TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Ric Gillespie on May 01, 2017, 12:28:50 PM
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Okay, this is a tough one.
We're trying to get a good measurement for the length of Amelia's arms for comparison to the castaway bones. We hoped that measuring the sleeves on the jacket in the Purdue collection would give us that data but that method proved to be too sloppy. Photos show that the jacket was a bit big for AE and how do you compensate for wrinkles in the sleeve?
The photo below shows AE standing by the open cabin door in Darwin. We know the door dimensions but, unfortunately, the door is not in the same plane (no pun intended) as her arm. BUT, if we knew the dimensions of that can she's holding we would have something to work with. The label seems to say "Mobilubricant" and the can is surely a standard size can for that era. Maybe cans like that are still in use today. Can we find one of those cans?
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I believe it is a grease pail....I have found an old Socony 5 lb pail that measures 6 3/4 tall and 5 and 3/16ths wide ,..but will do further research on the Mobil can.
Here is one similar on Ebay, ..will contact seller for dimensions.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-Very-Early-Mobilgrease-2-Grease-Can-5-Lb-Can-1409-/112391800856?hash=item1a2b12c818:g:O-YAAOSw2XFUjfmx
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I think Jerry is correct,
from the Luke Field Inventory
"56 *1 " 10 lb. can Mobilgrease, No. 2
57 *1 " 5 lb. can Mobilgrease, No.2"
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The seller of the Mobil can has given us one dimension in his posted photos. It is exact as the Socony can (predecessor to Mobil) 5 3/16ths inches wide....all we need is the height of the can from this fellow to see how it compares to the older Socony can. I have been looking at the striping on the Mobil can Earhart holds and the one listed on Ebay, and they seem close, but maybe a wide strip in the center of the adjacent stripes near the bottom is different somehow....would be ideal to get exact can, as I don't know if they changed sizes throughout the following war years and beyond. One good identifier is that it appears that where the handle ( used to be) attached on the can on ebay ( small triangle areas on two corners) still qualifies it.
I believe we can get some good estimates of Earhart's radius and arm length by using these object tools,...more to come.
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You guys are unbelievable!
The Luke Field inventory does list Mobilgrease. This can seems to say Mobilubricant, but she's in Darwin. Same stuff, slightly different product name in Australia?
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Just a nit to pick with Ric
Research? You mean Research?
Might want to change the title of this thread.
:-)
AMCK
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Might want to change the title of this thread.
I don't think I can (pun intended).
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Another similar can from Ebay, several photos, one photo with a ruler at this link (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Antique-Mobilgrease-metal-can-Gargoyle-Mobilgrease-No-5-/252861608788?hash=item3adfb9f354:g:OF8AAOSwPcVV0f2Q)
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Strange to see a lubricant can in such a rusty condition. Makes me wonder if it was steam cleaned of all lubricant residue and used for other purposes before being discarded to then rust out.
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Here is the older Socony can....it holds 5 lbs of material. This can was on on Ebay some time ago,...note tape measure used to help the prospective buyer with it's size.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Early-1900-039-s-Socony-Oil-Lubricant-5-Pound-Standard-Oil-Co-Can-NY-Mobil-/122397059270?hash=item1c7f6ee8c6%3Ag%3AGqsAAOSwax5Ywg3B&nma=true&si=2jWS%252B5WUA8f6Z54veeMBaLxSwro%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
I mentioned this before but Socony was the predecessor to Mobil, and I don't know as they would change the can size,when switching to Mobil, but rather relabel with the new logo and name. We might hold off on using these measurements for a bit, though as Ric mentioned, the can Earhart holds may have a different label and may have been purchased at some stop along the way, and may contain a metric volume of material instead, thus possibly making the can slightly different in size. I asked the seller for dimensions of the Mobile grease can I found earlier, but note that it is now sold, but am still holding out hope that he will send us the exact dimensions of that, before he ships it to it's new owner.
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Does anybody in this forum belong to the forum on oldgas.com (http://oldgas.com)? It's a forum for collectors of old gas station memorabilia. The photo of the mobilubricant can could be posted there for help in identifying it and its measurements. They have a gallery with quite a few cans, but I don't see anything that matches.
FYI, apparently Mobilubricant was a product of Vacuum Oil Company, which was a predecessor of Socony (Standard Oil). Then later it became Mobil Oil.
If no one here belongs to the Oldgas forum, I can take a crack at trying to post it.
Joy
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We might hold off on using these measurements for a bit, though as Ric mentioned, the can Earhart holds may have a different label and may have been purchased at some stop along the way, and may contain a metric volume of material instead, thus possibly making the can slightly different in size. I asked the seller for dimensions of the Mobile grease can I found earlier, but note that it is now sold, but am still holding out hope that he will send us the exact dimensions of that, before he ships it to it's new owner.
See below for the full frame of the photo. What's going on in this picture? They're in Darwin, Australia - the last "real place" before the long hop to Howland. It seems safe to assume that they're either off-loading stuff to leave in Darwin or they're loading stuff aboard that has been acquired in Darwin. Two parachutes, a bottle of nitrogen for servicing the landing gear struts, a spare tail wheel, a control yoke, a can of tomato juice (on the cabin floor), a "paint can" style can of lubricant on the ground, and the Mobilubricant can AE is holding. "Last Flight" says she left the parachutes in Darwin but press accounts by journalists who were there say she picked up two parachutes that had been shipped to her in Darwin. Also, off-loading full cans of lubricant she might need in servicing the aircraft in Lae doesn't make sense, so it looks like this is all stuff she has acquired in Darwin.
Metric? When did Australia go metric? I can read "lbs" on the can of lubricant on the ground.
The new owner of the eBay can is none other than Jeff Glickman. Jeff will use the can to recreate the exact angle seen in the photo so that he can give Dr. Jantz an accurate measurement of AE's arm for comparison to the castaway's arm bones.
Jeff is not looking forward to explaining to his wife why he bought an ancient, rusty can half full of grease.
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The new owner of the eBay can is none other than Jeff Glickman. Jeff will use the can to recreate the exact angle seen in the photo so that he can give Dr. Jantz an accurate measurement of AE's arm for comparison to the castaway's arm bones.
Jeff is not looking forward to explaining to his wife why he bought an ancient, rusty can half full of grease.
Congratulations Jeff on your purchase. I wonder if Jeff has an older piece of equipment around,...." Honey,( sometimes helps) the old machine won't operate well using modern grease"...it's kinda like classic coke and new coke, the original formula is best.
We are probably ok concerning metric measurements, ..it appears Australia just began allowing metric unit use in 1947.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_Australia
Although there was debate in Australia's first Parliament after federation to consider adopting the metric system,[2] metric units first became legal for use in Australia in 1947 when Australia signed the Metre Convention (or Convention du Mètre). However, Imperial "Weights and Measures" were most commonly used until the Commonwealth government began the metric changeover in the 1970s.
I am still on the search for the Mobilubricant can, ...there are several 1 lb round cans out there on the net, but haven't located the 5 lb square can so far. I think Joy has a great idea in contacting collectors in that field, and encourage her to pursue that avenue.
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See below for the full frame of the photo. What's going on in this picture? They're in Darwin, Australia - the last "real place" before the long hop to Howland. It seems safe to assume that they're either off-loading stuff to leave in Darwin or they're loading stuff aboard that has been acquired in Darwin. Two parachutes, a bottle of nitrogen for servicing the landing gear struts, a spare tail wheel, a control yoke, a can of tomato juice (on the cabin floor), a "paint can" style can of lubricant on the ground, and the Mobilubricant can AE is holding. "Last Flight" says she left the parachutes in Darwin but press accounts by journalists who were there say she picked up two parachutes that had been shipped to her in Darwin. Also, off-loading full cans of lubricant she might need in servicing the aircraft in Lae doesn't make sense, so it looks like this is all stuff she has acquired in Darwin.
Metric? When did Australia go metric? I can read "lbs" on the can of lubricant on the ground.
While it could be loading/off loading it could be during or immediately after customs had gone through the Electra. So some of this stuff was just removed and examined
From arrival at Darwin chapter in "Last Flight":
"We were pounced upon by a doctor as we rolled to a stop, and thereupon were examined thoroughly for tropical diseases. No one could approach us or the airplane until we had passed muster. If this work is done at all it should be thorough, and I approved the methods, although the formalities delayed refueling operations. The customs officials had to clear the Electra as if she were an ocean-going vessel, but that was done with much dispatch. Inasmuch as we had little in the plane but spare parts, fuel and oil, the process was simplified."
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"The customs officials had to clear the Electra as if she were an ocean-going vessel, but that was done with much dispatch. Inasmuch as we had little in the plane but spare parts, fuel and oil, the process was simplified."
"Clearing," in this context, does not mean clearing everything out of the vessel or aircraft. Our expedition vessel has to "clear" out of our embarkation port. This involves an inspection of the ship's papers and the the crew and passenger passports. Officials also confirm that nothing is being imported or exported without proper authorization and duties paid.
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I have the word out too several parties concerning the Mobilubricant pail, and what we need concerning it. Jeff may have purchased the correct sized pail, but it never hurts to be sure. The pail Earhart carries does have different labeling from the one purchased is one concern I have. Jeff did purchase a pail matching the description of one in the Luke Field inventory .....labeled Mobilgrease No 2. (5lbs) It seems to me that those who inventoried much of the contents of the crashed Electra did a pretty good job with the details, concerning objects secured after the accident. So......why is the pail Earhart carries in Darwin labeled Mobilubricant? A couple guesses are,....she used up her 5lb pail of Mobilgrease No 2 along the way and had to procure a replacement, and that is what was available to her... another guess, she left on the second attempt with this different labeled product. Yet another guess is she left her 10 lb can of Mobilegrease NO 2 in Darwin to save weight, and wanted to take along the smaller 5 lb unit to finish the trip,..though seeing the old 5 lb pail was partly used up, so she procured a new full pail with the different labeling. I don't know that, all that matters so much, but think it vital we find a pail labeled Mobilubricant, or information about the pail that will satisfy us regarding it's dimensions. I have contacted some pretty knowledgeable, experienced people, and hope help is on the way.
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My visiting brother suggested we try to contact the two guys who star in the TV show "American Pickers." One of them is a big collector of oil cans. Just a thought.
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My visiting brother suggested we try to contact the two guys who star in the TV show "American Pickers." One of them is a big collector of oil cans. Just a thought.
Great minds think alike .....They were first on my list of knowledgeable, experienced collectors, and an email was sent yesterday. Will let you know if I hear from them.
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https://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Luke_Field_Crash_Report/LukeFieldExhibitA.htm
The mention of a special grease brought along with the Electra, got me to wondering.... it seems Mobil grease NO 2 is a common type, ....so went back into the Luke field inventory list, and there listed as item number 55 is a product called Lubriplate in a 5 lb can https://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Luke_Field.html
Is Mobilubricant an equivalent to Lubriplate?
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This eBay page has a vintage Mobilubricant product on it, not a 5 lb can. The dates on the front are difficult to read but seem to be between 1910 and 1920.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-Mobilubricant-Vacuum-Oil-Co-Grease-Tin-Can-Dispenser-Bottle-Jar-/361594796185?hash=item5430bab899&nma=true&si=1zAQ50Lze6IKLhxCc61WictAyvU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
It was produced by The Vacuum Oil Company of Rochester NY, this page gives a history of that company
http://www.rochestersubway.com/topics/2015/11/inside-the-abandoned-vacuum-oil-refinery-rochester-ny/
with these pertinent details:"In 1879 Vacuum Oil became a division of Standard Oil. In 1934 it became the Socony-Vacuum Oil Company, then changed to the Standard-Vacuum Oil Company, and then again to Socony Mobil Oil Company. By 1981 the corporation was known as the Mobil Oil Company. And today it is part of ExxonMobil."
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Interesting story regarding the use of Mobilubricant by the military in the early part of the 20th century. Scroll up one page to read entire story.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3_-kUkNXTNwC&pg=PA474&lpg=PA474&dq=when+was+mobilubricant+developed?&source=bl&ots=Y5PI6nKksD&sig=wk9W8i17n6QoFPYMVCFtJuYJZ_I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8vqSJv9XTAhVIWSwKHeFLDN8Q6AEIJDAA#v=onepage&q=when%20was%20mobilubricant%20developed%3F&f=false
I wonder if this Mobilubricant is the special propeller hub grease....
I have contacted Mobil oil and it's archive curators in hopes they can help.
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I guess what is important here is if the can that Jeff bought is identical to the can that AE was carrying in the photo. Was this a can that was carried by AE from the US or was it obtained in Australia and therefore potentially different from the American can. There was an Australia Division of the Vacuum Oil Company , not just a marketing office , from
https://collections.museumvictoria.com.au/articles/2513
"In 1895 the Vacuum Oil Company became the first oil company established in Australia, less than 30 years after Vacuum first started operations in the United States. Prior to this other brands of oil based products were marketed by overseas companies through their Australian agents."
One point that might be relevant is "Vacuum Oil Inc, merged with the Standard Oil Company of New York to become Socony Vacuum, then Socony Mobil. It eventually became Mobil Corporation. Socony Mobil introduced the Flying Red Horse (Pegasus) logo. It appeared in Australia in 1939 and became one of Australia's best recognised corporate symbols." The can that AE is carrying in the 1937 photo does not have the flying horse and therefore maybe an Australian product, when was the horse logo put on cans in America?
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Socony Mobil introduced the Flying Red Horse (Pegasus) logo. It appeared in Australia in 1939 and became one of Australia's best recognised corporate symbols." The can that AE is carrying in the 1937 photo does not have the flying horse and therefore maybe an Australian product, when was the horse logo put on cans in America?
https://www.exxon.com/en/history
http://blog.retroplanet.com/mobil-gas-pegasus/
It appears early on, around 1911, in a different color theme, ...The Gargoyle symbol was used as well ( note the round can on the ground next to the pile of objects,) has that Gargoyle image.
Boy, Nothing about Amelia is ever easy is it?
Now if she were holding the can shown in the attachment while in Australia it would have made it easier
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See below for the full frame of the photo. What's going on in this picture? They're in Darwin, Australia - the last "real place" before the long hop to Howland. It seems safe to assume that they're either off-loading stuff to leave in Darwin or they're loading stuff aboard that has been acquired in Darwin. Two parachutes, a bottle of nitrogen for servicing the landing gear struts, a spare tail wheel, a control yoke, a can of tomato juice (on the cabin floor), a "paint can" style can of lubricant on the ground, and the Mobilubricant can AE is holding. "Last Flight" says she left the parachutes in Darwin but press accounts by journalists who were there say she picked up two parachutes that had been shipped to her in Darwin. Also, off-loading full cans of lubricant she might need in servicing the aircraft in Lae doesn't make sense, so it looks like this is all stuff she has acquired in Darwin.
Metric? When did Australia go metric? I can read "lbs" on the can of lubricant on the ground.
While it could be loading/off loading it could be during or immediately after customs had gone through the Electra. So some of this stuff was just removed and examined
From arrival at Darwin chapter in "Last Flight":
"We were pounced upon by a doctor as we rolled to a stop, and thereupon were examined thoroughly for tropical diseases. No one could approach us or the airplane until we had passed muster. If this work is done at all it should be thorough, and I approved the methods, although the formalities delayed refueling operations. The customs officials had to clear the Electra as if she were an ocean-going vessel, but that was done with much dispatch. Inasmuch as we had little in the plane but spare parts, fuel and oil, the process was simplified."
The happenings in that image are indeed interesting, Off-loading/On-loading, a combination of both? I confess I consider myself an amateur sleuth, untrained in detective work, but here are some of my amateur observations nonetheless.
I reason the tailwheel and the extra steering yoke, and nitrogen bottle would be stored far aft in the storage area near the tail, the parachutes would be more fore, near the entry of the storage door, and that is the how they appear to be unloaded...parachutes first, then tailwheel and yoke atop them.
Did the doctor order a complete unloading of the plane to allow fumigation to reach every nook and cranny,?....I did some research on diseases going on in Australia , and it seemed there was a bug going around during the late 1930's that caused a few deaths,but was getting under control by the time Earhart arrived, but in the interest of caution all visitors from afar may have been closely monitored.
Concerning the parachutes though, that is one question that may never be answered,....but to this admittedly unprofessionally trained in detective work layperson....I ask myself, would Earhart/Noonan stack greasy, heavy plane parts on brand new, potentially lifesaving parachutes?
I can see leaving the extra steering yoke behind, however the tailwheel, is another matter considering the next few landing strips to be encountered.
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http://cdn.thecollector.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Auc-Catalogue-15-September.pdf
Would like to get a look at item number 353 .....gives a manufacturer of the bucket as well.( Australian)
Update; I just sent off an email to this auction house.
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We could contact the Exxon Mobil Historical Collection at the University of Texas at this link:
http://www.cah.utexas.edu/feature/exxonmobil/index.php
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https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorauctions/photos/a.117969584914585.7269.114360865275457/1208618942516305/?type=3&theater
Dog gone....it is round. But it is interesting that the bucket was made by a company named Leskie and Gray out of Melbourne Australia ....will look for archives or if company still in existence.
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We could contact the Exxon Mobil Historical Collection at the University of Texas at this link:
http://www.cah.utexas.edu/feature/exxonmobil/index.php
Nope;
Re: TARO Contact Form
R
Reference, <cah.reference@austin.utexas.edu>
Reply|
Today, 12:40 PM
You
Dear Mr. Germann,
Thank you for contacting the Briscoe Center for American History. We have an index with pictures of the ExxonMobil artifacts we have so I looked at all the cans of grease and lubricant. I found one can of Mobilubricant but it's round and looks completely different from the one Earhart was holding.
I don't know if it's helpful but the text at the bottom edge of our can says:
Vacuum Oil company
New York, U.S.A.
It may be that that's what's likely written at the bottom of the can in the photo as well.
I'm sorry we couldn't be of more help! Let me know if you have any other questions.
Kendall Newton
Reference Intern
The Dolph Briscoe Center for American History
University of Texas at Austin
512-495-4532
cah.reference@austin.utexas.edu
I am striking out thus far , and running out of contacts. I wonder, ...are we dealing with an early Knock off product? Thus the lack of the Pegasus trademark emblem on Earhart's can?
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Here is a can with little handle and the gargoyle symbol on it....and Mobilubricant label,
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/richard-edmonds-auctions/catalogue-id-ibri10015/lot-47b6c5de-8c09-4e09-9a76-a43d015d6307
Also found a forum whereby they were discussing a mobilubricant can without the Pegasus or gargoyle symbol, and one fellow thought some cans made before 1931 might not have those upon them. ( But would Amelia use a product that old?,..Only thing available in the outback?)
http://www.oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=47448
I can't upload the photos .....can anyone here do that?
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I can't upload the photos .....can anyone here do that?
Yes.
Here is a tutorial on how to upload photos (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,128.0.html), with tips and tricks and links to another tutorial.
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This can, although round, is interesting, unlike all of the American-made Mobil containers that I have found so far this one has a side with the just the product name in large print like the can AE is carrying in the photo and with Vacuum Oil Company, Made in Australia on the lower part of the label which maybe what the smaller print on AE's can says. The American cans I have seen either have the logos or descriptive printing on all sides. The photo comes from this link that shows it has the pegasus label on the other side, https://picclick.com.au/Vacuum-Oil-Co-Mobilgrease-1-Lb-Pound-Vintage-232272273377.html . There may have been another word ( i.e. Grease) underneath Vacuum originally, hard to tell.
I wonder if these cans are from an industrial source rather than retail, the retail cans have lots of extra info while industrial ( ie airport) are more plain
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Does anybody in this forum belong to the forum on oldgas.com (http://oldgas.com)? It's a forum for collectors of old gas station memorabilia. The photo of the mobilubricant can could be posted there for help in identifying it and its measurements. They have a gallery with quite a few cans, but I don't see anything that matches.
Joy
I decided to join that Forum, and hope one or more of the members can help out.
Also , regarding the product Lubriplate, mentioned in the Luke field inventory as item 55...a 5lb pail....I noticed in a previous photo I posted concerning a map case, that there are TWO cans of lubriplate in the items Earhart is looking at. It seems in the story about her having trouble with galling of her propeller hubs upon landing in Hawaii, and that there was a special grease aboard may be proved by that image. Only one 5lb pail was inventoried after the crash..did the rest go into the almost dry propeller hubs before the attempted takeoff from Luke? It is unfortunate we don't see the two differing sizes of Mobilgrease NO 2 and or that other can we seek....but as mentioned , that can may have been carried for a very short duration of the trip.
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To all the wizards out there: Is it possible to determine a length ratio between the can length and the length of the “M” in "Mobil" in the photo? Can we then compare the length ratio between the two “arm bones” in the records with the forgoing can ratio in order to see if there is a correlation?
Ted Campbell
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Jeff Glickman has completed his scaling of the photo. Report attached. Dr. Jantz will now be able to determine the distance in inches between any two points on AE's arm.
In his report, Jeff refers to the can as an "oil can" but he is, of course, talking about the Mobilubricant can.
Ric