TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Radio Reflections => Topic started by: Sheila Shigley on December 19, 2010, 10:53:19 PM

Title: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Sheila Shigley on December 19, 2010, 10:53:19 PM
The [what sound to me] urgent repetitions of "Marie" and (something like) "New York" have me wondering whether AE had made contact with an amateur (or other) radio operator in addition to the proposed brief exchange with W40K.

But yet another female radio enthusiast/operator picking up AE's signal in 1937, and this one with a transceiver?  :)

Have the possibilities of "Marine" been explored, either as a radio contact designation, or possibly a reference to the Norwich City as a marine visual target?

Thinking "Marie, New York" may also refer to a location, I did a preliminary Google Maps search but haven't found anything close yet.

My apologies if some/all of this has been addressed - I did some searches through the forum to try and avoid duplication but may have missed earlier discussions!




Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 20, 2010, 07:21:53 AM
Have the possibilities of "Marine" been explored, either as a radio contact designation, or possibly a reference to the Norwich City as a marine visual target?

That's seems to me to be a new theory, FWIW.  Some genealogists may be able to help you play with Soundex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundex) to help explore the possibilities.
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Gus Rubio on December 20, 2010, 08:07:41 AM
Fred Noonan's second wife, married in March 1937, was named Mary.  Now, Mary (MAry) and Marie (MarIE) are 2 different names and pronounced differently, but maybe Betty heard or spelled it wrong.  
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Jennifer D on December 20, 2010, 08:31:00 AM
I would say it was noonan relaying a message to his wife.
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Sheila Shigley on December 20, 2010, 09:47:00 AM
I'd be more inclined toward the wife theory if AE hadn't also seemed to call out, "Marie."

Beside the first "N.Y. N.Y. N.Y." Betty has marked, "In here they were both on radio."  This observation that both AE and FN were talking seems to cover the next fragments as well: "Marie Marie : N.Y. N.Y. : Oh if they could hear me : N.Y. N.Y. : Marie" and then switches back to only AE, who says "It's going."

A possible interpretation of this as AE and FN both jumping on the radio at once and calling out "N.Y. N.Y. N.Y" and "Marie Marie" could be consistent with excitement at having made contact with someone.  "It's going" could of course refer to the fading signal.

But certainly, heightened emotions could lead AE to also call out FN's wife's name in desperation, though it doesn't seem as likely.

On the other hand, the seeming turn-taking later (AE calling "George," followed by FN calling "Marie") could point back to the wife theory, though it could also be interpreted as AE's message to George being interrupted by new contact with "Marie," especially considering that they seem to then switch from personal messages back to "Marie, hey!"  "Watch that battery!"  "SOS"

But Betty's notes may not indicate time gaps, if I understand correctly - and so much meaning in human speech is conveyed by timing and pacing.
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Chris Johnson on December 20, 2010, 10:56:01 AM
I've just been re reading Betty's note book http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Documents/Notebook/notebook.html
and yes you can read some of it like they have voice contact with someone (is that technicaly possible on a harmonic? I don't know)

Trouble is you an read anything you wan't out of a set of words if you so desire.

IF they had 2 way radio contact with another operator it could account for all of the apparent attempts at passing bearings onto them.  If the signal was bad then the similarity in some of the numbers could be accounted for by them having to repeat what they hear in the phones and then correct them.

Idal speculation I know and no thread of evidence for I appologise ;)
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Don Dollinger on December 20, 2010, 01:03:52 PM
Quote
IF they had 2 way radio contact with another operator it could account for all of the apparent attempts at passing bearings onto them.

Would think that highly improbable as they couldn't hear ITASCA voice on either channel.

LTM

Don
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Chris Johnson on December 20, 2010, 01:11:06 PM
Agree, that why i was stressing idel speculation but at least you confirm the idea that 2 way contact was not possible due to the lose of the training antena.

What then is the meaning of the numbers, some of which could be positions?
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Sheila Shigley on December 21, 2010, 04:33:59 PM
I apologize in advance if the answer to this has been given--but are we sure Betty implied "City" in her "N.Y." entries?

I understand that her "or something that sounds like New York" implies that her "N.Y." was an abbreviation for two full words, but did she ever imply three full words?

It's probably moot, since "N(ew) Y(ork)" could be "Norwich" alone, regardless.
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: ken jay brookner on December 22, 2010, 07:45:19 AM
In 1935 and 1939 W4OK was assigned to F.G. Carroll from Lake Worth, Florida and West Palm Beach, Florida respectively.

I had to find a fellow ham with callbooks this old.  Unfortunately, amateur radio callsign data this old is not available online.  Don, K8MFO, had these books and provided the info.  I'm a member of the Boatanchors email list, which is a large group of hams who like to discuss and restore old amateur, military, and commercial radio equipment and that's where I went to find someone with the info. 

I don't recall the radios used to receive these post loss messages, but I've restored some commercial home consoles from that era.  While their dials are not very accurate as to frequency received, some were decent shortwave receivers.  Considering that 1937 was about the height of that solar cycle for radio propagation and that the transmitter was right adjacent to salt water (a great reflector), it's certainly possible that these signals were heard in the US and elsewhere.

You can see a graph of past solar cycles here.  Look for the "Monthly  Sunspot Numbers 1900-1999" graph.  The higher the sunspot number, the better for radio wave propagation.  http://www.wm7d.net/hamradio/solar/historical.shtml

As an aside, another member recalled a project in 1966 or 67 to duplicate the Earhart/Noonan mission.  Collins Radio may have been involved and this member remembers listening to the radio communication audio in his house which was piped in via telephone.  His father became an engineering director with the Apollo program about this time and was somehow connected with this project.  That was all he knew about it.

kenb, KY5G
 

Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 22, 2010, 09:03:51 AM
In 1935 and 1939 W4OK was assigned to F.G. Carroll from Lake Worth, Florida and West Palm Beach, Florida respectively. ...

Great first post, Ken!  TIGHAR had gone through the same exercise to identify W4OK.

The sunspot information about 1937 is news to me.

I'm a lowly tech (KC2NEB), but a friend is encouraging me to move up in class.   :)
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Bob Brandenburg on December 22, 2010, 09:35:33 AM
Ken,

We also are interested in knowing -- in connection with another post-loss signal we're working -- who held ham license W6CHI in 1936.  Could you ask K8MFO to check?

Thanks,

Bob Brandenburg
TIGHAR #2286
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: ken jay brookner on December 22, 2010, 10:09:20 AM
Hi Marty!

Thanks re the post...

I expect that TIGHAR has already run propagation predictions between the island and Florida using this, or similar data.  I ran a quick, unscientific prediction and it looks like there was reasonable probability that propagation for EA's signals to have been heard in Georgia existed--the closest location to Florida that was a default in the program I used.  I looked at 3, 6, and 12 MHZ and I did not take into account transmitter power at various frequencies, including harmonics, or the transmitter and receiving antennas used.  So, YMMV.

Propagation programs are not absolute, but provide probabilities that a path may exist and how good that signal path might be.  Setting these predictions up can become quite involved and time consuming--and I did not do that in this instance.  So, basically, I was looking to see if any kind of path existed at any time during the day.  I use these tools often in my hobby, but I'm not expert in their use.

I think I'm beginning to stray a bit off topic...

Bob, sure, I'll check that call out for you.

BTW, Marty, I began as a tech.  Right, move up to General and get on HF.  It'll open up a whole new world for you.  Let me know if I can help.

73,
kenb
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 22, 2010, 10:15:15 AM
... I began as a tech.  Right, move up to General and get on HF.  It'll open up a whole new world for you.  Let me know if I can help.

The only reason for me to move up is to get a cooler callsign.

I got the tech license for RC aircraft.  I've been on the air once in my life, on a borrowed set.

I don't think there's anything you can do for me but to keep making great posts.  Much appreciated!   :)
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: ken jay brookner on December 22, 2010, 10:57:26 AM
Bob...

Don does not have a 1937 callbook, but is looking at 1935 and 1939 books and bracketing the results.

Don writes:

W6CHI
 
In the 1935 Callbook - Charles Miguel - 525 Filbert Street - Oakland, Calif.
The call no longer appears in the 1939 Callbook, nor in 1948.
Going back further than you asked .. .in the 1930 Callbook, W6CHI belonged to Donald Kirk - 211 E. 24th St. - Los Angeles, Calif.


I don't know the context of the W6CHI call, but if this were a morse code contact--and i doubt that it is--Don goes on to say:

The difference between and "E" and an "I" is of course one DIT.    So it would be possible to copy W6CHE and W6CHI in error, one way or the other.
 
In all of the books I have here, from 1930 to 1948,  W6CHE belonged to Jack McCullough in California -- he was a very well known amateur -- he and his friend Bill Eitel - W6UF formed the company EIMAC, maker of quality transmitting tubes, which are still made today.       I believe both McCullough and Eitel passed away years ago.     Of course I was not around in the 1930s as a ham, but the only call similar to the ones you've listed that I am familiar with is W6CHE.  It's possible that he had a state of the art station at that time.


"E" and "I" would be difficult, but not impossible, to confuse on phone.

Hope this helps.

kenb
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Don Dollinger on December 22, 2010, 11:13:43 AM
Quote
On the other hand, the seeming turn-taking later (AE calling "George," followed by FN calling "Marie") could point back to the wife theory, though it could also be interpreted as AE's message to George being interrupted by new contact with "Marie," especially considering that they seem to then switch from personal messages back to "Marie, hey!"  "Watch that battery!"  "SOS"

Had a shortwave receiver as a kid that I hooked up to a UHF TV bowtie on the roof of the house and when going through the dial would pick up various signals at different times that I would assume were radio propagation as I lived on Lake Ontario and would get bits and pieces with what little I had for an antenna from all over the great lakes.  Most was nonsensical because it would fade in and out and signal cross (hope I am using the right terms here not being a hammy) and get bit and pieces.  I had a light come on when I read in one of the posts where New York City could have been in fact Norwich City (sounds close enough).  Likewise "Marie Hey" could very well have been "May Day"  of course that would not explain all of the utterances of Marie in Betty's notebook but maybe a couple of them.

From reading from her notebook it does seems she was only picking up bits and pieces as well and may very well have only got pieces.

LTM

Don
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Bob Brandenburg on December 22, 2010, 02:58:49 PM
Ken,

Reception probability depends not only on the ionospheric conditions, but also on the power radiated by the transmitting antenna in the direction of the receiver.   These issues are discussed in two research papers on the TIGHAR website: "Harmony and Power, Could Betty Have Heard Amelia Earhart on a Harmonic?", and "WE-13C Transmitter Harmonic Power Output".  The same methodology was used to compute reception probability for the other post-loss signal reports, except those proven to be hoaxes. 

Bob     
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 22, 2010, 04:32:38 PM
"Harmony and Power, Could Betty Have Heard Amelia Earhart on a Harmonic?" (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Research/Bulletins/30_BettyHarmonic/30_Bettyharmonic.html)

"WE-13C Transmitter Harmonic Power Output." (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Research/ResearchPapers/Brandenburg/WE-13.htm)

"How do I search TIGHAR.org?" (http://tighar.org/news/help/82-how-do-i-search-tigharorg)
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: ken jay brookner on December 22, 2010, 05:23:31 PM
Bob,

Exactly.  There are a myriad of variables...

Let me know if I can help further with callsign lookups.  I've found another source with a 1937 callbook.

kenb
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Ricker H Jones on December 23, 2010, 07:58:17 AM
 Fred's 2nd wife Mary Beatrice Martinelli was sometimes called "Mary Bea" by family members.  "Mary Bea" may have sounded like "Marie" to Betty.
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Bob Brandenburg on December 23, 2010, 09:26:06 AM
Outstanding, Ken.

This resolves a nagging issue in the post-loss signals analysis. 

Our primary source for the report in question was a message from the Coast Guard division commander in San Francisco, informing the Coast Guard cutter Itasca of a telephone report from a Charles McGill, W6CHI, about an Earhart signal he claimed to have heard.   

The Oakland Tribune ran a story about the event, identifying the caller as Charles Miguel, and quoted Miguel as saying he had held W6CHI until it expired in December 1936, but had applied for a new license and expected to have it soon.

We suspected -- and you have confirmed -- that "McGill" actually was "Miguel".  Apparently, whoever took the phone call at the Coast Guard office garbled the spelling.  It's plausible that Miguel told the Coast Guard that he had previously held W6CHI, by way of establishing his credibility, and the call-taker missed the past-tense.

Seemingly small details like this are crucial in developing the chain of evidence for assessing a reported signal.  As it turned out, a follow-up Coast Guard investigation of Miguel found that he had a dubious reputation and was not to be trusted.   But we still needed to verify that Miguel was W6CHI.

Many thanks.

Bob

   
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: ken jay brookner on December 23, 2010, 09:43:27 AM
You're welcome, Bob.  Let me know if I can do anything else to help.

kenb
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Dan Swift on December 23, 2010, 10:20:08 AM
Quote
IF they had 2 way radio contact with another operator it could account for all of the apparent attempts at passing bearings onto them.

Would think that highly improbable as they couldn't hear ITASCA voice on either channel.

LTM

Don

It is possible that after a successful landing on the reef, they discovered the damaged antenna and rigged a new one.  Wouldn't be very difficult.  
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Gus Rubio on December 23, 2010, 01:17:48 PM
(Not sure if this belongs here, but it's sort of on-topic.)

There's the possibility that Betty interpreted "Norwich City" as "New York City", as we know.  How widely-known was the wreck of the NC at the time of AE/FN's flight?  How would they have know the wreck was the NC?  Did the wreck have its name on it at that time?  Visible from the air, before they landed?

Also, do we know how would "Norwich" have been pronounced at the time, by AE?  "Nor-ik"?  "Nor-witch"?  "Nor-wick"?  

Just wondering.  I'm amazed at the detective work by some of the posters, finding relevant 70-year-old records is something!

EDIT- I may have found some answers myself, but please reply if you like, thanks.
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 23, 2010, 02:33:38 PM
Did the wreck have its name on it at that time?  

Yes, the name was on it. (http://tighar.org/wiki/Norwich_City#Identification_of_the_Norwich_City)

Quote
Visible from the air, before they landed?

My guess is "probably not."

Quote
Also, do we know how would "Norwich" have been pronounced at the time, by AE?  "Nor-ik"?  "Nor-witch"?  "Nor-wick"?  

I don't think we know.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Sheila Shigley on December 23, 2010, 06:35:57 PM
In the interests of brainstorming, here is a list of Navy code words (NAVEXOS P-474) which includes a number of Mandate islands:

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/NAVEXOS_P-474M.htm

Ironically, I landed on this site by accident, and in the "M" section no less.  This glossary was published at the end of WWII, but I haven't found out yet whether the list was current throughout the war, and more importantly, before.
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: ken jay brookner on December 31, 2010, 11:42:34 AM
I came across a good analysis of one of the lesser known radio signal propagation modes in an article i was reading this morning.  The author calls it "skewed" propagation and he goes on to explain a propagation phenomena that many hams using directional antennas have observed--me included. 

I note this here because it may explain why some of the radio direction bearing lines (direction finding the post loss transmissions) seem so far off of the mark.  It could also rule back in some reception reports of the post loss transmissions that would otherwise be ruled out by looking at normal propagation predictions.

You can read the article at this link:  http://www.worldradiomagazine.com/wro_issues/2011/WRO_01_2011.pdf

The article begins on page 38 and is titled "Our Signal’s Scenic Route: Dissecting a Skewed Path," by Carl Luetzelschwab, K9LA.

I wasn't sure where to post this, but since this thread already included some propagation discussion...

I expect that those doing the propagation analysis for TIGHAR are already familiar with this mode, but I wanted to mention it in case it was new information.

kenb
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Christophe Blondel on January 25, 2011, 03:27:55 PM
Also, do we know how would "Norwich" have been pronounced at the time, by AE?  "Nor-ik"?  "Nor-witch"?  "Nor-wick"?

I don't think we know.

We probably won't know how "Norwich" would have been pronounced by AE at the time. But everybody can hear how she pronounced "sandwich" during the 1932 interview reproduced one minute and a few seconds after the beginning of the "American experience" documentary online at http://video.pbs.org/video/1414964998/. She even says it twice, but does she pronounce it twice identically ?

English is not my native language however, so I must let other people decide whether this sample makes it more or less likely that she could pronounce "Norwich city" in a way that could make it sound like "New York City" on radio. I would indeed greatly appreciate knowing what native English speakers think about it.

Christophe Blondel (who knows by experience that even without a noisy engine, you often have difficulties understanding what people tell you on radio)
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Mark A. Cook on August 23, 2011, 12:14:47 AM
"Posted by: Dan Swift
It is possible that after a successful landing on the reef, they discovered the damaged antenna and rigged a new one.  Wouldn't be very difficult." 


I could be wrong on this but if this did happen even on  a untuned antenna could AE & FN not start atleast picking up some of the local area traffic of ship's and planes looking for them too in turn start to being able to talk back to them???

I got a copper pipe as one anteena only about 30 foot high and that talk's 3 to 4 states away.. And 2nd antenna set-up of only 2- 60 foot of  bare wire and I pick up even outside USA on it..

You got a other Ham on here I am KD8LWH out of W.V.

LTM
Title: Re: Theory: Was "Marie" a radio contact in "N.Y."?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on August 23, 2011, 07:26:22 AM
I could be wrong on this but if this did happen even on  a untuned antenna could AE & FN not start at least picking up some of the local area traffic of ship's and planes looking for them to in turn start to being able to talk back to them?

The ships and planes would have been using Morse Code.  Neither AE nor FN were skilled at interpreting or transmitting code. (http://tighar.org/wiki/Failure_to_communicate#Abandonment_of_CW_.28Morse_Code.29)  Their transmitter was crystal-controlled (http://tighar.org/wiki/Radio_equipment_on_NR16020#Transmitter) and could only transmit on three frequencies: 500, 3105, and 6210 kcs.  I'm not sure what frequencies the search personnel would have used or whether AE and FN would know what they were to tune in the receiver to listen for traffic.