TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Ric Gillespie on February 17, 2016, 04:34:36 PM
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I've started a new thread in a (probably futile) attempt to avoid confusion and make it easier to find stuff later.
Here's a preliminary timeline for August and September.
August 2
Earhart and McLeod make a 1 hour and 55 minute flight to Mills Field, San Francisco.
August 3
Earhart and McLeod fly the Electra across the bay to Alameda to see Elmer Dimity’s big parachute and fog dispeller. The airplane is marked X16020
August 7
The aircraft is inspected by the Bureau of Air Commerce and approved for registration number R16020.
August 18
The aircraft is issued a Bureau of Air Commerce license as R16020. "Restricted for long distance flights and research. No persons may be carried except bone-fide members of the crew."
August 29
AE flies the Electra nonstop from Burbank to Kansas City on her way to Floyd Bennett Field to enter the Bendix race. Mantz and McKneely are with her. (Butler, page 364. No citation)
Sept. 4
Bendix race. Helen Richey accompanies her as copilot. She is back in California at the end of the race.
Sept. 20
At Purdue with the Electra
Sept. 29
At a Roosevelt campaign event on Sept 29 in Syracuse NY
Oct. 2-30
Lecture tour by car.
November 7
Earhart attends a football game in Baltimore. She isn't back on the west coast until on or about November 19
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According to the wiki page the principal photography for Love on the Run was from August 15 to Sept 16, since the Electra was already painted for the Bendix race it is probable that it's use for the film was between August 15 and early Sept.
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According to the wiki page the principal photography for Love on the Run was from August 15 to Sept 16, since the Electra was already painted for the Bendix race it is probable that it's use for the film was between August 15 and early Sept.
I think the probable window is a little tighter than that. The airplane didn't get its license to carry the number R16020 until August 18 and if Butler is correct, AE, Mantz, and McNeely flew it to Kansas City on August 29, so that's roughly a ten-day period. I wonder if AE and Putnam were out of town during that time. I wouldn't put it past Paul to say, "What the hell. It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission." I just can't see AE and Putnam condoning that use of the airplane.
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AE gave an interview to a labour/left wing paper on Sept 11
http://depts.washington.edu/labhist/laborpress/VoiceofAction.htm
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I wouldn't put it past Paul to say, "What the hell. It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission." I just can't see AE and Putnam condoning that use of the airplane.
I'll ask my friend if there are any Mantz family stories about this...
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AE gave an interview to a labour/left wing paper on Sept 11
Unfortunately there is no mention of where or how she did the interview. The Voice of Action office was in Seattle. Did they come to her in California or was she in Seattle on a lecture tour? The interview could have been by phone but "long-distance" was expensive.
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VIEWS EARHART PLANE (Logansport [IN] Press, Friday, 8/21/36)
Los Angeles, Aug. 20 (AP) —Dr. Edward C. Elliott, president of Purdue University, Lafayette, Ind., arrived today to inspect the $80,000 "flying laboratory" which Amelia Earhart, aviatrix, will use in experimental flights. The institution will sponsor her experimental work. (An undated UP [sic, i.e. not AP] photo of AE with Elliott was published in the 8/27/36 Berkeley [CA] Daily Gazette: "Dr. Elliot [sic] visited the "classroom" at Burbank, Calif.")
No mention of AE in the on-line newspaper archive during the period between 8/20 and 8/29.
Many articles in Associated Press-affiliated newspapers document the trip from Burbank to New York:
MISS EARHART LEAVES WEST FOR NEW YORK (Biloxi Daily Herald, Saturday, August 29, 1936)
Burbank, Calif., Aug. 29—(AP)—Amelia Earhart took off at 7:34 a.m. (10:34 Eastern Standard Time,) today in her new "flying laboratory" bound for New York
and the start of the trans-continental Bendix trophy race Sept. 4. Miss Earhart plans to make her first stop at Kansas City where Paul Mantz, her technical advisor, will leave the plane and return to Los Angeles. The third passenger aboard the big $100,000 transport sponsored by Purdue University was C. Mc-
Nieley [sic], mechanic. The lateness of Miss Earhart's hopoff this morning apparently precluded an attempt at speed records.
[Landed Kansas City 5:40 p.m. Aug. 29 after non-stop flight from Burbank. Both motors were leaking oil and mechanics were seeking the cause. One or possibly two stops planned on flight to New York August 30. (Jefferson City [MO] Sunday News and Tribune, 8/30/36)]
[Cleveland, Aug. 30 (AP) - landed Cleveland 7:30 pm EST 8/30/36.]
Cleveland, Aug. 31 (AP) - took off today for New York in her "flying laboratory" plane, after an unexpected stop here yesterday for work on the plane's motor.
Amelia Earhart Reaches New York
BROOKLYN. Aug. 31.—(AP)—Mrs. Amelia Earhart Putnam arrived at Floyd Bennett airfield at 9 a.m., (CST) today after a flight of two hours, 15 minutes from Cleveland. She is an entrant in the Bendlx air race which will be flown from New York to Los Angeles Sept. 4.
Dan Brown, #2408
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Excellent Dan.
Here's an updated chronology:
August 2
Earhart and McLeod make a 1 hour and 55 minute flight to Mills Field, San Francisco.
August 3
Earhart and McLeod fly the Electra across the bay to Alameda to see Elmer Dimity’s big parachute and fog dispeller. The airplane is marked X16020
August 7
The aircraft is inspected by the Bureau of Air Commerce and approved for registration number R16020.
August 18
The aircraft is issued a Bureau of Air Commerce license as R16020. "Restricted for long distance flights and research. No persons may be carried except bone-fide members of the crew."
August 20
At Burbank, Earhart shows Purdue president Elliott the new airplane.
August 29
AE flies the Electra nonstop from Burbank to Kansas City on her way to Floyd Bennett Field to enter the Bendix race. Mantz and McKneely are with her. Mantz only went as far as Kansas City. Engines were leaking oil.
August 30
AE and McKneely fly from Kansas City to Cleveland, OH. Apparently an unplanned stop due to engine trouble (probably still leaking oil).
August 31
AE and McKneely fly from Cleveland to Floyd Bennett Field, NY for the Bendix Race.
Sept. 4
Bendix race. Helen Richey accompanies her as copilot. She is back in California at the end of the race.
Sept. 20
At Purdue with the Electra
Sept. 29
At a Roosevelt campaign event on Sept 29 in Syracuse NY
Oct. 2-30
Lecture tour by car.
November 7
Earhart attends a football game in Baltimore. She isn't back on the west coast until on or about November 19
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I'd add between Aug 20 - 29: Mantz uses the Electra for movie "Love on the Run".
So AE was in Burbank on 20th with Purdue president. Filming had to have happened during those 9 days. Can't believe AE would condone that with Purdue president arriving.
Maybe AE and GP were showing Elliott around LA the next few days and Mantz took advantage of their absence. Maybe Purdue Univ. has some records of his trip and stay in LA. It's also possible, I suppose, that AE knew about/approved using the aircraft in the movie and spirited Elliott away -- to Catalina Island perhaps -- (Mantz and AE were there frequently) so Elliott would see his $80,000 investment being 'abused'.
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Seems like the filming for Love On The Run must have taken place in the week between August 21 and August 28, and probably closer to the 28th than the 21st. It's not the sort of thing you'd think would happen while Elliott was there.
But here's something odd. In the Love On The Run clip (https://youtu.be/7dvJFAlPdNM), at :46, there are numbers on the upper surface of the right wing. Looks like " - 2". At :56 you can very briefly see something on the top of the right wing. Maybe "16". At 1:02 there is definitely nothing painted on the top of the right wing. At 1:08 the top wing is marked R16020 (although the middle 0 looks a bit funky). At 1:19 the right wing is marked "16 -2" but you can see where the "R" has been removed.
So the aircraft was photographed in three different iterations:
• With the right wing unmarked
• With the right wing marked R16020
• With the right wing markings altered to 16 - 2
Possible explanation. They shoot the scene before the wing is painted and they think they're done. The wing gets painted but the director decides he needs another take, so they shoot the scene again. Somebody then notices that R16020 can be seen in the new take. Damn! So they alter the number on the wing and shoot the scene a third time. The final cut is an amalgam of all three takes. It seems like this would all have taken at least two days.
I'm also posting this on the Love On The Run thread.
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Given the engine troubles on the way east at the end of August I think we can be confident that the Electra underwent a fair amount of service in California after AE got back on the Sept 4th, probably was grounded for several days afterward. I would be surprised if McKneely did not fly with her to Purdue later in September in case further issues developed on the way.
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Apparently AE did go back to back to California after leaving Purdue, in this article from Sept 24, 1936
http://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/lccn/sn89071389/1936-09-24/ed-1/seq-4/#date1=01%2F01%2F1936&index=13&date2=12%2F31%2F1936&searchType=advanced&SearchType=prox5&sequence=0&words=Earhart&proxdistance=5&to_year=1936&rows=20&ortext=&from_year=1936&proxtext=Earhart+&phrasetext=&andtext=&dateFilterType=range&page=1
she is quoted about Roosevelt, and then it is mentioned that she is at the Union Air Terminal, Burbank California.
**edit** Actually it appears that this is a danger of using weekly small town newspapers as sources, the interview cited above was likely given before she left California to go to Purdue, I found the same article in other papers in early October when we know she was doing the lecture circuit, then I found this citation which gives a list of the rounds she was making for FDR in the lead up to the Democratic Convention on Sept 28-29 in Syracuse, according to the Plattsburgh Daily Republican., September 21, 1936, AE was joining the Democratic caravan and starting Thursday Sept 24 she was going to "speak in 5 counties, Germantown, Kinderhook, Va?, Chatham and Mount Lebanon. Driving her own car Miss Earhart will follow the caravan the following day ad speak in Waterford, Mechanicsville, Bailson Spa and Saratoga springs."
http://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/lccn/sn84031883/1936-09-21/ed-1/seq-1/
The car mention is interesting because I have a couple of reports that she flew into Syracuse for the convention.
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she is quoted about Roosevelt, and then it is mentioned that she is at the Union Air Terminal, Burbank California.
So she leaves the Electra in Burbank and travels to Syracuse, arriving by the 29th. After the Roosevelt campaign event she sets off on her lecture tour. The aircraft is in California from September 24 to November 23 when she heads back east, stopping inSouth Bend on the way to talk to Vince Bendix.
Updated chronology:
August 2
Earhart and McLeod make a 1 hour and 55 minute flight to Mills Field, San Francisco.
August 3
Earhart and McLeod fly the Electra across the bay to Alameda to see Elmer Dimity’s big parachute and fog dispeller. The airplane is marked X16020
August 7
The aircraft is inspected by the Bureau of Air Commerce and approved for registration number R16020.
August 18
The aircraft is issued a Bureau of Air Commerce license as R16020. "Restricted for long distance flights and research. No persons may be carried except bone-fide members of the crew."
August 20
At Burbank, Earhart shows Purdue president Elliott the new airplane.
August 29
AE flies the Electra nonstop from Burbank to Kansas City on her way to Floyd Bennett Field to enter the Bendix race. Mantz and McKneely are with her. Mantz only went as far as Kansas City. Engines were leaking oil.
August 30
AE and McKneely fly from Kansas City to Cleveland, OH. Apparently an unplanned stop due to engine trouble (probably still leaking oil).
August 31
AE and McKneely fly from Cleveland to Floyd Bennett Field, NY for the Bendix Race.
Sept. 4
Bendix race. Helen Richey accompanies her as copilot. She is back in California at the end of the race.
Sept. 20
At Purdue with the Electra
Sept. 29
At a Roosevelt campaign event on Sept 29 in Syracuse NY
Oct. 2-30
Lecture tour by car.
November 7
Earhart attends a football game in Baltimore. She isn't back on the west coast until on or about November 19
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I agree with the observations and the main conclusions of Ric's Reply # 9 in this thread, that there were at least 2 or 3 different iterations of the Electra's appearance in the film clip, which probably indicate that the filming took place over more than one day. (The shadows seem fairly consistent, to my untrained eye. So, at about the same time on a different day?)
Let me just add a few observations of my own, with the caveat that I have no expertise whatsoever in the analysis of photographs. I am simply trying be a careful observer here.
I see the designation "16-2" at least five times in the clip, in three different places on the plane. From this I conclude that for at least one shoot it was the filmmakers' intention that the plane show that designation. It is also clear that the "16-2" designation, on the upper right wing, at least, was crafted by leaving those three original numerals untouched, while masking the 'R' and final zero, and changing the other zero to a dash (1:19). The same procedure may also have served for the left tail (0:06-07,0:56), where the Lockheed logo is also covered, and under the left wing (0:56).
I agree with Ric that no numerals at all appear on the upper right wing at 1:02. I will leave it to others to determine if that reflects the plane itself at the time of that shot, and thus represents a third iteration, or whether it might have been achieved by altering the film rather than the plane.
As a footnote, my layman's guess is that the continuation of the takeoff in the final shot of the clip (1:29-30), is the model and not the real Electra. Did Ric just want to test us, to see if we are really paying attention? ;)
Later addendum: With all due respect I now wish to retract my agreement with Ric about how many days the filming took and instead agree with Russ Matthews, who provides us with an authoritative analysis of the film in his Reply # 24 in the thread "Love on the Run 1937." Russ provides good arguments and evidence that it was very likely a one-day shoot.
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I can confirm that Earhart did do the Democratic caravan trip on Sept 24 and 25 in New York: the paper from Ballston Spa on Sept 26 has a detailed report of her stop there, travelling by car, it appears that her husband travelled with her ( among others) although he is called Edward Putnam in the article
http://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%2021/Ballston%20Spa%20NY%20Daily%20Journal/Ballston%20Spa%20NY%20Daily%20Journal%201936/Ballston%20Spa%20NY%20Daily%20Journal%201936%20-%201375.pdf
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Ok, was some reverse motion technique applied to this clip to give the impression of more movement than actually took place or ???
Notice the lettering on the building appears backward in these first few frames.... 057-058-059
https://youtu.be/7dvJFAlPdNM?t=58
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At 047 of this clip,
Gable Mantz seems to close the window ( after the open window shot of the pair conversing) and at 048 we see a pretty good view of the closed sliding window panes ( edges look a bit uneven to me)...Is there anything there that may give a clue to later replacement when looking at later ( 1937) photos?
https://youtu.be/7dvJFAlPdNM?t=48
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Doubtful that the aircraft was in California 9/24-11/23/36. AE (and GP) landed briefly in Salt Lake City on 9/18, then she arrived at Purdue on 9/19 via North Platte, Nebraska. (It's interesting that GP is not mentioned later.) The Associated Press reported she planned to have the plane at Purdue for the next 6 weeks for testing. That fits with her speaking tour during October and a November return to the west coast.
Dan Brown, #2408
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Ok, was some reverse motion technique applied to this clip to give the impression of more movement than actually took place or ???
Notice the lettering on the building appears backward in these first few frames.... 057-058-059
See Russ Matthews' post (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1831.msg39985.html#msg39985) on the Love On The Run thread.
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At 047 of this clip, Gable Mantz seems to close the window ( after the open window shot of the pair conversing) and at 048 we see a pretty good view of the closed sliding window panes ( edges look a bit uneven to me)...Is there anything there that may give a clue to later replacement when looking at later ( 1937) photos?
That's a studio mock up of the cockpit. Ditto for the shot of the instrument panel.
But in any case, the cockpit windows were not changed.
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Doubtful that the aircraft was in California 9/24-11/23/36. AE (and GP) landed briefly in Salt Lake City on 9/18, then she arrived at Purdue on 9/19 via North Platte, Nebraska. (It's interesting that GP is not mentioned later.) The Associated Press reported she planned to have the plane at Purdue for the next 6 weeks for testing. That fits with her speaking tour during October and a November return to the west coast.
Thanks Dan. I wonder what kind of "testing" could be done at Purdue. Who would do the testing? Did Purdue have any kind of aeronautical facility at that time?
New chronology:
August 2
Earhart and McLeod make a 1 hour and 55 minute flight to Mills Field, San Francisco.
August 3
Earhart and McLeod fly the Electra across the bay to Alameda to see Elmer Dimity’s big parachute and fog dispeller. The airplane is marked X16020
August 7
The aircraft is inspected by the Bureau of Air Commerce and approved for registration number R16020.
August 18
The aircraft is issued a Bureau of Air Commerce license as R16020. "Restricted for long distance flights and research. No persons may be carried except bone-fide members of the crew."
August 29
AE flies the Electra nonstop from Burbank to Kansas City on her way to Floyd Bennett Field to enter the Bendix race. Mantz and McKneely are with her. (Butler, page 364. No citation)
Sept. 4
Bendix race. Helen Richey accompanies her as copilot. She is back in California at the end of the race.
Sept. 18
AE (and GP) landed briefly in Salt Lake City (source?).
Sept. 19
AE arrived at Purdue on 9/19 via North Platte, Nebraska (source?)
Sept. 20
At Purdue with the Electra
Sept. 29
At a Roosevelt campaign event on Sept 29 in Syracuse NY
Oct. 2-30
Lecture tour by car.
November 7
Earhart attends a football game in Baltimore. She isn't back on the west coast until on or about November 19
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Sorry for string of posts, but it's taking a while to figure this out.
Sources for 9/18 and 9/19/36 are Salt Lake Tribune, Saturday 9/19/36 and Arizona Republic, Sunday 9/20/36 (Associated Press). The basic elements of the reports are repeated in various other Associated Press affiliates. GP and Bo McNeely were with her when she arrived at Purdue 9/19/36.
It seems she flew to Westchester County NY and then on to Amboy (Syracuse NY) Municipal Airport on Tuesday, 9/29/36 to participate in the political convention (Syracuse Herald, Monday 9/28/36). No report of how she got back to the midwest to start the October speaking tour.
Dan Brown, #2408
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Dan that makes sense, Putnam's house in Rye is in Westchester, she drove from there with the Democratic caravan on the 24th and 25th then returned and flew to Amboy. I have been searching but can't find any photos of the Electra at Amboy. Amboy is defunct as an airport but there is a group there trying to set up an Amboy Aviation Museum at the Erie Canal Park and they might have unreleased photos but I have not been able to contact them.
It seems either the Hooven compass would have been installed in the narrow one or two day window after Sept 21 or more likely after AE flew the Electra to somewhere , maybe Purdue or Dayton from Amboy early in October and left it there during her lecture tour. The next clear reference to where the Electra was is the post on the November 1936 thread where AE is taking off from Lafayette on Nov 19 to go to South Bend.
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Doubtful that the aircraft was in California 9/24-11/23/36. AE (and GP) landed briefly in Salt Lake City on 9/18, then she arrived at Purdue on 9/19 via North Platte, Nebraska. (It's interesting that GP is not mentioned later.) The Associated Press reported she planned to have the plane at Purdue for the next 6 weeks for testing. That fits with her speaking tour during October and a November return to the west coast.
I wonder what kind of "testing" could be done at Purdue. Who would do the testing? Did Purdue have any kind of aeronautical facility at that time?
Here's a partial answer to Ric's question, from a Purdue Engineering website:
Professor George W. Haskins, the same Lieutenant Haskins who had flown to Purdue in 1919 from Dayton, returned in 1929 as an Associate Professor. He taught the aeronautical engineering courses, which were still offered as technical electives in mechanical engineering. An aeronautics laboratory was well established by this time in Heavilon Hall. It was equipped with a fully assembled airplane and operating engines, along with wind tunnels for aerodynamic measurements.
Several other aviation related developments occurred on campus during this period. In 1930 Purdue became the first U.S. university to offer college credit for flight training, and it opened the nation's first college-owned airport in 1934. President Elliott was later responsible for bringing Amelia Earhart to Purdue as a "Counselor on Careers for Women," a staff position she held from 1935 until her disappearance in 1937. Purdue was also instrumental in providing funds for Earhart's ill-fated "Flying Laboratory," the Lockheed Electra which she intended to fly around the world in 1937. The University library houses an extensive Earhart collection, which continues to be studied by those seeking to solve the mystery surrounding her final flight.
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Clarification regarding the trip from Burbank to Purdue:
AMELIA EARHART LANDS LABORATORY AT PURDUE (By Associate Press) (San Antonio Express, Sunday, September 20, 1936)
LAFAYETTE, Ind., Sept. 19.— Amelia Earhart, noted woman flyer, arrived at Purdue University in her "flying laboratory" airplane from North Platte, Neb., this afternoon. She will stay at the school for six weeks to continue her experiments with the new airplane. Miss Earhart was accompanied here by her publisher-husband, George Palmer Putman [sic], and "Bo" McNeely, her mechanic. She flew the 800 miles from North Platte in 3 [and] 1/2 hours. She stopped in North Platte last night after having flown from Burbank, Calif.
Better understanding of the events 9/20-9/29/36:
Amelia Earhart to Fly Here To Participate Tuesday in Democratic State Conclave (Syracuse Herald, Monday, September 28, 1936)
"Amelia Earhart...will arrlve here [this is a prediction, not yet fact] by plane [not necessarily NR16020] Tuesday morning to attend the Democratic State Convention... She made her maiden political speech for Presldent Franklin D. Roosevelt and Gov. Herbert H. Lehman last week when she toured Columbia and Saratoga Counties with the Democratic Women's Caravan [this is what she's been doing since leaving NR16020 at Purdue]. She will [another prediction] fly to the Municipal Airport at Amboy from her home, it is announced [by whom?]." [Regardless, she did not in fact fly to Syracuse.]
Miss Earhart Greeted Here By Notables (Syracuse Herald, Tuesday, September 29, 1936)
[Excerpt from a long article]: "The plane is one she flew lately from California, with her husband as a passenger. It is at Purdue. He and she motored from Monticello [a village between Rye, just north of New York City, and Syracuse] overnight, after starting from Rye late Monday." "Mr. Putnam said they would leave probably Tuesday night returning to New York [City]."
Dan Brown, #2408
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The Bendix/Hooven Radio Comopass was installed at Purdue.
In the early years of the Earhart Project we carried on a correspondence with Fred Goerner, author of the 1966 best-seller The Search for Amelia Earhart. Fred, of course, was trying to convince me that our Nikumaroro Hypothesis was wrong. This was pre-email so the correspondence is all snail-mail letters. Digging through those paper files I found the attached letter, sent to me by Goerner, from Fred Hooven (inventor of the radio compass) to Fred Goerner. The original letter was written in 1966 but includes corrections from Hooven in 1979 and 1983.
Among other things, the letter and corrections explain that the Bendix/Hooven Radio compass was installed in October 1936 but not at Wright Field in Dayton as Hooven first remembered. Per Hooven's 1979 correction, the installation was done at Purdue in Lafayette, Indiana. Hooven was not present. As I suspected, he first met Earhart when she and Jackie Cochran stopped in Dayton on the way to California in December.
This solves the mystery of how the radio compass got installed. We knew the airplane was at Purdue during October but Earhart was on the road, speaking at the political event in Syracuse and then on a lecture tour. We couldn’t figure out who flew it to Dayton. The answer is, nobody. The installation was done at Purdue.
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Wow, thanks for that letter, Ric! It solves the installation mystery & supplements the Hooven report of 1982.
A few layman's comments:
1. The fact that Hooven himself was not present for the installation of his device in October might be part of the explanation as to why AE needed to fly to Dayton from NY in December to have it checked out. Also, if AE herself was not present for the installation at Purdue, that means she was getting her instructions in its use second-hand, from the Purdue staff who were present, or only from written instructions? Maybe she just wanted firsthand in-person training in its use?
2. I find very persuasive Hooven's arguments that his device was superior in key respects to the one that replaced it in AE's plane. And I can't wait to have your new book, Ric, in which you will get this all sorted out for us!
3. Hooven's further hypothetical argument is that his device would have enabled AE to find Howland. But Hooven may not have known that AE's plane had probably lost its belly receiving antenna. A key technical question in assessing his hypothetical is whether his device had its own standard antenna built into the loop antenna apparatus, or whether it used the belly antenna as its standard antenna. He explains that his device was dependent on a second antenna, in addition to the loop antenna. (I will move to a Radio thread if I pursue this more technical question.)
Mystery after mystery getting solved, & new ones turning up! Such fun! Keep up the good work!
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3. Hooven's further hypothetical argument is that his device would have enabled AE to find Howland. But Hooven may not have known that AE's plane had probably lost its belly receiving antenna. A key technical question in assessing his hypothetical is whether his device had its own standard antenna built into the loop antenna apparatus, or whether it used the belly antenna as its standard antenna. He explains that his device was dependent on a second antenna, in addition to the loop antenna.
The Hooven system required a "sense antenna" in addition to the loop. Photos show that when the Hooven loop was added a new second belly antenna also appeared (the original belly antenna wihich served the Western Electric receiver ran down the starboard side of the belly. The new antenna ran down the port side and probably functioned as the sense antenna for the radio compass.)
When the Hooven loop was removed and replaced with the Bendix loop in March, both belly antennas remained in place. The second belly antenna probably now served the newly installed second receiver, a Bendix RA-1.
Prior to the departure of the second world flight attempt in May, the RA-1 receiver was removed as well as the port side antenna.
So, to answer your question: Had the Hooven Radio Compass not been replaced, the repairs to the airplane after the wreck in Hawaii should have included the re-installation of both belly antennas. The question then becomes, would both belly antennas have been lost during the Lae takeoff? That's probably an "imponderable."
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Thanks for your answer, Ric. It's very helpful to learn that the Hooven direction finder did involve a second belly antenna, without which it likely would not have worked as designed. Yes, I agree, the question, what if she had kept the Hooven device, does become an imponderable, due to its needing that belly antenna. This seems so, even if we accept Hooven's reasoning that in normal conditions his device would work better than the older design.
Excellent work on the collaborative study linked on the new thread, "Earhart's language"!
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Was there an accident onboard of the Electra during the Bendix race?
From page 38 in the book " Los Angeles International Airport",(I found it in google books)
"Vying for the Bendix trophy she was almost sucked out her plane when an emergency hatch failed. The mishap caused her to finish fifth in that race."
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I found this regarding the "mishap" during the Bendix Trophy race;
"Amelia Earhart had flown in many air races prior to the 1936 Bendix. She had only
recently taken delivery of the new Lockheed Electra 10E from Purdue University as
her "Flying Laboratory" Her co-pilot for the race was Helen Richey, one of America's
top women pilots. Unexpectedly the emergency cockpit escape hatch blew open
almost sucking both pilots out, they were able to secure it with a rag till they landed
at their Kansas City fuel stop where they were able to wire it closed. The open hatch
caused much lost time. Amelia Earhart was lost on an attempted round- the-world
flight with navigator Fred Noonan in the Pacific Ocean near Howland Island in this ship
on July 5th 1937."
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Patrick where did you find that, I was looking for more details on that incident. The only info I could find was this clearly garbled version from the LAX book, since Pancho Barnes was not her pilot in 1936 I knew something was not right.
Was the emergency escape hatch the top entry to the cockpit that AE was always using in photos after the extra fuel tanks were installed?
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From Susan Butler's book, page 347:
"Moments after Amelia and Helen took off (from Floyd Bennett Field), a bolt in the hatch cover over their heads worked loose, and the big hatch--big enough to provide access--popped open. Only after the automatic pilot kicked in could Amelia, who was at the controls, help Helen wrestle it closed. At one point, "the wind almost sucked us right out of the cockpit," according to Amelia. It took them two hours before they got it securely into place. When they made their refueling stop in Kanas City precious time was lost while it was wired shut. Later they had to deal with a cabin door that worked loose--all very time-consuming."
Sounds like an exciting trip! (Remember the TIGHAR definition of 'adventure?' Makes me wonder what words AE had for Bo and Lockheed.
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Combine the hatch and door incidents with having to stop twice ( Kansas City and Cleveland) on the way to New York for the start of the race for oil leaks and engine problems and it seems the Electra had some real issues when delivered
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Patrick where did you find that, I was looking for more details on that incident.
http://www.airrace.com/1936NAR.htm
(http://www.airrace.com/1936NAR.htm)
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My local library doesn't have this book; http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4689988-hollywood-pilot ....does anyone here have access to a copy? There may be some useful information in there.
Also there was a recorded interview with mantz; http://www.worldcat.org/title/interview-with-pilot-paul-mantz-aug-5-1940/oclc/226040055&referer=brief_results ....anyone have ?
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I have "Hollywood Pilot" coming from Amazon. Should get it today or tomorrow.
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TIGHAR has Hollywood Pilot. Lots of interesting material related to Mantz relationship with AE including this tidbit the didn't seem significant until now.
"By May 7, 1936, AE's dream ship was ready for the paint shop. Mantz wrote to GP: 'I would suggest that the rudder, stabilizer, and a border on the top of the wing be painted orange or red, to be seen easier when the sky is overcast.'
Gippy said no. "She'll want Purdue's colors." (page 96)
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The propellors are unpainted in this photo of AE with Purdue president Edward C. Elliott at the Lockheed factory in Burbank 8/20/1936.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amelia_Earhart_with_the_new_Electra_1936.jpg (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amelia_Earhart_with_the_new_Electra_1936.jpg)
Dan Brown, #2408
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The propellors are unpainted in this photo of AE with Purdue president Edward C. Elliott at the Lockheed factory in Burbank 8/20/1936.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amelia_Earhart_with_the_new_Electra_1936.jpg (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amelia_Earhart_with_the_new_Electra_1936.jpg)
Dan Brown, #2408
Only the back side of the blades get painted. It's done to reduce glare off the spinning disk of the props. The pilot can't see the front of the blades.
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This photo, taken at Purdue on September 20, 1936 shows that the hatch has been changed to open inward. It seems likely that the switch was made as part of the repairs after the incident during the September 4 Bendix race.
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Not sure I understand how you can conclusively say the hatch opens inward from this photo.
Couldn't it open up and be behind the women out of view?
Am I missing something?
amck
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Not sure I understand how you can conclusively say the hatch opens inward from this photo.
Couldn't it open up and be behind the women out of view?
Am I missing something?
amck
Andrew, I think that's Ric's point. I'm seeing it the same way as I think Ric is expressing it, that the hatch now seems to be hidden behind Amelia with the hinge near the center of the top of the fuselage as we see it in so many later pictures on the World Flight. If it continued to be hinged over the pilot's window (as it was originally delivered in July), and with the hatch obviously being open in this picture, we'd expect to see the hatch in this picture.
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Not sure I understand how you can conclusively say the hatch opens inward from this photo.
Couldn't it open up and be behind the women out of view?
Am I missing something?
In the photo, you can see through the windshield that the hatch is open. If the hatch opened outward (as in this photo), as it did originally, the open hatch would be sticking out to the right. The hatch is not visible so it must be behind the girls and therefore hinged on the inboard side.
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OK, I get it now. Wasn't sure what side it was hinged.
amck
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Terrible thing to be unhinged, eh, Andrew?
I know, my bad. I will go back to my sock drawer now.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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Indeed...
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I don't see any hatch cover at all in the view from aft (TIGHAR Research Bulletin 11/1/11). This is an interesting series of photos in the Purdue collection because it's obviously the same girls (faces, clothes, hair, etc.) in each of the different views, and AE wears the same plaid shirt.
Dan Brown, #2408
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I don't see any hatch cover at all in the view from aft (TIGHAR Research Bulletin 11/1/11). This is an interesting series of photos in the Purdue collection because it's obviously the same girls (faces, clothes, hair, etc.) in each of the different views, and AE wears the same plaid shirt.
Wow! That is strange.
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The hatch might have been "in the shop" on that day getting the hinges moved. Are there maintenance records that survive from Purdue airport?
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I believe the many times the Electra was featured in photo shoots, before the hatch was rotated 180 degrees, was that they merely drove the pin out of the hinge and removed the hatch....just better photos and posing positions without it.
I believe the hinge halves are still above the Port window in these Purdue students/Amelia poses.
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In this picture at Purdue the hatch still opens outward, it's easy to see how the hatch makes it difficult to climb in/out using the wing
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/epurdue/id/350/rec/17
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I believe the many times the Electra was featured in photo shoots, before the hatch was rotated 180 degrees, was that they merely drove the pin out of the hinge and removed the hatch....just better photos and posing positions without it.
I believe the hinge halves are still above the Port window in these Purdue students/Amelia poses.
Jerry, the photo you showed a detail from was taken while the plane was still under construction. You may be right that the hatch was removed for the Purdue photo shoot but I'm not aware of any other occasion when that was done.
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In this picture at Purdue the hatch still opens outward, it's easy to see how the hatch makes it difficult to climb in/out using the wing
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/epurdue/id/350/rec/17
That photo was taken at Purdue so the hatch still opened outward, at least when she arrived at Purdue in September. Matt may be right. The hatch may be missing in the other Purdue photos because it was in the shop having the hinges changed.
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Attachment; I believe this image and several others of Earhart with members of the Purdue football team, may be around the same time frame involving photo shoots with the female Purdue students, ( although different clothing is worn by Earhart and the plane is in a hanger)... post Bendix race. I am still looking for a dated photo that shows a new piece above the window,( Sept-Oct 1936), whereby the hatch gasket would attach.( unless the hinge half above the port window was merely covered with gasket material).....I can't tell, but the gasket shows some signs of unevenness along the length but are probably just impressions left by the rivets on the hatch.
It doesn't seem mechanically correct to have left the hinge piece in place....am looking for better photos, such as this one and dated just after the hatch change.
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/811/rec/1012
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I believe the many times the Electra was featured in photo shoots, before the hatch was rotated 180 degrees, was that they merely drove the pin out of the hinge and removed the hatch....just better photos and posing positions without it.
I believe the hinge halves are still above the Port window in these Purdue students/Amelia poses.
Jerry, the photo you showed a detail from was taken while the plane was still under construction. You may be right that the hatch was removed for the Purdue photo shoot but I'm not aware of any other occasion when that was done.
The hatch in my opinion would be a very easy removal.....pull the rod pin out and off it comes...five minutes.
However; I haven't come across a post hatch rotation image, where the hatch is removed.....or one where the hatch is removed pre Bendix race as well. As you mention it may be telling.
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In this picture at Purdue the hatch still opens outward, it's easy to see how the hatch makes it difficult to climb in/out using the wing
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/epurdue/id/350/rec/17
That photo was taken at Purdue so the hatch still opened outward, at least when she arrived at Purdue in September. Matt may be right. The hatch may be missing in the other Purdue photos because it was in the shop having the hinges changed.
A new hinge half strip would have to be attached to the center line, ...I don't know that the hatch would need any modifications, rotate 180 degrees and attach at new center-line hinge half strip via hinge rod,.... construct new port window header piece to accommodate the latches to secure.
Research on potential latch design changes may give clues,to verify if any modification was done to the hatch, or other details may indicate that at some point an entire new hatch was created.....small details like rivet positions, latches, inner liner, may help determine that.
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I found this image, in which it appears that the hinge is on the starboard side ( unless it is a reverse image)...hatch looks to have latches at the top and is open a bit at the centerline. Is this the Electra or another plane?
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I found this image, in which it appears that the hinge is on the starboard side ( unless it is a reverse image)...hatch looks to have latches at the top and is open a bit at the centerline. Is this the Electra or another plane?
The photo is reversed. It's one of the publicity shots from July 21, 1936.
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just to make sure everyone understands the change in how the hatch worked, and how it was modified, I found these images which show the before (opening from the left to the left as looking aircraft forward) and after (opening to the right from the right as looking aircraft forward) configurations of the hatch.
These are screen shots snipped out of this Elgen Long / Nauticos crashed and sank video on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPrBgNXpV7w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPrBgNXpV7w)
Hatch to the left with AE at time 5:28 minutes
Hatch to the right at 18:28
Hatch to the right at 28;48
It is not clear when or where these movies of the Electra were taken.
Andrew
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It is not clear when or where these movies of the Electra were taken.
The clip at 5:28 is from the July 21, 1936 publicity shoot at Burbank. First public debut of the new aircraft.
The other two clips are fueling the aircraft for the first world flight attempt at Oakland on March 17, 1937.