TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Join the search => Topic started by: Shannon Council on October 24, 2010, 03:30:44 AM

Title: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Shannon Council on October 24, 2010, 03:30:44 AM
Dr. King presented an excellent summary of TIGHAR's work from 1988ish until now, at the recent UNR "Distinguished Archeologists" series, Oct. 20th. He should have brought more copies of "Thirteen Bones" and "Amelia Earhart's Shoes ...", as these were sold out shortly after the presentation was completed. I was surprised at how many young kids were there - by interest, or under duress from their course requirements - and how utterly silent and inquisitive they were during the dissemination of the Niku hypothesis. If you can get kids under twenty years old to shut up for one hour and listen, and ask meaningful questions, then you've hit on something wonderfully interesting.

The PowerPoint show given had some interesting slides I haven't seen yet on TIGHAR's web-site, including a hi-resolution scan of Bevington's October 1937 going-away photo of Niku, focusing on the Norwich City wreck, and which had a recently identified anomaly in the lower left hand corner, nicknamed as "Nessie." This scan shows what might possibly be the upside down landing gear of an aircraft.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Research/Bulletins/57_Bevingtonphoto/57_HidinginSight.htm

Can this hi-res photo that Dr. King presented be posted on TIGHAR?

Cheers and thanks.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on October 24, 2010, 05:10:30 AM
"Hiding in Plain Sight" (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Research/Bulletins/57_Bevingtonphoto/57_HidinginSight.htm).

Can this hi-res photo that Dr. King presented be posted on TIGHAR?

"Can" is a word that denotes possibility, power, capability, and the like.  tighar.org can host high-resolution photos in any number of ways.  We have the disk space and bandwidth.

Whether the folks who are working on the hi-res photo will post the image on tighar.org is a different question.    :P

My answer to that question is, "I don't know."
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Chris Johnson on October 24, 2010, 07:51:37 AM
When the time is right springs to mind
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Daniel Paul Cotts on October 24, 2010, 12:55:56 PM
An old message thread "The Bevington Photo" has Ric saying in reply #22 dated April 27, 2010, "Oxford is really draconian about permission to publish images so we probably won't be able to put the hi-res image on the website."
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Ric Gillespie on October 25, 2010, 08:06:19 AM
As Dan Cotts notes, we can't publish the hi-res image due to legal restrictions.  I don't want to encourage amateur speculation about what the photo shows. The photograph has been and continues to be the subject of intense scrutiny by Jeff Glickman of Photek, our forensic imaging specialist.  When we have a professional, scientific analysis of what can and cannot be said about the image we'll make that public.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on March 27, 2012, 11:51:22 AM
The recent press conference at the State Department (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,622.0.html) (20 March 2012) has piqued interest in the photo taken by Bevington in 1937 (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/57_Bevingtonphoto/57_HidinginSight.htm).

An EPAC member noted that the damage done to NR16020 in the crash at Luke Field (http://tighar.org/wiki/Luke_Field) shows how vulnerable the landing gear was to being torn off in an accident.

(http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/thumb/2/25/Luke_Field_March_20%2C_1937_Hawaii_Aviation.jpg/800px-Luke_Field_March_20%2C_1937_Hawaii_Aviation.jpg)
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Harry Howe, Jr. on March 27, 2012, 12:53:18 PM

I need to be enlightened, but I was under the impression that Mr. Glickman's work in enhancing and analyzing and reporting on the "Nessie" photo was done under contract with TIGHAR.  Did that contract place limits on what TIGHAR could release?  Or, did the limits come about from others (Bevington heirs, Oxford), or  the State Dept.?
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Ric Gillespie on March 27, 2012, 01:11:13 PM

I need to be enlightened, but I was under the impression that Mr. Glickman's work in enhancing and analyzing and reporting on the "Nessie" photo was done under contract with TIGHAR.  Did that contract place limits on what TIGHAR could release?  Or, did the limits come about from others (Bevington heirs, Oxford), or  the State Dept.?

The restrictions come from Oxford University.  We had to pay a tidy sum to get the use of the high-resolution image for research purposes only.  Publication permission would be much more expensive and it wouldn't do a layman any good anyway.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Shannon Council on March 27, 2012, 02:39:48 PM
CNN posted a photo of a blown up hi-res version of Nessie taken during what I assume was the State Dept. press conference.
I think this was one of the exhibits Ric used when giving the presentation.
I do not know if this is the same hi res scan used in the forensic analysis by Jeff Glickman and the State Dept.

news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/reports-new-search-planned-for-amelia-earhart/?iref=allsearch

If you zoom in on the CNN pic, you'll see the details are different from what the low res version leads the ( untrained ) eye to believe. Lots of interesting curves and straight lines that seem to match up somewhat with an Electra's landing gear ( from what I recall, the model #41065 "worm gear" version of the landing gear, of which AE's plane had. )

But you'll most likely go cross eyed trying to do a cursory analysis and mentally lining up a simple 3D overlay from diagrams or other photos of the landing gear.



Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Heath Smith on March 27, 2012, 05:09:34 PM
That is definitely the highest resolution picture that I have seen so far. Attached is an equalized version. It looks like a sailor carrying a lifesaver and has a walking stick tucked under his arm... I guess we will have to wait to see the improved version.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on March 27, 2012, 06:02:53 PM
That is definitely the highest resolution picture that I have seen so far. Attached is an equalized version. It looks like a sailor carrying a lifesaver and has a walking stick tucked under his arm... I guess we will have to wait to see the improved version.
Good one Heath ;D
It's not the enhanced version in the circle, it comes out a lot clearer but again, scale is an issue especially at that distance.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Gary LaPook on March 27, 2012, 06:42:28 PM
That is definitely the highest resolution picture that I have seen so far. Attached is an equalized version. It looks like a sailor carrying a lifesaver and has a walking stick tucked under his arm... I guess we will have to wait to see the improved version.
You're right, that is what it looks like.

gl
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Randy Reid on March 27, 2012, 09:39:58 PM
re: equalized cnn pic.
Looks like a small skiff to me, transom faces camera, bow toward beach. The other "nessie" pic still looks like a human wader to me although when I try to enhance the picture I get all kinds of weird shapes, none of which looks like a landing gear.
Randy
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Tom Swearengen on March 27, 2012, 10:04:48 PM
guys---this is alittle different than the original. Alittle clearer when you zoom in.
I was wrong. Its not a landing gear strut stucking up out of the reef. It appears to have something black and round/oblong at the top, and a rather round base. It almost looks as though its the back view of an engine cowling, with the landing gear bent over on the right side, and a prop blade extending down to the left into the water.  Yep---thats big stretch. But---it may have been possible that the gear was stuck in the reef, and with wave action, tore the engine/gear mount off the wing. The Electra and everything else goes over the reef, and isnt seen by Lambrecht. But, between his flight and the October visit by Bevington, the waves and currents wash this wreckage on the reef to the point, where Bevington takes the picture.

Yep---I know that really pushing a logical scenario, but---I'm open for suggestions.
Tom
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Shannon Council on March 28, 2012, 02:16:15 AM
Shannon, the object within the circle is from the high res photo although it has not been enhanced in this picture.
news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/reports-new-search-planned-for-amelia-earhart/?iref=allsearch
Yes I realize that the encircled image is just a higher resolution version of the original Nessie photo from almost two years ago, but is it enhanced? "Enhanced" is a generic term, and just re-scanning at a higher resolution would "enhance" it to some degree. I assume you meant "enhance" as in running some software magic on it, like edge detection, hi pass filtering, contrast and brightness adjustments, leveling, normalizing, shadowing, etc. etc.

What I meant is that the image posted on CNN per the link above is what I believe I saw in 2010, during Dr. King's presentation, and if contrasted side-by-side with the low resolution Nessie photo, shows remarkable differences in detail.

The low resolution pic looks to my aging eyes as if the tire is the most vertical part of the object, supported by the struts below it, stuck into a crevice. The high resolution pic looks as if
the steel hardware is somewhere near horizontal or slightly diagonal, and entangled in a small mess of wreckage, with the toroidal black tire still inflated and view-able at any number of oblique angles.

A key to these images is the TIGHAR Tracks Oct. 2011 summary of Nessie's analysis, identifying that the "worm" type of landing gear on NR 16020 is consistent to what is identifiable in the photograph's components. The worm gear has the same, if a slightly larger, radius as the fully inflated tire.

LTM


Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Chris Johnson on March 28, 2012, 03:27:29 AM
That is definitely the highest resolution picture that I have seen so far. Attached is an equalized version. It looks like a sailor carrying a lifesaver and has a walking stick tucked under his arm... I guess we will have to wait to see the improved version.

You're right, that is what it looks like.

gl
The low res picture always looked like someone in the surf waving to me.  Maybe AE rushing out of the jungle to late to be rescued by Bevington and Co

On the other hand I'm sure TIGHAR and the US gov have got a better angle on it whatever it may be.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on March 28, 2012, 06:08:24 AM
The photo available to the public is the low resolution version of the original photo. The photo used in the CNN circle is the original high resolution one. The sharpness and image detail will basically never be better than it is in the original image capture at the given resolution of the capture device, such as a camera. So a 1930's cameras resolution would not be as good at capturing detail as a 21st century digital camera however, that said, you can improve the quality of the image through enhancing it with techniques you mentioned Shannon. Remember, if the original capture device didn't pick up the detail then, no amount of enhancing will add that detail.
You can almost, but not quite, make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Shannon Council on March 28, 2012, 05:54:51 PM
I guess it's fun to ruminate through all this, and of course there is excitement about recent developments.  What has me rolling on the floor is the scurrying for each to see for himself - apparently thereby to learn whether the U.S. State Department and Dr. Ballard are fools based one's own judgment of what they see in the picture...  It's the American way, I suppose, and I am glad that spirit is alive and well if that's what it is - but it does strike me as quite funny this morning.

It seems to me that most of us are just trying to be amateur photo sleuths and replicate what the professionals determined, and there is no harm in that. It certainly is good for exercising the visual cortex. Trying to see a photo of the wreckage of Amelia's Electra would cause most anyone to scurry, although simply clicking a link and opening a web page will suffice.

Anyone who disputes what Jeff Glickman and the State Dept. photo analysts determined the image shows better bring some big guns to that argument.

As an example of the mind numbing analysis Jeff has done with other images, check out this paper on the famous "Big Foot" movie he wrote:

www.photekimaging.com/Support/rptcol2.pdf
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Heath Smith on March 28, 2012, 06:33:40 PM

It is interesting, this debate about the professional photo analysis, the State Department blind study, and the public curiosity. I am also troubled by several things that I am reading on this thread.

Thinking about it, I cannot recall one single historical event where photographs, digital or otherwise, were not readily made available to the public, especially for an event that happened nearly 75 years ago and of a historical significance as the case is here. It would be understandable if there was some need for secrecy however that is surely not the case here.

I do find it troubling that a photograph snapped by some poor sod in 1937 of a deserted remote island in the middle of the Pacific now has some intrinsic commercial value and is not made available to the public. Now, apparently, obtaining a digitized copy of this old photograph (by TIGHAR or any other interested party) requires some substantial fee. Now we are talking contractual obligations and copyrights, this all sounds very commercial and personally I am somewhat turned off by the whole thing.

Finally, if it really requires the eye of a professional forensic photo analyst to interpret this photograph to the exclusion of all others, count me with the skeptics. This reminds me of the old tale, The Emperor's New Clothes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes).

I hope I have not offended anyone either but that is exactly how I see it.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Shannon Council on March 28, 2012, 07:06:43 PM
Finally, if it really requires the eye of a professional forensic photo analyst to interpret this photograph to the exclusion of all others, count me with the skeptics. This reminds me of the old tale, The Emperor's New Clothes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes).

I hope I have not offended anyone either but that is exactly how I see it.

I believe that since the photo does not immediately and clearly present itself to a layman as the landing gear of AE's Electra, it needed to be analyzed very carefully by professionals. Quoting from the TIGHAR Tracks Oct./Dec. 2011 issue about the hi resolution scan :

"The resulting image revealed the object to be more complex than was initially apparent – a tangle of debris rather than an intact structure. Forensic imaging specialist Jeff Glickman of Photek has been working to sort out and define the properties and characteristics
of the various components in the image."

Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Brad Beeching on March 28, 2012, 07:13:48 PM
Perhaps it's not only copywrite issues, but what was done to the photo by the boys at Langley. Maybe they are reluctant to show what they can do.

As an example, I once saw a photgraph of an NVA officer reading his watch. Nothing remarkable until you realize it was taken from 80,000 ft and 1500 mph .... Oh, did I mention it was 10:45 in the morning and the watch was made in China? If they can do that THEN, what in the world can they do NOW? Sorta makes you want to look up and wave!

Brad
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Heath Smith on March 28, 2012, 07:18:19 PM
Quote
Perhaps it's not only copywrite issues, but what was done to the photo by the boys at Langley. Maybe they are reluctant to show what they can do.

The High-Resolution image is not available to the public. We are not talking about the post processed files. Again, for a hefty fee you can apparently obtain a copy too. Just write the check for the right dollar amount.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Gary LaPook on March 29, 2012, 03:02:13 AM

A key to these images is the TIGHAR Tracks Oct. 2011 summary of Nessie's analysis, identifying that the "worm" type of landing gear on NR 16020 is consistent to what is identifiable in the photograph's components. The worm gear has the same, if a slightly larger, radius as the fully inflated tire.

LTM
The problem with that is that it does not have a worm type gear actuator system, it has a "jack screw" system, see in attached diagram labeled "retracting screw."

This means that there is nothing at the top of the landing gear strut that is round and that could be confused with a tire. So if "Nessie" is a gear strut with a tire at the top, wouldn't it just be easier to look for the airplane laying on its back just under the water's surface with one leg sticking up?
gl
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: John Ousterhout on March 29, 2012, 06:49:13 AM
GL,
As I recall reading here, Amelia's Lockheed did indeed use the worm-type actuation system.  I'll attempt to find the documentation.  Later models used the retracting screw system you mentioned.  I also recall someone showing Amelia the retracting screw system on a newer model, and her commenting that she wished her aircraft had it.  This makes me believe your manual is for the later version, not Amelias.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Bruce Thomas on March 29, 2012, 08:10:40 AM
GL,
As I recall reading here, Amelia's Lockheed did indeed use the worm-type actuation system.  I'll attempt to find the documentation.  Later models used the retracting screw system you mentioned.  I also recall someone showing Amelia the retracting screw system on a newer model, and her commenting that she wished her aircraft had it.  This makes me believe your manual is for the later version, not Amelias.
Back late last year in a spirited discussion around octane ratings, Gary LaPook posted (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,528.msg6842.html#msg6842) a document (TC590 (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=528.0;attach=343)) that (on the second page of the PDF) states the/a Lockheed Electra 10E (Amelia's?) was equipped with "Retracting landing gear, electric worm drive 12.5:1". 
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Tom Swearengen on March 29, 2012, 08:20:31 AM
Like this?
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Shannon Council on March 29, 2012, 11:54:43 AM
The problem with that is that it does not have a worm type gear actuator system, it has a "jack screw" system, see in attached diagram labeled "retracting screw."

I do not know enough about airplane parts or forensic photo analysis to really add any original thinking to this idea. I do know that I don't know enough and am simply trying to learn and figure out as I go.

But from logic, it seems like a binary decision : NR 16020 either had the worm type gear - or it did not - when it 'went into the drink', wherever in the Pacific Ocean that may be. The TIGHAR Tracks I've quoted from has a photo of Fred Noonan on page 7, working on the plane, with the caption:

"In Lae, New Guinea Fred Noonan assists with maintenance on the left engine propeller hub of NR16020. The bottom edge of the worm gear is clearly visible on the rear side of the left main landing gear strut."

Again, the Tracks issue talks in depth about how and why the worm gear was present on the plane when it took off from Lae and landed wherever; AE's plane was the last Electra manufactured with this setup, and barring a mid-flight landing gear overhaul to the newer, lighter  type, one would assume that the plane still had the worm gear when it landed wherever and however.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Don Dollinger on March 29, 2012, 03:47:30 PM
Quote
I do find it troubling that a photograph snapped by some poor sod in 1937 of a deserted remote island in the middle of the Pacific now has some intrinsic commercial value and is not made available to the public. Now, apparently, obtaining a digitized copy of this old photograph (by TIGHAR or any other interested party) requires some substantial fee. Now we are talking contractual obligations and copyrights, this all sounds very commercial and personally I am somewhat turned off by the whole thing.

commercial value...contractual obligations...

If it helps finance the next expedition, I can wait.

LTM,

Don
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Erik on March 29, 2012, 08:51:02 PM
"In Lae, New Guinea Fred Noonan assists with maintenance on the left engine propeller hub of NR16020. The bottom edge of the worm gear is clearly visible on the rear side of the left main landing gear strut."

A closer look worm gear or jack screw?

Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Gary LaPook on March 29, 2012, 09:39:57 PM
"In Lae, New Guinea Fred Noonan assists with maintenance on the left engine propeller hub of NR16020. The bottom edge of the worm gear is clearly visible on the rear side of the left main landing gear strut."

A closer look worm gear or jack screw?
Yep, it looks like there must be a worm gear that engages the geared arc that we can see in the photo. Now the reason we are discussing this is to see if the geared arc in the picture might be what we are seeing at the top of "Nessie." The problem is that the geared arc is not a complete circle, because the landing gear does not move though a full 360 degrees, but only through 90 degrees during the extension and retraction cycles. We can see that the arc in the photo is larger than the 90 degrees required but this must have something to do with where the motor and worm are positioned. We can't see the top of the arc but it is unlikely that it extended much further than we can see, maybe 120 degrees total, so it cannot look like a complete round tire. The other problem, which is also clear from the photo, is that the arc extends down along the back of the strut all the way down to the fork and is not mounted at the top of the strut so also would not look like "Nessie."

gl
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Bruce Thomas on March 30, 2012, 06:20:45 AM
The TIGHAR Tracks I've quoted from has a photo of Fred Noonan on page 7, working on the plane, with the caption:

"In Lae, New Guinea Fred Noonan assists with maintenance on the left engine propeller hub of NR16020. The bottom edge of the worm gear is clearly visible on the rear side of the left main landing gear strut."


Can your provide a link to that TIGHAR tracks or at least it's title so we can find it too.

gl

In his earlier postings on this thread (#19 (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,217.msg11743.html#msg11743), #26 (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,217.msg11787.html#msg11787)), Shannon ID'd the TIGHAR Tracks issue as being dated Oct/Dec 2011, and I infer his latest comment is to that issue as well.  Alas, none of the 2011 issues have been made available in the TIGHAR Tracks archives (http://tighar.org/wiki/TIGHAR_Tracks) on this website as of yet.  Individual TIGHAR members do have their own hardcopy issues, of course -- one of the advantages of being a card-carrying dues-paying member.   :)
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Monty Fowler on March 30, 2012, 08:33:09 AM
As Ric has noted many times, "Increasing vision is increasingly expensive." At the risk of sounding trite - which is not my intent - there's nothing stopping anyone on this forum, or anywhere else for that matter, from ponying up their own $$$$$ to get their own copy of the photo and do their own analysis. Since I don't have those kind of $$$$, I shovel what $$$$ I do have to the people I think will get the most bang for my buck - their initials are T I G H A R.

LTM, who trys to pick the winning ponies,

Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Tim Collins on March 30, 2012, 11:45:16 AM
Original hi-res can theoretically be ordered here:

http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/5807/imaging_orderform.pdf

Here's the reference to the Bevington photo album; however I don't know how to request a specific image:

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/blcas/bevington-er.html

While a hi res scan of the photo is great, but if I'm not mistaken I think that Ric et al were working from a hi res copy of the original negative. 
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Sheila Shigley on March 30, 2012, 01:45:21 PM
Original hi-res can theoretically be ordered here:

http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/5807/imaging_orderform.pdf

Here's the reference to the Bevington photo album; however I don't know how to request a specific image:

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/blcas/bevington-er.html

While a hi res scan of the photo is great, but if I'm not mistaken I think that Ric et al were working from a hi res copy of the original negative.

I believe that when visiting Bevington's home, they took a photo of one of his photos, and it was the negative from their photo-of-a-photo which was (re)scanned at some point; but isn't the recent discussion related to a re-scan of the original photo?

If they've indeed located the original negatives for Bevington's photo album, that would be outstanding!  If Oxford maintains Bevington's negatives along with the photo album, they don't mention it in the inventory; however, print or digital copies can generally be ordered from negatives in the Bodleian collections--so unless there's a special restriction on Bevington's items, the general public could pay for a copy/scan from the original negative.  I believe we are more likely discussing, though, a high(er)-res scan of the original photo.

But I imagine the final prize will be what they were able to then do with that re-scan.

I'm intrigued by Reuters' use of "undercarriage" (http://goo.gl/8dNpg) instead of the more-expected "landing gear" and secretly hope that means there's even more news coming (was only the "Nessie" photo re-scanned, or could there be a revelation from new scans of Bevington's other photos as well?), but it's all plenty exciting as-is.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Tim Collins on March 30, 2012, 02:26:26 PM
Maybe I was wrong on that. I thought I remembered mention of obtaining a copy of the negative itself. I'm sure it's mentioned somewhere around here.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Shannon Council on March 30, 2012, 03:34:46 PM
Can your provide a link to that TIGHAR tracks or at least it's title so we can find it too.

gl

In her earlier postings on this thread (#19 (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,217.msg11743.html#msg11743), #26 (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,217.msg11787.html#msg11787)), Shannon ID'd the TIGHAR Tracks issue as being dated Oct/Dec 2011, and I infer her latest comment is to that issue as well.  Alas, none of the 2011 issues have been made available in the TIGHAR Tracks archives (http://tighar.org/wiki/TIGHAR_Tracks) on this website as of yet.  Individual TIGHAR members do have their own hardcopy issues, of course -- one of the advantages of being a card-carrying dues-paying member.   :)

Gary : I received a .pdf file of the Tracks in question from Pat. She was out of the dead tree version. If you are a member ( sorry, I don't know if you are or not ) you could email her and request the same.

Bruce : She is a actually a He!  :o  Perhaps I should update my profile picture.

Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Bruce Thomas on March 30, 2012, 04:58:59 PM
Bruce : She is a actually a He!  :o  Perhaps I should update my profile picture.

Gulp!  Sorry, Shannon.  It must be Beeker's red hair in your profile photo that threw me off!   ::)
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on April 15, 2012, 10:25:10 AM
Breaking news from Ric Gillespie:
 
 "On April 26 Jeff Glickman and I will be at Rhodes House, University of Oxford to get a much better copy of the Bevington photo than we've had to work with to date. Back in 1992, Pat took copy-photos of Bevington's collection when we visited him at his retirement home in the south of England.  After Eric died, his papers and photos went to the Bodleian Library of Commonwealth and African Studies at Oxford.  In 2010, we asked the library to scan the image for us to get better resolution.  The best they could do was 600 dpi but that was a big improvement over the copy-photo.  Now we've made arrangements for Jeff to get the best image possible with the best available technology.  Our hope is that, with a better image, we can show the public what the experts have been seeing.  It's one thing to ask people to "take our word for it" that the blob in the photo is the wreckage of an Electra land gear. It's another to be able to show them the tire, the mud flap, the strut, the worm gear, etc.  Of course, a better image may show the object to be an abandoned cement mixer, but that's a risk we'll take.
 
 "Whatever we're able to get from the high-resolution image will be revealed for the first time at Jeff's forensic imaging presentation at Earhart Search 75.  Feel free to mention all of this when promoting the symposium (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,605.msg12465.html#msg12465)."
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on April 15, 2012, 01:07:00 PM
(http://)
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Heath Smith on April 15, 2012, 01:57:40 PM
Is the cement mixer a joke? How would there be a cement mixer on Gardner in 1938?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Bruce Thomas on April 15, 2012, 02:04:46 PM
Is the cement mixture a joke?
No, but this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob6Y6D9BuM4) is!   :D
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Chris Johnson on April 15, 2012, 02:24:38 PM
Is the cement mixture a joke? How would there be a cement mixer on Gardner in 1938?

Thanks.

Jack Kimo (sp) had a cement mixer, he used it to build the water cisturn on the island!!!!!

Unfortunatly it was after Nessie was taken.

Have read that it travelled on a raft between islands pulled by canoes.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on April 26, 2012, 12:10:40 PM
News from Ric:

This morning at Rhodes House Library, Oxford University, Jeff Glickman used a new Nikon D800 Digital SLR camera with a 400mm 40mm macro lens and a ring light to acquire a high-resolution image of the Bevington Photo. The image we have now is much better than the 600 dpi scan the library did for us in 2010.

Jeff will need to apply some special techniques to extract more information from the image after he gets home but at this point we already know:

- There are no surprises, and that is very good. The visible structures continue to appear consistent with wreckage of the Electra's main landing gear assembly.

- We have considerably more information than we had before. How much more remains to be seen, but our mission here is a success.

We had great cooperation from the university.  Mark Smith videoed the whole pains-taking operation. All three of us will be home by tomorrow evening.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Irvine John Donald on May 03, 2012, 01:38:43 AM
I would like to know how Jeff G got his hands on the new Nikon D800.  So new to the market I still can't get one here in Canada. LOL
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Tom Swearengen on May 03, 2012, 07:53:14 AM
IRV----gotta have connections------State Dept, TIGHAR, Ballard------pretty good horsepower!
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Gary LaPook on May 03, 2012, 06:53:17 PM
On the news last night there was a segment on the real "Nessie" the one found in Loch Ness because yesterday was the 79th anniversary of the first spotting of "Nessie" which started the whole "Loch Ness Monster" story and tourist attraction. It all started in 1933, just four years before the Gardner island "Nessie" adventure.

From Wikipedia:

"The term "monster" was reportedly applied for the first time to the creature on 2 May 1933 by Alex Campbell, the water bailiff for Loch Ness and a part-time journalist, in a report in the Inverness Courier. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_Ness_Monster)[6][7][8]"

gl
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Irvine John Donald on May 03, 2012, 10:34:53 PM
Thanks Gary for that tantalizing news item. I don't know who coined the Gardner photo the "Nessie photo" but it's very appropriate for the similarity in vague imagery, mystery, water and hunt. Perhaps the originating TIGHAR could announce him or herslf to take a congratulatory bow?
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Gary LaPook on May 03, 2012, 11:39:42 PM
Breaking news from Ric Gillespie:
 
 "On April 26 Jeff Glickman and I will be at Rhodes House, University of Oxford to get a much better copy of the Bevington photo than we've had to work with to date. Back in 1992, Pat took copy-photos of Bevington's collection when we visited him at his retirement home in the south of England.  After Eric died, his papers and photos went to the Bodleian Library of Commonwealth and African Studies at Oxford.  In 2010, we asked the library to scan the image for us to get better resolution.  The best they could do was 600 dpi but that was a big improvement over the copy-photo.  Now we've made arrangements for Jeff to get the best image possible with the best available technology.  Our hope is that, with a better image, we can show the public what the experts have been seeing.  It's one thing to ask people to "take our word for it" that the blob in the photo is the wreckage of an Electra land gear. It's another to be able to show them the tire, the mud flap, the strut, the worm gear, etc.  Of course, a better image may show the object to be an abandoned cement mixer, but that's a risk we'll take.
 
 "Whatever we're able to get from the high-resolution image will be revealed for the first time at Jeff's forensic imaging presentation at Earhart Search 75.  Feel free to mention all of this when promoting the symposium (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,605.msg12465.html#msg12465)."
If Ric has only now gotten a high resolution copy of the "Nessie" photo it raises the question of what was the quality of the photo used by the State Department?

gl
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Ted G Campbell on May 04, 2012, 10:47:30 AM
What I am hoping for is the new photo has enough detail to enable triangulation to the actual "Nessie" location.
Ted Campbell
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Tom Swearengen on May 04, 2012, 11:29:05 AM
Ted----I hope you are right, and I would bet that has already been done. But 75 years later? Its either on the reef as Richie and Jeff H. have pointed out, or on the bottom with the larger parts of the Electra. Yeah----I'm a believer.
Tom
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on May 04, 2012, 11:52:38 AM
I wouldn't like to say that whatever is on the reef slope is an Electra at this stage Tom. It's aircraft but then, there were a lot of them about in the Pacific during WW2. Only time will tell which type it is. At least the opportunity to get CLEAR images is approaching.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Tom Swearengen on May 04, 2012, 12:37:26 PM
Jeff----I brought up the question several times over the past couple of years. That question would be what aircraft are known to be missing in the Phoenix area? The answer I've always gotten was none.
Now---we obviously dont know about the Japanese activity before of during the war, although I'd think that if there were a Japanese seaplane in the area, someone would have known about it.
Yes---it will be interesting once some of the identifiable wreckage is brought up and examined. I certainly hope it isnt a seaplane, but that possiblity does exsists.

Hum another thought. If there were a carrier om the vicinity that pushed overboard a damaged plane-------it 'could 'have drifted to Niku. Hope not, of course, but leaving all options opened until we get the facts.
Tom
 
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on May 04, 2012, 01:30:03 PM
Yes I agree Tom, it would be helpful to know of all aircraft lost/missing in the area instead of all aircraft reported lost/missing.
I'm not sure if Tighar have permission to recover anything (if found) as it is in the Phoenix islands marine reserve. That would need the blessing of the Republic of Kiribati government as I understand it, could be wrong, not sure. Any idea Tom?
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Bruce Thomas on May 04, 2012, 01:32:21 PM
Hum another thought. If there were a carrier om the vicinity that pushed overboard a damaged plane-------it 'could 'have drifted to Niku. Hope not, of course, but leaving all options opened until we get the facts.
Tom

OMG!  Might it be an aircraft pushed off USS Constellation as it steamed by?    ;)
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on May 04, 2012, 02:04:39 PM
Stranger things have happened Bruce ;)

I don't think the US navy used twin engined planes from their carriers (apart from the Doolitle raid) until the 1950's.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on May 04, 2012, 06:44:06 PM
Jeff----I brought up the question several times over the past couple of years. That question would be what aircraft are known to be missing in the Phoenix area? The answer I've always gotten was none.

Do you mean to say that this article (http://tighar.org/wiki/Aircraft_lost_in_the_vicinity_of_Nikumaroro) didn't answer your question?
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on May 05, 2012, 04:17:44 AM
Jeff----I brought up the question several times over the past couple of years. That question would be what aircraft are known to be missing in the Phoenix area? The answer I've always gotten was none.

Do you mean to say that this article (http://tighar.org/wiki/Aircraft_lost_in_the_vicinity_of_Nikumaroro) didn't answer your question?
Partially Marty. The part that worries me is 'There are no known losses' which is the point I was trying to make. I am sure the list is as comprehensive as it can be but, sometimes there's a fly in the ointment (not Dr Berrys freckle cream) :)
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on May 05, 2012, 07:53:01 AM
The part that worries me is 'There are no known losses' which is the point I was trying to make. I am sure the list is as comprehensive as it can be but, sometimes there's a fly in the ointment (not Dr Berrys freckle cream) :)

We can't list unknown losses.

By definition, "unknown losses" means "losses not known to have happened."

Prior to the outbreak of the war, there were no aircraft routinely flying in the vicinity.

The article on aircraft known to have been lost near Niku (http://tighar.org/wiki/Aircraft_lost_in_the_vicinity_of_Nikumaroro) comes from the Pacific theater.  It is as complete as we know how to make it.  As with the article on sextant numbers, if you find another lost aircraft that belongs on the list, I'd be happy to add to the list.  But if your question is, "Have you checked all of the sources that you don't know about?", the answer is "No."
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Monty Fowler on May 10, 2012, 06:04:00 PM
But if your question is, "Have you checked all of the sources that you don't know about?", the answer is "No."

Sheesh, for a minute there I thought I'd wandered into the laybrinth known as the Federal Acquisition Regulations, which are a special kind of *cough* hell, with no known logical exit.

LTM, who believes in breadcrumb trails,

Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Heath Smith on May 11, 2012, 09:48:33 PM
For those of you that have access to the higher resolution images there is something interesting to the right of "Nessie" and it is appears to be a part of the image and not a defect on the print.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on May 14, 2012, 05:01:34 AM
On April 26 (three weeks ago!) Jeff Glickman and Martin Moleski were at Rhodes House, University of Oxford, to "get a much better copy of the Bevington photo". Any news about Nessie?
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Tom Swearengen on May 14, 2012, 05:32:51 AM
Marty----My bust---I overlooked that article on aircraft losses that you posted. There are 6 reference to aircraft NOT at Canton Island that were lost. Some were not near Gardner/Niku---some say 'exact location unknown'. I'll get back to you guys after some 'cyphering'
Tom
 
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Tom Swearengen on May 14, 2012, 07:11:59 AM
Ok---out of the 6 that went down at sea, only 1 is location unknown. Others were too far from Niku to be considered, even if the currrents were to have carried it to the islands.  Thinking that a submerged aircraft will drift several hundred mile and ens up on the reef at Niku is a STRETCH, even for me. PBM-3D, BU # 45236 "forced landing at sea, flooded and sank in high seas" is the only possiblity on THIS list that is really unaccounted for. 2 H8K Kawanishi's shot down were inthe vicinity of Howland and Baker, which makes them 350+ miles to the north west. One other, a PBJ, was inroute Canton to Samoa, and would have been 175 off course west to have been near Niku. This narrows down the list of what we KNOW. Not if any carriers off loaded aircraft into the ocean. Not any other Japaneese aircraft not accounted for.
This get tricky---so the Niku expedition will tell us if it is the Electra, or a seaplane.
tom
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on May 14, 2012, 07:57:53 AM
On April 26 (three weeks ago!) Jeff Glickman and Martin Moleski were at Rhodes House, University of Oxford, to "get a much better copy of the Bevington photo". Any news about Nessie?

Small correction: it was Ric Gillespie who accompanied Jeff to Oxford.  I would have loved to have gone on that expedition, but I wasn't invited and I couldn't have accepted an invitation.  I teach for a living, and certainly could not have afforded the time for the trip.   :(
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on May 14, 2012, 08:03:59 AM
Good analysis Tom. I would add that the object in Eric Bevingtons photograph 'Nessie' was there in October 1937, when the picture was taken. Which pre-dates WW2 by a good few years. So if that object has anything to do with what is on the reef slope at 300 metres it is unlikely to be WW2 vintage.
I searched for pre-1940 recorded missing aircraft in the Pacific area and ended up clutching at straws to find anything remotley close to Gardner (1000 miles plus, plus, plus).
Consequently, if it has nothing to do with what's on the reef at 300 metres then anything post 1937 comes into play but, again, there's not much recorded as missing in that area, or within range of.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Tom Swearengen on May 14, 2012, 11:09:59 AM
Jeff---I found the same thing. As our adventurers pre date WWII by 4 years, and Nessie and whatever is there 3 monts after the disappearance, it seems by logical deducttion that if it is NOT related to the Norwich City, it 'might' be from the Electra. If, and only if, The Electra landed on the reef as we think, and Nessie is in the spot that we think.  At this point I dont see any other conclusion. The underwater search on Niku VII will tell us one way or the other.
Thoughts?
Tom
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Tom Swearengen on May 14, 2012, 12:34:36 PM
Well Nessie is NOT part of a Martin Mariner, PBM-3D that was lost. First off---the first ever flight was in October of 1939, and this particular aircraft was lost in September, 1944. So, unless there was a time warp, it is impossible for Nessie to have been from this aircraft, since the Nessie pic was made in October of 1937, 2 years before the first ever flight.

That is NOT to say that some of the suspected wreckage on the reef isnt military. However, in my simple mind----i cant see it being other than the Electra.
Tom
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Jeff Victor Hayden on May 14, 2012, 01:17:51 PM
I haven't seen anything that points to it being a warbird Tom. No armaments, weapon mounts, weapons, ammo, nothing. It has 2 engines but, one on each wing so, that rules out a PBY cat. The only way around the 2 engine theory is to theorise it was a single engined Blohm Voss 141, unlikely by miles.
(http://)
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Tom Swearengen on May 14, 2012, 02:16:55 PM
I havent either Jeff, unless the PBM (#45236) that went down in the phoenix group, ended up on the reef slope at Niku. Records indicate the crew was rescued by the  Liberty ship James P Doty Sept 5, 1944. Captains log states that the mishap occured at 06*25' S, 176*25'W or about 175 miles SW of Gardner on a 228* heading. That would be a long way for a plane to drift, but I guess since it was a Martin Mariner, it might be possible with enough currents, and enough bouyancy to make it. A real stretch, but well see in July.

Tom
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Brad Beeching on May 14, 2012, 04:46:02 PM
The PBM is out as well fella's... the Martin PBM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_PBM_Mariner) prototype was only a drawing in 1937. First flight was 1939...

PBY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_PBY_Catalina) First Flight: 1935

P2Y (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_P2Y) First Flight: 1929

Don't know of any lost in mid-1937

Hope this helps
Brad
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: John Ousterhout on May 14, 2012, 07:03:57 PM
The only object I've seen on a rocky beech that even reminds me of the Nessie photo is a tree trunk washed up at Crescent Beech I saw in the 1960's.  The crown was submerged, and the roots stuck up above the low-tide line.  Roots can have almost any imaginable shape, and floating trees were a noted hazard to navigation in the south Pacific during WWII, damaging many PT boats.  I can't imagine any evidence of a stranded tree would be left.  Then again, Richie's enhanced version of Nessie doesn't look like a root ball to me.
Then again, I have difficulty imagining how an Electra landing gear could be left pointing vertically, when it would have had an engine mount attached to one side, and a wing to the other side, and a fat tire on the bottom with a couple of big bearings intended to allow the gear and wheel to pivot independantly.  I find all aspects of Nessie completely intriguing, and long to learn more.
Note that I'm also prepared to be disappointed.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: richie conroy on May 20, 2012, 04:13:12 PM
obviously we can't be sure yet, if it is the electra landing gear

however my reasoning to think, if it is the landing gear then the picture i have attached mat show why its upright ?

if the electra, nose cone was pointing towards beach

an a wave as it's receding snapped the plane from the strut, then maybe it was the mud guard keeping it upright ?

can i just add this is my own explanation to nessie not Tighar's thanks

Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Greg Daspit on May 20, 2012, 05:37:02 PM
One reason it may be upright is the gear was tied to a stake to keep the plane from"slipping"

Maybe they built ramps from shipwreck debris to get the prop off the water more and then staked it to the ramp or found the highest point they could and drove up on it and staked it down.

Or they improvised a jack, again from shipwreck debris, to get the props up higher and transmit longer. The jack still holding it up.

I don't believe it snagged on landing. If it did it, I can't see how it would be upright.

Some previous diagrams showed the wheel headed into the island like it was taxiing(sp)? or it fell into a pothole when it was pulled out to sea, but it seems to high for that.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Greg Daspit on May 20, 2012, 05:48:59 PM
One way to jack up the wheel is to find a post like a steel pipe or rod. One with holes or jaged edges would be better. Put it next to the wheel strut. Lever(jack up) up the wheel with longer lever (again salvaged from the shipwreck). Then tie the wheel strut to the post. The post may have been driven into the coral a little when loaded. Now you have more prop clearance to transmit longer and the jack post would explain your image.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Brad Beeching on May 20, 2012, 06:47:08 PM
That is alot of work for two people, both suffering injuries (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Brandenburg/signalcatalog2.html#ID30800LE) with limited water, limited food, in equatorial heat? Now try it with heavy pipe long enough to get enough mechanical advantage to lift the heaviest part of the airplane, all the while fighting an increasingly rising surf on a slippery, uneven coral reef.  Could they have staked it? thats plausable, could they have tied it off with rope somehow? It's plausable. I just can't see two people in this situation, in the time available to them, doing anything much more than we suspect they did. Make radio calls and when that didn't appear to work, transport whatever they could salvage to the beach.

Brad
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Greg Daspit on May 20, 2012, 08:06:12 PM
"Mabel did not come forward with her story until 1990, and some of her recollections are not consistent with the historical record".
I'm not so sure they were incapable of doing work based on what someone remembered 53 years later. It is not known when Betty's description of injuries was made. It could have been on the 5th Day. Fred "complained of his head" could simply be a headache or dehydration on the 5th day.
The water supply may have been limited but from the Radio messages they lived for 5 days minimum?
Maybe they did the work on the 3rd day when they still had strength. I don't think we should underestimate that they could have used enginuity to get work done with limited effort. A lightweight pole could lever up 3000 lbs. or they simply found an actual jack on the ship. Anyway that was just one explaination. They could simply have drove up to a high point and staked it down.  I was just offering a few possibilities to explain how high up the wheel in the image looks. Of course assuming it is a wheel right side up. One image I saw looked like the wheel was upside down.
Title: Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
Post by: Bruce Thomas on May 21, 2012, 02:28:17 PM
In another 10 days, at the Earhart75 Symposium, I hope to see the results of whatever it is that Jeff Glickman is so carefully taking a picture of in the photo album shown here (http://woodinville.patch.com/articles/earhart-research-puts-glickman-on-the-national-map#photo-9934119).