TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Ric Gillespie on December 03, 2015, 02:38:33 PM

Title: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 03, 2015, 02:38:33 PM
I asked Jeff Glickman to put together an explanation of how he was able to detect the rivet lines on the Miami Patch.  He's happy to oblige.  He's traveling at the moment but he thought he'd be able to get to it in the next week or two. I'll pass it along when I have it. 
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Hal Beck on January 05, 2016, 07:04:23 AM
I asked Jeff Glickman to put together an explanation of how he was able to detect the rivet lines on the Miami Patch.  He's happy to oblige.  He's traveling at the moment but he thought he'd be able to get to it in the next week or two. I'll pass it along when I have it.

Any word from Jeff Glickman about putting together that explanation?  I imagine a key product of Jeff Glickman's analysis was an enhanced version of the Miami Patch photo.  While we await word from Mr. Glickman, could you  post that enhanced photo -- a picture is worth a thousand words?...

Thanks,
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 05, 2016, 07:41:58 AM
While we await word from Mr. Glickman, could you  post that enhanced photo -- a picture is worth a thousand words?..

Jeff's has been dealing with family health issues so I haven't pressed him on this.
But I can tell you that there is no "enhanced photo."  The forensic process Jeff used to detect the presence of rivet lines was a multi-step procedure involved measuring the relative reflectivity of the aluminum.  Simply put, because the aluminum along the lines of rivets was slightly depressed due to the riveting process, the reflectivity of the aluminum surface along the rivet lines was different from the rest of the patch.  The visual output of the procedure is a vertical line that exhibits "spikes" where the reflectivity is different.  That's the best layman's explanation I can give you.  It's all way over my head.
I'll be seeing Jeff in Washington on January 11th and I'll remind him about the rivet line explanation.
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Neff Jacobs on January 06, 2016, 11:27:24 AM
Is Jeff going to reveal his method?  A cornerstone of scientific method is repeatability. Having gone thru a number of patch photos several seem to have the same problem.  A portion of the photo near the front of the plane is in focus and has sufficient resolution to see rivets, but  the area of the patch seems to be outside the focused field and areas where there are rivets are as bland as anything else.   And to be honest I have an interest in recovering rivet lines and locations in photos which are either slightly out of focus or otherwise have less than required resolution.  Elsewhere I research British Locomotives from the 1830s to the 1870s. As you can imagine the photos are often poor quality.   The exact location and pattern of rivets is often a bone of contention among modelers and a good method to pull rivet patterns from poor photos would be a wonderful asset.
Neff
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 07, 2016, 01:14:53 PM
Is Jeff going to reveal his method?

Yes. Jeff will reveal his method.

  A cornerstone of scientific method is repeatability.

That's true but I suspect that repeating Jeff's method would take someone with his level of expertise.

Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Neff Jacobs on January 07, 2016, 04:51:14 PM
Ric,
Thanks.  How does it go?   "A person sufficiently skilled in the art"
Neff
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 11, 2016, 06:21:29 PM
Jeff says he's making good progress with the rivet lines report.  He estimates he'll have something for us in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Tim Collins on February 19, 2016, 02:09:52 PM
 The crickets are getting mighty tired of chirping, any update on the status of the report?
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Ric Gillespie on February 19, 2016, 02:14:45 PM
The crickets are getting mighty tired of chirping, any update on the status of the report?

The crickets will have to keep chirping.  Jeff is holding off working further on the report while we follow up on a new lead that could result in much better imagery of the patch than anything we've seen so far. Sorry I can't say more at this time.
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Monty Fowler on February 20, 2016, 05:37:32 PM
I guess I'm missing something - wouldn't there have to be a report about methodology, etc., regardless of the resolution of this new photo? Saying we can see something without being able to demonstrate how we are able to see it renders whatever this photo might show as moot.

Or so it seems to me.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Dale O. Beethe on February 20, 2016, 08:13:16 PM
I would think if the photo clearly shows rivet lines it would largely negate the need for explaining the methodology.  I'm sure that Mr. Glickman, being a professional, will probably explain it anyway.
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Monty Fowler on February 21, 2016, 03:06:00 AM
Even if rivet lines are plainly visible, there's still the question of spacing as far as the rows of rivets and the space between the individual rivets, and how that may, or may not, match up with the putative patch. That's going to have to be a very fine tolerance indeed for the putative patch to be generally accepted as what we're all hoping it is.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Ric Gillespie on February 21, 2016, 08:13:20 AM
That's going to have to be a very fine tolerance indeed for the putative patch to be generally accepted as what we're all hoping it is.

Define "generally accepted."
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Monty Fowler on February 21, 2016, 01:47:46 PM
Quoting from you in the Plexiglas thread, "But I become increasingly convinced that the only thing that will meet the any-idiot standard is conclusively identifiable Lockheed 10 wreckage discovered in situ."

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Ric Gillespie on February 21, 2016, 04:00:41 PM
Quoting from you in the Plexiglas thread, "But I become increasingly convinced that the only thing that will meet the any-idiot standard is conclusively identifiable Lockheed 10 wreckage discovered in situ."

Do you understand what "in situ" means in this context?
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Monty Fowler on March 31, 2016, 10:01:34 PM
Has there been any progress that can be reported with regards to this new photo?

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 01, 2016, 07:02:01 AM
Has there been any progress that can be reported with regards to this new photo?

If there had been new information to report, positive or negative, I would have reported it. We're working the problem as best we can.  I share your impatience but agitating about it will not make anything happen more quickly.
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Jerry Germann on April 05, 2016, 02:43:32 PM
Look forward to the reveal....it may be all that is needed. As far as the rivet spacing on the lower portion of 2-2-V-1, I have always been intrigued by the irregular spacing between two of the larger diameter holes, and I believe some in their opinion suggested that, the spacing may be indicative of field repair work.
Looking at the Lockheed Electra, I came across similar rivet patterns,...the stagger appears in the inner row,...seems to match 2-2-V-1 with the exception that the double row runs vertical instead of horizontal. This pattern is on both Port and starboard side. I have been searching for the reason why the rivets in those areas are spaced as they are, but haven't discovered the answer thus far.( Other than a  horizontal stringer is positioned there and a rivet placed equal distances from the preceding one wouldn't fall in the center of the stringer, rather near the edge).

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/524/rec/910

Title: Re: Revisiting the Patch and rear panel situation
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 26, 2016, 11:49:36 AM
Please see the attached photo which is from a prior TIGHAR Newsletter I think.

That's actually a photo of the Harney model. What you're seeing is the edge of a hinged section he built into fuselage the so that he could show the interior.
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 30, 2016, 06:34:18 AM
Having completed his forensic imaging study of Earhart's height (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/77_EarhartHeight/Earhart-Height-Report-FINAL.pdf), Jeff Glickman is returning to his evaluation of 2-2-V-1.  The hoped-for acquisition of new imagery has not materialized and he has decided to proceed with what we have.  We'll let the chips fall where they may but Jeff will, of course, reserve the right to update his evaluation should new information come to light.  How soon his report on 2-2-V-1 will be ready will depend upon his workload.
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Monty Fowler on June 16, 2016, 11:40:35 AM
That's unfortunate. More data is always a good thing, or so the scientists like to say.

Since it didn't pan out, can you release any information on the hoped-for imagery and what it might have indicated?

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 16, 2016, 01:09:04 PM
Since it didn't pan out, can you release any information on the hoped-for imagery and what it might have indicated?

Not without jeopardizing our chances of eventually getting the imagery.
Title: Re: Rivet lines on the patch
Post by: Monty Fowler on June 17, 2016, 08:53:12 AM
So there is still hope? That's always a good thing, if this image has the potential to be as significant as you've indicated.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC