TIGHAR
Project Midnight Ghost => General Discussion => Topic started by: Captain Andy on January 28, 2016, 04:35:30 PM
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Continuing on from status of the stick Ric as you requested here's my transcription of the letter from Patsy Judge to Ralph Martin
Patrick's Cove
June 18 1974
Mr Ralph Martin
Dear Sir
I know you will be surprised to hear from me I am writing you concerning the piece of metal which I found in 1932 as you remember I gave you a portion of this to you and this was in 1947 and you presented it to a place in England and they in turn wrote me a letter saying it was undoubtful a part of the undercarriage off the plane called either the Blue Bird or the White Bird perhaps you can find out which plane they were searching for here in 1928
At the present time there is a group searching for it in the pond where I found this plane and they are trying to deny that I was the first to find this part and trying to say it was years later so if you could write me a letter concerning this transaction between you and I in 1947 this would prove I am right in what I am saying
Mrs Willfiend Peters claims she can also give me a letter that she can remember me having it and giving it to you and perhaps you could contact some person who is still around where you presented it I trust you will be kind enough to write me and do what you can for me in this respect
I was indeed delighted to find you and Mrs Martin were still around and doing fine poor Mr Peters passed away a few years ago I miss him when I go to town he was a wonderful man if you write me my address I am writing at the bottom of the letter
If you can help me by writing me a letter to certify where you presented the piece in question you will be doing me a wonderful favor thanking you very much I wish you all the best from my wife
Yours
Patrick Judge
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Andy, this is excellent work. Thank you. I agree with with your interpretation of Judge's handwriting. He was not an educated man and there are many spelling and punctuation errors in his letter. I have modified your transcription (below) to preserve Judge's errors because sometimes his meaning is not clear. For example, he spelled "of" and "off" the same way so it's hard to tell which word he meant.
Having an easy to read copy of his letter helps us focus on what he said and its implications. Think about it. If what Patsy Judge wrote is true, then the mystery of the fate of Nungesser and Coli has already been solved. A "smoking gun" artifact was identified by aviation experts in England in 1947. The word obviously never reached the media and the artifact and the letter announcing its identification have apparently been lost, but that identification did not happen in a vacuum. It was 69 years ago but somebody, or somebody's son or daughter, may remember it or even have some kind of documentation. We need to think about how best to explore that possibility.
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Patricks Cove
June 18 1974
Mr Ralph Martin
Dear Sir
I know you will be surprised to Hear from me. I am writing you conserning the peice off metal which I found in 1932. As you remember I gave you a Portion off this to you. and this was in 1947. and you presented it to a place in England and they in turn wrote me a letter saying it was undoubtfull a part off the under carrige off the plane called either the Blue Bird or the White Bird. perhaps you can find out which plane they were searching for here in 1928 ?
At the present time there is a group searching for it in the Pond where I found this plane and they are trying to deny that I was the first to find this Part and trying to say it was years later. So if you could write me a letter conserning this transacton between you and I in 1947 this would prove I am Right in what I am saying.
Mrs Willferd Peters claims she can also give me a letter that she can remember me having it and giving it to you and perhaps you could contact some person who is still aroun where you presented it. I trust you will be kind enough to write me and do what you can for me in this respect
I was indeed delighted to find you and Mrs Martin were still around and doing fine Poor Mr Peters passed away a few years ago I miss him when I go to town he was a wonderfull man.
If you write me my address I am writing at the bottom off the letter
If you can help me by writing me a letter to certify where you presented the piece in question you will be doing me a wonderfull favor. thanking you very much I wish you all the Best from my wife I.
Your
Patrick Judge
Patricks Cove PO 13 site 16
Cape Shore Placentia East
Newfondland Canada
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Am I the only one disturbed by the fact the location of the undercarriage of the White Bird is well known? The undercarriage was dropped on takeoff and is in e Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace (French Air and Space Museum), at Le Bourget airport in Paris, the location from which L'Oiseau Blanc took off.
Neff
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Attached are my notes from a 1993 telephone interview with Ralph Martin.
Martin lived in Harrogate, North Yorkshire. He said the AVRO factory that made Lancaster bombers to which he gave the piece of metal was about 5 miles from his mill. Can we confirm that there was an AVRO factory that made Lancasters near Harrogate? Did it, at some time, burn as Hawker Siddeley people told CBC reporter Rob Parker in 1974? Parker mentions contacting an AVRO/Hawker-Siddeley factory in Manchester, but Manchester is a long way from Harrogate. Where was the fire?
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Am I the only one disturbed by the fact the location of the undercarriage of the White Bird is well known? The undercarriage was dropped on takeoff and is in e Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace (French Air and Space Museum), at Le Bourget airport in Paris, the location from which L'Oiseau Blanc took off.
Neff
See my notes from my interview with Ralph Martin attached to my previous post. The piece sounds like one of the stainless steel supports on the fuselage to which the droppable landing gear was attached.
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Interesting reading; Hopefully this link hasn't already been presented here.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930090627.pdf
I also came accross a diagram of what is supposed to be a levasseur detachable landing gear ( see attachment)
http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft32356.htm
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These are photos of the landing gear attach points on L'Oiseau Blanc. Ralph Martin described the object Patsy Judge gave him as comparatively light, aluminum or stainless steel, no corrosion, bright and shiny, no wood or rivets, about 12 or 14 inches long, about 3 inches long at its widest part, with strange numerals stamped on it.
The parts manual for the Levasseur P.L. 4, from which the P.L. 8 was derived, lists the six attach structures as being made of "Acier spécial" (stainless steel). Logically they would not be attached to the wooden hull with rivets but with screws. Their very distinctive shape would make them easy to identify from photos of the White Bird so AVRO would not need to have the part numbers.
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These are photos of the landing gear attach points on L'Oiseau Blanc. Ralph Martin described the object Patsy Judge gave him as comparatively light, aluminum or stainless steel, no corrosion, bright and shiny, no wood or rivets, about 12 or 14 inches long, about 3 inches long at its widest part, with strange numerals stamped on it.
No mention of it being unusually shaped? Holes for fasteners? Notch cradles for the fore and aft pins? Does the length or width narrow it down dimension-ally from six possible landing gear source parts to ?? I wonder if he ever attempted to identify the numerals he saw, via photos or books?
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There is a big difference in attach points and an undercarriage, but alright "part of the undercarriage." During WWII there was a large covert Avro plant in Yeadon which is not terribly far from Harrogate or Leeds or Bradford for that matter. The Yeadon factory is about 7.5 miles from the south western outskirts of Harrogate.
Neff
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How do you think Patsy lost the avro letter and I found why Patsy was James Doyle's adopted son his mother died when he was six weeks old
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How do you think Patsy lost the avro letter and I found why Patsy was James Doyle's adopted son his mother died when he was six weeks old
I have no idea how Patsy lost the letter. How did you learn that Patsy's mother died when he was six weeks old?
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From this book
https://books.google.com/books?id=1acosO6iteYC&pg=PA88&dq=patsy+judge+gooseberry+cove&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK1PDYuNDKAhUBXR4KHWvPBn4Q6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=patsy%20judge%20gooseberry%20cove&f=false
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That is excellent research Andy. Good work!
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Didn't Patrick McGrath mention that Patsy had another piece of the plane in the pond
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Didn't Patrick McGrath mention that Patsy had another piece of the plane in the pond
I think so. I'd have to check my notes.
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Check tighar tracks volume nine volume four and can I see your notes
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Check tighar tracks volume nine volume four and can I see your notes
Thanks. That TIGHAR Tracks article is an excellent summary of all the stories about artifacts found or allegedly found at or near the Gull Pond. There's nothing more I can add.
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The issue of Tighar Tracks that Ric and Andy referred to can be found here (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/1993Vol_9/0904.pdf), and the full index of Tighar Tracks is here (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/archive.html).
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Martin lived in Harrogate, North Yorkshire. He said the AVRO factory that made Lancaster bombers to which he gave the piece of metal was about 5 miles from his mill. Can we confirm that there was an AVRO factory that made Lancasters near Harrogate? Did it, at some time, burn as Hawker Siddeley people told CBC reporter Rob Parker in 1974? Parker mentions contacting an AVRO/Hawker-Siddeley factory in Manchester, but Manchester is a long way from Harrogate. Where was the fire?
Ric, you wrote this in 1993 and may have already covered this ground but here's what I found.
The AVRO factory in Chadderton (http://www.chadderton-hs.freeuk.com/page11-avro.htm), just northeast of Manchester, produced Lancaster bombers during the war. Ralph Martin said his mill in Bradford was about 5 miles from the factory. On Google Maps the distance from Bradford to Chadderton seems to be about 20 miles, so this is a plausible match.
According to the same source, "It was in the 1959-1960 period that Chadderton was hit by a series of fires in various parts of the factory. The first of these and the most serious occurred on October 3 1959 when a massive blaze destroyed large sections of the production and office areas." That's the right time period for the fire Ralph Martin mentioned.
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Ralph Martin said his mill in Bradford was about 5 miles from the factory. On Google Maps the distance from Bradford to Chadderton seems to be about 20 miles, so this is a plausible match.
That's excellent work Brian. Thanks. Where did Ralph Martin say that his mill was in Bradford?
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It's in the document Notes re Martin.pdf, attached to reply #3 in this thread.
"He had a mill in Bradford, Yorkshire."
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It's in the document Notes re Martin.pdf, attached to reply #3 in this thread.
"He had a mill in Bradford, Yorkshire."
Got it. I missed that. Thanks.
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Well anyone up for a trip to England
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Well anyone up for a trip to England
I'm always up for a trip to England but what would you suggest that we do when we get there? I have some ideas about a possible next step in this investigation but I'd like to hear what you think.
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To see weather or not the files from the factory still exist
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To see weather or not the files from the factory still exist
Where would you look for the files if the factory no longer exists?
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Oh right well see if they're in hawker siddeleys archives
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To see weather or not the files from the factory still exist
Start here maybe (http://www.chadderton-hs.freeuk.com/page11-avro.htm)
Thanks Chris. The factory at Chadderton is still very much in operation but the chance that any records from 1947 still exist seems slim. However, the factory history says, "Visitors to the site, or their families, who worked at the Chadderton factory before the fire in October, 1959, when most of the records were destroyed, may have photographs or memorabilia in their possession which could be very useful."
We need to connect with those people. There may be an association of former employees. The best tactic may be to convince an editor at The Guardian newspaper to run a story about the White Bird/Patsy Judge/Chadderton mystery. It would be a great way to cast a net over the whole Manchester area (and beyond) and see what fish we can pull in. And there's no need to travel to England to do it.
I'll work on that when I have time.
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I think Patsy lost the letter by storing it in his barn which later burned
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I think Patsy lost the letter by storing it in his barn which later burned
That's possible.
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