TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Artifact Analysis => Topic started by: JNev on June 06, 2011, 09:48:34 AM
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... A considerable amount of time and money has been spent on discoveries, "evidence", and theories only to find that they lead to a dead end. ...
One of my all-time favorites is the navigator's bookcase. (http://tighar.org/wiki/2-1) TIGHAR found the bookcase during Niku I (http://tighar.org/wiki/Niku_I) in 1989, presumed that it was from the Electra, then, through some really excellent historical research, demonstrated that it was not from the Electra.
Much agreed - this is one of the greatest things about TIGHAR to me - having the guts to pursue the truth and call a dead-end for what it is and never allowing a presumption to stand beyond being an element of discovery in the investigation of a theory, unless proven. It is not a "failure" when the truth is sought, found and told; every piece of evidence will not come to support the case - but every piece will be thoroughly investigated and used to help tell the truth about what can be discovered - and those that do support will be priceless. ALL will help tell the Niku story in the end, whatever it is - AE or not.
The bookcase is a prime example of the principle, and TIGHAR is nothing if not principled - thanks, Marty.
LTM -
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Good points, Jeff. Plus, even if the Niku theory ended up not being true (I hope it is), all the research and articles on the evidence, interviews, communication failures, history, etc. nevertheless make it a noble endeavor. So much more background and history is available having gone through the search. Ultimately my hope is that the plane or parts of it is definitively found.
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the navigators book case is an odd example if you read the wiki.
Ric says that this particular book case was a modified PBY part used in early model B24's (B24C and B24D) while the plane that crashed and was not recovered on canton was a B24J. A large difference between the two model ranges as the early models were 10" shorter and had no nose gun. the case must have come from a different wreck
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the case must have come from a different wreck
"Must have" is like "would have" - a guess masquerading as a fact. I agree that, based on our understanding of the evolution of the Consolidated Model 32, there shouldn't have been a PBY bookcase aboard a B-24J but I can't find a B-24C or D that was lost anywhere in the region.
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the case must have come from a different wreck
"Must have" is like "would have" - a guess masquerading as a fact. I agree that, based on our understanding of the evolution of the Consolidated Model 32, there shouldn't have been a PBY bookcase aboard a B-24J but I can't find a B-24C or D that was lost anywhere in the region.
no worse than "most likely" when it goes against the facts that you have.
the model J was a very different aircraft than the model C/D. when you have a part number that came on a specific model aircraft you can't point to the nearest plane that you already KNOW came with a different part number. I have no way to tell for sure but the first 100 or so b24's were converted to model C and D's. I'm guessing these were the only planes that actually had the pby shelf.
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... not sure the bookcase means much unless it can be tied to the Electra somehow - which so far I believe Ric is saying has not been done.
I think it goes much farther than that. I don't think TIGHAR hopes for any tie between the Electra and the navigator's bookcase.
The part number, holes, and fittings are a perfect match for a B-24.
These may well have been the first questions I asked on the old Forum: "Did TIGHAR find such a box? If so, how was it disqualified?" I've placed Ric's full answer in the Ameliapedia article on the Navigator's Bookcase. (http://tighar.org/wiki/2-1#A_TIGHAR_Campfire_Tale)
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At least one PBY (http://tighar.org/wiki/USCG_LORAN_Station) DID visit Gardner - not sure how it can be ruled out as a qualified source for the bookcase.
PBYs from Canton regularly resupplied the Coasties with perishables. I have manifests for many of the flights. I can tell you how many pounds of ham, tins of mayo, and cases of beer they brought on any given flight. There is no record of any PBY being damaged at Gardner and the bookcase in question has the specific features and mounting holes for a B-24.
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the case must have come from a different wreck
"Must have" is like "would have" - a guess masquerading as a fact. I agree that, based on our understanding of the evolution of the Consolidated Model 32, there shouldn't have been a PBY bookcase aboard a B-24J but I can't find a B-24C or D that was lost anywhere in the region.
no worse than "most likely" when it goes against the facts that you have.
the model J was a very different aircraft than the model C/D. when you have a part number that came on a specific model aircraft you can't point to the nearest plane that you already KNOW came with a different part number. I have no way to tell for sure but the first 100 or so b24's were converted to model C and D's. I'm guessing these were the only planes that actually had the pby shelf.
At least one PBY (http://tighar.org/wiki/USCG_LORAN_Station) DID visit Gardner - not sure how it can be ruled out as a qualified source for the bookcase. Probably not likely, but who knows? We seem to assume a 'wreck' had to be the source, but maybe the PBY crew yanked the thing out for some reason of use known only to them and it got left behind. 'Out there' a bit, but stranger things have happened - and point is that could be a 'source' for the bookcase.
Then again, not sure the bookcase means much unless it can be tied to the Electra somehow - which so far I believe Ric is saying have not done.
LTM -
Jeff the comment about the bookcase really has nothing to do with the search for Amelia. I was merely pointing out a big stretch of facts by Ric. I see Ric and Marty pointing out the dangers of guessing all the time. I just found it irresistible to point out an obvious stretch when Ric had already stated the facts that did not match his guess at where it came from.
Sorry for the distraction.
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I was merely pointing out a big stretch of facts by Ric. I see Ric and Marty pointing out the dangers of guessing all the time. I just found it irresistible to point out an obvious stretch when Ric had already stated the facts that did not match his guess at where it came from.
It came from somewhere. Perhaps you'd care to offer a suggestion. No fair saying, "A B-24D." What B-24D? The losses on the South Central Pacific are well documented (people tended to pay attention when airplanes went missing).
There was a PB4Y-1 (Navy B-24) of VB 106, BuNo 32102, that disappeared en route from Canton to Funafuti on 20 October 1943. Might have had the right bookcase aboard but how do we get it to
Gardner?
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It came from somewhere. Perhaps you'd care to offer a suggestion. No fair saying, "A B-24D." What B-24D? The losses on the South Central Pacific are well documented (people tended to pay attention when airplanes went missing).
There was a PB4Y-1 (Navy B-24) of VB 106, BuNo 32102, that disappeared en route from Canton to Funafuti on 20 October 1943. Might have had the right bookcase aboard but how do we get it to
Gardner?
I do not need a loss list to know that a part that was ONLY used on B24C/D and PB4Y-1's would not be found on a B24J. it just makes no sense. however the PB4Y-1 loss that you mention IS very interesting. Especially considering the amount of B24 parts found on Niku and the fact that it's flight path would have passed directly over Niku. Is it not just as reasonable to theorize a similar fate for the PB4Y-1 as we are for Amelia?? I know it is much more likely that this plane crashed on or near niku than a part being salvaged from a B24J that was never on it.
here is the excerpt from the bookcase link:
Early examples of the Consolidated Model 32 (B-24C and some B-24D/PB4Y-1 aircraft, a total of 1,653 machines) were equipped with PBY bookcases. Later, Consolidated designed a special bookcase for the Liberator which carried a 32F... part number.
"The best candidate might be the B-24J that crashed on the reef at Canton in 1944 but was not salvaged. We've long suspected that many of the B-24 parts we've found on Niku, such as the navigator's bookcase that was found a few meters from where we later found 2-2-V-1, are pieces of that wreck that washed ashore at Canton
here is a google map showing the relationship between the PB4Y-1's flight path and Niku.
(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1172/lostb24.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/146/lostb24.jpg/)
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I do not need a loss list to know that a part that was ONLY used on B24C/D and PB4Y-1's would not be found on a B24J. It just makes no sense. However the PB4Y-1 loss that you mention IS very interesting. Especially considering the amount of B24 parts found on Niku and the fact that its flight path would have passed directly over Niku. Is it not just as reasonable to theorize a similar fate for the PB4Y-1 as we are for Amelia? I know it is much more likely that this plane crashed on or near Niku than a part being salvaged from a B24J that was never on it.
You can't mount the box in a PB4Y using mounting holes spaced properly for a B24 and vice-versa.
"The Grail" (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/1990Vol_6/TheGrail.pdf) shows how the bookcase did not have the proper mounting holes for installation in a PBY.
When you are making up theories to account for the facts, you must first make sure that you've got all the facts that need to be accounted for. To put it another way, the holes in the box shoot holes in your PBY theory.
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You can't mount the box in a PB4Y using mounting holes spaced properly for a B24 and vice-versa.
"The Grail" (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/1990Vol_6/TheGrail.pdf) shows how the bookcase did not have the proper mounting holes for installation in a PBY.
When you are making up theories to account for the facts, you must first make sure that you've got all the facts that need to be
accounted for. To put it another way, the holes in the box shoot holes in your PBY theory.
Martin, you are getting confused by model numbers. the PB4Y-1 is the Navy designation for a B24 bomber (similar to a C/D model) a PBY is a consolidated Flying boat that just so happened to have it's bookcase modified for use in early B24's.
all of the navy PB4Y-1's were originally ordered for the airforce and transferred to the navy when built. the particular PB4y-1 that ric mentioned was built as an air force B24D model.
"Consolidated B-24D-110-CO Liberator 40882 to USN as PB4Y-1 32102"
from here: http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b24_29.html (http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b24_29.html)
that means that the air force transferred B24 serial #40882 to the navy as serial #32102
this is what the pb4y-1 would have looked like (no distinctive nose ball turret in this model)
(http://www.hyperscale.com/features/2000/images/images_5/liberatorlg_7.JPG)
this is a PBY-1:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/8/89/20110212012128!PBY-1_VP-12_1937.jpg)
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Martin, you are getting confused by model numbers. The PB4Y-1 is the Navy designation for a B24 bomber (similar to a C/D model) a PBY is a consolidated Flying boat that just so happened to have its bookcase modified for use in early B24s.
All of the navy PB4Y-1s were originally ordered for the airforce and transferred to the navy when built. The particular PB4Y-1 that Ric mentioned was built as an air force B24D model.
I see that I was wrong. Thanks for the clarification and the pictures. Most helpful! I've expanded the article on artifact 2-1. (http://tighar.org/wiki/2-1)
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Martin, you are getting confused by model numbers. The PB4Y-1 is the Navy designation for a B24 bomber (similar to a C/D model) a PBY is a consolidated Flying boat that just so happened to have its bookcase modified for use in early B24s.
All of the navy PB4Y-1s were originally ordered for the airforce and transferred to the navy when built. The particular PB4Y-1 that Ric mentioned was built as an air force B24D model.
I see that I was wrong. Thanks for the clarification and the pictures. Most helpful! I've expanded the article on artifact 2-1. (http://tighar.org/wiki/2-1)
I fully understand the mistake. the navy designation really can throw wrench into this converstation if you don't have a firm grasp on WWII aircraft. I read in one of the write up's that Ric found a part # that they could directly trace to the framework of a PB4Y-1 as well. it really makes me wonder if the native tales of a plane on the island are from the PB4Y-1. makes me wonder if the wheel that was seen/found would better match a B24 as well.
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... the PB4Y-1 loss that you mention IS very interesting. Especially considering the amount of B24 parts found on Niku and the fact that its flight path would have passed directly over Niku. Is it not just as reasonable to theorize a similar fate for the PB4Y-1 as we are for Amelia? I know it is much more likely that this plane crashed on or near Niku than a part being salvaged from a B24J that was never on it.
OK. That makes sense now.
(http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/f/f5/Kanton-to-funafuti.png)
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I do not need a loss list to know that a part that was ONLY used on B24C/D and PB4Y-1's would not be found on a B24J.
That's true, but you don't know that part 28F4023 was ONLY used on B-24C/D. All you know is what I wrote and all I know is what it says in the Interchangeable Parts List. What happened on the factory floor and in the field often differed from the manual.
However the PB4Y-1 loss that you mention IS very interesting. Especially considering the amount of B24 parts found on Niku and the fact that it's flight path would have passed directly over Niku. Is it not just as reasonable to theorize a similar fate for the PB4Y-1 as we are for Amelia??
You tell me. In 1937 Niku was uninhabited. In 1943 there was an active colony of about 100 people on the island who were very much aware that a war was going on and were in touch with the District Officer on Canton. The same month the PB4Y1 disappeared a U.S. Coast Guard PBY landed at Niku with a team to survey the best location for a Loran station. The engineers arrived in July 1944 and the Loran station was there until May of 1946.
I know it is much more likely that this plane crashed on or near niku than a part being salvaged from a B24J that was never on it.
You know a lot more than I do.
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I've done some more digging.
According to the Parts List not all B-24Ds/PB4Y1s had the PBY bookcase (Part No. 28F2043). The last aircraft was Consolidated Ser. No. 1559 which was AAF Ser. No. 42-40482. The airplane lost somewhere between Canton and Funafuti was 42-40882. It should not have had the 28F4023 PBY bookcase installed.
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I've done some more digging.
According to the Parts List not all B-24Ds/PB4Y1s had the PBY bookcase (Part No. 28F2043). The last aircraft was Consolidated Ser. No. 1559 which was AAF Ser. No. 42-40482. The airplane lost somewhere between Canton and Funafuti was 42-40882. It should not have had the 28F4023 PBY bookcase installed.
nice detective work. Is my memory correct that you found some sort of structure that you tied directly to a PB4Y-1??? if so that would significantly narrow down the search for the plane.
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I've done some more digging.
According to the Parts List not all B-24Ds/PB4Y1s had the PBY bookcase (Part No. 28F2043). The last aircraft was Consolidated Ser. No. 1559 which was AAF Ser. No. 42-40482. The airplane lost somewhere between Canton and Funafuti was 42-40882. It should not have had the 28F4023 PBY bookcase installed.
nice detective work. Is my memory correct that you found some sort of structure that you tied directly to a PB4Y-1??? if so that would significantly narrow down the search for the plane.
Niku IIII found an stainless steel exhaust manifold (http://tighar.org/wiki/Niku_IIII_%282001%29#Results) from a B-24 in the lagoon.
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as a note on the lost between canton and funi, the tighar page with aircraft losses in the area states that craft went down 300 miles south west of canton and lost all crew. anyone know how close that is to niku?
I just went and looked it up, kanton is ~280 miles from niku which would put the wreckage at least close enough to possibly wash up on shore.
obviously Ric's homework on the bookcase still precludes it from being on this particular plane, but still gives us ANOTHER B24 from which parts could come from.
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marty, the link to aircraft losses on the 2-1 page you posted a link to mentions another Pb4y-1 that went down in november. this is aircraft # 32123. the ASN lists it as having ditched near funi. the tighar page lists it as having gone down immediately after takeoff on canton but with a footnote that it doesn't seem right due to the 6 days at sea before rescue. I think the ASN article clears up what happened to this plane. took off from Kanton, ditched in the sea near Funi.
tighar link:
http://tighar.org/wiki/Aircraft_lost_in_the_vicinity_of_Nikumaroro
asn link:
http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=81085
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It's also worth remembering that the B-24J had a huge production run, over 6,000 built depending on how you count variants and subvariants. It was also being built simultaneously by 5 different factories. You can virtually guarantee there were differences in the details between all 6,000+ of these aircraft and it wouldn't be at all surprising if navigator bookcases (perhaps left over after C/D production finished) were included in some of these airframes. Minor details like these are often left out of the production records, especially in the frenetic environment of World War II. Can anyone prove it happened? Maybe not, but it is plausible.
I work on an air vehicle production program and we often find unexpected differences in each lot because the manufacturer or a subcontractor decided something could be made cheaper or better or to replace obsolescent parts and still meet the overall performance specs. Unfortunately, sometimes they turn out to be wrong!
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Fascinating string... (and I am wholly uncertain as to how my first post somehow wound up being at the 'head of the class' here - I didn't originate it).
I split the topic to make it easier for people to find this particular thread.
The encyclopedic knowledge of B-24 variants and PB4Y1s is worth the read alone, never mind the bookcase. Mr. Weeks' knowledge of these warbirds is humbling, to say the least.
Yes. I have to go back over the list on the wiki to correct my mistakes and double-check some information from Aircraft Archaeology. (http://www.aircraftarchaeology.com/)
In any 'case', ...
:P
... it appears to be long-foregone that the bookcase did not likely come from the Electra - unless the B-24 installation pre-dated the Electra AND a bookcase was salvaged from such a bomber and 'match-drilled' via existing holes to the Electra's interior structure in some fashion as a 'make do' item, before the world trip. That sort of field mod is not unheard of in my experience, but without stronger evidence there is no evident tie to the Electra.
But not a waste - ANY aircraft artifact and story is of course of interest to us TIGHAR folk.
When this thread started, I thought TIGHAR had knockdown proof that the case could not have come from the Electra. The match between the bookcase holes and the B24/PB4Y airframe certainly seems conclusive. The only problem is finding a plausible pathway for the box to arrive on Niku by 1989. The argument isn't as airtight as I thought it was.
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marty, the link to aircraft losses on the 2-1 page you posted a link to mentions another Pb4y-1 that went down in november. this is aircraft # 32123. the ASN lists it as having ditched near funi. the tighar page lists it as having gone down immediately after takeoff on canton but with a footnote that it doesn't seem right due to the 6 days at sea before rescue. I think the ASN article clears up what happened to this plane. took off from Kanton, ditched in the sea near Funi.
I couldn't find the "takeoff from Kanton," but I do see "ditched near Funi." I've revised the entry in the wiki table (http://tighar.org/wiki/Aircraft_lost_in_the_vicinity_of_Nikumaroro).
The ASN link (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=81085) leads to JoeBaugher.com, (http://www.joebaugher.com/navy_serials/thirdseries4.html) which says that the PB4Y-1 was an "ex-USAAF B-24D 42-40950."
Baugher also lists 32102 as "ex USAAF B-24D 42-40882." Aviation Archaeology (http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/USN/PB4Y.htm) lists that as going down "400 mi SW of Canton," but I haven't found the source for that remark. Did they find wreckage there? Get a distress signal that located the plane there? Make a guess based on known time in the air?
Ric says that the parts list (http://tighar.org/wiki/2-1) excludes this airframe from carrying the bookcase--at least in principle.
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Fascinating string... (and I am wholly uncertain as to how my first post somehow wound up being at the 'head of the class' here - I didn't originate it).
The encyclopedic knowledge of B-24 variants and PB4Y1s is worth the read alone, never mind the bookcase. Mr. Weeks' knowledge of these warbirds is humbling, to say the least.
In any 'case', it appears to be long-foregone that the bookcase did not likely come from the Electra - unless the B-24 installation pre-dated the Electra AND a bookcase was salvaged from such a bomber and 'match-drilled' via existing holes to the Electra's interior structure in some fashion as a 'make do' item, before the world trip. That sort of field mod is not unheard of in my experience, but without stronger evidence there is no evident tie to the Electra.
But not a waste - ANY aircraft artifact and story is of course of interest to us TIGHAR folk.
LTM -
Jeffery, I would hardly call my knowledge on this aircraft humbling! I know some basic facts about the production runs and their variants. I do not have access to the technical documentation that Ric has. Pretty much Everything I've come up with is a "reasonable assumption" that Ric has backed up or disproved for me (Thanks Ric!)
I am an admirer of WWII aircraft more than anything else. I build "Hot Rods" for a hobby and the production legacy of almost every WWII aircraft plays out just like a hot rodder would build them. Constant improvements
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it appears to be long-foregone that the bookcase did not likely come from the Electra - unless the B-24 installation pre-dated the Electra AND a bookcase was salvaged from such a bomber and 'match-drilled' via existing holes to the Electra's interior structure in some fashion as a 'make do' item, before the world trip. That sort of field mod is not unheard of in my experience, but without stronger evidence there is no evident tie to the Electra.
Except the photograph. (see http://tighar.org/wiki/2-1). I'm not convinced the bookcase was from the Electra, but the photo is at least some arguable connection to it.
"A photo of Earhart and Noonan standing before the open cabin door in Darwin, Australia shows a shadowy object on the cabin floor that COULD be the bookcase. It’s the right size, the right shape, but it just isn’t clear enough to be sure. We built a full-scale model of an intact case and photographed it on the floor of a Lockheed 10, duplicating the angle of the Darwin photo. Yup, looks right. We built a scaled-down model of the interior of the cabin and put a scaled down bookcase under the scaled-down navigator’s table."
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I couldn't find the "takeoff from Kanton," but I do see "ditched near Funi." I've revised the entry in the wiki table.
When this thread started, I thought TIGHAR had knockdown proof that the case could not have come from the Electra. The match between the bookcase holes and the B24/PB4Y airframe certainly seems conclusive. The only problem is finding a plausible pathway for the box to arrive on Niku by 1989. The argument isn't as airtight as I thought it was.
The takeoff from Kanton was listed on the Tighar Wiki. read something like:
crash on takeoff from canton, rescued 6 days later.
then the footnote read something to the effect of:
rescue time seems long considering crashed after takeoff
I believe the argument against the box being on the electra to be airtight. As to which B24 it came from, that we may never know for sure. the two earlier PB4Y-1's that we discussed having crashed in the vicinity (vicinity being within several hundred miles) seem to have been reasonably ruled out.
Who knows how far away something like that could have come from?? say you are a native who's prize possession is a set of books/maps/charts and you are being relocated after the war. the Island you are on has an airport with several wrecked B-24's bulldozed off into the corner and you go over them looking for something usable to keep your books safe during the relocation.....
might never know where it originated given a scenario like that. although other bits found on the island with partial serial numbers and the stainless exhaust seem to give some possibility of a "local" crash.
does anyone have a link to a comprehensive list of WWII aircraft losses that includes the B24 and PB4Y-1?? When Tighar goes back looking for the electra down deep I think it might be a good idea to also have a likely identity for a lost b24 that could show up on the viewfinder.....
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The takeoff from Kanton was listed on the Tighar Wiki. read something like:
crash on takeoff from canton, rescued 6 days later.
then the footnote read something to the effect of:
rescue time seems long considering crashed after takeoff
I think that was Pat Gaston's way of explaining that this was not the plane that crashed on takeoff from Kanton. Since we now have better sources than Pat had in 2004, I've eliminated the phrase that suggested that this might have been the Kanton crash.
... does anyone have a link to a comprehensive list of WWII aircraft losses that includes the B24 and PB4Y-1?? When Tighar goes back looking for the electra down deep I think it might be a good idea to also have a likely identity for a lost b24 that could show up on the viewfinder.....
The references for the wiki article (http://tighar.org/wiki/Aircraft_lost_in_the_vicinity_of_Nikumaroro) show the sources we've used so far. I've got some more information from Aviation Archaeology (http://www.aviationarchaeology.com) that I have not cross-checked with our current list nor with the Aviation Archaeology website.
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The takeoff from Kanton was listed on the Tighar Wiki. read something like:
crash on takeoff from canton, rescued 6 days later.
then the footnote read something to the effect of:
rescue time seems long considering crashed after takeoff
I think that was Pat Gaston's way of explaining that this was not the plane that crashed on takeoff from Kanton. Since we now have better sources than Pat had in 2004, I've eliminated the phrase that suggested that this might have been the Kanton crash.
... does anyone have a link to a comprehensive list of WWII aircraft losses that includes the B24 and PB4Y-1?? When Tighar goes back looking for the electra down deep I think it might be a good idea to also have a likely identity for a lost b24 that could show up on the viewfinder.....
The references for the wiki article (http://tighar.org/wiki/Aircraft_lost_in_the_vicinity_of_Nikumaroro) show the sources we've used so far. I've got some more information from Aviation Archaeology (http://www.aviationarchaeology.com) that I have not cross-checked with our current list nor with the Aviation Archaeology website.
ok, I read it as the plane took off from kanton so there is no reason it should have taken 6 days for the rescue.....
have to look into some of them when I get time.