TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Don Yee on March 14, 2023, 07:41:31 AM
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Hi all,
I was rewatching the Ballard documentary 'Expedition Amelia' and on the very last day Ballard's crew recovers an object they they think might be aluminum but after close up examination determine it's not. It has a white-ish shiny side and a side that looks like it's got wood fragments attached (perhaps indicating that the object was once glued to a wooden structure). They don't discuss what it may be but I was wondering if it could be the covering over wooden furniture, like cabinets or a tables? Would the Electra have had any cabinets or similar wooden components on it covered by a finished surface?
Don...
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Good question.
There was a platform over the fuselage tanks to permit transit between the cockpit and the navigator's station. It had some kind of smooth surface, probably glued to plywood, but it was dark colored.
The navigator's table seems to have been bare plywood.
The floor in the cabin was plywood covered with linoleum. No color specified. Could the stuff Ballard found be linoleum?
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My first thought was linoleum although it seems very thin (I've pulled linoleum out of a house built in the early 1900s and it was quite thick and had a black backing. The other question would be if the Norwich City would have had any such material on board (it was built decades before the Electra). Seems like linoleum goes back to the mid-1800s.
Ric, this is a zoomed out version of the image that you posted above (it's from: https://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/61_FuelSystem/61_FuelSystem.htm).
Is the floor in front of the tanks bare plywood? It seems rather shiny. Do you have a better resolution image?
Don...
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I think we have some linoleum-like material salvaged from the Electra wreck in Alaska. I'll dig it out.
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It looks like Formica. Older Formica often has a wood backing.
It was already in use for interior surfaces. It might have been used in an airplane cabin, boat cabin, or house.
Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formica_(plastic) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formica_(plastic))
LTM,
Don W
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Lockheed specs say linoleum.
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Linoleum makes more sense for that application. Also, linoleum was often made with asbestos fibers to make it fire resistant, which would have also made sense. The old 9-inch linoleum squares often seen on cellar floors of old houses reputedly always contain asbestos.
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Linoleum makes more sense for that application. Also, linoleum was often made with asbestos fibers to make it fire resistant, which would have also made sense. The old 9-inch linoleum squares often seen on cellar floors of old houses reputedly always contain asbestos.
My only hesitation is that in the Ballard video the material seems very thin (perhaps 1/16"). So it looks more like veneer that was glued to wood (which was/is common in cabinets and furniture). Linoleum often has a backing that provides some cushioning when used in flooring applications. That's why I thought cabinets. Wasn't there some info about Noonan having a shelf for his navigation books? Besides that I don't see any other cabinets in any of the cockpit photos available on the internet.
Don...
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Wasn't there some info about Noonan having a shelf for his navigation books?
No. You're thinking of the navigator's bookcase we found, that turned out to be from a B-24.
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There are really two questions here -- what was it that Ballard found, and what was it that was in the Electra. I thought the Ballard find looked like Formica. There's nothing other than the area in which it was found to suggest it was part of the Electra. There are other possible sources for a piece of Formica in the island's history. And it might be something else.
LTM,
Don W
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Yep. There's no way it can be a diagnostic artifact. At best, it could be one of the many "interesting possibilities" found over the years.
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I grabbed the segment of the doc where they examine the object. Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRGhtxThcmM
Don...
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What were the floors of the buildings in the village made of? This might be village debris.
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What were the floors of the buildings in the village made of? This might be village debris.
Government building floors were concrete. Village house floors were local material. We saw no linoleum or other western flooring material in the village.
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Yep. There's no way it can be a diagnostic artifact. At best, it could be one of the many "interesting possibilities" found over the years.
Agree. However some questions to ponder.
1. Was there any linoleum or Formica on the Electra?
2. If yes, could it be determined the type/color used? Does any similar material still exist from the manufacturer?
3. If yes, could one do a chemical/materials analysis to determine similarity?
Even if you could and it was a match that does not mean it was definitive. Still, if Ballard was only focused on aluminum and the engines did he miss any other items?
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Still, if Ballard was only focused on aluminum and the engines did he miss any other items?
I think Ballard did a good job finding what was there (including a ball cap, wine bottle, and the sonar fish we lost in 1991) - except for the shallow areas in close to the reef edge. We know there is at least one suspicious artifact there - the "embedded object" we tried to recover but couldn't relocate. Ballard didn't see it. Scattered pieces, including engine parts, embedded or grown-over with coral within about 100 feet of the reef edge are, IMO, all that is left of NR16020.
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I'm curious to know what materials are and are not likely to be encrusted by coral. As an animal I'm sure that coral are choosy about what they will grow on (what ever the Ballard object is coral didn't seem to grow on it). The question could be are there any of those materials likely to be part of the Electra. I agree that a lot of the plane may have been encrusted to the point where it is no longer recognizable as a man-made object, but is that true for everything on the plane?
Don...
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Coral growth needs sunlight. Below about 200 meters there is no significant sunlight. If the aircraft or aircraft wreckage is deeper than 200 meters it should be coral-free and relatively easy to detect.
Ballard did not see any airplane wreckage so either all of the surviving wreckage is shallower than 200 meters and buried in coral, or in deeper water than anywhere he looked.