TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => The Islands: Expeditions, Facts, Castaway, Finds and Environs => Topic started by: Chris Johnson on March 06, 2011, 05:18:01 AM

Title: Next Expedition
Post by: Chris Johnson on March 06, 2011, 05:18:01 AM
Just been watching a TV show about sea birds in the Western Island of Scotland.  In it they were looking a Puffins which nest in burrows in the ground. To view the chicks they used 'pencil' cameras down the hole, these being unobtrusive and flexible.

If TIGHAR is still interested in finding bones at or near the Seven Site and if Ric dosn't want to loose a finger or two have TIGHAR considered this technology?

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Ric Gillespie on March 06, 2011, 07:02:01 AM
Yes, we've considered using pencil cameras but, as it turns out, there is really no need for them. We were able to check out all of the coconut crab hidey-holes we could find (primarily in the hollow trunks of buka trees) with a good light, a small rake, and somebody dumb enough to crawl in (usually me).
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Tom Swearengen on March 06, 2011, 08:11:52 AM
So---where does TIGHAR go from here??
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on March 06, 2011, 08:56:04 AM
Quote from: Tom Swearengen on March 06, 2011, 08:11:52 AM
So---where does TIGHAR go from here??

Niku 7. (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/niku7.html)

You can tell that it is going to be different from all the rest.  Roman numerals have been abandoned and we've moved up to Arabic numerals!
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on March 06, 2011, 10:11:35 AM
Quote from: Chris Johnson on March 06, 2011, 09:39:03 AM
What about the land search?

Rolling Thunder revisited at the 7 site?

Shakedown at the village?

Or too early to say?

This is what has been made public. (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/niku7.html)

You may, of course, purchase more information.  I'd say that if you were in the $50,000 range and up, Pat and Ric would take your phone calls.  (My rates are much more reasonable, but that's because I have less inside information.)

I'd bet you could guarantee Rolling Thunder II if you promised to deliver $350,000 or so for that boat and crew alone.  :)

If, like me, you're just offering good advice and noble encouragement, you may take a number and stand with me in that line over there.   :-\
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Ric Gillespie on March 06, 2011, 11:14:39 AM
Quote from: Chris Johnson on March 06, 2011, 09:39:03 AM
What about the land search?

Rolling Thunder revisted at the 7 site?

Shakedown at the village?

Or too early to say?

Too early to say.  The primary focus will be the sea search. A land search would be a separate operation.  Separate boat, separate team, probably separate funding.  Shakedown at the village?  Nah.  We hammered the village in 2007 and it was pretty much a bust in terms of artifacts of interest.  I can't say we've found everything interesting that could possibly be there but the returns have diminished to the point that it's not reasonable to expend the resources it would take to flog it again. Rolling Thunder revisited at the Seven Site?  More like Rolling Thunder continued into some areas that we didn't have time to cover.  It's really a question of the availability of funding (as always).
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Ashley Such on March 06, 2011, 11:47:25 AM
Wasn't there a mention that (for those of you who are going to next year's expedition) you all would try to hunt down the bones that are possibly in Fiji? Unless if I'm mistaken....
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on March 06, 2011, 01:23:32 PM
Quote from: Ashley on March 06, 2011, 11:47:25 AM
Wasn't there a mention that (for those of you who are going to next year's expedition) you all would try to hunt down the bones that are possibly in Fiji? Unless if I'm mistaken....

The work in Fiji can (and should?) be done separately from Niku 7. (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/niku7.html)  It's a whole different kind of expedition.  Suva has air conditioning, restaurants, bars, movie theaters, hotels, automobiles, etc.  I suppose that those with lots of time on their hands might do the Suva search right before or right after Niku 7, but that seems like an overload to me.
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Ric Gillespie on March 07, 2011, 07:17:57 AM
You heard it here first -
A four-person TIGHAR team led by Niku VI Team Physician Jon Overholt MD will search for the missing bones in Fiji in May.  The focus of their search will be the Colonial War Memorial Hospital in Suva - a prime suspect location.  Previous TIGHAR searches for the bones in 1999 and 2006 were denied entry to the hospital but we now have the hospital administration's enthusiastic cooperation.
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Ric Gillespie on March 07, 2011, 07:48:54 AM
Quote from: Chris Johnson on March 07, 2011, 07:42:09 AM
Should you find the bones and if they then prove to be those of Amelia Earhart, what are TIGHARS plan for them?

Of course it would not be up to us to decide, but our recommendation would be that any conclusively identified remains be returned to the family for burial or other disposition as see fit. 
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Ashley Such on March 07, 2011, 12:21:35 PM
Quote from: Ric Gillespie on March 07, 2011, 07:17:57 AM
You heard it here first -

A four-person TIGHAR team led by Niku VI Team Physician Jon Overholt MD will search for the missing bones in Fiji in May. The focus of their search will be the Colonial War Memorial Hospital in Suva - a prime suspect location. Previous TIGHAR searches for the bones in 1999 and 2006 were denied entry to the hospital but we now have the hospital administration's enthusiastic cooperation.

Thanks, Ric. Good luck of finding the bones and here's to hoping for something wonderful to be found! *Holds up bottle of Diet Dr. Pepper*

 ;D
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Dan Swift on March 07, 2011, 12:28:43 PM
I agree with focusing on the deep water search now.  More artifacts are probably just going to simply add to the already convincing theory.  The "smoking gun" is on the ocean floor.  Find that, and nothing else matters.   Even if you find the original bones in Fiji, may not have enough evidence to prove they were AE's and that they really came from Niku.  Find a piece of the 10E, any piece. 
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Simon Dresner on March 10, 2011, 07:53:39 AM
Quote from: Dan Swift on March 07, 2011, 12:28:43 PM
I agree with focusing on the deep water search now.  More artifacts are probably just going to simply add to the already convincing theory.  The "smoking gun" is on the ocean floor.  Find that, and nothing else matters.   Even if you find the original bones in Fiji, may not have enough evidence to prove they were AE's and that they really came from Niku.  Find a piece of the 10E, any piece. 

If there still are bones in storage in Fiji, they'll be whole bones that only spent 3 years exposed to the elements and crabs on Nikumaroro and 70 years in a store room, rather than bone fragments that spent 73 years on Niku. The chances of being able to extract enough DNA from them for a match should be much better than they were for the fragments, because most of the DNA in bones is in the marrow and the conditions of storage will have been a lot better. If the mitochondrial DNA matches with AE's maternal-line relations, that should be enough to convince anyone except a conspiracy theorist they're AE's. The bigger 'if' for me is whether those bones can still be found there or have been thrown away at some point in the last 70 years.

Finding pieces of the Electra on the sea floor by itself wouldn't be enough. They need to be pieces that are definitively from the Electra. TIGHAR found pieces that could be from the Electra on Niku. What concerns me is that anything definitive, like the engines, could well be hidden somewhere under the thousands of tons of SS Norwich City debris that has been dragged off the reef over the decades since 1937. Identifying anything from the plane could be made difficult by the much larger quantity of ship debris it would be mixed with.
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Walter Runck on March 10, 2011, 09:08:04 PM
Quote from: Ric Gillespie on March 07, 2011, 07:17:57 AM
You heard it here first -
A four-person TIGHAR team led by Niku VI Team Physician Jon Overholt MD will search for the missing bones in Fiji in May.  The focus of their search will be the Colonial War Memorial Hospital in Suva - a prime suspect location.  Previous TIGHAR searches for the bones in 1999 and 2006 were denied entry to the hospital but we now have the hospital administration's enthusiastic cooperation.

Are there any pictures of Sir Harry's office extant?  I have been wondering what kind of a housekeeper he was and whether something like the mysterious boxes from one of the farthest corners of the empire might show up in the background of some photos, kind of like the Pan Am shot (http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/thumb/8/8e/M-130_Clipper_Nav_Station.jpg/300px-M-130_Clipper_Nav_Station.jpg).

It might be something to have on the target list for the next trip to Fiji.
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Ric Gillespie on March 11, 2011, 06:20:54 AM
Quote from: Walter Runck on March 10, 2011, 09:08:04 PM
Are there any pictures of Sir Harry's office extant?  I have been wondering what kind of a housekeeper he was and whether something like the mysterious boxes from one of the farthest corners of the empire might show up in the background of some photos, kind of like the Pan Am shot (http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/thumb/8/8e/M-130_Clipper_Nav_Station.jpg/300px-M-130_Clipper_Nav_Station.jpg).

There is an anecdotal recollection by a member of the staff that, for a time, one of boxes sat on a credenza in Secretary Vaskess's office but no photo has turned up so far.
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Tom Swearengen on March 14, 2011, 10:46:23 AM
Not that it means anything, but The History Channel had a very good program on the Atlantis "Discovery" Sunday nite. Seems to me that they have more funds than Discovery channel. Looking for Atlantis would be VERY difficult, and expensive.
Another thought, we know that there have been earthquakes and tsunamis in the pacific since 1937, but we may now know the severity. If there had been something similiar on Niku during the past 70 years, if may have moved all the evidence to somewhere else. However, there should be evidence of overwash in the 7 site area, as well as other locations. The wave action might even have helped TIGHAR in the preservation of the Electra parts off the reef.
Outbound wave action could have pulled the wreckage off the reef ledge, and into deeper water, but not at the landing location, but "somewhere" else around the ocean bottom. I guess all it takes is time and money.
Tom
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Dan Swift on March 14, 2011, 10:57:14 AM
Good point!  All of the aircraft pieces will be substantially lighter in weight than for example the pieces off the Norwich City.  And with the general current flow there to the south, what's left of AE's Electra could be intangled with the ship's debris, covered by much of the stern of the ship, or even further south than the ship's debris area.  So, you are right, the search area could be a bit larger than straight down the slope off the NW reef.  
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Tom Swearengen on March 14, 2011, 12:46:13 PM
If I understand Tsunamis, the wave action starts on the sea bed, and the water is moved upward and outward from the origin. Looking back on some of those instances in the past years, it would seem to me that if Niku were affected during one of these events, the wave current "might" life the Electra parts, and move them to wherever their weight overcame the current speed, and resettled on the botton, or on the reef, of on the shipwreck debris, or quite possibly, none of the above.
Having thought about this, my theory that the Electra is off the reef may be false, although I certainly hope not. If it was there, then 70+ years of storms, and at least several tsunamis probably have moved it. So, my appologies to Ric, and the TIGHAR TEAM, for being such a pain about looking for the Electra off the NW reef. It might just be a case of looking for some aluminum in a big ocean.
Someone tell me I'm wrong, and the Electra is safe and sound, in 1500Ft of water, on the sandy bottom, in virtually mint condition, just waiting for Ric to find it.
Tom
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Don Dollinger on March 14, 2011, 01:29:04 PM
Quote
Someone tell me I'm wrong, and the Electra is safe and sound, in 1500Ft of water, on the sandy bottom, in virtually mint condition, just waiting for Ric to find it.

If the reports of various villagers are any indication then it would be far from mint condition as it appears various parts of it washed up on shore, bit by bit, another part of it was ripped off and stuck in the reef face.  Lastly, it was supposed to be quite buoyant with all the empty fuel tanks inside the cockpit.  It may have floated quite some distance before finally going to Davy Jones locker.  If that is the case, you are now looking for a very small plane in a very large ocean and if ever found it would probably be by dumb luck by someone looking for something else entirely.  Sad part being, someone could find it and overlook it for what it is after taking a thrashing on the reef severe enough to rip the airframe from its moorings it may be wholly unrecognizable as an airframe.

LTM,

Don
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Tom Swearengen on April 05, 2011, 11:26:09 AM
Yahoo report today that Sir Richard Branson is going to explore several deep sea sites. Gee---as an adventurer, wonder if he would be interested in taking his submirsible to Niku to look around for the Electra?
Just thinking out loud.
Tom
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Tim Collins on April 05, 2011, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: Jeff on March 16, 2011, 08:20:55 PM
...

Of course if TIGHAR finds the definitive skeleton in the closet, SOMEBODY will be a willing-enough skeptic to claim that there's no way to know that THOSE bones are THE ACTUAL bones sent by Gallagher...

...

I was thinking the same thing. The only thing that DNA testing would prove is that EA's bones are in Fiji. Unless ironclad evidence proving chain of custody could be found, I can't imagine there'd be any way to difinitively connect them to Gardner, even if they are THE bones. What then? 

I'm still banking on smoking gun evidence being found in situ on or at Niku. (not that I haven't already been convinced)
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Don Dollinger on April 05, 2011, 12:45:00 PM
Quote
I was thinking the same thing. The only thing that DNA testing would prove is that EA's bones are in Fiji. Unless ironclad evidence proving chain of custody could be found, I can't imagine there'd be any way to difinitively connect them to Gardner, even if they are THE bones. What then?

As a big fan of conspiracy theories I once heard a quote on one of the many documentaries I have watched on the assignation of JFK that basically said that "so many theories have been floated throughout the years that when the real truth comes out no one will believe it."  I think that type of smoking gun coupled with the documentation that TIGHAR has uncovered concerning Gallagher finding, boxing, and sending in the bones would convince all but the most die hard conspiracy theorists.  To them the truth doesn't matter the only thing that matters is continuation of the conspiracy. ::)

LTM,

Don
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: James G. Stoveken on April 05, 2011, 08:12:28 PM
Quote
Unless ironclad evidence proving chain of custody could be found, I can't imagine there'd be any way to difinitively connect them to Gardner, even if they are THE bones.

If a collection of bones is found that match the list described by Dr. Hoodless (http://tighar.org/wiki/Bones_found_on_Nikumaroro), I think that that would provide a pretty solid link to Gardner Island.  And, if they should be found contained in a kanawa box... !   
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 06, 2011, 05:44:26 AM
Remember that Hoodless gives us not only the names of the bones but their measurements and a description of their condition. 
Title: Tourist Expedition, good or bad??
Post by: Hector M Zapata on April 08, 2011, 10:36:34 AM
Hi,

I did not know that there are tourist expeditionss to niku and also to kanton, is this good or bad for ae expeditions? Is is possible that "tourism" can take, destroy, remove, misplace important evidence??

Or, is it possible that tighar take advantage of this and send member to this location? visiting time is very short, maybe not usefull.

HZ

May/June 2012 Phoenix Expedition
Depart Apia (Samoa) on Wednesday 30th May 2012
This voyage includes: Swains (American Samoa),
Enderbury, Kanton, Orona (Hull) & Nikumaroro (Gardner) and the Tokelau Islands
Voyage finishes at Apia (Samoa) on Friday the 15th June 2012
Total of 17 days
Title: Re: Tourist Expedition, good or bad??
Post by: Bruce Thomas on April 08, 2011, 11:06:45 AM
Quote from: Hector M Zapata on April 08, 2011, 10:36:34 AM
I did not know that there are tourist expeditionss to niku and also to kanton, is this good or bad for ae expeditions? Is is possible that "tourism" can take, destroy, remove, misplace important evidence??
In addition to saying that for $3900 you'll get to camp overnight on the island, this expedition company (http://www.pacific-expeditions.com/voyage_options/phoenix_islands.asp) describes an irresistible Niku:
Quote
Gardner Island: Possibly the final resting place of Amelia Earhart, but we can not guarantee you we will find her crashed Lockheed plane.

We can find you plenty of diving with the manta rays and sharks. We definitely recommend a trip around the lagoon in our inflatable boat, bring your snorkeling gear for sure.

Be careful, this is the sort of magical atoll that you will fall in love with - probably at first sight - a green speck of paradise in the mighty blue Pacific

Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 08, 2011, 01:48:03 PM
Thanks for the heads-up on this.  We'll look into it.  Tourist visits to Niku are a big concern.
Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Alan Williams on April 08, 2011, 02:22:05 PM
Just my two-cents worth...

Thanks, Chris, for pointing out historical reference to commercial operators putting visitors on the ground on Niku. First thought that crosses my mind is, as much as we love our AE mystery, if the Kiribati central gov gives them permission to land, well then, they have permission to land.

Yeah, it's a desolate place, but who really knows who has sailed to and explored the place in recent times... I'll bet after the Discovery show at least one sail boat has detoured, even if not to touch the ground, to at least see Niku from afar.

I'd bet if the operators were approached politely with the obvious concerns thoughtfully described (perhaps without TOO much information) they would be happy to leave as much untouched as possible. (Then again, who knows, maybe that missing aircraft wheel has become uncovered again and a keen eye could now spot it?  :D )

Title: Re: Next Expedition
Post by: Ted G Campbell on April 08, 2011, 07:33:26 PM
Wouldn't it be something if it turns out to be a "Brit" that first found AE in 1940 and then along comes Sir Richard Branson and finds "her-L10" again in 20ll?
Ted Campbell