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Amelia Earhart Search Forum => The Islands: Expeditions, Facts, Castaway, Finds and Environs => Topic started by: jeff f on January 14, 2011, 08:01:28 AM

Title: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: jeff f on January 14, 2011, 08:01:28 AM

more important than starting fires !
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Hector M Zapata on January 14, 2011, 08:07:07 PM
how about from coconuts? early settlers plant them in niku. Right?
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on January 14, 2011, 09:24:18 PM
how about from coconuts? early settlers plant them in niku. Right?

Yes. 

"In a note to the file in Fiji on July 3, 1941 Gallagher wrote:

“There was no evidence of any attempt to dig a well and the wretched man presumably died of thirst. Less than two miles away there is a small grove of coconut trees which would have been sufficient to keep him alive if he had only found it. He was separated from those trees, however, by an impenetrable [sic] belt of bush.” -- "Gallagher's Clues." (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Research/Bulletins/22_GallaghersClues/22_GallaghersClues.html)
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Monty Fowler on January 16, 2011, 10:49:37 AM
Finding the coconuts is one thing. Getting them open is quite another. Especially getting them open in a way that you can extract the liquid inside them. Natives know how to do it. Castaways ... probably not. They could learn, sure, by trial and error, which takes a lot of time and energy, and energy is something that is going to get sucked out of you pretty fast in that environment.
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Hector M Zapata on January 17, 2011, 10:47:01 AM
Is it possible that they were sure that help would come?

I can imagine the brutal conditions in that island, but i also thing that the amount of time most people belived they were alive is too short. I think they were more focus making sure they see the help coming than start a longer time plan to survive, (finding water, food, shelter, etc). All this if they were not injured.

also one more question, are the crabs at niku edible?? if they are not toxic we can start see them as food instead of as a pest.  ::)

Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Bruce Thomas on January 17, 2011, 11:16:51 AM
... also one more question, are the crabs at niku edible?? if they are not toxic we can start see them as food instead of as a pest.  ::)
Oh yes, they are a delicacy.  Just 3 months after the AE/FN disappearance, Harry Maude and Eric Bevington visited the island with a team of native workers in anticipation of colonization.  In Bevington's diary (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Documents/Bevington_Diary.html) we read about the party's first encounter with the coconut crabs:

"Yells at once went up “Te ai” (the coconut crab). These are a great delicacy to them. I knew of them here from books but the natives didn’t. They are like huge spiders with vast pinchers with which they husk, and break open the coconuts. We caught three quickly then I insisted on continuing our trek."

Subsequently, the natives had feasted so much on the crabs that some of them suffered diarrhea.
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Don Dollinger on January 18, 2011, 11:14:25 AM
I can imagine the brutal conditions in that island, but i also thing that the amount of time most people belived they were alive is too short. I think they were more focus making sure they see the help coming than start a longer time plan to survive, (finding water, food, shelter, etc). All this if they were not injured.
Just day-to-day survival in that environment would take up most of your time and energy.  IMHO if they/she did not start thinking about survival soon after arrival they would not live long after their supplies were exhausted.  Recently I read on a survival site about time of survival without food or water.  Times vary although in hot and cold environments the lesser is the case.  Also it should be noted that it takes water to process food so if you are dehydrating then eating will hasten it. 

Bottom line is in an environment with a max temperature of 120 degrees, although you can last 4 weeks without food, you can only last 2 days without water.  If you go 1-1 1/2 days without water it is doubtful you will be physically capable on day 2 to even go about the steps necessary to find water.  I am doubtful she lasted more then a couple of weeks at most.

LTM

Don
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: jeff f on January 18, 2011, 12:41:49 PM
cursed like tantalus

surrounded by water.......and nothing to drink
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Don Dollinger on January 24, 2011, 11:16:32 AM
Quote
Near the palms we found two disused galvanised roofed huts and a large water tank

Where on the island where these located in relation to the 7 site? 
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Don Dollinger on January 27, 2011, 09:56:22 AM
Quote
"Near the palms we found two disused galvanised roofed huts and a large water tank

Stainless Steel was not invented until 1913 so I would think that a tank placed there in 1890 would be constructed of steel.  I would highly doubt there was any water still in the tank when the Norwich City crew was there even more so with AE's arrival.  Any standing water would surely have rusted through the bottom of the tank by then.  On the very slim off chance that it had held that long, any water in it would surely have been rust tainted.  Ever see what standing water looks like after sitting in metal container for a year or two.  I think the fact that the crew requested water from the rescue was quite telling that there was not any potable water available to them.

LTM

Don
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Don Dollinger on January 27, 2011, 12:55:35 PM
Quote
What about Galvanized? I know it was popular in England to prevent rusting?

Very good point, I never thought of gavanized.  Quick perusal of the internet shows that it was invented in 1730's, in common use by the 1830's and has a lifespan of 70-140 years.  I guess if push came to shove, I could be "enticed" to drink water that has been laying stagnant for 40+ years.  Could very well what was being boiled at the 7 site to sterilize it, versus sea water.

LTM,

Don
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Kevin Weeks on January 27, 2011, 02:05:49 PM
to me, reading that description of the water tank, it doesn't actually state what it's made of. could have been wooden for all we know.
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Kevin Weeks on January 28, 2011, 07:28:16 AM
what it's made of is directly related to whether it played a part. if it was a wooden barrel sitting in a tropical island it isn't going to last very long, nor is an iron barrel. 47 years is a long time for anything to be exposed to humidity and salt air. I have no idea what the quality of galvanizing was in the 1890's to determine if it would have lasted that long. based upon my experience with antique cars I would venture to guess that on a piece of sheet steel made into an enclosed container to hold water would have rusted out within that time period.
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Kevin Weeks on January 28, 2011, 09:39:26 AM
after 40+ years do you really think there would have been water left in it? and if there was would you drink it?

btw, Arundel's settlement supposedly lasted only one year due to drought, making it even less chance there would be water left in the container.
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Don Dollinger on January 28, 2011, 11:20:32 AM
Quote
what it's made of is directly related to whether it played a part. if it was a wooden barrel sitting in a tropical island it isn't going to last very long, nor is an iron barrel. 47 years is a long time for anything to be exposed to humidity and salt air.

I thought the same thing until I read up on galvanized.  Highlights below:

The process was first invented by a French chemist in 1742, and first used by Stanilaus Tranquille Modeste Sovel, another French chemist in 1836. By 1850 in Britain the galvanizing industry was using 10,000 tonnes or zinc per year for the protection of steel. For the past 150 years the process of galvanizing has been sucessful as a method of corrosion control.

The performance varies in different environments. In warm and dry environments the stability of zinc is remarkable. There is no reaction between the galvanized coating and the air so the protection continues.

In the presence of moisture in the atmosphere, the zinc stays stable indefinatley.

In rural areas, the life span of galvanized coatings may be reduced as the effects of aerial spraying and fertilisers.

By the sea coast the corrosion rate is increased because of the presence of soluble chlorides. Still, the protection of the galvanized coating is alot better than other protective systems, and can be further increased by a using a duplex galvanizing-plus-paint system.

Galvanized steel is chosen because it is very durable. The service life for galvanized steel is over 70 years without maintenance.  Galvanized coating can last 70-150 years without maintenance in most urban and rural atmospheres.

Whether or not there would be water present and whether or not it would be drinkable is another matter entirely.

LTM,

Don
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Kevin Weeks on February 02, 2011, 10:39:08 AM
don, I've read that very same description of galvanized. we are talking about a hot humid salt covered island. it is about the worst possible environment for anything steel to corrode. think of the construction. a flat piece of steel heavily galvanized is very resistant, but when you take that sheet and drill holes in it and rivet it into the shape of a container you will find that the coating is thoroughly undermined. it is a large guess on my part that a water barrel large enough for an island would not have been coated after construction. even if it had, one good scratch during shipment to the island would be enough to rust out.


another thought here is, why if they had a nice container like that would they even think of using the water in it. I would fill it with fresh seawater and use it as a means to distill fairly large amounts of water.
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Don Dollinger on February 03, 2011, 02:35:26 PM
Quote
a flat piece of steel heavily galvanized is very resistant, but when you take that sheet and drill holes in it and rivet it into the shape of a container you will find that the coating is thoroughly undermined. it is a large guess on my part that a water barrel large enough for an island would not have been coated after construction. even if it had, one good scratch during shipment to the island would be enough to rust out.

Oh contraire, a vessel that is manufactured as a watertank as its primary purpose is indeed retreated after manufacture.  I don't for one minute believe that the watertank was their ONLY means of water but believe it more to be a supplemental water source that was primarily refilled by collection of rainfall.  Maybe Ric can tell us if there is any evidence of Arundel wells? 

Hate to belie the point so lets just say we can agree to disagree, but I believe that even in that environment a galvanized watertank would last at least the 40+ years from when it was abandoned to AE's landing in '37.

Also, the zinc is chemically bonded to the steel and it would have to take one hell of a hit to sustain the damage necessary to breach the zinc coating.  This is from an article on how galvanized steel is made:

"The principal method of making steel resist corrosion is by alloying it with another metal, zinc. When steel is submerged in melted zinc, the chemical reaction permanently bonds the zinc to the steel through galvanizing. Therefore, the zinc isn't exactly a sealer, like paint, because it doesn't just coat the steel; it actually permanently becomes a part of it."

If I was on an atoll and my survivable depended on drinking some questionable water, I'm plugging my nose and swallowing, whats the worst it can do, kill me?  Well, if I die of thirst I'm just as dead.

LTM,

Don

Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Ted G Campbell on February 03, 2011, 06:34:10 PM
Don,
And if you drill a hole through the steel for a rivet then what?
Ted Campbell
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: pilotart on February 03, 2011, 10:45:54 PM
Galvanize is more than just a protective coating, it will also act as a sacrificial anode and protect the bare steel around a drilled hole or other exposure.

I would also expect that if a usable cistern were remaining from the Arundel site that it would have been worthy of some mention in the records.
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Don Dollinger on February 04, 2011, 08:05:14 AM
Quote
And if you drill a hole through the steel for a rivet then what?

After the manufacture the regalvanizing process also coats the rivet(s).  Next time you are in farm country check out a galvanized cattle water tank.  The rivets don't rust any quicker then the trough does. 

Worked for a couple of years at Frink's Sno Plow, a company that had the contract for about 60% of all the state plows in Upstate New York.  One of the products that my shop produced was the mount system for the hydraulic rams.  This was raw steel that was pattern cut and welded up into different configurations.  AFTER the manufacture process it was then sent out to be galvanized.  From there it was sent over to the assembly plant, mounted and then off to the paint shop and the whole assembly painted the obligatory blaze orange or yellow and the company logos affixed.  These plows take a real beating and even the parts that have all the paint chipped off of them are virtually rust free 5-10 years later.  The trucks that they used were mainly combo trucks that were plows as well as sanders (NY State uses a hellish amount of salt in their sand mixtures) and these plows were also subjected to plowing up the sand/salt mixture throughout the winter which is a very harsh environment and the galvanization was the protection.

Obviously, I have not seen a plow's condition after 40+ years as they don't stay in service that long, but if after 10 years of the kind of abuse they took had little effect I would think a water tank in a tropical environment even with the salt air would have a very good chance of surviving intact.

Ric, that might be a good question for the Niku residents, if they remember seeing or if they commandeered the water tank for their uses when living on Niku.

LTM,

Don
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Bruce Thomas on February 06, 2011, 07:27:57 AM
Looking at the satellite image of the island I can see a round pool like object on the south east end of the island.  Is this a tidal pool or something left over from the Loran station (sewage pit?)
The WWII photograph of the Coast Guard station (http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/1/16/USCG_Const_1944.jpg) shows that feature nicely.  Somewhere I read that the lagoon isn't so much affected by the tides, but there was probably some sort of connection between the lagoon and that water feature.
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on February 06, 2011, 09:18:19 AM
Looking at the satellite image of the island I can see a round pool like object on the south east end of the island.  Is this a tidal pool or something left over from the Loran station (sewage pit?)

That object has never been given a name (that I'm aware of) and so the information about it has never been collected in one place.

From the old Forum: (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Forum_Archives/200112.txt)

Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:00:19 EST
From:         Bill Carter
Subject:      Ponds at SE tip

<I think his impression that they contained primarily
rainwater was incorrect.  John Clauss?  Bill Carter?  Van Hunn?  You guys
were down there this trip.  Do you agree?>

When John and I were surveying the remains of the
Loran Station on September 11, we walked past the large roundish sunken area
that was devoid of vegetation and had some small pools of water in it.  (I
took a photo of this area).  The ground is dark brown almost black with what
I believe is (or was told) was some sort of fungus growing here. This area
also appears as a large brown patch on the sat photo.  The area could (and
probably does) hold rainwater during a large rainstorm but the area is
positioned such that the primary source of water is overflow from the lagoon
and my guess is that most of the water in this area is salt water.  Remember
that for mosquitoes to breed and live they need pools of fresh water.  There
are no mosquitoes on Niku.

Bill Carter
#2313CE

Date:         Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:02:54 EST
From:         John Clauss
Subject:      Re: Rain water...

> There are two ponds where Laxton was, down at the southeast tip - a big one
> that dries occasionally and seems to be tidal, and another smaller one that
> has fish in it.  I think his impression that they contained primarily
> rainwater was incorrect.  John Clauss?  Bill Carter?  Van Hunn?  You guys
> were down there this trip.  Do you agree?

Yes, the water in the ponds is definitely tidal, following the lagoon level.
Because of the high tides, this last trip, we were able to observe the level
changes in the ponds.

John


Date:         Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:08:57 EST
From:         Van Hunn
Subject:      Re: Ponds at SE tip

In reference to the ponds at SE tip, Christian D wrote:

<<I'm surprised no Tighar tasted the water. I, for one, always do.>>

Surely he is joking about doing taste-tests on strange bodies of water. The
small amount of water in the shallow pond was the color of coffee, while
water in the pond with fish was the color of dark tea.

I agree with John that both ponds are tidal and salty. I believe both ponds
are also overwashed by the lagoon during very high tides or storm surges.

Van


Date:         Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:02:55 EST
From:         Christian D
Subject:      Re: Ponds at SE tip

<<I'm surprised no Tighar tasted the water. I, for one, always do.>>

Van Hunn wrote:

>  Surely he is joking about doing taste-tests on strange bodies of water.

NO!  I certainly wasn't!  Just what I did on Kanton, Xmas, Funafuti, Palmyra,
etc...

Regards
Christian D.
***************************************************************************
From Ric

Are you familar with the term "crazy brave?"


Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on February 06, 2011, 07:25:13 PM
That rings a bell now, should have had a look in the archives myself!

Would these pools have been another plus for the aviators in choosing Niku as a landing spot (appart from lack of fuel)

I doubt that the presence of the apparent pool or pond would have been decisive in attempting a landing on the reef; it's not like they had a lot of other choices they could make.

Sighting the pond may have encouraged them to investigate that end of the island, which is not too far away from the Seven Site.
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Thom Boughton on February 07, 2011, 12:28:32 AM
But, was that pool even there in '37? 

Or was it something dug (for whatever reason) by the Coasties?



....TB
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Bruce Thomas on February 07, 2011, 07:43:57 PM
But, was that pool even there in '37? 

Or was it something dug (for whatever reason) by the Coasties?



....TB
The topographic map from the Pacific Islands Survey Expedition (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/New_Zealand_Survey_Report/kiwimap.jpg) (1938-39 timeframe) indicates the presence of that pool prior to WWII.
Title: Re: How Did the Castaways Get Fresh Water
Post by: Thom Boughton on February 07, 2011, 11:07:20 PM
Hmmmmm....so it does.  Hadn't seen that one before.  Thanks.





....TB