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Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Randy Conrad on August 01, 2020, 07:44:07 AM

Title: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Conrad on August 01, 2020, 07:44:07 AM
Several weeks ago while I was down in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma stopped in the Ninety-Nines Museum at the airport, and had a chance to look around. What was interesting were these two maps. I don't know if Tighar has a set of these in their archives, but thought it was interesting to look at.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Conrad on August 01, 2020, 07:48:24 AM
Navigational Chart Part Two
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Conrad on August 01, 2020, 07:51:05 AM
Navigational Chart Part Three
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 01, 2020, 08:22:53 AM
Thanks Randy. I didn't know the 99s had the original charts.  The Howland-Lae chart is from the first world flight attempt. The Honolulu- Oakland chart is from Earhart's 1935 Pacific flight.
It's interesting that the Howard-Lae chart still exists.  It means she didn't take it with her for reference on the second attempt.  Also notice, Baker and the Phoenix Group are not shown.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Conrad on August 01, 2020, 08:51:50 AM
Ric,
    While I was down there, a staff member who was in charge of the museum at the time told me that if we are in need of maps, charts, or anything else that we might need to look for they could help search for it in their archives. The museum manager, Shaylyn Sawyer...was out for the day and still waiting for her reply email on a few questions I had at the time. She can be contacted at 405-685-9990, fax# 405-685-7985. Email address is museum@ninety-nines.org.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 01, 2020, 09:01:30 AM
Thanks Randy.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Conrad on August 07, 2020, 08:33:59 PM
Ric,

 Do we have a copy of the second World Flight attempt map in Tighar's possession? Curious to see what difference there is between the two maps. Let me know...thanks!
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 08, 2020, 07:15:15 AM
Do we have a copy of the second World Flight attempt map in Tighar's possession? Curious to see what difference there is between the two maps. Let me know...thanks!

There is no mention of Williams preparing a map for the second attempt, but if he did she would probably have taken it with her.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Conrad on August 09, 2020, 11:31:07 PM
Ric....am I correct on this...but isn't this map supposed to be going the other direction as per her first attempt itinerary. Basically, wandering what the deal is with this map...when she has arrows going into two different directions. Curious to know...thanks
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 10, 2020, 07:54:52 AM
Ric....am I correct on this...but isn't this map supposed to be going the other direction as per her first attempt itinerary.

No.  The map is from Howland to Lae, which is what she planned to do on the first attempt. 

Basically, wandering what the deal is with this map...when she has arrows going into two different directions. Curious to know...thanks

I don't know why Williams also showed reciprocal headings. The map is dated February 9, 1937 - before the first attempt. At that time there was no thought of possibly doing the world flight west to east.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on August 11, 2020, 09:58:35 AM
Interesting that the position of Howland on Williams' chart is the inaccurate location, some 6nm west of the position I get from Google Earth.  Seems that if this same approach was used on the second attempt, Howland's position would have been similarly mis-plotted.  I know this has been discussed in the past, but I'm not sure it was a result of examining this chart, or some other source.  In any case, I think this is a pretty good indication that they did not have the correct position for Howland.

Thanks to Chris Kennedy for bringing this to my attention.  Chris was a member of several of the early NIKU Expeditions.

LTM
Andrew
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 11, 2020, 03:31:19 PM
Howland's official location is now
0° 48′ 25.84″ N, 176° 36′ 59.48″ W

This is what Randy Jacobson had to say on the subject:

"As for the erroneous Howland position, Bill Miller, when he first worked the

Line Islands (Howland, Baker, and Jarvis) colonization scheme in 1935/36,

was the one who reported to the CG and US Navy the revised position.

Richard Black, his successor, also knew of the revised positions.  Bill

Miller was AE's technical liason with the US Gov't for planning the first

flight.  I find it absolutely inconceivable (but undocumented) that he did

not provide her with the revised position.  It was only "classified" until

such time as the US Hydrographic Office could update their charts, which was

done in 1938.  It was not a true secret or classified piece of information

in the strict sense of the word."

And yet, Miller's April 5, 1935 report to the Treasury Dept. (Coast Guard) on Howland Island,  written at sea en route to Baker Island having just left Howland, gives the island's position as 0° 49' N  176° 43' W - the erroneous position used by Williams. The correction must have come later.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Jacobson on August 12, 2020, 05:03:16 AM
Hmmm...Ric is correct.  I don't find the corrected Howland position in any of the first 4 equatorial island cruise reports.  As I'm going through the reports now, I'll let you know when I find the revised position. 

Found it.  A letter dated 24 Oct 1935 from CDR Darby, USCGC Itasca, to the USN Hydrographic Office, gives the revised Itasca fix.  This was found in the NARA Hydrographic Office files, not in the cruise reports.

It is possible, but improbable, that the captain of the Itasca did not provide that information to Miller, for those inclined towards conspiracy theories.  (I hope QAnon is reading this forum...). 

Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 12, 2020, 08:04:13 AM
Hmmm...Ric is correct.   

There's a first time for everything.

Found it.  A letter dated 24 Oct 1935 from CDR Darby, USCGC Itasca, to the USN Hydrographic Office, gives the revised Itasca fix.

Good.

It is possible, but improbable, that the captain of the Itasca did not provide that information to Miller, for those inclined towards conspiracy theories.  (I hope QAnon is reading this forum...).

Ahh, but Itasca was not tasked with supporting Earhart's first attempt, so Darcy would not be in communication with Miller.  Miller would be coordinating with USCG Shoshone.  By the time of the second world flight attempt, Miller was out of the picture, transferred to Australia. Richard Black was in charge of U.S. Government support of Earhart.  He was aboard Shoshone in March and was also aboard Itasca in July.  On May 15, 1937 Black sent the attached memorandum to "Whom it may concern." (NR16020 came out of the repair shop on May 19.)  Unfortunately there is no distribution list of who got the memo, but it's hard to believe that the guy in charge of supporting Earhart did not think it would be a good idea to let her know the island was not where she thought it was.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Jacobson on August 12, 2020, 01:02:21 PM
The Itasca fixes were made during the September 1935 cruise, when Miller was aboard.  He was also on the next two cruises.  He should (aha!  we're not supposed to use a should have/could have, are we??) have had the new information.  There was no reason for Itasca to be assigned for the next cruise, so CDR Darby should have relayed it to Miller; he certainly relayed it to his colleagues at the CG HQ in Honolulu. 

Now whether Miller retained the information of the revised location somewhere in his files and relayed it to Earhart is another story.  Certainly, he could have requested that information from the CG for her had he not retained a copy.  Hmmm...lots of coulds/shoulds, isn't there? 

In hindsight, the fact that AE couldn't see Howland when she was supposed to even if she was 6 miles off from the true position of Howland seems to me not the significant factor here.  Remember, even ships had no difficulties finding the island and they definitely didn't have the proper position of the island. 

The biggest failure, in my opinion, was that AE didn't plan to arrive at Howland an hour or so before sunrise, where a bonfire on land and/or search lights on the Itasca could help guide her to the island.  It is much easier to see something at night with lights on the ground/water surface than during the day with sun glare, clouds, etc. impeding visibility.  When recovering gear from the ocean depths or bottom, we always planned for a night recovery specifically for this reason (the object had a pressure-sensitive strobe lamp).  We could see a good 10 miles from ship with a strobe in the water at night but hardly 500 yards looking during the day. 
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 12, 2020, 04:05:28 PM
Now whether Miller retained the information of the revised location somewhere in his files and relayed it to Earhart is another story.  Certainly, he could have requested that information from the CG for her had he not retained a copy.  Hmmm...lots of coulds/shoulds, isn't there? 

Forget Miller.  Black is the one who "could have,"should have" and, indeed, may have ("To whom it may concern...") informed her.

In hindsight, the fact that AE couldn't see Howland when she was supposed to even if she was 6 miles off from the true position of Howland seems to me not the significant factor here.  Remember, even ships had no difficulties finding the island and they definitely didn't have the proper position of the island. 

Agreed. In our analysis, Earhart was new within 100 miles of Howland.

The biggest failure, in my opinion, was that AE didn't plan to arrive at Howland an hour or so before sunrise, where a bonfire on land and/or search lights on the Itasca could help guide her to the island.

Bonfires and search lights wouldn't help her if she 100 miles away. The biggest failure was her inability to operate her RDF.  She had the equipment necessary to find the island.  She just didn't know how to use it.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Jacobson on August 12, 2020, 05:52:14 PM
Now whether Miller retained the information of the revised location somewhere in his files and relayed it to Earhart is another story.  Certainly, he could have requested that information from the CG for her had he not retained a copy.  Hmmm...lots of coulds/shoulds, isn't there? 

Forget Miller.  Black is the one who "could have,"should have" and, indeed, may have ("To whom it may concern...") informed her.

In hindsight, the fact that AE couldn't see Howland when she was supposed to even if she was 6 miles off from the true position of Howland seems to me not the significant factor here.  Remember, even ships had no difficulties finding the island and they definitely didn't have the proper position of the island. 

Agreed. In our analysis, Earhart was new  huh?  Nowwhere?within 100 miles of Howland.

The biggest failure, in my opinion, was that AE didn't plan to arrive at Howland an hour or so before sunrise, where a bonfire on land and/or search lights on the Itasca could help guide her to the island.

Bonfires and search lights wouldn't help her if she 100 miles away. The biggest failure was her inability to operate her RDF.  She had the equipment necessary to find the island.  She just didn't know how to use it.
If she had known there were to be lights before dawn and she couldn't see them when she was supposed to, then she would know that she wasn't close at all.  She relied upon Noonan and RDF to get her within visual range: aerial navigation good to 10 miles and RDF as a backup, neither of which panned out.  She needed yet another alternative to finding the island.

Howland was her only destination that was a small target, no other land mass nearby, and no city or infrastructure there to help guide her with lights and reliable radio beacons.  Howland might have worked if she went W to E, as there would be plenty of fuel reserves to search for the island if not found quickly.  Her reliance on Noonan and aerial navigation was overly optimistic and reliance on a technology that she had not mastered to date was pure hubris, particularly by being near her fuel limitations IMHO.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Jacobson on August 12, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Oh, and Miller was responsible for her first flight attempt: the destination after Honolulu was Howland.  If he didn't give her the correct location (if he knew of it) of Howland, then shame on him.  I don't place the blame on Black.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 13, 2020, 08:13:45 AM
  She relied upon Noonan and RDF to get her within visual range:

Yes.

aerial navigation good to 10 miles and RDF as a backup, neither of which panned out. 

No.  RDF was not a backup. It was the primary means of finding the island once they were within radio range.  It was never the plan for Noonan to find the island. They were using the proven Pan Am system.  DR and celestial to get within a few hundred miles and then RDF for the approach.

She needed yet another alternative to finding the island.

Bonfires and searchlights only work if you're within a few miles.

Howland might have worked if she went W to E, as there would be plenty of fuel reserves to search for the island if not found quickly.

You mean E to W.  Going from Honolulu to Howland might have worked because Manning knew how to use the Bendix RDF.

  Her reliance on Noonan and aerial navigation was overly optimistic and reliance on a technology that she had not mastered to date was pure hubris, particularly by being near her fuel limitations IMHO.

She had the standard 20% fuel reserve.  Her abilities were simply not up to the challenge.  E to W might have worked but she was not yet up to making the heavy takeoff and the wreck in Hawaii cost her the navigator who understood the radio. She didn't know enough to replace him with someone who did.  By the time she got to Lae she could handle a heavy takeoff (barely) but she didn't know how to operate the one piece of equipment her life depended upon.  She took off anyway despite never having been able to get the RDF to work. 
Her fundamental and fatal mistake was attempting a world flight in the first place.  She had always pushed herself beyond her ability, trusting to luck and believing she could substitute courage for competence.  She got away with it for five years (1932- 1937), but her luck eventually ran out.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Conrad on August 13, 2020, 11:43:45 PM
Ric, Andrew, and Randy....

 When I first saw this navigational chart...I was in question about Williams plotting out two different courses on this map. One going from Howland Island to Lae, New Guinea and the other going from Port Moresby to south of Howland Island. Was this mainly used as a back up plan in case she had to turn around and go back or do these marking indicate something else. Very curious to know. Also, in relation to what Noonan knew about their location, one wanders how much knowledge he had about the charts. If the charts he were using from Pan American...one might speculate that these would be accurate and precise. As a navigator, you would assume that he's been over these waters before...which something tells me he has. Also, with Noonan's knowledge of using the sextant, would he be able to tell the difference in position from the map to the sextant? Say for example the 6 mile difference from Williams map to the current location as noted on Google?
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Jacobson on August 14, 2020, 03:45:39 AM
I believe the Port Moresby line simply showed the reciprocal course and magnetic headings appropriate to that course.  Why a reciprocal course?  Perhaps for RDF purposes or if she needed to return. 
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 14, 2020, 07:45:30 AM
I believe the Port Moresby line simply showed the reciprocal course and magnetic headings appropriate to that course.  Why a reciprocal course?  Perhaps for RDF purposes or if she needed to return.

I agree.  A course from Port Moresby would have different headings.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Jacobson on August 23, 2020, 10:19:57 AM
While reading the Itasca Cruise Report from August, 1936 as written by William T. Miller, he states the following:

A series of star and sun sights were taken and the position of the island was found to be different than that published by the Navy Hydrographic Office on chart No. 1198.  The latitude of the island is the same, but the longitude position as found by Lieut. Swanston was about five miles to the eastward of the position on Chart No. 1198.  When the ship's officers complete their survey, a copy of their report will be forwarded to the Department of Interior.

This confirms that Miller knew of the revised position of Howland prior to Earhart's two attempts to reach Howland.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 23, 2020, 10:26:36 AM
August of 1936 was well before Miller became in involved with Earhart.  She didn't consider using Howland until December.  Miller was intimately involved in setting up the Pacific portion of the first world flight attempt. It's hard to believe he didn't clue up Earhart or Manning as to where the island was - and yet Clarence Williams had it wrong.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Jim Zanella on August 24, 2020, 08:45:44 PM
I wonder how magnetic variation (mag var) played into this? It would be interesting to see the magnetic variation along the path to Howland in 1937.
Did she have a form of DGs (directional gyros) or just a whiskey compass?
Jim
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Jacobson on August 25, 2020, 06:19:27 AM
Magnetic variation: I verified the charts against historical values in 1937, and they were accurate to within a degree.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 25, 2020, 07:56:55 AM
The magnetic variation for different segments of the flight from lae to Howland is shown on the chart Randy Conrad posted at the begging of this thread.
At Lae the variation was 6° E, at longitude 160° E the variation was 7° 3', at longitude 170° E the variation was 9° E and remained that way all the way to Howland.

Earhart had a DG as part of her Sperry Gyropilot autopilot.  Like all DGs, it had to be periodically corrected for precession.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Conrad on August 27, 2020, 04:40:31 AM
in relation to what Randy Jacobson said...something isn't making sense. If Itasca is able to reach Howland Island...then they must have the right coordinates. We know now that someone literally messed up with giving the wrong information to Amelia and Fred to reach Howland Island via strip map coordinates. Again lack of knowledge on someone's part. Also, trying to understand Fred Noonan on this part too. Fred had to know that his coordinates were off slightly if he used the sextant and his navigational skills to reach Howland Island. He's a navigator for pete sakes. He had to know something. This Pan Am system...how trustworthy was that? Then it must be off by 6 miles too. Anyway, with what you wrote Ric the other day in relation to the strip map in the 99's museum in Oklahoma City. My question is how long would it have taken to reach the 157/337 coordinates had she been off by 6 miles and how many miles would that be? I guess why I ask is that I'm trying to establish some form of a timeline that it would take her to reach Niku. Also, I noticed something the other night on one of Amelia's pictures on the net. Kinda curious...But, she is in her living room on the floor looking at her maps. She has a map tube laying off to the side of her. Where would she keep her maps in the cockpit, and how would they use them if they were that big?
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 27, 2020, 07:40:58 AM
If Itasca is able to reach Howland Island...then they must have the right coordinates.

Yes.

We know now that someone literally messed up with giving the wrong information to Amelia and Fred to reach Howland Island via strip map coordinates.

We know that Clarence Williams had the old, incorrect coordinates for Howard. We also know Amelia did not have the strip map with the wrong coordinates with her. We do not know if Amelia and Fred had the correct coordinates for the island.

Fred had to know that his coordinates were off slightly if he used the sextant and his navigational skills to reach Howland Island. He's a navigator for pete sakes. He had to know something.

How would he know that if he was not told?

This Pan Am system...how trustworthy was that? Then it must be off by 6 miles too.

Howard was not part of the Pan Am system.

My question is how long would it have taken to reach the 157/337 coordinates had she been off by 6 miles and how many miles would that be?

It would be 6 miles further.  At 130 knots it would take 13 minutes.

I guess why I ask is that I'm trying to establish some form of a timeline that it would take her to reach Niku.

That would depend upon where they hit the LOP and how fast they were going when they explored up and down the line.  Those are unknowns.

Also, I noticed something the other night on one of Amelia's pictures on the net. Kinda curious...But, she is in her living room on the floor looking at her maps. She has a map tube laying off to the side of her. Where would she keep her maps in the cockpit, and how would they use them if they were that big?

Using big maps in the cockpit would be awkward.  That's why there was a navigation table in the back, assuming it was still there for the second attempt.  If not, Noonan could spread a map out on the platform that covered the fuselage fuel tanks.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 30, 2020, 01:28:47 PM

My question is how long would it have taken to reach the 157/337 coordinates had she been off by 6 miles and how many miles would that be?

It would be 6 miles further.  At 130 knots it would take 13 minutes.

I screwed that up (of course).  It would take 2.77 minutes in zero wind.
Thanks to Dave Billings for the correction.
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Randy Conrad on September 05, 2020, 12:08:53 PM
Ric....Was Clarence Williams in charge of drawing up the entire map layouts of the World Flight or just the map from Howland to Lae or visa versa? If we know now that they were off by 6-7 miles via bad coordinates on map....how do we know that they weren't off on their coordinates on the other maps or points of interest. Has anyone checked into that?
Title: Re: Navigational Charts of Lae to Howland @ Oakland to Hawaii
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 05, 2020, 02:18:53 PM
As far as I know, Clarence Williams drew maps for the entire world flight.  He had the wrong coordinates for Howland because the sources he used had the wrong coordinates.  He might have had outdated coordinates for other places but it doesn't matter.  They didn't use his charts.