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Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Ric Gillespie on September 19, 2016, 03:49:38 PM

Title: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 19, 2016, 03:49:38 PM
As you may know, we have a copy of the chart the U.S. Navy at Pearl Harbor used to manage the search for Earhart.  It's in the San Bruno, CA  National Archives.  Unfortunately, the photocopy our researcher made of the chart cut off the top part so we don't know what chart it is.  My suspicion is that it's H.O. (Hydrographic Office) #1198 and it's probably the same chart Noonan was using.  If so, it explains why none of the post-loss messages mention the name of the island.  The chart ends just north of Gardner.  Earhart and Noonan literally flew off their map. The Navy had to extend the chart by hand to plot the Pan Am radio bearings crossing at Gardner.   We need to find a copy of H.O. #1198 to confirm that the Navy search management chart is H.O #1198.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Harbert William Davenport on September 19, 2016, 04:56:21 PM
This is what I have found so far, for Chart 1198, but it is not what we are hoping for:

Bookmark, Share or Download this Image Directly: https://historicalcharts.noaa.gov/historicals/preview/image/1198-4-1890 (https://historicalcharts.noaa.gov/historicals/preview/image/1198-4-1890)

Image: 1198-04-1890
Title: ISLANDS IN THE PACIFIC OCEAN
Type: Nautical Chart
Year: 1945
Scale: 1:15000
Publisher: NOAA-NOS
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 19, 2016, 05:45:00 PM
This is what I have found so far, for Chart 1198, but it is not what we are hoping for:

Bookmark, Share or Download this Image Directly: https://historicalcharts.noaa.gov/historicals/preview/image/1198-4-1890 (https://historicalcharts.noaa.gov/historicals/preview/image/1198-4-1890)

Image: 1198-04-1890
Title: ISLANDS IN THE PACIFIC OCEAN
Type: Nautical Chart
Year: 1945
Scale: 1:15000
Publisher: NOAA-NOS

Hmmmm... that would explain the attached.  So the chart of the north central Pacific is not H.O. 1198.  Gotta figure out what chart that is.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on September 20, 2016, 09:53:47 AM
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31822008699613;view=1up;seq=37

Available maps for purchase during the time of the world flight and their prices are listed in this sales catalog. Maps 823-826 would be interesting to view. I am currently looking for an image of any and all of these.

( link credit due a friend) 
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on September 20, 2016, 10:07:10 AM
So, I have looked in the obvious places, and haven't found any comparable images.  I would guess, however, that the chart is HO 5556, "Meteorological Plotting Chart of the North Pacific Ocean,"  which has a 1930 edition, but was still in service (with revisions) as late as 1948.   I have seen several references to this chart, but not the chart itself.  The contemporary charts are NGA 52, NGA 525, and NGA 526.

adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on September 20, 2016, 01:53:08 PM
Okay, wrong again.  I found an image of a 1935 "meteorological plotting chart of the North Pacific Ocean" in Purdue's Earhart archive, here:
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/ref/collection/earhart/id/553
It is a lambert conformal projection, not a Mercator, and much smaller scale. 
adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 20, 2016, 02:26:30 PM
For the first attempt flight from Oakland to Honolulu Noonan used "Pan American System Pacific Division - California-Hawaii - (east-half)" and "Pan American System Pacific Division - California-Hawaii - (west-half)"
For the second attempt South Atlantic crossing he used a U.S. government chart "North Atlantic Ocean - Southeastern Sheet - 956a".

The map the Navy used to manage the search (what I call the "Murfin Map" after 14th Naval District Commandant ADM. Orin Murfin) has as its western limit 139° E Longitude.  The eastern limit is 156° W Longitude.  The southern limit is 2° 30' S.  We don't have the northern edge but the highest latitude we have is 23° 30' N.

Pan American's first survey flight to New Zealand was in March 1937 so it seems unlikely that Pan Am had a Pacific Division map for Hawaii-Auckland in May when AE and FN left on the second attempt.
Based on the list of charts Jerry Germann provided, my best guess is that the Murfin Map is #825 South Pacific Ocean, Sheet III.
Whatever map it is, it may have been the only chart available that showed Howland Island and was suitable for use in aerial navigation.  Noonan may also have had "#826 South Pacific Ocean, Western Part" to cover the first part of the route to Howland.
"North Atlantic Ocean - Southeastern Sheet - 956a" isn't listed in the catalog Jerry found, so that's a bit of a puzzle.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on September 20, 2016, 04:33:59 PM
... my best guess is that the Murfin Map is #825 South Pacific Ocean, Sheet III.

To me (and to Wikipedia, FWIW), "South Pacific" means "south of the equator." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pacific)  "South Pacific Ocean, the southern part of the Pacific Ocean, usually the area south of the equator."

Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 20, 2016, 04:56:25 PM
... my best guess is that the Murfin Map is #825 South Pacific Ocean, Sheet III.

To me (and to Wikipedia, FWIW), "South Pacific" means "south of the equator." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pacific)  "South Pacific Ocean, the southern part of the Pacific Ocean, usually the area south of the equator."

Good point (it's been a long day)  Maybe "#528 North Pacifc Ocean Middle Part" is a better guess.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on September 20, 2016, 05:04:30 PM
Ric-


I think its 528.  Try this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Era-Nautical-Chart-528-NORTH-PACIFIC-OCEAN-Aleutian-Hawaiian-Caroline-Is-/252532882700?hash=item3acc21fd0c:g:VxoAAOSwIwhWS6QX

adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 20, 2016, 05:11:35 PM
Ric-


I think its 528.  Try this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Era-Nautical-Chart-528-NORTH-PACIFIC-OCEAN-Aleutian-Hawaiian-Caroline-Is-/252532882700?hash=item3acc21fd0c:g:VxoAAOSwIwhWS6QX

adr

Thanks Art.  Close but no cigar.  528 stops at the equator and the Murfin Map goes to 2° 30' S.  Damn.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on September 20, 2016, 06:22:18 PM
The Murfin Map is odd.  Notice that there are no soundings, no lines of magnetic declination, and the lat/lon grid is unusually dense for the scale.  The Hawaiian chain is off of the piece of the map we see, but the Marianas are present.    OTOH, the typefaces and place names are the same as 528.  I can't work out the scale of the Murfin map, but it is in the neighborhood of 528.

Maybe the Murfin chart is a small piece of a much larger chart covering the whole Northern Pacific.  Alternatively, maybe the Murfin map isn't a proper nautical chart at all, but a "plotting chart" or "planning chart,"  printed in quantity, and marked up for planning operations, or plotting radio bearings, or whatever. 

If you search on "chart" in the Purdue Library, you will see several "meteorological plotting charts," each containing hand-drawn pressure isobars, etc to illustrate an individual forecast.

adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Kurt Kummer on September 20, 2016, 06:24:10 PM
Let me know if you think a personal trip to the National Archives in San Bruno would be helpful.  I'm not far from there.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 20, 2016, 06:34:04 PM
Let me know if you think a personal trip to the National Archives in San Bruno would be helpful.  I'm not far from there.

Thanks Kurt.  It may come to that.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 20, 2016, 06:44:56 PM
The Murfin Map is odd.  Notice that there are no soundings, no lines of magnetic declination, and the lat/lon grid is unusually dense for the scale.

The absence of soundings may be an indication that it's an aviation chart. The search was managed from Fleet Air Base, Pearl Harbor.

  The Hawaiian chain is off of the piece of the map we see, but the Marianas are present.

The main islands of the Hawaiian chain are there, extreme top right corner.


Maybe the Murfin chart is a small piece of a much larger chart covering the whole Northern Pacific.

Nope.  The edge we have - east bottom and west - have printed latitude and longitude numbers.  They are definitely the edges of the map.

  Alternatively, maybe the Murfin map isn't a proper nautical chart at all, but a "plotting chart" or "planning chart,"  printed in quantity, and marked up for planning operations, or plotting radio bearings, or whatever. 

It certainly does not seem to be a nautical chart.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Kurt Kummer on September 20, 2016, 07:08:28 PM
If the researcher used one of the National Archives' microfilm readers in San Bruno to take the image of the map it's understandable that an edge or two were cut off.  The microfilm readers are VERY cumbersome to use. 
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on September 21, 2016, 08:18:33 AM
The extents of the Murfin map are also interesting.  Starting with 528, it has been extended west to cover the Marianas (i.e. Guam), it already includes Wake, and it probably includes Midway. I can't see Midway on the image, but Midway is 28.2 degrees North, so it ought to be there.  Why the map was extended from the equator to 2.5 south is a puzzle.  I was thinking Canton Island, but Canton is 2.8 degrees South.  However, Tamana Island, the southernmost island in the Gilbert chain, is at exactly 2.5 degrees South.

Keep in mind that in 1937, OP-20-G was just beginning to deploy HF/DF stations in the Pacific, so the Murfin map might be a plotting chart for HF/DF, or it may be the very first aviation chart of the Pacific. It would be interesting to look in the 1939 version of Hydrographic Office catalog and see if there is a new aviation chart listed.   

adr
adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 21, 2016, 08:44:31 AM
If it was an HF/DF plotting chart it was probably not commercially available to Noonan. If it's an aviation chart it probably would be, and an obvious choice for Noonan.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on September 21, 2016, 10:50:08 AM
and covered the region.   So, generally, there were no aviation charts covering the Central Pacific, and if there were, they would contain pretty much the same information as the nautical charts.  Overseas nautical charts were available from the Navy Hydrographic Office, or which we have a 1935 catalog, and from the British Admiralty.  Lets focus on the Hydrographic Office for now. 

Noonan's chart problem was that his route ran along the equator, and the equator was the seam between "North Pacific" and "South Pacific" for HO nautical charts.  In addition, it would take days to steam across an HO chart, but only hours to fly across one. Both the North Pacific and South Pacific areas were divided into a series of West-to-East sheets.  Lae was probably on HO 824a or HO 825.

The route stayed South of the equator from Lae to the northern Solomons  to USS Ontario (3 degrees S), to the southern Gilberts (Tabituea, 1.3 degrees S), and I would think that Noonan would use a South Pacific chart for that part of the trip.  Howland, of course, sits just north of the equator (0.8 degrees N), but the route only crosses the equator roughly mid-way between the Gilberts and Howland.  Jarvis is 0.4 degrees South, and is included on HO 528 with a border bulge.

So, if Noonan was using a "South Pacific" HO chart for the last part of the flight (HO 825?), the chart would probably show the Phoenix Islands.  I can't be sure, because I don't know where the longitude of the boundaries between the various South Pacific sheets.   Also, Noonan may have cut and stitched the North Pacific and South Pacific sheets together, and chopped off or folded away some the places he never planned to visit.

HO 528 would be good for the never-flown Howland-to-Honolulu leg, but, is, I think problematic for the final flight because it doesn't show the southern Gilberts.  The Murfin Map shows the Gilberts, but I think Noonan would want a South Pacific chart to get to the Gilberts, and we don't know how far East that South Pacific chart extends. 
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on September 24, 2016, 07:17:27 PM
to all-

This ridiculously overpriced Ebay item is a good analogue to the Murfin Map.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HAWAII-CALIFORNIA-COAST-WWII-PACIFIC-THEATRE-NAVY-PILOTS-FLIGHT-CHART-POSTER-/142124973391?hash=item21174efd4f:g:S8kAAOSw~OdVdvi6

Like the Murfin map, this chart is an an HO product that uses a mercator projection with closely spaced lat/lon lines and no soundings.    Unlike the Murfin map, it has magnetic iso-declination lines and various navigation aids in purple overprint.  It is described as a "Pacific Airways Plotting Chart," 2nd Edition, dated 1945, with a number VR-201.  There is a small index map  to other numbered Pacific Ocean VR charts in the lower left corner.  The other circa 1945 VR charts don't cover the same area as the Murfin Map.

So, I suspect that the Murfin Map is a first generation aviation plotting chart that was subsequently replaced by the more elaborate set of charts shown on the index map.   While it obviously existed and was in use in 1937, it is not yet clear whether or not the Murfin Map was published and made available to the general public.

adr

Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on September 28, 2016, 05:15:14 PM
To all-
I have acquired a paper copy of the March 1939 edition of "General Catalog of Mariners' and Aviators' Charts and and Books."  Unlike the digital copy hosted by the Hathitrust, the paper copy has large folding index maps bound into the back of the book, showing the coverage of the charts sold by the Hydrographic Office. 

--The Hydrographic Office, part of the U.S. Navy, limited itself largely to foreign charts.  Domestic charts were published by the Coast & Geodetic Survey. 

--Foreign governments, especially the UK, had their own chart services.  It is apparent that there was extensive copying between governments, so that U.S. and British charts were frequently identical.

--In 1939, the Hydrographic Office did not publish any plotting charts for public sale like the Murfin Map, nor the meteorological and great circle plotting charts that we find from other sources.  The evidence is clear that the HO made such charts for internal use.  The HO did publish "plotting sheets" for each 10 degrees of latitude, suitable for navigators to mark up.   We know AE did obtain marked-up meteorological plotting charts from the Navy, and she might have obtained other plotting charts as well.  There is nothing secret about the plotting charts, they are just a specialized product.

--There are no published aviator's charts covering any Pacific Ocean location other than Hawaii and the Western Coast of North America.

--Index Chart A (attached:  GCMAC_1939_Index_A.jpg) shows the coverage of the various nautical charts sold by the HO.  The "North Pacific" nautical charts (528 and 529) stop at the equator.  However, the "South Pacific" nautical charts overlap, and extend to 2 degree North latitude.   The best chart for Fred Noonan to plot the Lae-Howland leg would be HO 825 (edition of 1934), which extends from Lae on the West, the Central Gilberts to the North, and well East of Howland.  HO 825 does include the Phoenix Group, so if Noonan used this chart, Gardner/Niku would be on it. 

--The best charts for the Howland-Hawaii leg would be HO 527 and 528.  Both are needed because,in 1939, HO 528 doesn't include Oahu, and 527 doesn't include Howland.

--Index Chart R shows larger scale HO charts available in the Central Pacific.  There is no larger scale chart covering Howland and Baker.  There are larger scale charts covering the Gilberts (HO 119 and multiple local charts) and the Phoenix Group (HO 1198).

adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 29, 2016, 07:38:38 AM
I wrote to Randy Jacobson who got our copy of the Murfin chart from the archive at San Bruno many years ago.  Here's what Randy had to say:

"I do have that map from San Bruno, and I never noticed the hand-drawn latitude/longitude lines.  But I can explain somewhat where it comes from.
Examining the Lexington search map, the fonts and locations of the islands on the Lex map match Murfin’s map.  The Lex map was produced by the Hydrographic Office, and is called a No. 5050, Strategic Plotting Chart No. 17, covering a bit below -8*S to 16*N, and 175*E to 147*W.  It too has a bit extended on the left hand side, but the chart is complete.  This chart covers the Phoenix Islands and has their positions and names.  The tick marks for longitude are located at -5*S and 10*N, and for latitude at 155 and 175* W.  What is different between the Murfin map and the Lex Map is “Pacific Ocean” is not on the Lex Map spanning the two circular plots.
 
So…I believe there were a series of these charts, all at different scales and different coverage areas, all prepared by the Hydrographic Office.  They were used as early as 1920, as US Navy annual reports indicate (googling).
 
What’s puzzling to me is that I do not remember the original maps (Lex or Murfin) being from multiple pieces.  It was a good 20 years since I was at San Bruno, so my memory may not be holding up.  I do remember, however, that I asked for copies of the maps, and got some in real time and some sent to me.  When I was at San Bruno, I didn’t spend a lot of time pouring over maps and charts due to limited time constraints, but rather found something useful and requested copies.
 
Given unlimited assets and resources, it would be worthwhile to go back to San Bruno and re-examine the originals.  There’s an ink or coffee stain on the Murfin chart that I cannot read with my Xerox copy.  That text deals with the post-loss radio messages and signals.  If the map pieces have been folded and taped together, then the folded sections (found on the back?) would have the chart number on them as well.
 
So why did Murfin’s map have hand-drawn latitude and longitude lines?  They had a small scale of the North Pacific available but no comparable map immediately south.  The Lex map is a bigger scale of the western South and North Pacific, useful for them, but at a different scale than Murfin’s map.
 
It’s too bad we don’t have a listing of all of the Strategic Plotting Charts from that era."

Randy also sent an undated transcript of a talk San Bruno archivist Kathleen O'Connor gave to a symposium about the archive's Earhart-related holdings.

"Hello, my name is Kathleen O’Connor, and I am the Archivist at the San Francisco Branch of the National Archives, located in San Bruno across the bay.  I am here to tell you that I have not solved the Earhart mystery, at least not yet.  My job is to preserve, protect, and to make available to researchers information that may help in their investigations.  Most of you know about the numerous documents regarding Earhart’s flight in 1937 from materials found primarily in the National Archives in Washington DC and other archives in that area.  What many of you may not know is that the National Archives have several regional branches containing materials of regional interest.  The San Francisco Branch is responsible for archiving documents from the west coast region, including Hawaii and Alaska.  Since the search for Earhart was tasked by the Chief of Naval Operations to be conducted by the Commandant of the 14th Naval District in Hawaii, Adm. Orrin Murfin, there is a substantial number of unique documents located in the San Bruno facility.  In addition, records from the 12th Naval District, based in San Francisco (which covers Oakland, where Earhart started both of her round the world flights), and records from the Naval Station in American Samoa are also stored here.

The kinds of documents belong to three general classes: radio messages and related correspondence, maps, and reports.  I should also state that all records dealing with Amelia Earhart have all been declassified long ago, even those records remotely connected with her flights and disappearance.  In the brief time I have, let me just touch on some aspects of the uniqueness of these records.

Radio Messages: According to Dr. Randy Jacobson of the Office of Naval Research, who has catalogued all available radio messages relating to Earhart’s flights, there are 512 radio messages in the COM14 section, 223 in the COM12 section, and 103 in the Tutuilla, American Samoa collection out of a total of 3239 radio messages.  Once the duplicates are counted,  there are 1687 records, and 966 that are unique, or single-copy radio messages.  COM14 has 97 (10.04%), COM12 has 16 (1.66%), and Tutuilla 38 (3.93%) unique radio messages.  These 151 messages cannot be found anywhere else.  Well, what do they say?  I’m sorry to say that you will have to come to San Bruno and read them yourselves, or ask Dr. Jacobson for that information, as it is not the job of the archivist to do this kind of research.  Dr. Jacobson has graciously provided information as to decoding the cryptic headers of Naval and Coast Guard radio messages, and those guides are also available at San Bruno. 

Reports: The reports on Earhart’s disappearance are those that you have seen elsewhere in various archives, except that we have the original Colorado report to Adm. Murfin, as well as Capt. Friedell’s original report on the Lexington search.  We also have the original full-scale maps of the Lexington and other ships’ search, with the unique addition of the working copy of the Lexington search map.  On this map are lines drawn in ink that were obvious mistakes, but were copied onto the final version, altering the actual areas that the Lexington purported to search. 

Maps: The real jewel in our collection is the 14th Naval District working map of the Earhart disappearance covering the period from July 2 through July 5, when numerous radio messages were thought to have come from Earhart.  On this map are annotations of events that are not found anywhere else.  Let me briefly state what these annotations are:
Additional Dope on Radio Bearings
Mokapu
3 July      first bearing 213 (+-10)
4 July      2nd bearing 200
      also 105o and 180o thrown out as doubtful
Wake         115o
   5 July      144o
2200 night 2nd   Itasca heard weak signals
        night 3rd      Itasca heard weak signals?

Night of 3rd-
KGMB request to broadcast-
0630GCT 4th (8PM local Honolulu to 215) Amateur in Maui
                  CG
                  Wailupe
                  Army [unreadable]
                  PAA
asked for 8 dashes if on water---got 8 in response
asked for 4 dashes if North of Howland and 6 is [sic] South [unreadable] received [unreadable] 105
0120 to 0150 morning of 5 July  3 operators at Wailupe [unreadable] transmission transmission [sic]
“281 North of Howland beyond north” etc.  Coast Guard [unreadable] could not copy

From what I know, no other document mentions a 200, 105, and 180 degree bearing from Makapuu, Oahu.  Furthermore, there is no other documents (except perhaps the local Hawaiian newspapers) of what KGMB broadcast to Earhart and what specifically was heard in response.  There are other very interesting markings on this map, and I invite anyone interested to spend some time in San Bruno examining it.

Well, I hope I have piqued your interest in the amount of information still to be examined by Earhart researchers that is available for examination.  Perhaps some of this information may provide the definitive clue as to what happened to Earhart and why.  I invite anyone interested to come to our facility, and I will help you in any way I can.  Good luck to all of you, and thank you for inviting me to speak at this marvelous symposium.

Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on September 29, 2016, 09:44:55 AM
So, the state of play, so far, is:

1)  If AE & FN used only published charts, the Phoenix Group would probably be on the chart, since the chart was probably HO 825.  We don't know if Gardner Island was specifically named, since we don't have the chart itself.   If FN created a custom strip chart with scissors and paste, nobody knows where he put the scissors.

2) If AE & FN used non-public plotting charts, some plotting charts included the Phoenix Group, and others did not.   The Lexington plotting chart, HO 5050, described by Randy would work nicely for FN (Lae is 6.7 degrees S, 147 degrees W), and it includes the Phoenix Islands.   The Murfin Map could only have been used in conjunction with some other chart for the first part of the Lae-Howland leg.

So, to me, the assertion that AE & FN "flew off the chart" looks shaky.

adr



adr 
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 29, 2016, 11:14:54 AM
So, to me, the assertion that AE & FN "flew off the chart" looks shaky.

I think you and I are coming at this from different perspectives.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that there were charts available for Noonan to use, for example HO 5050, that would work nicely and included the Phoenix Islands.  So that is most likely what he did. Therefore the "flew off the chart" theory is shaky.

I look at the post-loss radio signals and find it odd that in none of them does Earhart say the name of an island.  If you're down on an island and you want to be rescued I think we'd all agree that you would say the name of the island.  "We're on Gardner island, Gardner, Gardner, Gardner."  Instead we get garbled or forgotten lat/long coordinates and descriptions like, "down on small, uncharted island" (Mabel Larremore), "ship on reef southeast of Howland" (Dana Randolph), "281 north" (Navy Wailupe) and "N.Y. N.Y. (Betty Klenck).  I ask myself, under what circumstance would AE have lat/long but not know the name of the island?  The only answer I can come up with is that she did not have a map on which she could plot the lat/long and see the name of the island.  Was there a map in 1937 that Noonan could have used for the flight to Howland that did not show Gardner?  Yes, the same chart the 14th Naval District used to manage the search.  We just don't know the nomenclature for that chart.  Was that chart a USN chart not available to Noonan?  We don't know, but given the support Earhart had from the Navy it seems unlikely.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Bill Mangus on September 29, 2016, 11:55:32 AM
Is it possible there was a map which showed only the "Phoenix Islands" as a group without naming individual islands?

As for the possible lat/long heard, it would have been easy for Fred to take star sightings and work out their position -- that was, after all, his profession.  Since the sextant box was found at the 7 site, the sextant made it ashore.  (If the rock carin turns out to be Fred, that's likely where the sextant ended-up, along with his watch and dental work.)  Of course he may not have been coherent enough to plot their position after whatever happened to cause his injury, but maybe he was in-and-out of it.

Maybe he did a rough DR fix during the flight down 157 deg from Howland Island or just after they saw Gardner and she was surveying it before landing.

Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 29, 2016, 12:02:45 PM
Is it possible there was a map which showed only the "Phoenix Islands" as a group without naming individual islands?

It's possible but if I knew I was in the Phoenix Islands I'd say so. 
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Bill Mangus on September 29, 2016, 12:30:49 PM
We don't know she didn't say so.  Maybe she did but no one heard it.  Maybe she just wanted to be precise; the  Phoenix Is. cover a lot of territory and she may have had a lat/long position from Fred.  No way to know for sure unless another transcript shows up after nearly 80 years.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on September 29, 2016, 02:30:36 PM
IF Noonan used the Murfin Map, then he had to have ANOTHER map, which covered Lae, New Britain/Bougainville, Nukumanu, and the USS Ontario.  That other map might have been the published HO 825 or the Navy's unpublished HO 5050, both of which cover the entire Lae-Howland route.  Once he has the other map, why does he still need the Murfin Map?

I gather you have looked at the chart Noonan used to navigate from Natal to Dakar/St Louis.  What kind of chart was that?

adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 29, 2016, 04:17:28 PM
IF Noonan used the Murfin Map, then he had to have ANOTHER map, which covered Lae, New Britain/Bougainville, Nukumanu, and the USS Ontario.

Agreed

  That other map might have been the published HO 825 or the Navy's unpublished HO 5050, both of which cover the entire Lae-Howland route.  Once he has the other map, why does he still need the Murfin Map?

He wouldn't, so for the theory to work he must have had a map other than HO 825 or HO 5050.

I gather you have looked at the chart Noonan used to navigate from Natal to Dakar/St Louis.  What kind of chart was that?

For the first attempt flight from Oakland to Honolulu Noonan used "Pan American System Pacific Division - California-Hawaii - (east-half)" and "Pan American System Pacific Division - California-Hawaii - (west-half)"
For the second attempt South Atlantic crossing he used a U.S. government chart "North Atlantic Ocean - Southeastern Sheet - 956a".


Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on September 30, 2016, 05:48:13 PM
He wouldn't, so for the theory to work he must have had a map other than HO 825 or HO 5050.
Okay, but we (or at least I) can't identify that other map.  It isn't an HO published product.  It might be a Pan Am map, but Pan Am didn't begin service to the South Pacific until 1938 or so, and the survey flights mostly stayed at the East end of the needed range.  It might be another Navy plotting chart, but if Noonan gets to pick plotting charts, it would be hard to improve on HO 5050.  Conceivably it was an Admiralty nautical chart, which I haven't considered. 

On a related topic, I tried to measure the location of Howland on the Murfin Map, and came up with 0.81N, 167.65E, compared with the actual location of 0.81N, 167.71E, and the 1936 "Bowditch" location of 0.81N, 167.61E.  1 degree at the equator is 60nm, so 0.01 degrees is 0.6 nm.  The current edition of HO 825 at the time of the flight was dated 1934, so if there was more recent info on Howland's location, it wouldn't appear on the published chart.   The differences don't seem material to me.

The map that Noonan used for Dakar was the latest available edition of the relevant HO nautical chart.

adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on October 01, 2016, 07:21:27 AM
oops.  here is the attachment.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on October 01, 2016, 01:28:42 PM
Okay, but we (or at least I) can't identify that other map.

I guess we'll have to cheat and actually have a look at the map in the San Bruno archive. Unless the the top of the map was torn off for some reason, the identifying information should be right there.  We may be able to get an archivist to go look at it and tell us what it says. 

On a related topic, I tried to measure the location of Howland on the Murfin Map, and came up with 0.81N, 167.65E, compared with the actual location of 0.81N, 167.71E, and the 1936 "Bowditch" location of 0.81N, 167.61E.  1 degree at the equator is 60nm, so 0.01 degrees is 0.6 nm.  The current edition of HO 825 at the time of the flight was dated 1934, so if there was more recent info on Howland's location, it wouldn't appear on the published chart.   The differences don't seem material to me.


...especially since Bob Brandenburg's modeling of the Electra's transmitting antenna strongly suggests that the flight never got within 100 miles of Howland. 

Speaking of correct positions, the hand-plotted locations for McKean and Gardner on the Murfin Map are a wee bit off.  The longitude looks okay but the latitudes are too far south.  Whoever plotted the locations must have gotten them from some chart that included the Phoenix Group.

Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ted G Campbell on October 02, 2016, 07:09:22 PM
All,
How many miles NORTH of Niku is the equator - using today's coord. and the inaccurate coords. of earlier maps?  281 North?
Ted Campbell
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Harbert William Davenport on October 02, 2016, 09:49:54 PM
Here's one place to do the calculation:  http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gccalc.shtml (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gccalc.shtml)

Niku is listed on Wiki as 4.68 degrees south of the equator, which computes to, you guessed it,

          281 nautical miles

Wow, is that a coincidence, or what?!
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on October 02, 2016, 09:56:08 PM
All,
How many miles NORTH of Niku is the equator - using today's coord. and the inaccurate coords. of earlier maps?  281 North?
Ted Campbell

4 degrees 36 minutes 37 seconds south of the equator, according to Stephen P. Morse (http://www.stevemorse.org/nearest/distance.php), is:

317.835 statute miles, 276.191 nautical miles
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Harbert William Davenport on October 03, 2016, 07:25:52 AM
Well, I suppose a skeptic will say that the coincidence is that I happened to choose the Wikipedia co-ordinate for Niku and the NOAA calculator, and that Ted did so as well, though he's not yet divulged his method.  Anyone who wishes to see '281' is advised to follow suit.
    Apparently after all these years there is still not agreement on exactly where Gardner/Nikumaroro is, but I guess we here in this Forum can agree that as long as Ric and the TIGHAR team can find the place next summer, all will be well!
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ted G Campbell on October 03, 2016, 10:26:02 AM
All,
Very interesting!  Apparently AE knew about where she was.  Does any one know where the "281 North" message was first recorded?
Ted Campbell
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on October 03, 2016, 11:02:06 AM
apparently after all these years there is still not agreement on exactly where Gardner/Nikumaroro is, ...

I used a placemark in Google Earth--but, on closer inspection, my placemark does not correspond to what I get when I let Google Earth find its way to Nikumaroro Island, Kirbati.

The Google Earth coordinates are:


4°40'40.51"S

174°31'10.55"W

Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on October 03, 2016, 03:01:43 PM
Very interesting!  Apparently AE knew about where she was.

You can get your latitude by shooting the sun at local noon.  Once you have your latitude it's easy to calculate your distance from the equator. A minute latitude is 60 nautical miles.   Niku is almost four miles long.  Not every place on the island is 281 nautical miles from the equator.

  Does any one know where the "281 North" message was first recorded?l

Navy Radio Wailupe (near Honolulu).

https://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Brandenburg/signalcatalog4.html#ID51130WE
Message 125
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on October 05, 2016, 07:43:53 AM
Horace Brock (1908-1981) was an early Pan Am pilot and navigator and subsequently an executive.  Scion of a wealthy Philadelphia family, he attended Yale and graduated from Harvard Law School, but never practiced:  instead, on graduation, he signed up for the Army Air Corps as an aviation cadet.  He was eventually commissioned as a 2nd lieutenant and bomber pilot, but resigned to join Pan American's Caribbean Division in 1935 as an "apprentice pilot."  At Pan Am, he was cross-trained as a navigator, radio operator, and licensed mechanic, flying Caribbean routes as navigator and first officer.  In April 1937, he was transferred to the Pacific Division, flying the Martin M-130 and Sikorsky S-42 mostly as a navigator.  In 1939, he transferred to the Atlantic Division, flying the S-42 and the Boeing 314, as first officer, and later, as Pan Am styled it, "Master Ocean Pilot."  He was eventually ran Pan Am's Atlantic Division.  In 1978, we wrote his memoirs, "Flying the Oceans," (Stinehour Press), which is filled with interested and detailed stories about ocean navigation in the 1930s.   

One such story relates to charts.  The story appears in the context of flying along the Brazilian and Venezuelan coasts in 1935-1936.

"Our jobs as pilots involved special problems.  There were, of course, sailing charts, hydrographic charts, and coast charts issued by the U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey.  These ocean charts were of little use due to lack of details of the shores of the adjacent land.  We were reduced to maps issued by the National Geographic Society and school-book atlases.  Mostly, we drew in prominent features of terrain as well as courses and distances on any maps we could obtain.  My mother used to send me ones she got at a map store in Philadelphia.  The USC&G chart [Actually Hydrographic Office-adr] which I used on this first Para [Brazil] trip was only a strip cut from the full chart.  I noticed on it a landmark which said "Big Tree," on the dotted shore shown between the Orinoco and Marajo Island.  Obviously there were no trees along this coast, only mangrove swamps and no identifiable shoreline for hundreds of miles.  When I got to Miami, I looked for and found a copy of the entire chart (we always cut them into strips as they were easier to handle in the cockpit) and promptly sought the lower, left hand, bottom corner where the legend was, and under it, in fine print, the source was given as "From Surveys by Magellan."
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on October 10, 2016, 08:39:14 PM
Fred Noonan also described the charts he used on the 1935 Pan Am flight from Alameda to Honolulu in his letter to PVH Weems.  This letter was later republished in Van Horne's "Air Navigation," and apparently in the May 1938 issue of "Popular Aviation" magazine.   Noonan wrote:

"A set of marine charts, general, coastwise, and harbor, was carried; also aviation strip charts of the California coast.  The actual chart work was carried out on VP-3 and VP-4 Aircraft Plotting Sheets."  By working along the track from the Alameda to the left-hand border of the chart, then transferring that termination of the track back to the right border in the same latitude, and continuing in this manner, two sheets sufficed for the entire crossing."

--The "aviation strip charts" are mildly puzzling.  The USC&GS aeronautical charts for the period were called "airway maps" and covered the Pacific Coast, but they weren't really strip charts.  This 1933 example,  showing the Coast from San Francisco south, shows radio and visual aids to navigation:
https://historicalcharts.noaa.gov/historicals/preview/image/U-I-10-and-L--J-10-5-1933.
--The "marine charts" are presumably the usual HO and USC&GS products.  It is interesting that Noonan says he carried the detail charts.  The AE final flight equivalent would HO 1198.
--VP4 and VP6 are standard HO plotting sheets.  They have no geographic information, but the lat/lon lines are spaced in a Mercator projection for a particular range of latitudes.  In principle, the navigator traces or plots the landforms and beacons of interest onto his plotting sheet prior to departure, and then plots his position fixes as he travels.

adr

Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Kurt Kummer on October 13, 2016, 10:32:31 PM
Ric, would a trip to San Bruno be the next step?  The National Archives folks recommend a research appointment at least 10 working days in advance so they can be ready to assist with advice, assistance and have the relevant records available.  I would be happy to help if you'd like, and I've done genealogical research there before so I kind of know how the process works.

Kurt
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on October 14, 2016, 07:02:34 AM
Ric, would a trip to San Bruno be the next step?

"The time has come", the Walrus said.  Yes, thanks Kurt.  Based on the undated document Randy Jacobson provided, the staff at San Bruno is well-aware of the Murfin Map as one of its most fascinating holdings.  While you're there, let's also get the Lexington search map.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on October 14, 2016, 08:24:12 AM
A 1941 copy of the VP-4 plotting sheet that Noonan mentioned has turned up on Ebay.  This copy has the California coastline, along with some airports and radio station overprinted in a custom, probably Navy-only, style.     Several flights out of San Diego are hand plotted on the chart.    This is additional evidence that the HO turned out various bespoke or small-print-run charts for Naval use (like the Murfin Map) that were not sold to the public.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aircraft-Plotting-Sheet-California-No-VP-4-Sept-1941-WWII-Navy-Chart-Map-Chart-/262669881189?hash=item3d28584f65:g:XlwAAOSwNRdX9RZ3

The equivalent plotting sheet for the Lae-Howland leg would be VP-1, which covers 0-11 degrees latitude.  It would have been possible to use two plotting sheets, for North and South latitude, with some loss of precision,  move the equator one degree South on the plotting chart.  The southernmost location of the planned flight was Lae, (6.7 degrees South), and the northernmost location Howland (0.5 degrees North).

adr


Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on November 13, 2016, 08:57:07 AM
On November 9, Kurt Kummer visited the San Bruno National Archives and solved the Mystery of the Murfin Map.  When Randy Jacobson got a copy of the map all those years ago, he did not get copy of the top of the map because roughly one foot of the top was missing.  It had been cut off with an Xacto knife or similar blade.  Why?  And where did the missing section go?  Here's what happened.  (This is SO COOL.)

As Kurt explained,
"William Greene, an Archivist at NARA deserves all the credit.  He asked how it was going and I explained the dilemma.  "There should be a legend that tells us the name of this chart, but it's just not here.  It should be up in the top left corner, or the bottom right, or both but it isn't."  That's when Bill noticed that the extra piece along the bottom looked like it was glued on, and then we realized that it had been sliced off of the top, turned over, glued onto the bottom of the chart, and in one fell swoop the top legend was gone and the bottom one covered up.  A table lamp and then a light table confirmed it."  (photos below)

When the search managers at Pearl Harbor plotted the bearings taken by Pan Am on the post-loss radio signals they saw that the lines would cross off the bottom of the chart they had selected.  What to do?  They cut off the top of the chart, flipped it over, glued it to the bottom of the chart, and extended the latitude and longitude lines by hand.  When they saw where the lines crossed they drew in the locations of McKean and Gardner Islands.

So what chart is it?  (Drum roll.)  The envelope please:

No. 5050  Strategic Planning Chart No. 3  July 1924 Edition

Back on September 29, Reply #22, Art Rypinski wrote:
"The Lexington plotting chart, HO 5050, described by Randy would work nicely for FN (Lae is 6.7 degrees S, 147 degrees W), and it includes the Phoenix Islands.   The Murfin Map could only have been used in conjunction with some other chart for the first part of the Lae-Howland leg."

Apparently H.O. 5050 came in multiple sheets.  Sheet 3 did not include the Phoenix Group.

Great job Kurt!
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on November 13, 2016, 10:26:30 AM
HO 5050 doesn't appear in the 1939 catalog of published HO charts.   I don't think I have ever seen an image or description of HO 5050, other than Randy's letter, quoted earlier in this thread, which describes it as:

"Examining the Lexington search map, the fonts and locations of the islands on the Lex map match Murfin’s map.  The Lex map was produced by the Hydrographic Office, and is called a No. 5050, Strategic Plotting Chart No. 17, covering a bit below -8*S to 16*N, and 175*E to 147*W.  It too has a bit extended on the left hand side, but the chart is complete.  This chart covers the Phoenix Islands and has their positions and names.  The tick marks for longitude are located at -5*S and 10*N, and for latitude at 155 and 175* W.  What is different between the Murfin map and the Lex Map is “Pacific Ocean” is not on the Lex Map spanning the two circular plots."

There may be multiple sheets, but I thought HO 5050 would "do nicely" for Fred Noonan on the basis that it extended south to 8 degrees.  A chart to 16 degrees North would not cover the Hawaiian Islands, which are at 19 degrees North, so Noonan would need another chart for the Howland-Honolulu leg.    Lae is 147o W,  7o S.  Howland is 174oE, 1oN.  However, the Hull Island is roughly 172o W, 4oS, and Niku is 171oW, 3oS, so the Phoenix Group would be off the map to the East. 

Also note that if HO 5050 is dated 1924, it definitely would not have the advantage of any mid-1930s improvements in the position of Howland Island.  So, it might be worth checking the position of Howland, either on the Lexington search map, or any 1920-1933 era unrevised nautical chart.

Finally, my guess is that HO 5050 represents an earlier generation of plotting charts, replaced by the VP- and VR- series later used in WW2, beginning in the 1930s, and using updated base maps.  If Noonan obtained one or more unpublished plotting charts from the Navy (entirely possible but undocumented), it is anybody's guess whether he obtained the new ones or old ones.

adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on November 13, 2016, 10:53:14 AM
Great job Kurt!

Truly awesome.

Well done, Kurt!
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Bill Mangus on November 13, 2016, 11:08:52 AM
 :)  Amazing what smart, patient, observant people can do.  Very well done, Kurt  :)

Now if we could just find those pesky trunks!!
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on November 13, 2016, 02:21:54 PM
HO 5050 doesn't appear in the 1939 catalog of published HO charts.   I don't think I have ever seen an image or description of HO 5050, other than Randy's letter, quoted earlier in this thread, which describes it as:

"Examining the Lexington search map, the fonts and locations of the islands on the Lex map match Murfin’s map.  The Lex map was produced by the Hydrographic Office, and is called a No. 5050, Strategic Plotting Chart No. 17, covering a bit below -8*S to 16*N, and 175*E to 147*W.  It too has a bit extended on the left hand side, but the chart is complete.  This chart covers the Phoenix Islands and has their positions and names.  The tick marks for longitude are located at -5*S and 10*N, and for latitude at 155 and 175* W.  What is different between the Murfin map and the Lex Map is “Pacific Ocean” is not on the Lex Map spanning the two circular plots."

It seems apparent that H.O. 5050 as available in multiple numbered "sheets."  The sheets were undoubtedly periodically updated but it seems likely that the are covered by each sheet remained the same. 
Based on Randy's description of 5050 No. 17 and the Murfin map which we now know is 5050 No. 3, I plotted the dimensions of each chart and overlaid them on the 1935 Strategic Planning Chart we acquired a while back.  (I estimated the northern extent of the Murfin Map by measuring the bottom glued-on portion.  It should be pretty close. 
 
As you can see, 5050 No. 3 (the Murfin Map) is much bigger than than 5050 No. 17 (the Lexington search map).

There may be multiple sheets, but I thought HO 5050 would "do nicely" for Fred Noonan on the basis that it extended south to 8 degrees.
A chart to 16 degrees North would not cover the Hawaiian Islands, which are at 19 degrees North, so Noonan would need another chart for the Howland-Honolulu leg.

I agree.  5050 No. 17 was a good choice for the Lexington search but not for Noonan.  An H.O. 5050 sheet that covered a similar area to the west of No. 17 would be a good choice for Noonan for the early part of the flight.  H.O. 5050 No.3 would then get him the rest of the way to Howland and all the way to Oahu.  He would not have a chart that covered the Phoenix Group, but he didn't plan on going to the Phoenix Group.

BTW, on the 1935 chart Howland looks pretty good but Canton Island is almost 2° too far south.

Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Friend Weller on November 13, 2016, 07:16:58 PM
At the risk of having overlooked this detail, may I ask what the two red dots signify in the lower portion of HO. 5050 sheet 17?  I'm guessing that the left-hand one is Niku, but what is the one north of Canton Island?

Or do I need to get a bigger monitor?
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on November 13, 2016, 07:53:35 PM
At the risk of having overlooked this detail, may I ask what the two red dots signify in the lower portion of HO. 5050 sheet 17?  I'm guessing that the left-hand one is Niku, but what is the one north of Canton Island?

Wild guess: actual location of Canton vs. the one shown on the map. 

Earlier in the thread, Ric said the Canton location was off by 2 degrees.  I'll bet this fixes the error.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on November 14, 2016, 08:00:45 AM
Wild guess: actual location of Canton vs. the one shown on the map. 
Earlier in the thread, Ric said the Canton location was off by 2 degrees.  I'll bet this fixes the error.

Exactly right.  I plugged in the actual locations (little red dot) for Gardner and Canton.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on November 14, 2016, 09:40:11 PM


Noonan's chart problem was that his route ran along the equator, and the equator was the seam between "North Pacific" and "South Pacific" for HO nautical charts.  In addition, it would take days to steam across an HO chart, but only hours to fly across one. Both the North Pacific and South Pacific areas were divided into a series of West-to-East sheets.  Lae was probably on HO 824a or HO 825.

The route stayed South of the equator from Lae to the northern Solomons  to USS Ontario (3 degrees S), to the southern Gilberts (Tabituea, 1.3 degrees S), and I would think that Noonan would use a South Pacific chart for that part of the trip.  Howland, of course, sits just north of the equator (0.8 degrees N), but the route only crosses the equator roughly mid-way between the Gilberts and Howland.  Jarvis is 0.4 degrees South, and is included on HO 528 with a border bulge.

So, if Noonan was using a "South Pacific" HO chart for the last part of the flight (HO 825?), the chart would probably show the Phoenix Islands.  I can't be sure, because I don't know where the longitude of the boundaries between the various South Pacific sheets.   Also, Noonan may have cut and stitched the North Pacific and South Pacific sheets together, and chopped off or folded away some the places he never planned to visit.



 Here is something interesting Arthur,...the description of H.O. chart #825, [dated- July 1936], at the National Library in Australia. 

http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/27050200?q&versionId=32597972

http://www.rare-maps.com/details.cfm?type=maps&rid=1571062

 Chart #825 appears to cover the exact same territory as today's chart #622  http://frugalnavigator.com/products/622  .... E 147°--W 160°/​N 2°--S 60°...  it identifies the Phoenix Islands group to the viewer. 
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on November 15, 2016, 02:54:06 PM
Jerry-
After the Sept 21 post, I was able to find a paper copy of 1939 Hydrographic Office catalog which included an index map showing the actual extents of HO 825, consistent with the National Library of Australia catalog entry you found.  The news is that instead of dividing the Pacific at the equator, the HO put two degrees of North latitude on the top of the chart, just enough to pick up Howland and Baker. 

The picture on the rare maps website is the first visual image I have seen of this chart.  It is too bad that they are selling the 1925 version, rather than the 1934 version that would have been current when AE was planning her flight. I expect the locations of islands on HO 5050 (which is also mid-1920s) were taken from the 1925 version of HO 825.   

As you observed, the contemporary 622 has the same extents as HO 825, including Howland and Baker at the top of the chart.

On HO 825, there is a little blur between the Phoenix Group and Howland, which is presumably Winslow Reef, which nobody could find during the Earhart search.  Recent research indicates that Winslow Reef is real:  a seamount that reaches within 11 meters of the surface. 
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 06, 2016, 01:31:11 PM
Interesting Arthur, that they added the two degrees above the equator....Does anyone know when and where this photo capture was taken of Earhart with a seemingly huge roll of maps and charts beneath her arm? With the archs on the buildings and some detail I can see, it almost appears to be a Southern setting.....looks like she was ready to do her homework, at any rate.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 06, 2016, 01:34:05 PM
Does anyone know when and where this photo capture was taken of Earhart with a seemingly huge roll of maps and charts beneath her arm? With the archs on the buildings and some detail I can see, it almost appears to be a Southern setting.....looks like she was ready to do her homework, at any rate.

I think that's Union Air Terminal, Burbank.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Harbert William Davenport on December 06, 2016, 05:52:06 PM
Here's a 1935 photo of the Union Air Terminal, from the street side:

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15799coll65/id/25827/rec/2 (http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15799coll65/id/25827/rec/2)

Photos of the Terminal building from the runway are not so easy to find. It's usually only partially shown, in the background.  The Timeline already has some of those, I think.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on December 06, 2016, 08:13:03 PM
Check out that zipper to her jacket and those shoes....

amck
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 07, 2016, 02:54:38 PM
Jerry-
After the Sept 21 post, I was able to find a paper copy of 1939 Hydrographic Office catalog which included an index map showing the actual extents of HO 825, consistent with the National Library of Australia catalog entry you found.  The news is that instead of dividing the Pacific at the equator, the HO put two degrees of North latitude on the top of the chart, just enough to pick up Howland and Baker. 

The picture on the rare maps website is the first visual image I have seen of this chart.  It is too bad that they are selling the 1925 version, rather than the 1934 version that would have been current when AE was planning her flight. I expect the locations of islands on HO 5050 (which is also mid-1920s) were taken from the 1925 version of HO 825.   

As you observed, the contemporary 622 has the same extents as HO 825, including Howland and Baker at the top of the chart.

On HO 825, there is a little blur between the Phoenix Group and Howland, which is presumably Winslow Reef, which nobody could find during the Earhart search.  Recent research indicates that Winslow Reef is real:  a seamount that reaches within 11 meters of the surface.

This site has a map from 1936 for sale.....

https://copiesdirect.nla.gov.au/items/import?source=cat&sourcevalue=4502949

It would be interesting to view.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on December 08, 2016, 07:23:53 PM
Jerry-
That is a good find.  I spent a fair amount of time messing around with NLA website, and I can't exactly figure out how you found this chart.  The search engine keeps yielding unexpected (to me) results, with particular charts appearing and disappearing.  The NLA apparently has an extensive library of US and British nautical charts, but most of the charts aren't individually catalogued--instead, there is a single item for HO charts, and another single item for all Admiralty charts.  You are then invited to download a spreadsheet which lists the actual charts: 2800 line items for HO charts, and about 30,000 items (!) for Admiralty charts.  There are period nautical charts of the Phoenix Group in the Admiralty listing.

However, the chart you found is a duplicate in a special collection, so it gets its own listing.  Using your link, I attempted to buy a hi-res TIFF file to download, but failed:  my various VISA cards didn't seem to work.  Tomorrow, I will send an email of enquiry, and ask about some of the other interesting charts.

Of course, as in any catalog, it is easy to get off track.  There are lots of interesting on-line charts in the NLA collection.  For example:
http://archival-classic.sl.nsw.gov.au/album/albumView.aspx?itemID=918614&acmsid=0

This 1929 Admiralty nautical chart was used by somebody actually navigate a flight from Iraq to Karachi, and at least plan an onward trip to Calcutta and then Australia.  To see the penciled markings, use the "zoomify" option, and look in the upper left hand corner by the Persian Gulf.  It would be interesting to know whose chart this was, and how it ended up inte National Library of New South Wales. (Not the NLA).  And the big red spill on Hong Kong--to bright to be blood.  Hydraulic fluid?  Or raspberry sherbert?

adr



Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 17, 2016, 10:20:43 AM
Larry Inman drew my attention to this undated photo showing AE and FN in front of the plane's vertical fin with a map that appears to show the rote of the world flight - but which world flight?  The route across the U.S. appears to go Oakland, Lafayette, IN (Purdue), Miami - or vice versa.  I don't recall the planned route across the U.S. for the conclusion of the east to west first attempt but the "secret" beginning of second attempt went Oakland, Burbank, Tucson, New Orleans, Miami.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on December 17, 2016, 10:56:01 AM
Ric-
So, the eagle logo in the upper left hand corner indicates that the chart is a US Navy hydrographic office product, according to my recently acquired catalog, most likely HO 1262, "Track Chart of the World."   Here is an attractive and colorful 1961 edition of the same chart from the David Rumsey collection:

http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/workspace/handleMediaPlayer;JSESSIONID=ad5ad71b-5995-443e-966a-a150fb848f8a?qvq=&trs=&mi=&lunaMediaId=RUMSEY~8~1~266201~5524911

This is not, of course, a navigation chart, though it might be useful to note where one's planned track crossed shipping routes.    Rather, it is a map one would show to the press and potential donors to show the route.   It would be helpful to know the circumstances under which the photo was taken, but my guess would be that a flight path passing through Lafayette, IN would be something that one might show to the Purdue crowd.  It might even have something to do with the very quiet departure from Burbank on the second attempt.

adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 17, 2016, 12:53:06 PM
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/1148/rec/4

I found this map in the Purdue files, prepared for Earhart by Clarence Williams, I don't know if this is the final version of the route on the first attempt, but looks like a path coming up from the south instead of across the U.S.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 17, 2016, 01:19:02 PM
This insert in the New York Herald Tribune ; http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/earhart/id/3763/rec/46  ....preflight advertising publicity.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 18, 2016, 07:13:36 AM
Looks like the same route as shown on the map in the photo.  However, if the photo was taken prior to the first attempt it had to have been taken between March 13 when Noonan first joined the enterprise and March 17 when they left for Honolulu.  All the other photos I've seen taken during those few days show all four of the people who would make the flight - AE, Mantz, Manning and Noonan.  The presence in this photo of only Eahart and Noonan makes me suspect that this photo dates from April or May.  It's clearly a posed photo-op.  They haven't yet announced the change in direction so they're using a chart that shows the old route.

Incidentally, the original plan for the world flight was for it to begin and end at Purdue.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on December 19, 2016, 08:39:53 AM
I have finally succeeded in ordering a copy of HO 825, 1st edition 1934, revisions through 1941, "Southern Pacific, Sheet 3" from the National Library of Australia in the form of a high-resolution TIFF file, cost AU$ 45.   Some person in Canberra must now extract the map from where it now sleeps, run it through a large format scanner, and post the file somewhere for me to download.  The NLA writes that it will take a few weeks. 

The NLA does not have a copy of any edition of HO 1262, "Tracking Chart of the World."     However, I was able to find an image of a 1943 edition in an old Ebay auction.  This version shows the shipping routes as an overprint on a base map HO 1262a, "Outline Chart of the World," and it does not resemble the chart Earhart is holding in the photo.  There is no logo in the upper left corner, and there are two sets of titles, the original and the overprint.  However, I hypothesize that this is a hasty wartime revision, and that the pre-war HO 1262 more closely resembles the photo, the post-war version and other pre-1930 US and British charts with the same title.


Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on December 23, 2016, 09:29:00 AM
Okay, the National Library of Australia took my money, promptly scanned HO825, the 1941 version, and  gave me access to a download site.  The scanned file was 1.7 GB in TIFF format, and the download site was was limited to about 0.1 mb/second.  However, after a few hours, I had the file in hand, which declined to load in my rinky-dink image editing software.  After another day or so, I was able to dig out some 64-bit software that could actually display a file of that size.  It is still not clear (to me) whether this is a color or grayscale image.  I think the file may have the different color bands stored independently, and thus far I have only seen the "blue" color band.    I have ordered a hefty memory upgrade, and will later will obtain some commercial image-editing software.

  In the mean time, I attach a jpeg of the top of HO 825 in grayscale.   This is ample to show the extents of the chart, which islands are shown, which islands are labeled, and the positions of the islands shown.   While it will likely to be impossible to know for sure what chart(s) Mr. Noonan used, IMHO, this chart is the most likely:  it was readily available (price $0.70) in a recent edition (1936) and covered the entire route of the Lae-Howland leg on one piece of paper.  It also included the islands of the Phoenix Group, with both the name of the group and the names of the individual islands (including Gardner) listed.  It also has Nukumanu labeled, which may be perhaps be significant.

I later discovered that the National Library has the also has 1936 edition, which, of course, is the one we really want.  I do not think that there are any substantive differences for our purposes between the two versions, but given the debates on "what the charts show"  it seems best to go and get the 1936 edition.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on December 23, 2016, 09:30:01 AM
herewith a jpeg of the bottom of the chart, covering the dates and revisions...
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 23, 2016, 10:32:32 AM
While it will likely to be impossible to know for sure what chart(s) Mr. Noonan used, IMHO, this chart is the most likely:  it was readily available (price $0.70) in a recent edition (1936) and covered the entire route of the Lae-Howland leg on one piece of paper.  It also included the islands of the Phoenix Group, with both the name of the group and the names of the individual islands (including Gardner) listed. 

I think you've established that there was a chart available that covered the entire route of the Lae-Howland leg on one piece of paper but it may be fair to ask whether that was desirable given the confines of the working space aboard the Electra.  I imagine H.O. 825 is a rather large piece of paper.

For both the crossing from Oakland to Honolulu in March and for the South Atlantic crossing from Brazil to Senegal in June, Noonan used at least two charts rather than one that covered the entire route.

It also has Nukumanu labeled, which may be perhaps be significant.

It may be an argument against H.O. 825.  Earhart gave a position report (POSITION 4.33 SOUTH 159.7 EAST HEIGHT 8000 FEET OVER CUMULUS CLOUDS WIND 23 KNOTS) that roughly corresponds to the Nukumanu group but she didn't say anything about the islands.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 23, 2016, 07:50:21 PM
Thank you for providing the information,Arthur, and going through personal expense to do so. In the sale description, it mentions the map as being 118 cm x 81 cm ...conversion for us old guys, who haven't learned the metric system, it comes out to being a map about 46 inches x 32 inches.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 26, 2016, 08:04:20 AM
Thank you for providing the information,Arthur, and going through personal expense to do so. In the sale description, it mentions the map as being 118 cm x 81 cm ...conversion for us old guys, who haven't learned the metric system, it comes out to being a map about 46 inches x 32 inches.

The width of the Electra cabin in the area of the navigator's station is 46 inches.  The width of half of the cockpit (if Noonan is holding a map while sitting in the right seat) is 27 inches.

I don't recall the dimensions of H.O. 5050  Strategic Planning Chart No. 3  July 1924 Edition (the "Murfin Map") but, from this photo taken by Kurt Kummer, it's clearly much smaller.

Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on December 26, 2016, 08:29:29 PM
After a memory upgrade and developing some minor knowledge of GIMP, I have wrestled the 1.9 GB file from the National Library of Australia down to a 6 MB jpeg or so, in color, with the various labels still readable. 

Getting the file down to a manageable size, however, makes it much easier to look at the contents.  The file from Australia was named PGTaylor, and the penciled initials "PGT" appear twice on the lower right corner.   I concluded that the this particular chart was used by a notable Australian aviator, Gordon Taylor, aka Sir Patrick Gordon Taylor, MC, OBE, GC (1896-1966).  Taylor deposited his papers with the National Library.   Taylor learned to fly with the RFC in World War I, and was credited with five kills.  After World War I, he studied engineering and air navigation, and became a line pilot for Kingsford-Smith and Ulm's Australian National Airways.  He served as co-pilot and navigator for both Kingsford-Smith and Ulm on many of their pioneering flights.  During World War II, commissioned in the RAAF and later the RAF, he flew flying boats between the United States and Australia. There is a current biography of Taylor in print:  "The Man Who Saved Smithy."

Taylor apparently used the chart to navigate several flights out of Samoa, including a flights to Palmerston Island, Fiji, New Caledonia, and Sydney, using (it appears) dead reckoning, celestial navigation, and compass bearings on lighthouses and landmarks, presumably circa 1942.  The chart is creased, and clearly was at one time folded into several sections. Possibly Taylor dealt with the size of the chart by folding it, a technique also available to Fred Noonan.  The piece of HO 825 that would have been of interest to Noonan is the top 12" or so  of the chart, along with the 32" width.

adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 27, 2016, 08:22:10 PM
Thank you Arthur, for sharing the interesting history tied to the map. Curiosity about what size/ style maps Noonan may have used during both flight attempts, (I always thought he used strips of areas), and whether they might be user friendly in the cramped Electra, compelled me to do a google search, and one site I came across that mentioned maps Noonan used was this one; https://sites.google.com/site/fredienoonan/discussions/navigation-to-dakar
and this link;https://sites.google.com/site/fredie8799e/atlantic-crossing , mentions an Atlantic map used on the second flight and mailed back after use as being about 43 in x 35 in...so if this information is correct , we seem to have an example of a map close to the size of #825 in use by Noonan.
I attached a few images of map usage by Manning and some maps in the cabin with Bo Mcnealy, ( Earhart mechanic), that appear fair size, so I don't know as we could rule out # 825 due to it's dimensions, however; up until now, studying Purdue photos and viewing other sources of information, haven't provided conclusive evidence that Noonan had this map aboard, though it would seem to be an ideal one, .....still looking.
This site; http://www.oceangrafix.com/chart/detail/125-North-Atlantic-Ocean-Southeastern-Sheet has Map 956a for sale, the same version used by Noonan.
 ( larger image)  http://www.paracay.com/store/images/thumbnails/1000/1000/detailed/23/125.jpg
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 30, 2016, 10:16:56 PM
Looking at the map that Noonan mailed back to the states, it looks unevenly folded, as the crease lines don't line up with the borders or Longitude/latitude lines. I wondered if this was due to the map being persuaded into a flat small envelope, instead of inserted into a cylindrical tube. My search of map images in the Purdue files and other sources, yielded no cylindrical tubes used by the Electra crew, rather most images show maps loosely rolled, and having no protective covers. My initial Purdue files search was with the hopes of catching a glimpse of any maps with numbers carried by Earhart or Noonan, but have thus far yielded negative results. One topic point in this thread was map size, ....I have attached a Purdue held image, whereby it appears a map held under Fred's arm seems quite large, and un-neatly folded, so , it may be that perfectly folded maps weren't a priority. One interesting item on map 956a returned by, Noonan, is the name of a company that supplied maps and nautical instruments to those searching to secure such. Louis Weule Co, in San Francisco. It would be interesting to find out if they have any records pertaining to Noonan and any subsequent purchases by him. They do have searchable archives, http://www.oac.cdlib.org/view?docId=kt4s203874&developer=local&style=oac4&s=1&query=Earhart&servlet=view&x=12&y=13 , but they seem to end in 1920. Further research may produce results.
Link to map returned by Noonan, that bears the Weule Co stamp  .... https://sites.google.com/site/fredie8799e/atlantic-crossing.... click on SA 3 jpg to view download.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on March 07, 2017, 11:31:53 PM
The NLA does not have a copy of any edition of HO 1262, "Tracking Chart of the World."     However, I was able to find an image of a 1943 edition in an old Ebay auction.  This version shows the shipping routes as an overprint on a base map HO 1262a, "Outline Chart of the World," and it does not resemble the chart Earhart is holding in the photo.  There is no logo in the upper left corner, and there are two sets of titles, the original and the overprint.  However, I hypothesize that this is a hasty wartime revision, and that the pre-war HO 1262 more closely resembles the photo, the post-war version and other pre-1930 US and British charts with the same title.

Arthur,

NARA has a good older version of a HO 1262a map in it's holdings,(1925-1936) and one very old version ( 1891)..here are a few images; ( all map images credit to NARA)

Did anyone notice a Barbara Island NE of ( Holland) Howland Island on the 1891 map? Wonder what happened to that?
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on March 07, 2017, 11:54:13 PM
Mention of HO 5050 series maps, plotting versions and such, ...these turned up at NARA..... 1932 version

All map image credit goes to NARA
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on March 07, 2017, 11:59:17 PM
continued;
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on March 08, 2017, 12:15:26 AM
Plotting Chart # 3  1933 version
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on March 08, 2017, 12:20:38 AM
Plotting chart # 17 1933 Version
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on March 08, 2017, 09:48:12 AM


The NLA does not have a copy of any edition of HO 1262, "Tracking Chart of the World."     However, I was able to find an image of a 1943 edition in an old Ebay auction.  This version shows the shipping routes as an overprint on a base map HO 1262a, "Outline Chart of the World," and it does not resemble the chart Earhart is holding in the photo. 

Here are some images of 1262b;

( All map images credit NARA)
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on March 11, 2017, 10:19:51 AM
Jerry-

Thanks for your efforts.  Did you recover those images on-line, or did you make a personal visit to the archives? 

So, your new information adds to our understanding of plotting charts.   My 1939 catalog does not offer HO5050 or any of its sheets:  therefore, I conclude that HO5050 was withdrawn from public sale at some point between 1933 and 1939.   As I have noted elsewhere, there is no special information on the plotting sheets, indeed, they contain less information than the nautical charts.   I believe they were intended as a convenience item.  Hence, there is no particular reason not to provide them to the public, and I doubt that Earhart or Noonan would have any particular difficulty in getting hold of copies if they wanted them.

HO5050 sheet #3, as you pictures show, cuts off at 2.5 degrees S, so it couldn't be used for the early part of the flight.  As Ric notes, Sheet #3 does not show the Phoenix Islands.
It doesn't include Lae, New Britain, or Bougainville.  So, IF Noonan used this chart, he would still need  another chart for the first part of the flight. 

Your index map shows that there are one or more HO 5050 sheets that cover New Guinea, but I can't quite parse it/them from the graphic.  I think #19?

HO 5050 sheet 17 covers both North and South of Howland from the Line Islands to the Phoenix Islands.  AE & FN would fly onto the map from the West near the Gilberts.  It looks like a better choice to me for the last part of the flight than Sheet #3, because it allows for plotting positions both North and South of Howland.  As in the case of #3, he would still need another chart for the first part of the flight.

Your images of a 1930s vintage HO 1262 identify the chart in the AE photo Ric posted pretty conclusively as HO 1262.

Lastly, I would note that Noonan's description of the charts he carried for the earlier Hawaii flight suggest that he was carrying a lot of charts that he was unlikely to actually need--particularly local nautical charts.    This proves nothing about the Howland leg, but does suggest to me that Noonan's inclination would be to carry more charts rather than less.

adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on March 11, 2017, 04:02:38 PM

Jerry-

Thanks for your efforts.  Did you recover those images on-line, or did you make a personal visit to the archives? 


Your images of a 1930s vintage HO 1262 identify the chart in the AE photo Ric posted pretty conclusively as HO 1262.

Lastly, I would note that Noonan's description of the charts he carried for the earlier Hawaii flight suggest that he was carrying a lot of charts that he was unlikely to actually need--particularly local nautical charts.    This proves nothing about the Howland leg, but does suggest to me that Noonan's inclination would be to carry more charts rather than less.

adr

Thanks Arthur,

 From all the information gathered, it appears the map that Earhart and Noonan hold for the photo op, is indeed H.O. 1262a.... I had looked for information on line, but didn't find what I was looking for. A friend was planning a trip to the area, and he had time to stop into NARA with my wish list and found many of the items I was looking for. Map 825 also was available, and wish I would have found it before you had to make use of your credit card. I have some images of that map as well, but you posted some fine examples already.

Jerry
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Kurt Kummer on March 12, 2017, 07:31:27 PM
Thanks Jerry.  I particularly like seeing the 1932 map showing how the HO 5050 sheets were laid out across the Pacific.  Great job!
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on March 13, 2017, 02:56:47 PM
Thanks Jerry.  I particularly like seeing the 1932 map showing how the HO 5050 sheets were laid out across the Pacific.  Great job!

You're welcome,  but,I must give a whole ton of credit to the friend who went to NARA and took the photos and found the maps we were looking for, without his efforts, I would be forever searching the net.
I enjoyed that index map as well, an unexpected find, a big help to those who wanted to narrow down their plotting to a specific area, without going through all the sheets to find the one wanted.

Stay tuned, more maps on the way.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on March 13, 2017, 03:23:01 PM
Okay, after studying the HO 5050 index map a bit longer, it looks like the best choices for the Howland flight would have been a combination of HO 5050 sheet 16 and HO5050 sheet 17.  Both charts cover from about 18 degrees N latitude to 8 degrees south.  Sheet 16 runs from Lae to the Gilberts, and Sheet 17 runs from the Gilberts to the Line Islands, and includes Howland and the Phoenix Group.  A third chart would be needed for the Howland-Honolulu leg.  Most of what passed for alternates to Howland are on Sheet 17.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on March 13, 2017, 11:03:13 PM
Art,
 
Looking back , I see your H.O. map 825 is a 1941 version, ....below are images of a 1923 version found at NARA, by again, my very capable and determined friend.

All map images credit NARA, a very wonderful place.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on March 13, 2017, 11:09:50 PM
images continued;

All map images credit NARA

Notation by Gardner Is.
( Kemins Is.)
 Trees (40)
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on March 14, 2017, 11:23:43 AM
Thanks, Jerry.
One of the very minor Earhart mysteries we are now in a position to address is:  "Might errors on charts have contributed to AE & FN's navigation problems?"  Elgen Long writes, "Howland Island is actually about six statute miles East of the position shown on the chart."  He then goes on to argue, inter alia, that the chart error offset Noonan's "Zone of Uncertainty," reducing the probability that a local search would find Howland.   As we have seen, which chart is "the chart" isn't actually known, and there are several possible choices. 

This particular problem is exacerbated because Howland and the Phoenix Group were not particularly well mapped in the early 1930s.  The development of aviation suddenly made these islands much more important, and by 1939 various islands had been visited and resurveyed by Pan American, as well as the British and American Governments.  Several islands were occupied.  Thus, by 1940, the position of the islands was likely known as accurately as possible with the methods of the day.  However, Earhart's flight took place right in the middle of this process, and it has always been unclear (to me) exactly how quickly the additional geographic knowledge was incorporated in the charts of the day.   We can now overlay successive HO charts, and see if Howland and the Phoenix Group moved over time, and how their charted position compares with the current location.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Friend Weller on March 14, 2017, 06:18:39 PM
"Might errors on charts have contributed to AE & FN's navigation problems?"

Add to the positional inaccuracies the issue the Gardner/Kremins Island wasn't displayed in it's correct shape on many maps.  (IIRC, it wasn't until after the New Zealand party reported their findings and the shape/lagoon was corrected on maps in 1938).
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on March 14, 2017, 10:05:59 PM
Here is map HO 1198 showing Howland and Baker; circa 1916-1925

Again , all map images credit due NARA
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on March 29, 2017, 06:20:16 PM
Okay, after studying the HO 5050 index map a bit longer, it looks like the best choices for the Howland flight would have been a combination of HO 5050 sheet 16 and HO5050 sheet 17.  Both charts cover from about 18 degrees N latitude to 8 degrees south.  Sheet 16 runs from Lae to the Gilberts, and Sheet 17 runs from the Gilberts to the Line Islands, and includes Howland and the Phoenix Group.  A third chart would be needed for the Howland-Honolulu leg.  Most of what passed for alternates to Howland are on Sheet 17.

Arthur,

Here is Plotting chart number 16

Map images courtesy NARA;
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on April 06, 2017, 09:27:56 PM
Here is a nice little map H.O 124

Map images courtesy of NARA

The map makers didn't do too bad a job depicting Gardners shape ( needs a little tweeking)....tree height mentioned
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on April 07, 2017, 07:00:24 PM
With all this map talk, I skimmed through some more images , trying to find additional images of Earhart and Noonan carrying maps aboard the Electra. I could be way, way off on this one,( it could just be a record case or something), but upon looking at the image where Earhart is posed packing her clothing for the trip, we see another suitcase (for lack of a better identifier), sitting on the floor in front of her. What are the objects in and beside the case? Are they maps attached to folded pieces of cardboard, along with a couple of large atlas books inside the case? It may or may not indicate the size of the maps she took aboard,...just throwing it out there. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jon Romig on April 07, 2017, 07:53:56 PM
I could be way, way off on this one,( it could just be a record case or something),
If by record case you mean phonograph records, I think the proportions are wrong (too long compared to height).

It looks like a custom flight case but sized for (and containing) a larger than usual number of maps and atlases. Note the bias (slope) of the top of the case body that makes access to the maps easier.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on April 07, 2017, 08:03:13 PM
I could be way, way off on this one,( it could just be a record case or something),
If by record case you mean phonograph records, I think the proportions are wrong (too long compared to height). It looks like an early version of a document briefcase but sized for (and containing) maps and atlases.

My bad.....yes 78's or other phonograph records of the era.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jon Romig on April 07, 2017, 08:19:31 PM
It seems odd to me that Amelia would have all these maps rather than Fred. Could it be a travel set of fabrication drawings for the Electra?
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on April 07, 2017, 10:45:57 PM
My best guess would be, The party organizing the photo op, wanted a capture trying to convince the viewers of the seemingly preparedness of the subject. "I'm taking all essentials!" Nice catch by the way Jon, I hadn't noticed the sloping top before, it would make for easier access to objects front and back.( noted by red lines).
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on April 09, 2017, 09:18:30 PM
If by record case you mean phonograph records, I think the proportions are wrong (too long compared to height).

It looks like a custom flight case but sized for (and containing) a larger than usual number of maps and atlases. Note the bias (slope) of the top of the case body that makes access to the maps easier.

It appears the case with whatever it is inside, is part of the Earhart luggage line. It has identical design lines, etc ,as the ones she is sitting on and are beside her, in her advertising photo....(see attachment). I haven't found an ad where it identifies this particular style case though, all have been other use designations. I don't know if she repurposed this case to hold the objects we see in it, or if she designed it for that purpose originally ( to hold books, magazines, papers, etc). Looking in old ads, trying to find that particular case.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Matt Revington on April 10, 2017, 09:49:41 AM
It looks like the bag made to the airport for a photo shoot, I'm fairly sure this is it. We need to remember that Fred was only with her on the world flight.  AE flew the Electra to Purdue, around the midwest in the fall of 1936 and other flights without  Fred where she would need her own maps and other documents
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on April 10, 2017, 11:27:56 PM

 I don't know if she repurposed this case to hold the objects we see in it, or if she designed it for that purpose originally ( to hold books, magazines, papers, etc). Looking in old ads, trying to find that particular case.

No luck in my search yet, ....one site showed an assortment of sizes and shapes, from hat boxes along with regular looking suitcases,but one carrying case did have a similar top as the one we are discussing, that was labeled as a dress carrying case, but I don't believe the article we are looking at would be that. I did find she didn't design the luggage, but did have some requirements if she were too have her name attached to them... https://www.kovels.com/collectors-questions/amelia-earhart-luggage.html , so that dispels my thought about her designing a literature carrying case for herself or the populous.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on April 10, 2017, 11:57:34 PM
Here is a phonograph record carrying case. As Jon mentioned, the one Earhart has seems to long to be that, though shaped the same as the smaller one shown below. Did they make double length examples, for those who had large record collections?
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Daniel R. Brown on April 11, 2017, 01:33:04 PM
This photo legend (3_12_37 Oakland Tribune ) says the suitcase is to hold maps.

Dan Brown, #2408
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on April 12, 2017, 11:21:02 AM
Thanks Daniel,  That answers some questions I had concerning that item. There are several images , whereby she is looking at maps, ( with cylindrical tubes nearby)....but it looks as if she decided on this apparatus to carry them aboard, at least during the initial planning. I haven't seen the case in later images, during the second attempt, still looking for any, but she may have abandoned that means of carrying them by then.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on April 12, 2017, 03:48:02 PM
Thanks Daniel,  That answers some questions I had concerning that item. There are several images , whereby she is looking at maps, ( with cylindrical tubes nearby)....but it looks as if she decided on this apparatus to carry them aboard, at least during the initial planning. I haven't seen the case in later images, during the second attempt, still looking for any, but she may have abandoned that means of carrying them by then.


Fred was navigating on the second flight.  He probably had the maps and his own method of carrying them around with him.

Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on April 19, 2017, 10:46:27 PM
Here is another image of Earhart with that unusual style case ( see attachment)....with Noonan and Manning aboard. I wonder what maps either of them had along, but it seems Earhart was prepared map wise, to go the rest of the way after dropping her passengers off. Seems a rather large map rolled up ( red arrow) leaning against the assemblage of goods. Appears she didn't have any qualms about taking larger maps aboard. 
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on April 21, 2017, 10:34:58 AM
Sometimes these little details are more of a curiosity than of importance, ...but just noticing the little ribbon like feature that is attached to the handle of the case, makes me wonder what is on the other end , if anything. In the first attachment , the ribbon is draped over the edge and the end of it goes inside the case. In the second, it appears as if something is in Earhart's hand as she begins to open the lid. Key? Tag?  Just a conversation item.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on April 21, 2017, 12:55:08 PM
I would guess key.

My dad had several metal boxes with slanted lids like the case in the photos, in which he mostly kept maps and other papers he needed in his paleontology field camps, and they all had a lock with a key.

Andrew
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Arthur Rypinski on April 23, 2017, 06:16:20 AM
I would guess that the map box is a piece of custom luggage made for Earhart by Orenstein, who made and sold "Amelia Earhart" luggage.   There is an interesting illustrated account of Earhart's dealings with Orenstein in Barbara Schultz' "Endorsed by Earhart."   

I suspect (but don't know) that the contents were the collection of strip maps, airport diagrams, and other information produced for the first world flight by Clarence Williams, much of which ended up at Purdue.  Each envelope perhaps contained material for a specific phase of the trip. 

Note that the pile by the aircraft  includes an ungodly long roll of paper that is presumably contains maps that are much wider than the width of an Electra cockpit.

adr
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Jerry Germann on April 23, 2017, 08:55:13 AM
I haven't seen the case in later images, during the second attempt, still looking for any, but she may have abandoned that means of carrying them by then.

Then again, in this image thought to be taken just before the second attempt, it appears it is still part of the items she plans on taking with her the second go around. Maybe a revision of the map list and contents though this time, because of the course change. This bulletin https://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/18_FireExtinguisher/18_Fireext.html seems to verify the time when this photo was taken.
Title: Re: Research Needed - H.O Chart #1198
Post by: Matt Revington on May 26, 2017, 02:00:14 PM
On the Luke field inventory

"51   1   "   Carrying case with key containing 14 folders" "

As Jerry noted in an earlier post the ribbon attached to the handle  of the case visible in some photos likely was there to hold the key, so it was brought on the first attempt, since AE had Manning and Noonan on that flight it would seem likely that it didn't hold maps but maybe other necessary documents and perhaps manuals for the electra and other onboard equipment.