appears.
-
Below is mentioned a Perdue source of the photo that GL posted elsewhere, which showed AE and Harry Manning holding a sextant, by the tail of the Lockheed. The sextant appears to be a Bausch & Lomb A-6 or A-8 (differences are subtle), which would be appropriate for 1937.
"Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:12:56
From: Ross Devitt
Subject: About that sextant
In the Purdue collection at the link below (hope it works) is a
picture with the description "Amelia Earhart and Captain Harry
Manning standing near the tail of Earhart's plane and examining a
piece of equipment, ca. 1937".
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=3D/=20
earhart&CISOPTR=3D271&CISOBOX=3D1&REC=3D2"
-
Below is mentioned a Perdue source of the photo that GL posted elsewhere, which showed AE and Harry Manning holding a sextant, by the tail of the Lockheed. The sextant appears to be a Bausch & Lomb A-6 or A-8 (differences are subtle), which would be appropriate for 1937.
"Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:12:56
From: Ross Devitt
Subject: About that sextant
In the Purdue collection at the link below (hope it works) is a
picture with the description "Amelia Earhart and Captain Harry
Manning standing near the tail of Earhart's plane and examining a
piece of equipment, ca. 1937".
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=3D/=20 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=3D/=20)
earhart&CISOPTR=3D271&CISOBOX=3D1&REC=3D2"
That link didn't work, try this one (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/earhart&CISOPTR=271&CISOBOX=1&REC=10).
I see where you are going with this John, excellent "thinking outside the box." ;D
Here is the link to the other photo of Manning with the Bausch & Lomb octant. (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/earhart&CISOPTR=270&CISOBOX=1&REC=7)
Here is a link to the Bausch & Lomb in its box (http://americanhistory.si.edu/collectionsl/navigation/object.cfm?recordnumber=123411).
I have attached the image of the B&L in its box. (How do I get my pizza?) The box looks like a normal sextant box, but only externally. The internal structures of every sextant box is designed to hold only one specific type of sextant in place against jolts and jars and against any kind of damage. To the uninitiated, these boxes may all look alike but to anybody who had seen a B&L in its box, the box would be recognized without any trouble. So the problem with where you were going with this John, is named Harold Gatty. Getting a B&L box by Gatty would be like trying to sneak a sunrise past a rooster. Gatty was obviously familiar with the B&L, and he examined the box found on Gardner and would have recognized a B&L box. He said it was not a box for a modern type of sextant.
An obvious tip off in the B&L box is the holder for two batteries (looks like "C" or " D" cells) and the holder for two spare bulbs between the batteries since batteries were not normally used in marine sextants but are common in octants to illuminate the bubble for night time observations. This is an obvious feature in the A-10 box photo that I posted earlier too.
gl
-
gl sez "...So the problem with where you were going with this John, is named Harold Gatty. Getting a B&L box by Gatty would be like trying to sneak a sunrise past a rooster. Gatty was obviously familiar with the B&L..."
Gary - this is useful information. I'm inclined to agree that it seems highly unlikely that Gatty wouldn't recognize a B&L box as being for a "modern" sextant. However, I don't have any background on Harold Gatty, so I don't know that it would be "obviously familiar" to him. Can you provide some support for the assumption?
btw, I'm not trying to "prove" that the box reported by Gallagher was a B&L or Pioneer. We can analyze artifacts found (or reported to have been found) on Niku, to see if they came from the last flight, or we can look at the items known to be on the flight and look to see if any of them ended up on Niku.
We know of one definite crash on Gardner that would have been expected to carry an old style marine sextant - the Norwich City. We also hypothesize a later aircraft wreck on the island that would likely have carried a much more modern style sextant in a box of obviously different style. We find a report by someone finding an old style marine sextant box, which would have been contemporaneous with the Norwich City wreck, found on a part of the island far from the mostly likely aircraft landing spot, and also far from the ship wreck. Why would a reasonable person assume the box was associated with the aircraft, and not the ship? TIGHAR is seeking that answer, but the argument that connects the box to the aircraft is a bit convoluted at present. Tracking down the NO numbers is one testable approach. Identifying the box carried on the aircraft is another, since it would be the most likely one to turn up on the island, if the aircraft landed there. So is tracking down the NO numbers on the two known instruments in Fred's posession around the time of the flight. If we find nothing to link Fred's instruments to the box found on Niku, then the most likely source for the box is not the aircraft.
-
gl sez "...So the problem with where you were going with this John, is named Harold Gatty. Getting a B&L box by Gatty would be like trying to sneak a sunrise past a rooster. Gatty was obviously familiar with the B&L..."
Gary - this is useful information. I'm inclined to agree that it seems highly unlikely that Gatty wouldn't recognize a B&L box as being for a "modern" sextant. However, I don't have any background on Harold Gatty, so I don't know that it would be "obviously familiar" to him. Can you provide some support for the assumption?
btw, I'm not trying to "prove" that the box reported by Gallagher was a B&L or Pioneer. We can analyze artifacts found (or reported to have been found) on Niku, to see if they came from the last flight, or we can look at the items known to be on the flight and look to see if any of them ended up on Niku.
We know of one definite crash on Gardner that would have been expected to carry an old style marine sextant - the Norwich City. We also hypothesize a later aircraft wreck on the island that would likely have carried a much more modern style sextant in a box of obviously different style. We find a report by someone finding an old style marine sextant box, which would have been contemporaneous with the Norwich City wreck, found on a part of the island far from the mostly likely aircraft landing spot, and also far from the ship wreck. Why would a reasonable person assume the box was associated with the aircraft, and not the ship? TIGHAR is seeking that answer, but the argument that connects the box to the aircraft is a bit convoluted at present. Tracking down the NO numbers is one testable approach. Identifying the box carried on the aircraft is another, since it would be the most likely one to turn up on the island, if the aircraft landed there. So is tracking down the NO numbers on the two known instruments in Fred's posession around the time of the flight. If we find nothing to link Fred's instruments to the box found on Niku, then the most likely source for the box is not the aircraft.
I thought everybody knew of Harold Gatty. Here is one link (http://www.historynet.com/harold-gatty-aerial-navigation-expert.htm), you can find many more on Google. ( BTW, this article had Weems' name wrong, it is Philip van Horn Weems.)
See this post too. https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,525.msg7622.html#msg7622
gl
-
Excellant links Gary. I'm convinced that Gatty recognize even subtle differences in sextant boxes of the period, possibly to the extent of recognizing a box as being likely to have belonged to Fred.
I think it still worth determining what Fred's sextant was, and its box, but the chance that it was the box reported by Gallagher would seem to be vanishingly small.
The implication is that the Niku sextant box was almost certainly not from the Earhart flight, and may not even have been from the Norwich City. This would mean that the site 7 castaways were from some 3rd source.
Comments are envited.
-
... possibly to the extent of recognizing a box as being likely to have belonged to Fred. ...
Noonan's name appears nowhere in the bones file (http://tighar.org/wiki/Bones_file).
When the doctor identified the bones (http://tighar.org/wiki/Bones) as being from a "European or half-European male," no one in the office seems to have said, "So they could be Fred Noonan's bones."
So I think it is stretching the evidence to say that Gatty could have said anything about the likelihood of the box having belonged to Fred Noonan.
According to Ron Gatty (http://tighar.org/wiki/Gatty), his father knew both Earhart and Noonan. If he said something like, "Fred would not be carrying a box like that," it didn't make it into the bones file.
-
so what it is it were looking, Bausch & Lomb A6 or Pioneer, #12-36" or both
-
richie sez: "Bausch & Lomb A6 or Pioneer, #12-36" or both"
Both need to have their boxes definitively identified.
The B&L box almost certainly looked like the one in GL's picture, in which case Gatty would have recognized it as an aircraft octant box.
The box for Pioneer #12-36 was likely to also be an easily recognized aircraft octant box, but I don't know for sure. Yet.
-
The implication is that the Niku sextant box was almost certainly not from the Earhart flight, and may not even have been from the Norwich City. This would mean that the site 7 castaways were from some 3rd source.
Comments are envited.
Since the Norwich City was a British merchant ship it probably had a British sextant.
Googling it produced this link for a replica:
http://www.brassbinnacle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=br1&Product_Code=STL-38&Category_Code=SX1
RC
-
Charles A. Lindbergh sextant
http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/a-bausch-lomb-bubble-sextant-used-by-charles-a.-1-c-i19xpqa16q
-
(http://londonsextant.localdailybargin.com/image2/Wwii-Us-Army-Airforce-Aircraft-Sextant-Type-A-8a-Bausch---Lomb-Optical-Case_170709954573.gif)
Wwii Us Army Airforce Aircraft Sextant Type A8a Bausch Lomb Optical Case
(http://londonsextant.localdailybargin.com/image2/Ww-Ii-Us-Army-Air-Force-Aircraft-Sextant-W-original-Box_320790459478.gif)
Ww Ii Us Army Air Force Aircraft Sextant W/original Box - $300.00
http://londonsextant.localdailybargin.com/catalog/army-sextant.html
-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-US-Army-Airforce-Aircraft-Sextant-type-A-8A-Bausch-Lomb-Optical-Case-/170709954573?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27bf1b300d#ht_500wt_969
even better image :)
-
Gary Lapook nice site :) http://www.freelists.org/post/navlist/Website-with-flight-navigation-resources,7
-
Richie and Gary (and anyone else joining this thread): The prevalance of WWII stuff has sort of contaminated the search for 1937-era stuff. By the start of the war, things like sextant boxes and aircraft octant boxes had become so standardized that we take the box shapes for granted. The few years before the war were not quite so standardized, and there is room for doubt about the identification of any particular pre-war box and what was stored in it. That's part of the puzzle that TIGHAR has been struggling with. If the flight had occured in 1941, then the box would be easy to identify. If the flight had occured in 1931, then the different shape boxes of that era would also have been easy to identify. The "Gallagher" box seems likely to belong to the early 1930's (or earlier) era marine vintage. This seems a bit too early for a box that might have been on the Earhart flight, but doesn't entirely rule it out. I believe we can help TIGHAR clarify what happened at the end of the Earhart flight with good analysis of what is known and what is likely. We know that aircraft octants of WWII vintage could not have been on the flight, for example. Pictures of WWII boxes are nice, and help identify what later era boxes looked like, but don't much help us learn what happened to Fred and Amelia.
-
The implication is that the Niku sextant box was almost certainly not from the Earhart flight, and may not even have been from the Norwich City. This would mean that the site 7 castaways were from some 3rd source.
Comments are envited.
Since the Norwich City was a British merchant ship it probably had a British sextant.
Googling it produced this link for a replica:
http://www.brassbinnacle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=br1&Product_Code=STL-38&Category_Code=SX1
RC
No that is not what a real sextant looks like. That is a cheap decorator not for real use, there are lots of these made in India.
gl
-
Richie and Gary (and anyone else joining this thread): The prevalance of WWII stuff has sort of contaminated the search for 1937-era stuff. By the start of the war, things like sextant boxes and aircraft octant boxes had become so standardized that we take the box shapes for granted. The few years before the war were not quite so standardized, and there is room for doubt about the identification of any particular pre-war box and what was stored in it. That's part of the puzzle that TIGHAR has been struggling with. If the flight had occured in 1941, then the box would be easy to identify. If the flight had occured in 1931, then the different shape boxes of that era would also have been easy to identify. The "Gallagher" box seems likely to belong to the early 1930's (or earlier) era marine vintage. This seems a bit too early for a box that might have been on the Earhart flight, but doesn't entirely rule it out. I believe we can help TIGHAR clarify what happened at the end of the Earhart flight with good analysis of what is known and what is likely. We know that aircraft octants of WWII vintage could not have been on the flight, for example. Pictures of WWII boxes are nice, and help identify what later era boxes looked like, but don't much help us learn what happened to Fred and Amelia.
Have you found any pictures of boxes for the Pioneer octant that look different than the photo I posted? Like I said before, the shape of the octant determines the shape of the box. Anyway, whatever the shapes of the octant boxes in that era for the Poineer and the B&L, Gatty was familiar with them all and would have identified them if the Gardner box had been for an aeronautical octant.
gl
-
(http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cgi-bin/getimage.exe?CISOROOT=/earhart&CISOPTR=656&DMSCALE=39.63012&DMWIDTH=600&DMHEIGHT=600&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=%20noonan&REC=3&DMTHUMB=1&DMROTATE=0)
i think thats a sextant by freds feet
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/earhart&CISOPTR=656&CISOBOX=1&REC=3
-
I think that's a sextant by fred's feet
The caption calls it a "valise." It looks more like a briefcase to me than any of the sextant boxes we've seen so far.
-
Much too big and wrong shape for a sextant or octant case. A valise is about right. I've got a lightweight case for charts of about those proportions, made of stiff cardboard leatherette. The top has two flaps that overlap, with two latches that hold it closed and a handle sticking up through the top for carrying like a suitcase.
A problem with simple photos of octants and sextants is their lack of scale. The picture Gary posted with Harry Manning showing Amelia a Bausch & Lomb aircraft octant gives a pretty good sense of its size.
-
http://valisegallery.org/
if u look at the picture the first versions of the suitcase were wooden boxes
-
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6079/6082839525_29afe5672f_z.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6088/6082855537_e9ba5a71db_z.jpg)
http://shoestringsplendour.wordpress.com/2011/08/
-
gl asks: "Have you found any pictures of boxes for the Pioneer octant that look different than the photo I posted?"
I haven't found many pictures of Pioneer boxes at all, and none from 1936 or older. You didn't say what year your example represents. I have found pictures of boxes for Bausch & Lomb, which look like a marine sextant box until you look inside. The internal furniture is completely different from what is needed to hold a marine sextant, as you well know. WWII aircraft octant boxes were completely different from old style marine sextant boxes - and there are lots of examples of both of those. It's the 1937 and earlier aircraft octant box photos that I've had trouble finding examples of.
-
The box carried by Harry Manning in this frame from the newsreel footage of the Electra crew disembarking from the SS Malolo in San Francisco following the Honolulu accident looks like a real clue to me. Note the wire type handle on the box. (http://www.criticalpast.com/app_old/cpdata2/65675050176/big/65675050176_001058_3.jpg)
-
gl asks: "Have you found any pictures of boxes for the Pioneer octant that look different than the photo I posted?"
I haven't found many pictures of Pioneer boxes at all, and none from 1936 or older. You didn't say what year your example represents. I have found pictures of boxes for Bausch & Lomb, which look like a marine sextant box until you look inside. The internal furniture is completely different from what is needed to hold a marine sextant, as you well know. WWII aircraft octant boxes were completely different from old style marine sextant boxes - and there are lots of examples of both of those. It's the 1937 and earlier aircraft octant box photos that I've had trouble finding examples of.
Well, keep looking but, based on the shape of the Pioneer octant, I think the shape of their boxes stayed the same from the beginning.
gl
-
if the sextant box noonan found was painted the i would imagine it was older than 1930
-
The box carried by Harry Manning in this frame from the newsreel footage of the Electra crew disembarking from the SS Malolo in San Francisco following the Honolulu accident looks like a real clue to me. Note the wire type handle on the box. (http://www.criticalpast.com/app_old/cpdata2/65675050176/big/65675050176_001058_3.jpg)
Watch this video. (http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675050176_Amelia-Earhart_cruise-ship-Matson_American-Aviatrix_pass-on-a-bridge) At 1:12 into the video Manning enters from the right side of the frame carrying what might be a B&L box. It looks a little too big for a sextant box but too small for a suitcase.
Added:
Now that I have found better photos of the B&L octant box it does not appear that the box or case being carried by Manning is a B&L octant box. See later post (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,554.msg7835.html#msg7835).
gl
-
(http://www.criticalpast.com/app_old/cpdata2/65675050176/big/65675050176_001656_3.jpg)
AE is also carrying a small case. Is the case Manning is holding the same as in the frame above?
-
(http://www.criticalpast.com/app_old/cpdata2/65675050176/big/65675050176_001656_3.jpg)
AE is also carrying a small case. Is the case Manning is holding the same as in the frame above?
AE isn't carrying a case, it is Mantz. If you stop the video at 1:11 you can see it clearly and the shape appears correct to be a box for a Pioneer octant but if you go back and stop the video at 0:43 you can see the box that Mantz is carrying is NOT an octant box.
I think the case in Manning's hand is the same as in the above frame.
How did you manage to clip stills out of the video?
Added:
Now that I have found better photos of the B&L octant box it does not appear that the box or case being carried by Manning is a B&L octant box. See later post. (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,554.msg7835.html#msg7835)
gl
-
AE isn't carrying a case, it is Mantz. If you stop the video at 1:11 you can see it clearly and the shape appears correct to be a box for a Pioneer octant.
You will have to exclude a box for the camera that Mantz was carrying in an earlier scene, I think.
Noonan and Manning were the navigators.
-
This is great stuff folks, thanks a lot. I'm on slow dial up, so I don't get to watch videos. Posting clips is a valuable addition to the search.
Can anyone tell me what date the film was made?
-
This is great stuff folks, thanks a lot. I'm on slow dial up, so I don't get to watch videos. Posting clips is a valuable addition to the search.
Can anyone tell me what date the film was made?
March 25, 1937.
gl
-
AE isn't carrying a case, it is Mantz. If you stop the video at 1:11 you can see it clearly and the shape appears correct to be a box for a Pioneer octant.
You will have to exclude a box for the camera that Mantz was carrying in an earlier scene, I think.
Noonan and Manning were the navigators.
You are right, if you go back and stop the video at 0:43 you can see the box that Mantz is carrying is NOT an octant box.
gl
-
GL: "AE isn't carrying a case, it is Mantz."
I was fooled by AE's right hand that looks like its holding the strap in this frame. These are from the frames shown below the video. Click the button to enlarge. Then, a right click on the enlarged frame, select "properties", select the URL, and post that. If you search under Noonan's name on this web site, there is another similar video that may have different views.
Rick
-
The implication is that the Niku sextant box was almost certainly not from the Earhart flight, and may not even have been from the Norwich City. This would mean that the site 7 castaways were from some 3rd source.
Comments are envited.
Since the Norwich City was a British merchant ship it probably had a British sextant.
Googling it produced this link for a replica:
http://www.brassbinnacle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=br1&Product_Code=STL-38&Category_Code=SX1
RC
No that is not what a real sextant looks like. That is a cheap decorator not for real use, there are lots of these made in India.
gl
I know its an imitation made in India, but its specifically supposed to imitate a British made, not American sextant, and Norwich City is likely to have had a British made sextant.
Unlike all the other box pictures, this box is 6 sided and no cheap imitator would bother making a 6 sided box if the original was a simple 4 sided box. I have found several imitations of British sextants of various manufacturers in 6 sided boxes, which suggests that some British sextants came in 6 sided boxes.
That doesn’t show that all British sextants were in 6 sided boxes, but since we haven’t found any 6 sided American boxes, a 6 sided box would likely have come from the Norwich City.
RC
-
The implication is that the Niku sextant box was almost certainly not from the Earhart flight, and may not even have been from the Norwich City. This would mean that the site 7 castaways were from some 3rd source.
Comments are envited.
Since the Norwich City was a British merchant ship it probably had a British sextant.
Googling it produced this link for a replica:
http://www.brassbinnacle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=br1&Product_Code=STL-38&Category_Code=SX1
RC
No that is not what a real sextant looks like. That is a cheap decorator not for real use, there are lots of these made in India.
gl
I know its an imitation made in India, but its specifically supposed to imitate a British made, not American sextant, and Norwich City is likely to have had a British made sextant.
Unlike all the other box pictures, this box is 6 sided and no cheap imitator would bother making a 6 sided box if the original was a simple 4 sided box. I have found several imitations of British sextants of various manufacturers in 6 sided boxes, which suggests that some British sextants came in 6 sided boxes.
That doesn’t show that all British sextants were in 6 sided boxes, but since we haven’t found any 6 sided American boxes, a 6 sided box would likely have come from the Norwich City.
RC
I you go to Ebay and search "sextants" you will find many real sextants and many of these fakes. The type of boxes you describe were mainly for very old sextants, early 19th century but a few in the 20th and some for American sextants so the square box described at Gardner does not eliminate the possibility that it was a British sextant, possibly from the Norwich City. Many of the fakes come in these boxes because they look "nautically" and helps to get people to by this junk.
gl
gl
-
Gary and all others
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
-
Below is mentioned a Perdue source of the photo that GL posted elsewhere, which showed AE and Harry Manning holding a sextant, by the tail of the Lockheed. The sextant appears to be a Bausch & Lomb A-6 or A-8 (differences are subtle), which would be appropriate for 1937.
"Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:12:56
From: Ross Devitt
Subject: About that sextant
In the Purdue collection at the link below (hope it works) is a
picture with the description "Amelia Earhart and Captain Harry
Manning standing near the tail of Earhart's plane and examining a
piece of equipment, ca. 1937".
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=3D/=20 (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=3D/=20)
earhart&CISOPTR=3D271&CISOBOX=3D1&REC=3D2"
That link didn't work, try this one (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/earhart&CISOPTR=271&CISOBOX=1&REC=10).
I see where you are going with this John, excellent "thinking outside the box." ;D
Here is the link to the other photo of Manning with the Bausch & Lomb octant. (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/earhart&CISOPTR=270&CISOBOX=1&REC=7)
Here is a link to the Bausch & Lomb in its box (http://americanhistory.si.edu/collectionsl/navigation/object.cfm?recordnumber=123411).
I have attached the image of the B&L in its box. (How do I get my pizza?) The box looks like a normal sextant box, but only externally. The internal structures of every sextant box is designed to hold only one specific type of sextant in place against jolts and jars and against any kind of damage. To the uninitiated, these boxes may all look alike but to anybody who had seen a B&L in its box, the box would be recognized without any trouble. So the problem with where you were going with this John, is named Harold Gatty. Getting a B&L box by Gatty would be like trying to sneak a sunrise past a rooster. Gatty was obviously familiar with the B&L, and he examined the box found on Gardner and would have recognized a B&L box. He said it was not a box for a modern type of sextant.
An obvious tip off in the B&L box is the holder for two batteries (looks like "C" or " D" cells) and the holder for two spare bulbs between the batteries since batteries were not normally used in marine sextants but are common in octants to illuminate the bubble for night time observations. This is an obvious feature in the A-10 box photo that I posted earlier too.
gl
There was nothing wrong with the Bausch & Lomb octant and it was used by the U.S. Air Corps until the end of WW II. It was such a good instrument that an identical copy was made by the Japanese and also used by their flight navigators through the end of WW II! Noonan just had a personal preference for the Pioneer octant that he was used to using when flying for Pan Am and when teaching navigation for Pan Am. The B&L was originally developed by the National Bureau of Standards and was patented in 1929 and then manufactured by Bausch & Lomb. There is one of the Japanese exact copies of the B&L for sale right now on Ebay and the photos available there are the best I have seen of the B&L and its type of box. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-WW-II-Sextant-400665-/200627936822?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb65b5e36)
I have attached these photos.
Here is a link to an actual B&L so that you can compare (http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/navigation/object.cfm?recordnumber=123454).
I have attached these photos.
-
I have attached these photos.
Attached is one more photo of the Japanese B&L octant box.
gl
-
I am attaching 4 photos of the box for the A-8 Bausch & Lomb octant. You can see that it is shaped more like the Pioneer octant box in that it is tall and not flat like the boxes marine sextants. The same is true of the box for the Japanese version of this instrument. There is no way that Gatty could have confused either of the boxes for a marine sextant box. It is also unlikely that anybody who was familiar with only marine sextants would have identified either a Pioneer or a B&L (or a Japanese version of the B&L) octant box as a marine sextant box. As i said before, the shape of the octant determines the shape of the box.
gl
-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Dalton-Aircraft-Navigational-Computer-Mark-VII-Bastian-Bros-Co-NR-/300645129024?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45ffd89b40#ht_500wt_1202
just thought i would post this :)
-
http://usaaf.forumactif.com/t793-navigation-aerienne
-
http://usaaf.forumactif.com/t793-navigation-aerienne (http://usaaf.forumactif.com/t793-navigation-aerienne)
I wonder if the box was for this Hagner celestial computer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWa__YRiVQo)? Notice, the plane in the background is a Lockheed Electra regestration NC140 something. The video shows it being used inside the Electra.
gl
-
Just an update that some folks may find of interest. Member Erik Davis has been digging through boxes of Naval Observatory correspondance at the National Archives recently, and has been finding documents that refer to lots of sextants and octants, including documents that rightfully ought to have been filed in Air Force records. He has not yet found anything that relates to Harry Manning or Fred Noonan's instruments, nor anything that relates to the Sextant box found on Gardner, but the kinds of documents he has found so far suggest that he is looking in the right area. It's a daunting task, and my hat's off to him for pursuing it.
There are only a few things we know, to help guide his search:
Harry Manning gave an aircraft octant to Fred Noonan before the flight. It was Bu.Aero. S/N 12-36. That's a number we're hoping to find mentioned in the records, which might then tell us specifically what the make and model were, and possibly a N.O. number. Some of the records are of repairs done, receipts for instruments sent or received, etc, including calibrations.
A sextant box was found on Gardner, and was reportedly marked with the numbers 3500, and 1542.
It seems highly unlikely that Manning's octant box would have been the same one found on Gardner. If Erik is successful in his search, we may be able to definitively prove or disprove a connection. We may also discover what ship or person owned the 3500/1542 sextant box.
-
Hello all. I was at the National Archives in San Bruno a few days ago and going through records related to the 1937 search for AE. Here are a couple of despatches from the 12th Naval District in San Francisco that show that AE had requested and had been loaned the use of a Navy octant for her flight from Oakland to Hawaii. I'm wondering if she kept that octant and subsequently kept it for her trip in June/July 1937 And would the same octant have then been the one located by the British in 1940 at the castaway's site (the 7 site?)
Have you seen this info before?
Sorry the copy is not great. Hope you can see it.
Kurt
-
Hello all. I was at the National Archives in San Bruno a few days ago and going through records related to the 1937 search for AE. Here are a couple of despatches from the 12th Naval District in San Francisco that show that AE had requested and had been loaned the use of a Navy octant for her flight from Oakland to Hawaii. ...
Have you seen this info before?
Yes. These telegrams were discussed in an earlier version of the Forum in 2000. By using the handy search function (http://tighar.org/news/help/82-how-do-i-search-tigharorg) linked to every page of this Forum, I asked Google to search for "octant being shipped." (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22octant+being+shipped%22&sitesearch=tighar.org) Three search results were returned. The first and third show discussions about the telegram. The second is a link to Randy Jacobson's magnificent collection of naval traffic about the two around-the-world attempts.
(http://content.screencast.com/users/moleski/folders/Jing/media/01fd90e9-3c33-42fd-96ef-8451742ef2fb/2016-11-12_0525.png)
I'm wondering if she kept that octant and subsequently kept it for her trip in June/July 1937
Using the same handy search function, I searched for "noonan manning sextant," because I have a dim recollection that Manning signed an instrument over to Noonan for use on the second attempt. The very first search result led to a thread on this Forum: "What was Fred's Sextant and its box?" (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php?topic=554.0) The first paragraph of the first post in that thread has a link to the receipt for this transaction:
(https://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/a/ac/Noonan_Octant_Receipt.jpg)
And would the same octant have then been the one located by the British in 1940 at the castaway's site (the 7 site?)
That's a great question! We have been trying to answer it for lo! these many years.
- "Can you add to the list of sextant numbers?" (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,183.0.html) is a 26-page thread on this forum.
- "Sextant box found on Nikumaroro" (https://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro) in the Ameliapedia.
-
Thanks Marty. Guess I got a little excited when I saw the word 'octant' in the records.
-
Thanks Marty. Guess I got a little excited when I saw the word 'octant' in the records.
Understood.
I don't actually remember how we sorted it all out.
But the trusty search function (https://tighar.org/info/) leads me to this pretty excellent paragraph (https://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro#Sextants.2C_Octants.2C_Quadrants):
P. V. H. Weems, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._V._H._Weems) Air Navigation, 1938, second edition, p. 301:
"Since an arc of 45 degrees is one-eighth of a circle, instruments of this general type, having a maximum angle of 45 degrees between the two reflectors, are known as octants. Instruments having an arc or limb of 60 degrees, or one-sixth of a circle, for measuring the angle between reflectors are called sextants, and those having arcs of 90 degrees, or one-quarter of a circle are called quadrants. Either octants or sextants are suitable for aerial use, but the quadrant is too bulky. For a great many years practically all instruments used by marine navigators for measuring altitudes have been sextants, and the term sextant has become so generally used that it is now applied to all instruments for measuring altitudes of heavenly bodies whether they are actually quadrants, sextants, or octants."
Good arguments can be made either way. The best I can think of against the identifcation of the Niku box as the Manning/Navy box is this: although the word "sextant" could be used for "quadrants, sextants, or octants," it does not logically follow that the word "octant" could be used to stand for "sextant." If the naval telegrams are correct that the instrument loaned to Manning was an octant, and if the investigation in Fiji was correct that the box found on Niku was definitely for a sextant, then it follows that the box found on Niku cannot have housed the instrument on loan to Noonan.
But Noonan may have both borrowed an octant and taken his own sextant. The Niku box does not have to be the Manning/Navy box in order to be from the fatal flight.
The folks in Fiji who examined the box (https://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro#Notes_from_the_bones_file) reported that it had two numbers on it: "3500 (stencilled) and 1542." We have found quite a large number of boxes with two four-digit numbers on them. Brandis instruments that were collimated by the Navy had a maker's serial number and a Naval Observatory number on them.
If you look on the table of sextant numbers, (https://tighar.org/wiki/Sextant_box_found_on_Nikumaroro#Sextant_Box_Numbers:_Suggestive_Patterns) there is this little subset:
Brandis:Naval Observatory
3444:1461
3500:1542 -- numbers on box found on Niku
3483:1567
3987:1584
3511:1585
Nothing we have found so far disqualifies the box on Niku from having come from Brandis via the Navy. It is an interesting coincidence. It does not seem to me to be entirely inconceivable that the Niku box might have been the Manning/Navy box.
-
The Smithsonian's "Time and Navigation" exhibition broke loose a new (to me) photograph of Fred Noonan ostensibly navigating aboard the Pan American/Sikorsky S-42, "China Clipper," presumably in 1935. ON the left-hand side, you will see what looks to me like an aviation octant. Behind the octant is a box sitting in a carefully designed enclosure designed to prevent the box from sliding or banging around. I am guessing that this is an authentic pre-war octant box, and the design of the box is probably diagnostic for the model of octant. If I were guessing, i would guess Pioneer.
I don't recognize the map, but possibly it is a large scale chart of American Samoa.