TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Alternatives to the Niku Hypothesis => Topic started by: Ric Gillespie on November 24, 2014, 07:08:54 AM

Title: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on November 24, 2014, 07:08:54 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article4084144.html
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on November 24, 2014, 07:22:23 AM
AH, yes, Carol Dow. Remember her time on this forum well. But ...

"Its red paint also makes sense, they said, because Earhart’s plane had red trim."

Oh? you learn something new every day, I suppose. I'll get a lot more interested if they do a metallurgical analysis of the aluminum and country-of-origin analysis of the paint.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR no. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bruce Thomas on November 24, 2014, 08:28:55 AM
AH, yes, Carol Dow. Remember her time on this forum well. But ...

It was eleven years ago ... seems like just yesterday!
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on November 24, 2014, 09:43:52 AM
If that part is truly unique to the Electra's Goodyear Airwheel configuration, I can understand some excitement - who wouldn't feel that, it would have to feel like an odd find in such a place.

That said, a couple of things haul it back in -

- I believe the Airwheel was far more prevalent than believed in this article - it was a very common tire/wheel type among the Lockheeds.

- I agree with Gillespie and Long on various contrary points (imagine that distribution of agreement), including I can't see how they would have had the fuel to make an "on the line" call, then break off and fly to the Marshalls.

'Red paint' is a good start, though... I've got some stuff in my shed with old red paint on it, wish I'd of thought of it before.

I know, that's a bit low... sorry.  Glad they're looking anyway.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on November 24, 2014, 09:54:51 AM
What I haven't seen are photos of NR16020 pointing out the pieces they think they have. 
The Electra did not have an auxiliary power unit but I think it did have a place to plug in an external electrical power source for what we used to call a "cart start."  I take it that they're claiming that they have the cover for that plug-in port.  Where was that port/cover on the airplane?  We should be able to see it in a picture.  Should it have red paint (actually the paint was orange) on one end of it? 

This is basic stuff.  Show me the photos.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Dan Swift on November 24, 2014, 10:19:45 AM
So Atasca didn't hear her right and instead AE said "we are on the line 296-116" (or something far different from 337-157) and "we have plenty of fuel" not "fuel running low".... so we are going to fly another 800+ miles?   Riiiiiight! 
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Mark Appel on November 24, 2014, 10:32:00 AM
I'm embarrassed for them. But pleased that this sort of amateur hour behavior stands in stark contrast to practices at TIGHAR. There's a big difference between finding an artifact that could plausibly be from Earhart's Electra and subjecting it to professional scrutiny over 20 odd years... and finding an artifact that could not plausibly be from Earhart's Electra and immediately declaring it to be authentic.

As pointed out, these folks haven't even done the most basic testing.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Tim Collins on November 24, 2014, 11:25:21 AM
Well, it has been said that imitation is the highest form of flattery.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on November 24, 2014, 11:56:42 AM
... But pleased that this sort of amateur hour behavior stands in stark contrast to practices at TIGHAR.

This will be the best part. This group will not be excoriated and declared the anti-Christ by The Earhart Conspiracy Theory Industrial Complex. There won't be any multi-page dissections on the Warbird Information Exchange. There won't be other TECTIC groups publicly saying, Well, yes, but what about that???

There will only be silence.

Because at the end of the day, deep down, I think they really know they have exactly that.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on November 24, 2014, 12:03:06 PM
What I haven't seen are photos of NR16020 pointing out the pieces they think they have. 
The Electra did not have an auxiliary power unit but I think it did have a place to plug in an external electrical power source for what we used to call a "cart start."  I take it that they're claiming that they have the cover for that plug-in port.  Where was that port/cover on the airplane?  We should be able to see it in a picture.  Should it have red paint (actually the paint was orange) on one end of it? 

This is basic stuff.  Show me the photos.

That is a great way to put all of that.  No matter how good we are, or think we are, we're all living in glass houses in this effort.  Challenge of course, but doing so as is dispassionately and objectively stated here is the right model to remember in my view. 

What is missing from this release is exactly what has been outlined here - where are the correlating data?  The metal on the wheel assembly vs. what was found in pictures - pictures of the item in situ on Earhart's bird (like we struggle to find better examples of for the 'patch') if possible, etc.

The paint was orange on Earhart's bird, for sure - unless there was some panel or dust cover that was red for some reason this doesn't seem like much of a tie.  Some are painted red on the inside to show better when open, but don't know about the L10.  The pix wouldn't lie.

ADDED:

I was scratching my head a bit about the APU - none on the Electra.  The idea has to relate to what Ric pointed out - the meaning probably is that of a battery cart plug somewhere.  Haven't noticed it before - wish these folks would post a photo.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Mark Appel on November 24, 2014, 12:22:47 PM
... But pleased that this sort of amateur hour behavior stands in stark contrast to practices at TIGHAR.

This will be the best part. This group will not be excoriated and declared the anti-Christ by The Earhart Conspiracy Theory Industrial Complex. There won't be any multi-page dissections on the Warbird Information Exchange. There won't be other TECTIC groups publicly saying, Well, yes, but what about that???

There will only be silence.

Because at the end of the day, deep down, I think they really know they have exactly that.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP

LOL! Ain't it the truth! But you forgot some other charming aspects of their M.O. -- ad hominem attacks on TIGHAR leadership and consultants, circular reasoning et al... But you know, that's okay. If you wear the Badge of Integrity, you can stand up to the most withering storm of fair and unfair critique.

And from a coldly calculated P.R. perspective, every time one of these alternative theory types pops up, it's free publicity for TIGHAR. So, bring it on.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on November 24, 2014, 12:58:58 PM
I'm not going to spend a lot of time searching out just the right photos but, from the Harney Drawings and this photo it looks to me like the external power plug receptacle was on the outboard side of the left engine nacelle and did not have a cover.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on November 24, 2014, 01:08:39 PM
Good research and find, Ric - that didn't take long.

Lockheed kept it simple - I guess there wasn't a need for a cover where that is tucked into the side of the nacelle.

Now that you've pinpointed the place for the battery cart plug, maybe some others here can sleuth out a few more pictures of that detail on Earhart's or other Electras to see if any bear a cover, but it seems clear enough to me that there is 'no cover'.  We know there's 'no APU'.

I'm trying to think of what the sheet metal would be on the Airwheel - to no avail, so far.

It appears that our earnest friends who search the Marshalls may be mistaken about the potential their artifacts.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on November 24, 2014, 01:14:55 PM
Here's another shot - from a Purdue archive photo of the Electra in Dakar Senegal (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/294/rec/288) - "no cover" -

And a second  (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/802/rec/336) -
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on November 24, 2014, 01:30:25 PM
You just have to wonder what these people are thinking of.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on November 24, 2014, 01:37:09 PM
It's a fever - rational thinking does tend to go out the window once Earhart bites.  The less initiated may bear some forgiveness -

You can polish your skills and make your efforts more credible, but the world will never view you as quite right again...

One does hope they will learn to apply a bit more research before public proclamation.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on November 24, 2014, 03:05:11 PM
Purdue files are just tore up with examples...

The second one is not her airplane (c/n 1055) but a later L10 with the then-new 'link' gear retraction system installed.  This was an upgrade to replace the worm gear that Earhart's plane had (and still had when it disappeared).  I do recall this being a 'photo op' of her at Lockheed, but don't recall the engineer's name (the fellow on her right) - but he was a big Lockheed guy who was showing off the improved system.

Significance is that this other airplane had the same feature - with no door, and no sign that a covering / door had ever been there.  I think it is safe to believe there was no battery cart plug cover on the L10.  I very much hope we might yet find a picture of 2-2-V-1, er, the patch -  ;D with this much clear detail.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on November 24, 2014, 03:15:20 PM
I'm not going to spend a lot of time searching out just the right photos but, from the Harney Drawings and this photo it looks to me like the external power plug receptacle was on the outboard side of the left engine nacelle and did not have a cover.

Now, now, Mr. Gillespie, you should know by now that things like facts and photos only get in the way of the REAL story, the one TECTIC prefers to tell.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2180 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on November 24, 2014, 03:27:11 PM
Here's another fact to throw into the mix:

The Japanese started building copies of the Lockheed Model 14 on license in 1936. It was somewhat re-engineered but was substantially the same aircraft. Basically a Model 10 on steroids, and as such the derivative was known as the Kawasaki Ki-56, or "Thalia" to the Allies.

Maybe the Japanese thought it necessary to put a flap over the external power plug?

And a Ki-56 would have had red paint in at least six places on the fuselage, in the form of the hinomaru's, or national ID insignia. Those were typically kept touched up and not allowed to fade or weather off, unlike the aircraft's camouflage.

I will now go back to rearranging my jacks collection. I think we're done here.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP



 
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on November 24, 2014, 03:35:36 PM
Nope - one more! From the article:

“There’s no evidence of any U.S. or Japanese aircraft being shot down or disabled in that part of Mili Atoll. So where would this have come from? In all likelihood, it came off Earhart’s plane.”

I would gently point out there there's no evidence of any U.S. or Japanese aircraft being shot down or disabled at Nikumaroro, either - but TIGHAR found a navigator's bookcase from a B-24 there, which probably came from Canton. 200-some miles away. And pieces from the Sydney Island C-47 crash ended up at Canton and probably Niku. Soooooo ...

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Dan Swift on November 25, 2014, 09:14:16 AM
Considering these Electra knockoffs were Japanese aircraft, they weren't very open about their losses in WWII...to say the least. 
Obviously they lost at least some pieces of one around Mili Atoll.   
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on November 25, 2014, 10:54:26 AM
I would caution "maybe they lost" some pieces of one or some of those - or something else.

We haven't seen what our exploring friends have found; we don't know therefore what they've found, but what they described, so far, does not seem to relate to a U.S. built Electra in any case. 

I'd still like to see what they have, and understand how they came to believe these were of the Electra.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on November 25, 2014, 11:31:36 AM
I'm reminded of the expression, "Yo in a heap o' trouble boy."

If they didn't have a permit from the RMI Historic Preservation Office in Majuro and if their recovery of artifacts was not done according to archaeological protocols under the supervision of a degreed archaeologist they're in violation of RMI law and subject to fines.  We've done a lot of work in the Marshalls on the Devastator Project.  We work closely with the Historic Preservation Office and always get the required permits and follow sound archaeological practices.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on November 25, 2014, 01:19:25 PM
One hopes that they did, but one wonders...

There's more to this chase than meets the average eye - educational, thanks for sharing that.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on November 25, 2014, 02:34:36 PM
Permits? We don't need no permits. We don't have to show you our stinkin' permits!

Being a career paper pusher, I had wondered about that aspect myself. Foreign nationals grubbing around in your territory - and removing things without telling anyone - is generally frowned upon.I have faith that TECTIC will rise up on its furthest hindlegs and screech, "But this is DIFFERENT!" Right. Like the Moon is different from the Earth, maybe.

I hope they got the required permits and did things the way they're supposed to be done, as TIGHAR takes pains to do. But if I had to put money on it, I would not choose to back this group in that regard.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR no. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Corey Seats on November 25, 2014, 03:50:06 PM
Long time lurker here.  Mr. Neville, the story Ric linked in the first post has photos.  Click the arrow on the right side of the photo of EA and the Electra at the top of the page.  The next photo is of the "Airwheel dust cover," and the third photo is of the "APU cover plate." ;)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on November 25, 2014, 04:37:00 PM
Corey,

Thanks for that heads up, I missed seeing those photos the first time as well.

Not sure I understand the dust cover and how it fits with the air wheel, but....

Best

Andrew
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on November 25, 2014, 04:37:40 PM
For the record, here's what happened in the Marshalls.  I've kept the description general to protect our sources. The recovery of the metal was done by a prominent Marshallese businessman who did not go through any of the required legal protocols.  The metal had already been sent to the States before the authorities knew anything about it.  The businessman's status in the community and relationship with government officials insulates him from prosecution.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on November 25, 2014, 04:41:02 PM
Not sure I understand the dust cover and how it fits with the air wheel, but....

It doesn't. The whole thing is unadulterated horse manure but the Kansas City Star needed "balance."
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on November 26, 2014, 04:44:15 AM
Long time lurker here.  Mr. Neville, the story Ric linked in the first post has photos.  Click the arrow on the right side of the photo of EA and the Electra at the top of the page.  The next photo is of the "Airwheel dust cover," and the third photo is of the "APU cover plate." ;)

Thank you Mr. Seats.  ;)

I see the bent-up 'dust cover' and I guess that can be more or less compared to details from the Airwheel manual / catalogue - IF the person investigating will do so and provide more.  I see the suggestion of a fit by the proximity of 'dust cover' to 'wheel' - and perhaps the fellow holding is expert at Airwheels and knows.  It remains to be conveyed without ambiguity.

Until then, it's so much junk by all I can tell from that picture alone.   ???

I have no idea how the nifty weather-worn 'red' (it is) "APU cover" would relate to NR16020 - or any Electra.  Despite the familiar shape, it does not relate to the battery plug installation on the nacelle that is known of - which has no cover.  That battery plug is the closest I can get to anything remotely close to an "APU" for ground starts.  It's actually cannot be related to an APU at all if it is part of an Electra, which the model 10 Electra did not have aboard. 

There again, those claiming these parts to relate to Earhart need to show a clear correlation to something on her airplane.  All we have here is a lone, intriguing but ambiguous oval red-painted cover for something.  The two screw holes (I take them to be) actually suggest a cover for something other than a battery plug, by the way - there'd be no place on the battery plug for retaining screws as suggested by the holes in this plate.  I suggest look the bird over for some access port somewhere that uses similarly spaced screw holes for security.  It may be in the guts of the airplane - a gearbox or something in or under the cockpit floor, etc.  Good luck. 

Afterthought - oddly, it may even be found in time that this was an external cover for something on a Japanese airplane that happened to lie within the bounds of one of those infamous big red 'dots' (Monty explained it better upstring) that was painted onto their warplanes - that alone would be a neat find, whatever it is.  Earhart's airplane was not trimmed in 'red' but international orange, so I doubt that match will prove out for reasons of paint, either.

We've faced the same challenges with 2-2-V-1 and the window patch - still do: it's tough making something that might fit prove into something that did fit.  We're still going to all lengths to get photos, etc. to back up the 'might be a fit' effort.  2-2-V-1 is clearly an oddball - no obvious match to mother structure, but innovated; if it came from another type it still is not an obvious fit so far, despite all the tempting 'matching rivet lines' that have been pointed out (they've been as thoroughly checked as we know how to do - no match).

Having been a tiny part of that effort I can appreciate what our Marshall Islands friends now face to make even 'obvious' Electra parts fit the stepdaughter's foot that she might be brought to court.  Those articles are not obvious to me so far, and somehow I am not optimistic for the outcome they face.  Maybe the red cover sorts out to be distinctly 'Electra' - maybe not; even if the 'dust cover' is a match to the Airwheel, I'm not sure the Electra was the only user of that type of wheel - or that it wasn't copied by the Japanese, in fact.  That is something else that would have to be sorted out beyond doubt. 

But my hat's off to any who undertake all that to make this stick - or to stomach reaching a negative in their hypothesis.  It is not an easy 'game' - and in fact as I've learned, it is no game at all but a lot of hard work.

I hope the legalities will be resolved well enough, but what Ric has described is troubling, to say the least.  It's uncomfortable to think of holding ill-gotten stuff to make this point.  I'm sure that somehow these explorers will have to find a way to make that right.  Messy, and something for the whole community to learn from - get your bureaucratic ducks in a row before you start shooting.  Above board relations with the host country and legitimate recovery are among tne details that separate the games from hard work.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Dan Swift on November 26, 2014, 03:32:29 PM
A newpaper "needed balance"??  Since when! 
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on December 04, 2014, 08:46:28 AM
Plodding through some of my reference books, I think what this group believes is the APU cover off of Amelia and Fred's Electra (which we know didn't have such a cover), might be an access plate cover from the outer wing of a Japanese land-based Zero fighter or the float-equipped Rufe variant. Trying to find a better image but any kind of detailed, in-the-weeds documentation about WW II Japanese aircraft is difficult to find. Darn good chance it's from some other Japanese type.

The red paint is an important clue, but without a composition and country-of-origin analysis, the red paint in and of itself doesn't mean much. Even less so the landing gear dust cover. Although I will point out that the primer used on a number of early-war Japanese aircraft was a reddish hue.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP

P.S. - read the comments on the KC newspaper story if you want a head shaking WTH moment.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Tim Collins on December 04, 2014, 09:11:28 AM
P.S. - read the comments on the KC newspaper story if you want a head shaking WTH moment.

Now there's an understatement if ever I heard one.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on December 04, 2014, 09:47:22 AM
I don't think 'newspaper' (figure of speech today) comment logs are much of a forum.  I don't have a problem with critical comment.  I think we'd all be better off focusing on the hard science, as best we can.  Some of us are limited in that way, but can encourage it as a more pure approach.

Part of dealing with criticism is to know why you look where you look and don't apologize for that.  I say that because if you look carefully, a lot of criticism carries an undertone, if not direct commentary, that 'they're crazy for looking out at Niku anyway' - and I'd say the Gardner Arrival is as likely as some other things, if not more so... blah-blah-blah.

I've grown up a lot here.  What has come to mean the most is integrity of process - when we're doing our dead-level best to seek real answers to that which we hypothesize, and stand prepared to see it through in the case of a positive or negative.  If we work short of that, then we're not serious.  I'm sure we've been less than perfect at times, but maybe we're not that bad all the time either - and maybe we learn more about keeping these things between the rails of scientific sanity.  Much of the criticism can be worthy to sharpen that process, but some of it will always be noise - it's human nature.  But as to newspaper commentary... well, I can go be a self-imagined assistant Secretary of State if I want to be, for 8 seconds, by beating my chest on a major outlet somewhere as to world hunger and peace I suppose.

Don't know what else to say...

Good work on the cover plate, Monty.  It would be cool to nail that down, whatever it is.  At some prodding that I need to answer, I also need to look for an Airwheel manual / catalogue - would like to know more about the 'dust cover', however much I doubt a tie to Earhart's airplane.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 04, 2014, 11:52:35 AM
Jeff,

             I have been looking and looking, all photos I have viewed in the Purdue files and elsewhere, don't seem to show the dust covers installed on her Electra at any point ,( even when new) http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/351/rec/46 , maybe there are some, however; I haven't come across them as yet......The Barre Atoll people seem to imply ( in their photo ops) that the cover would attach to the small non-brake end of the hub, and I think that is true....In some photos under zoom one can see the 3 attaching screws on the small hub end that would accommodate this cover, ....yet no cover in any photo that I have found, http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/296/rec/102  http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/782/rec/67
...if she had them in her plane,.. (they seem to be listed in the luke field inventory .... 62 1 Ea. Cover Plates for wheels ), ...and didn't use them up until the Lae landing , and I don't know this as fact , but I would assume they would have been on the ship home list after the reduction in onboard materials, performed before final takeoff.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 04, 2014, 08:41:59 PM
Looking closely at the Goodyear Wheel,

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/41_WheelofFortune/41_Wheel.html.... note the small holes on the outer edge of the rim...If this is where the dust cover attaches, the Goodyear model has three ( 3) holes for that purpose.

Looking at the artifact that the Barre atoll party found , it appears by the spacing of what appears to be holes in the outer rim, that this particular cover would have four (4) attachment points....therefore; would this cover fit Earhart's Electra wheels?

https://earharttruth.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/spink-donut2.png

 The Barre atoll party, seem adamant that they have a dust cover for the Electra ,.....were there any earlier/later hub designs that had a four hole screw pattern? I am unable to view a clear enough capture of the wheel hub on Earhart's electra to verify that her's was indeed three (3 ) hole design. If it is discovered that hers carried the ( 3 ) hole design , it could go a long way in dis-qualifying their artifact as from her plane.



 

Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on December 05, 2014, 07:47:33 AM
I think the real source to solve this is in the photos - did Earhart's Electra have such dust covers? 

Maybe perusing the Purdue site can yield photo evidence.  If I had to bet right now I'd bet against such a cover being on her bird, but if those folks want to wring their effort dry that'd be a place to look.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 05, 2014, 08:36:44 AM
Two sets of photos - March 14, 1937 and June 30 or July 1, 1937.
Prior to the first word flight attempt the inside of the wheel looks like it might have a cover.

In the photo taken in Lae it's pretty clear that there is no cover.

Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 05, 2014, 09:32:04 AM
    I believe,the inner portion of the hub carries the brake mechanism, and it is my thought that what looks like a cover on the somewhat larger inboard portion of the hub, is the backside of the hydraulic brake cylinder. If we can get a good capture of the smaller outboard hub, as in the wheel of fortune museum wheel view, it may show us how many attaching screws were on the Earhart plane.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 05, 2014, 09:56:31 AM
I have uploaded all of the pictures (https://plus.google.com/photos/113407981301055162259/albums/6089396269535847025?authkey=CM-1wLXhk-yJuwE) I took with Howard Alldred of two Lockheed Electra 10A airframes in Auckland, New Zealand.

It was the summer of the Wheel of Fortune (http://tighar.org/wiki/WOF).  We were also pretty preoccupied with figuring out what the "wreck photo" (http://tighar.org/wiki/The_Wreck_Photo) showed.

It was the only time I've been up close and personal with an Electra.  I may have seen one or two in Oshkosh, but I don't seem to have any closeups in hand.

I have no idea how the Auckland photos might relate to this conversation.  They may be totally irrelevant and, if so, my apologies in advance.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 05, 2014, 10:05:34 AM
There's a LOT of variation in wheels on Lockheed Electras, but the question is very straightforward.  What did the wheels on NR16020 look like at the time it disappeared? 
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on December 05, 2014, 11:15:00 AM
That would be the clincher, at least as to whether NR16020 had such covers or not (but not whether, if it did, that the one found is of the same).

On the fringe lies the challenge of 'what are the chances of arrival' at Barre Atoll?  I realize every arrival hypothesis other-than 'near Howland' involves some degree of that concern; the further from Howland and the line of position one's presumption gets, however, the more ominous that challenge seems to get, in my view.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 05, 2014, 11:49:28 AM
From an attentive reader:

According to the picture of the dust cover, if flattened out it would measure at least 8 inches. The wheel was 6 inches as defined in the inspection report.  What part of it is not from an Electra L-10E don't they get?

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Reports/AircraftInspection.pdf (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Reports/AircraftInspection.pdf)

Attached is a picture of the wheel in Bandoeng.  It has no dust cover.

Another post was made by a "Ric Gillespie" in 2012 with several other pictures purporting to be of Earhart's Electra (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,583.msg8750.html#msg8750).
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 05, 2014, 12:04:29 PM
  Looking at the photo in the Wheel of fortune article, http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/41_WheelofFortune/41_Wheel.html
it does appear that the outboard outer rim measurements are about 8 inches....would the six inch figure be the inside hub/tire hole diameter? ....again, I haven't, seen the dust covers installed on her plane at any time.....(they are listed in the luke field inventory as being on board)...., if she had them along on the second attempt, it doesn't appear as if they were installed....I note the air valve stem on this portion of the hub as well...access to it may be a reason for the cover's omission.
Still working on a good view of the outward hub, to try to determine if Earhart's wheels had 3, 4, or more attaching points.

http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/329/rec/546

Marty,

http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,583.msg8750.html#msg8750

That first photo appears to have 3 screws/ holes IMO , and look offset enough.

<a href="http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/muledeer5/media/Richie/86cb2b87-06ab-4c97-a7ac-4d78c9c163a5_zpsd10946ef.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/muledeer5/Richie/86cb2b87-06ab-4c97-a7ac-4d78c9c163a5_zpsd10946ef.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 86cb2b87-06ab-4c97-a7ac-4d78c9c163a5_zpsd10946ef.jpg"/></a>

Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on December 06, 2014, 05:31:34 PM
Has anyone located a decent graphic or photo of the dust cover on an airwheel?  I feel like I need to better understand what one of these would look like when actually installed.

My understanding is that the dust cover was installed on the inboard side of the airwheel.

Looking at the attached photo of Earhart's Electra in Java found in the Purdue archives here:

http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/321/rec/10 (http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/321/rec/10)

There is a decent shot of the inside of the airwheel - blown up and attached below - but I can't really tell if there is a cover, somehow molded over the underlying structures, or not.  My impression is that there is not a dust cover in this photo, but I don't feel that I know enough about how the dust cover was installed to be sure.

Thoughts?

amck
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on December 06, 2014, 05:42:25 PM
Here is another shot from Senegal

http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/294/rec/27 (http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/294/rec/27)

cropped bit attached

Is that a dust cover or not?  I don't know what one looks like, so... doesn't look like one to me, but

amck
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 06, 2014, 10:19:57 PM
RIC GILLESPIE
Executive Director
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Posts: 3596
 
X    Re: Dust cover and cover plate
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 10:54:51 AM »Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I haven't seen are photos of NR16020 pointing out the pieces they think they have. 
The Electra did not have an auxiliary power unit but I think it did have a place to plug in an external electrical power source for what we used to call a "cart start."
Quote

Here is one in use;

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/7449876616/sizes/h/in/pool-1500493@N20/

Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 06, 2014, 11:07:54 PM
Here is another shot from Senegal

http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/294/rec/27 (http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/294/rec/27)

cropped bit attached

Is that a dust cover or not?  I don't know what one looks like, so... doesn't look like one to me, but

amck

Andrew,

           This is a pretty good view of the larger inboard brake side of the hub;

<a href="http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/muledeer5/media/brakeassemblytwonotethefourbolts_zps74265162.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/muledeer5/brakeassemblytwonotethefourbolts_zps74265162.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo brakeassemblytwonotethefourbolts_zps74265162.jpg"/></a>

    It looks like a cover from afar, ( inserted in working position , even more so), however; it is part of the hydraulic brake assembly.

Also Marty posted some good pictures ofthe inboard /outboard sides of the hub here;https://plus.google.com/photos/+MartinMoleski/albums/6089396269535847025?authkey=CM-1wLXhk-yJuwE#photos/+MartinMoleski/albums/6089396269535847025?authkey=CM-1wLXhk-yJuwE

This is just speculation on my part , however in this photo  http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/329/rec/546 and others it appears as if there is a groove in the center of the edge around the rim,...my ideas are that the lip/tab of the dust cover fits into this groove , to provide a seal all around the outer edge and to secure it in place with  just the use of three small screws, due to wedging action. I am still in search of dust cover photos.....also center hole of dust cover,....would one expect to find an oiled rope , rubber seal, of felt placed there to seal around the axle? Would be great to find a cover photo.

Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on December 07, 2014, 03:00:04 PM
Been trying to find a photo of an air wheel with a dust cover on it to compare.

Here is a photo in the Purdue collection that is not AE's Electra, but has a decent shot of the dust cover (I think) in place.

http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/742/rec/113 (http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/742/rec/113)

Is that any different than the photo of AE's aircraft in Java found here

http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/321/rec/11

Is the dust cover molded over the hub in the way it appears in these photos?

amck
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 07, 2014, 03:24:03 PM
Is the dust cover molded over the hub in the way it appears in these photos?

I'm no A&P, and I don't play one in my dreams, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I think it's possible that what you are calling a "dust cover" is actually the brake drum on the inside of the wheel. 

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-iMRABDZiUCQ/VIHhp47xzbI/AAAAAAAAAv8/rywZuK0w-hY/w1105-h829-no/auck05%2B020.jpg)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on December 07, 2014, 03:33:51 PM
Second that, and no longer a playing A&P and generally stay at Super 8 or the one with the light on.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on December 07, 2014, 05:26:14 PM
The photo Jerry Germann highlighted, https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/7449876616/sizes/h/in/pool-1500493@N20 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/7449876616/sizes/h/in/pool-1500493@N20), pretty conclusively proves (to a reasonable person), that Earhart's aircraft did not have any kind of cover over the external power connector:

1) External power connector receptacle is clearly visible in the photo. No evidence of any kind of cover.
2) Large, rectangular charging bus is plugged into receptacle, appearing to fill it entirely, with no evidence of a cover lifted or swung to the side, etc.
3) A battery is clearly at the other end of the cable that is plugged into the receptacle.
4) No evidence of any kind of cover lying on the ground under the engine or near the battery, if it was of the removable type.

I think this group has found a remnant from one of the myriad of Japanese types that operated in the area. The reddish paint remnants could be from either the national insignia, which were a bright red, or from the reddish primer that some Japanese types were undercoated with.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP



Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on December 07, 2014, 05:51:37 PM
Marty

I've seen your photo, and what I think is missing is the dust cover, which I understand to be a thin sheet that was intended to fit over the inboard hub seen in your photo, i.e. the aircraft in your photo doesn't have it in place for whatever reason.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but that is my understanding.  I'm hoping to find some close up photo that shows the dust cover in place.  If it is in your photo, I'm not seeing it, so please help me understand if you think the dust cover is there.

Thanks

Andrew


Is the dust cover molded over the hub in the way it appears in these photos?

I'm no A&P, and I don't play one in my dreams, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I think it's possible that what you are calling a "dust cover" is actually the brake drum on the inside of the wheel. 
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on December 07, 2014, 06:01:51 PM
There has been some discussion on this Forum and others about how the dust covers are listed on the Luke Field inventory taken after the crash in Hawaii as "cover plates for wheels" show that Earhart's Electra had the dust covers installed.  I've spent some time looking at that inventory, found here:  http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Luke_Field.html (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Luke_Field.html)

and have some impressions with regards to these "cover plates".

On the first page of the inventory, an official RECEIPT form is used, while the subsequent pages are "loose sheets" titled by Sheet No. 1, 2, etc.  The RECEIPT has all the large items for the aircraft, fuselage, engines, wings, tail feathers, and of interest is Item #5 - "Two (2) Landing gear forks with wheels & tires"

It struck me odd that the "cover plates for wheels" found on Sheet No. 3 are listed separately from the rest of the landing gear on the fist page RECEIPT.

Look at the items adjacent to the cover plates on the list from Sheet No. 3

spare cans of lubrication
spare brake fluid
Carton of spare propellor bearings
Base Plate for speed and drift meter
Pkg of rubber vent covers
Cover plates for wheels
Snap ring
Control column Wheel
2 pcs of sheet metal Alcoa
Etc

Most of these items seem like spare parts, and I think these cover plates were spares as well.

Why are they listed separately from the landing gear while other components of the landing gear are not singled out, such as the mud fender?  Note also that the gear forks still had their wheels and tires on them, as found on the RECEIPT.  How to you get the dust covers off the wheel to be inventoried separately when the wheel and tires are still on the forks?

If the cover plates for wheels are the same as the dust covers, all this indicates is that there were some spares aboard during the first attempt.  That doesn't mean they weren't installed or carried as spares on the second attempt, just that the Luke Field inventory may not support that conclusion.  The photos will tell the tale there.

If the cover plates for wheels are not the same as dust covers, what are they?

Andrew
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on December 07, 2014, 07:39:24 PM
Can we determine when the photo Jerry Germann linked us to was taken?

Has the DF loop, dorsal V antennae, looks like California, Hangar says Western Air Express.  When?


https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/7449876616/sizes/h/in/pool-1500493@N20/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/7449876616/sizes/h/in/pool-1500493@N20/)

Andrew
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 07, 2014, 07:45:38 PM
Can we determine when the photo Jerry Germann linked us to was taken?

The loop was installed on or about March 6.  They left for Hawaii March 17.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 07, 2014, 08:39:56 PM
I've seen your photo, and what I think is missing is the dust cover, which I understand to be a thin sheet that was intended to fit over the inboard hub seen in your photo, i.e. the aircraft in your photo doesn't have it in place for whatever reason.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but that is my understanding.  I'm hoping to find some close up photo that shows the dust cover in place.  If it is in your photo, I'm not seeing it, so please help me understand if you think the dust cover is there.

I'm not seeing a dust cover in any photographs of NR16020.  I don't see a rationale for a dust cover on the inboard of the wheels, which are pretty well covered by what seems to me to be the housing for the brake assembly. 

I presume that the "dust covers" were essentially like hub caps.  I see from a Google search that the function of the dust covers was to keep dirt out of the wheel bearings, and I can see how that might be helpful, maybe. But, to my unprofessional eye, all the photos I've seen of the outside of the wheels on AE's Electra seem to me to be uncovered.



Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on December 07, 2014, 09:05:55 PM
Marty

From my understanding, the dust covers were on the inboard side of the wheel, so they must have served some function to protect the brake assembly, keeping dust out of the brakes I guess.  This is what I'm trying to definitively understand.

It would make sense that the photos of the outside of the wheels don't have dust covers, as you observed, as the dust covers were only installed on the inside of the wheel - I think - but I'd like to confirm.

Anyone have a better understanding?

Andrew

Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 07, 2014, 09:19:36 PM
From my understanding, the dust covers were on the inboard side of the wheel, so they must have served some function to protect the brake assembly, keeping dust out of the brakes I guess.  This is what I'm trying to definitively understand.

What is the source of that idea?  Have you got a photo of any such dust cover (hub cap) installed over the brake assembly?

Most hub caps that I've seen go on the side of the wheel opposite the brake assembly.  I'm thinking of Piper Cubs and the like. 

(http://hawaii.gov/hawaiiaviation%3E/aviation-photos/1930-1939/amelia-earhart/1937-3-19%20Amelia%20Earhart%2004.jpg)

Source: Hawaii.gov. (http://hawaii.gov/hawaiiaviation%3E/aviation-photos/1930-1939/amelia-earhart/ha_photo_album_view?b_start:int=24&-C=)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on December 07, 2014, 10:01:52 PM
Marty

No, I don't have such a definitive photo showing the dust cover on either side, that is what I'm looking for so we all know what we're talking about, as I believe we are not all talking about the same thing.

From what I've been able to gather, the dust cover is intended on the inboard hub, not the outboard hub.

See my post #49 earlier today.  Those are both photos of the inboard side of the wheel.  compare those to your photo of the inboard side of the NZ electra, and it looks like there could be a thin metal dust cover over the brake assembly.

The exact nature of the dust cover is what I'm trying to get straight in my understanding.

amck
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 07, 2014, 10:19:26 PM
Andrew,

              This story; http://earhartonsaipan.blogspot.com/ , I admit is a bit confusing to follow. Two things.....First , the gentlemen who found this artifact say they know what it is, they say they know where it fits....looking at the first photo of the gentlemen with the artifact and hub on the table, one sees that they place it on the smaller 8" outboard end of the hub. Are They correct? I am not 100% sure , but I believe they are.
Now comes a monkey wrench and I can see how the article becomes confusing; Farther down in the story, they post a picture of the inboard brake assembly, and state that the dust cover fits between the brake assembly unit and the wheel ,... sounds like it should go right in between the disks pictured and the outboard hub....if that is true, would that dust cover be 12" or a bit smaller in diameter? I can not say that a placement of a dust shield in there somewhere wouldn't be a bad idea....maybe someone at Lockheed Goodyear says, lets stop brake dust from entering the wheel bearing on the inboard side and traveling along the axle to the outboard side and contaminating the entire assembly.

Question.....would the gentleman who sourced the image of the hub , be able to help us?
Does he or anyone else have that catalog?


Earhart’s 10E Special NR16020 featured Goodyear Airwheels. TIGHAR collection courtesy W. Larkins

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=wheel+of+fortune+tighar&qpvt=wheel+of+fortune+tighar&qpvt=wheel+of+fortune+tighar&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=AE837DBDC3092D2E9D6EADDB184409B9B9CF5080&selectedIndex=2
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 08, 2014, 07:22:33 AM
This is a pretty good view of the larger inboard brake side of the hub;

"http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/muledeer5/media/brakeassemblytwonotethefourbolts_zps74265162.jpg.html (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/muledeer5/media/brakeassemblytwonotethefourbolts_zps74265162.jpg.html)"

It looks like a cover from afar, ( inserted in working position , even more so), however; it is part of the hydraulic brake assembly.

Yes, that is a very good image.  I don't see any place for a dust cover (hub cap) on that side of the wheel.  The multiple discs that spin with the wheel have notches that slide into the grooves in the wheel's hub.  There is no way to add a dust cover inside that part of the system; the part that is fixed to the axle contains the hydraulics that would drive the braking mechanism; and the outside plate of that mechanism is sufficient to keep airfield dust out of the system.





(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/muledeer5/brakeassemblytwonotethefourbolts_zps74265162.jpg)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 08, 2014, 08:55:45 AM
My thought is (viewing the gentlemen around the table) is; ....they believe what they discovered fits on the small outboard end of the hub. As Ric pointed out earlier in the thread , ...there are a lot of variations in hubs ,....what was on her plane when she left lae would be the important issue , as to whether their cover would fit on her Electra wheels or not. The object they have appears to be the correct size, shape, has the center hole, etc......I haven't seen a report as to how many attaching screws they believe their cover seems to have , however the way I view their cover , it appears that there would be a four (4),screw....+ pattern, https://earharttruth.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/spink-donut2.png  .....,I assume their hub has the same count, ....How many attaching points did earharts electra wheels have? If it can be established that they had only three (3) , ( I think so), http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/muledeer5/Richie/86cb2b87-06ab-4c97-a7ac-4d78c9c163a5_zpsd10946ef.jpg  ,it would be an important point.

Images of cover plates ;

http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mocZL5XyHFGDWfhn4G7I0UA.jpg
http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mdh7hfL4SeSCEAx77Ye9lGw.jpg
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 08, 2014, 09:37:24 AM
My thought is (viewing the gentlemen around the table) is; ....they believe what they discovered fits on the small outboard end of the hub.

That's certainly what the photo of them, a hub, and the cover plate suggests (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ope1NLsZB-c/VG7UvkSLAlI/AAAAAAAAJbc/UOjHrqnEjDw/s1600/10477886_10202718429911379_6442115419081315756_n.jpg). 

In that case, it's a hub cap, and should appear in photos during the flight.

But, as you note above, the text and the other photo suggest it is mounted between the wheel and the brake assembly.  In that case, photos are not ever going to reveal it, because it is not visible when the wheel is mounted on the axle.

I guess they'll just have to go get some samples from Goodyear airwheels to show what they've got.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 08, 2014, 09:38:04 AM
Maybe I missed it, but has anybody produced any documentation to show that there is any such thing as a "dust cover" for Goodyear Airwheels?
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 08, 2014, 09:46:07 AM
Maybe I missed it, but has anybody produced any documentation to show that there is any such thing as a "dust cover" for Goodyear Airwheels?

Andrew referred to the Luke Field Inventory, sheet #3, item 62: (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Luke_Field.html) "1 Ea. Cover Plates for wheels."

Would there be some other kind of "cover plate" involved in the landing gear system?
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Dan Swift on December 08, 2014, 10:08:58 AM
Nope.  Here's a pic of another "10" with the same wheels.  This shows both mains in one shot. 
Brake assembly on inside and nothing on outside.  I have only seen dust covers on versions of main gear with only outside "fork" where it is easliy removed without taking the entire wheel off...as you would have to do with AE's Electra because of the two sided "fork". 
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Tim Collins on December 08, 2014, 10:10:01 AM
That's certainly what the photo of them, a hub, and the cover plate suggests (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ope1NLsZB-c/VG7UvkSLAlI/AAAAAAAAJbc/UOjHrqnEjDw/s1600/10477886_10202718429911379_6442115419081315756_n.jpg). 

Note also that they've clearly been drinking!
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 08, 2014, 10:15:42 AM
Would there be some other kind of "cover plate" involved in the landing gear system?

Yes.  Lockheed Engineering Drawing 40409 shows "Cover Plate Surface Controls Wheel Shaft Housing".  I'm not sure where it goes but it's a skinny rectangular plate about 9 inches long by about 2 inches wide that looks nothing like the thing represented to be a "dust cover."   There are no other "cover plates" or "dust covers" listed among the 2,000 or so drawings.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 08, 2014, 10:18:33 AM
Nope.  Here's a pic of another "10" with the same wheels.  This shows both mains in one shot. 
Brake assembly on inside and nothing on outside.  I have only seen dust covers on versions of main gear with only outside "fork" where it is easliy removed without taking the entire wheel off...as you would have to do with AE's Electra because of the two sided "fork". 

Here is an image of the ones used on lighter craft;

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/1930-Goodyear-Airwheels-Akron-OH-Ad-Safe-Landings-Where-Ships-Never-Dared-Land-/231366373455?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35de82b04f

The article makes mention they are available for larger craft as well, and mentions that the entire hub/brake /assembly, etc is manufactured by Goodyear.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 08, 2014, 12:26:13 PM
Here is an interesting manual;

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/usa/lockheed/model-14-super-electra/lockheed-14-super-electra-service-manual.html

It includes the landing gear ( though a different version of than the 10E) , and explains how things work inside the hub.....page 89 shows the brake and it's components , it does show a dust shield, however; unlike the one the barre atoll people are speaking about. It looks as if it designed to hold out the elements from reaching the brake disks, and may be rubber or synthetic material.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 08, 2014, 02:48:26 PM
http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/usa/lockheed/model-14-super-electra/lockheed-14-super-electra-service-manual.html (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/usa/lockheed/model-14-super-electra/lockheed-14-super-electra-service-manual.html)

It includes the landing gear ( though a different version of the 10E) and explains how things work inside the hub.....page 89 shows the brake and its components , it does show a dust shield, however; unlike the one the barre atoll people are speaking about. It looks as if it designed to hold out the elements from reaching the brake disks, and may be rubber or synthetic material.

Great find!

I think it also explains how the "multi-disc" braking system worked.

Both the rotating and the fixed elements are free to slide in and out on the keys.

The braking must have been accomplished by pressing all the plates together, making the plates slide on their respective keyed hubs and producing friction between the rotating bronze disks and the fixed steel disks.  When pressure is released, the discs space themselves back out and the wheels turn freely again.

Very elegant!

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/k_GnVicdaWs9R2LcJfiuqa_t9LSFDjqJ5O6jLfPQamM=w848-h893-no)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 08, 2014, 03:10:49 PM
Here is an image of the ones used on lighter craft;

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/1930-Goodyear-Airwheels-Akron-OH-Ad-Safe-Landings-Where-Ships-Never-Dared-Land-/231366373455?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35de82b04f (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/1930-Goodyear-Airwheels-Akron-OH-Ad-Safe-Landings-Where-Ships-Never-Dared-Land-/231366373455?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35de82b04f)

The article makes mention they are available for larger craft as well, and mentions that the entire hub/brake /assembly, etc is manufactured by Goodyear.

"A ground loop is almost impossible with Airwheels even if you try."  ::)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTM3NVgxMDAw/z/jr8AAOSwY45URtAN/$_57.JPG)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 08, 2014, 03:42:04 PM

It includes the landing gear ( though a different version of the 10E) and explains how things work inside the hub.....

The Model 14 is a completely different airplane than the Modl 10.  The military version was the Lockheed Hudson.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 08, 2014, 04:43:45 PM

It includes the landing gear ( though a different version of the 10E) and explains how things work inside the hub.....

The Model 14 is a completely different airplane than the Modl 10.  The military version was the Lockheed Hudson.

You're right, ... I meant to say it that way ...slip of the old tongue, I can see how it changed the sentence meaning entirely. ....
Here is an interesting manual;

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/usa/lockheed/model-14-super-electra/lockheed-14-super-electra-service-manual.html

It includes the landing gear ( though a different version of than the 10E) , and explains how things work inside the hub.....page 89 shows the brake and it's components , it does show a dust shield, however; unlike the one the barre atoll people are speaking about. It looks as if it designed to hold out the elements from reaching the brake disks, and may be rubber or synthetic material.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Friend Weller on December 08, 2014, 07:01:03 PM
Great find!

I think it also explains how the "multi-disc" braking system worked.

Both the rotating and the fixed elements are free to slide in and out on the keys.

The braking must have been accomplished by pressing all the plates together, making the plates slide on their respective keyed hubs and producing friction between the rotating bronze disks and the fixed steel disks.  When pressure is released, the discs space themselves back out and the wheels turn freely again.

Very elegant!

Reminds me of my my motorcycle's wet clutch.....!!  If I could find a service manual diagram you'd agree....
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 08, 2014, 08:52:28 PM
Reminds me of my my motorcycle's wet clutch.....!!  If I could find a service manual diagram you'd agree....

Bunches of diagrams on Google. (https://www.google.com/search?q=motorcycle+%22wet+clutch%22&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=bHGGVIHVGYTEgwTFn4SgAw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=890&bih=410#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=8fCtdXKcxNjrwM%253A%3Bn8ZUlA0qsL93xM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fs.hswstatic.com%252Fgif%252Fdual-clutch-transmission-10.gif%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fauto.howstuffworks.com%252Fdual-clutch-transmission1.htm%3B401%3B490)  I agree, I agree!
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on December 08, 2014, 11:32:17 PM

It includes the landing gear ( though a different version of the 10E) and explains how things work inside the hub.....

The Model 14 is a completely different airplane than the Modl 10.  The military version was the Lockheed Hudson.

I believe the Model 10 also used a different type of brake - an expanding shoe / drum type, not rotors and stators which were more modern.  The correct manual / catalogue would tell (can't find at moment).
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on December 08, 2014, 11:47:39 PM
Interesting that there is a "dust shield" internal to the brake in this L-14 brake system, but I'm not sure that is what the item recovered in Mili is thought to be.

Note on page 82 of the L-14 manual the instructions to remove the wheel:

REMOVAL OF WHEEL

1.  Remove cover plate (s) from face of wheel.
2.  Remove dust cap over axle nut.
3.  Remove AN 3 Bolt through castellations (?) of axle nut.
4.  Remove Axle nut.
5.  Slip wheel off axle being careful ...

see attached below

So, what exactly is the cover plate(s) in item no. 1  ?  I don't think it is shown in the exploded diagram of the brake system.

Did the L-10 have a similar item?  If so, and if it was intended to fit on the outside of the inboard hub, it should be some 12 inches in diameter, or at least designed to fit around the 12 inch diameter hub.  The object from Mili looks to be about 8 inches in diameter, and in the photo of the gentlemen sitting around the table with the airwheel on it have the "dust cover" on the smaller end, i.e. the outward side of the wheel, like a hub cap.  The ad posted by Marty show such a hub cap on the external hub, but the photos of AE's aircraft clearly show that there was not such hub cap installed on the outboard hubs during the world flight.

The more we get into this, the stranger it gets.

Andrew
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 09, 2014, 12:45:34 AM
Andrew,

          Concerning the dust shield on the L-14 brake assembly, ....it is my thought that it's purpose is to keep abrasives, water, etc out of the unit ....the bronze plates in my opinion would need to be protected from such in order to have a reasonable use life, as well as protecting the hydraulic acctuated piston from scratches, thus insuring it's ability in the containment of brake fluid. The Barre atoll party, are confident that the cover ( if it is such) fits on the outboard small end of the hub,....it seems reasonable to me, many examples of covers on the outboard end ( number 1 in the tireremoval procedure you mentioned)..it's like a hub cap.....keeping dirt /water out of the wheel bearings is important, as well as possibly protecting the air valve stem from damage. Why isn't it on any electra we see, I don't know , my guess is , maybe it was a big pain to deal with,....if it was designed the way the barre atoll people show it in their example, it has no air valve stem hole to add air, did it leak too much around what had to be a seal around the axle to function effectively, actually holding in more dirt than it kept out?....maybe a few other problems with it as well....( That is if it existed). Several views of the airwheel outboard hub show screw holes/ screws ....what if not holding a dust cover on is their purpose?

Jeff,

        The link to the manual on the L-14 is dated 1937 ...
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 09, 2014, 08:24:26 AM
I am wondering if the use of the phrase dust cover regarding the object the barre atoll party found is in error....the luke field inventory papers list them as cover plates for wheels, along with the L-14 manual identifying them as cover plates, in the wheel removal procedure. The goodyear air wheels seem to function without them , there surely are means to keep out contaminents from the wheel bearings without them. In another perspective;...In my opinion ,..Goodyear in it's pursuit to offer a functional and attractive product seemed to give attention to not only the the mechanics of the product , but the asthetic as well...Are the wheel covers, just that ....not to keep dust out, but to provide an appealing look to the eye, (covering up the studs/burrs with the lock wires running through them).... and possibly an aerodynamics improvement as well?
      I have never seen one, ...Mr Hayton says in the article , that he had three wheels at one time, he used two , and still has one in his possesion. If he would be so kind to share an image of this wheel with the attached dust cover (cover plate?)....it would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 09, 2014, 09:02:54 AM
... Goodyear in its pursuit to offer a functional and attractive product seemed to give attention to not only the the mechanics of the product , but the asthetic as well...Are the wheel covers, just that ....not to keep dust out, but to provide an appealing look to the eye, (covering up the studs/burrs with the lock wires running through them).... and possibly an aerodynamics improvement as well?

I tried searching for Goodyear Airwheel hub caps the other night, hoping to see some for the doghouse-style landing gear used on the Electra, but Goodyear seems to have also produced Airwheels for cars. 

I thought I might have seen some hubcaps on other aircraft that used the Airwheels, but none of the images were clear enough (to my taste).
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Brian Ainslie on December 09, 2014, 11:47:30 AM
Forgive my amateur question, but going back to the line of thought about the cover(s) being a "spare" part carried on the aircraft (per the Luke Field Inventory), but not actually installed....why would one carry that particular part as a spare? It seems awfully specific and not very crucial to the performance/survivability of the aircraft.

Also, why carry a "spare" for something not actually installed?
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 09, 2014, 12:34:18 PM
Would there be some other kind of "cover plate" involved in the landing gear system?

Yes.  Lockheed Engineering Drawing 40409 shows "Cover Plate Surface Controls Wheel Shaft Housing".  I'm not sure where it goes but it's a skinny rectangular plate about 9 inches long by about 2 inches wide that looks nothing like the thing represented to be a "dust cover."   There are no other "cover plates" or "dust covers" listed among the 2,000 or so drawings.

Hmmm.  Curioser and curioser.  I think I know the meaning of each one of these words, but when they are all put in a row like this, I can't produce a clear meaning: ""Cover Plate Surface Controls Wheel Shaft Housing."

I suppose a peek inside an L-10 "Wheel Shaft Housing" would answer the question.  If I knew what a "Wheel Shaft Housing" is.  :(

At any rate, thanks for looking it up.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 09, 2014, 12:53:16 PM
I believe the Model 10 also used a different type of brake - an expanding shoe / drum type, not rotors and stators which were more modern.  The correct manual / catalogue would tell (can't find at moment).

The catalogue shown in the Wheel of Fortune research report (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/41_WheelofFortune/41_Wheel.html) shows a "Multiple Disc Airwheel Hub."  The next entry in the catalog is entitled "Multiple Disc Brake."  The caption under the drawing of the hub says that this was used in the Lockheed L-10. 

(http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/41_WheelofFortune/catalog.jpg)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on December 09, 2014, 12:55:27 PM
Ah, OK - thanks Marty!  My bad on that detail.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 09, 2014, 01:07:54 PM
Beautiful photo of a Lockheed L-12 sporting what seems to be Airwheels with hub caps.  From a faithful reader, who notes that the use of hub caps is made possible by the "single yoke gear" on the 12 (as on the 14).

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fpABaN2k7pc/VIdV0VWtdBI/AAAAAAAAA04/1YbDM4LU1G0/w640-h394-no/N228M_Lockheed_12A_NCA_PHL_10071968_1280a%2B%281%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 09, 2014, 02:08:31 PM
I believe the Model 10 also used a different type of brake - an expanding shoe / drum type, not rotors and stators which were more modern.  The correct manual / catalogue would tell (can't find at moment).

The catalogue shown in the Wheel of Fortune research report (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/41_WheelofFortune/41_Wheel.html) shows a "Multiple Disc Airwheel Hub."  The next entry in the catalog is entitled "Multiple Disc Brake."  The caption under the drawing of the hub says that this was used in the Lockheed L-10. 

(http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/41_WheelofFortune/catalog.jpg)

       Concerning the catalog, does anyone here have access to it, or is it privately owned? Note the wheel photo in the wheel of fortune report;....It appears to be a Goodyear Air- wheel unit, installed on a double yoke, ....there are three (3) screw holes on the edge of the hub rim....what would attach there?

 
Forgive my amateur question, but going back to the line of thought about the cover(s) being a "spare" part carried on the aircraft (per the Luke Field Inventory), but not actually installed....why would one carry that particular part as a spare? It seems awfully specific and not very crucial to the performance/survivability of the aircraft.

Also, why carry a "spare" for something not actually installed?


My thought is;  (I could be wrong)... that they weren't spares , they might have been original equipment, and brought along for a just in case scenario, or they came with the plane so leave them in storage, along with any other unused accessory that may have accompanied it during purchase. In my opinion; for what it is worth, ..( I could be wrong again) ....during the lightening of the Electra at Lae, I would assume, that if they had been aboard ( as mentioned in the first attempt , and if the cover plates are actually what Mr Spink says they are), that they at that time may have been considered useless dead weight and left behind, (as it appears they weren't used during the second attempt through photos of the wheels during that journey).

Help.....
            In this critical past video;     http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675063657_Amelia-Earhart-Putnam_Fred-Noonan_transatlantic-flight_Fred-Noonan  ,  .... at times while Paul Mantz is using the scale, one can see round type objects behind him ,....one looks like an inner tube? What are the other round objects?

P.S.    What are flight covers? Could the wheel covers listed in the Luke field inventory, be something other than aluminum? ( though they are referred to as plates).
http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/380/rec/522
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jeff Scott on December 09, 2014, 08:07:48 PM
P.S.    What are flight covers? Could the wheel covers listed in the Luke field inventory, be something other than aluminum? ( though they are referred to as plates).
http://e-archives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/380/rec/522

The flight covers were stamped envelopes she was taking around the world for sale as collectibles after her return. Hence, why they are being delivered by the Oakland Postmaster. Nothing to do with landing gear components.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 10, 2014, 07:59:53 AM
Thanks Jeff,
                   I thought as much,....( didn't see them listed in the Luke field inventory )......concerning the Airwheel pictured in the Wheel of fortune report.... that assembly is explained to fit on a single yoke gear, Lockheed 12 junior as well..... and seems that craft has cover plates ,( as per Marty's post on an example).....could explain the screw holes in the Earhart Electra hubs , multi-uses.....
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 10, 2014, 03:22:00 PM
How does the inner circle diameter measurement compare to the axle size .... trying to estimate and allow for damage,....would the center hole of the artifact be too small/ large enough/ way too large,  positioned, ( as Mr Spink/ Mr Hayton seemingly assume) , over the axle?

In this photo: it looks as if the center hole is about two and one half inches? Though it's condition may alter the actual original diameter.

https://earharttruth.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/spink-donut2.png

In the photo of the hub with tape measure; , it looks as if the axle diameter is three,....three and a half?

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/41_WheelofFortune/rimdiameter.jpg

Does anyone have the actual axle size?




Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: John Ousterhout on December 12, 2014, 12:41:16 PM
This photo (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/243/rec/8) from the Luke Field accident shows the inboard side of the collapsed left wheel, and this photo (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/263/rec/9) shows the opposite side of the same wheel.  I see no signs of a dust cover being used at that time.  Maybe someone with sharper eyes (and a faster computer) can see something.  Are we to believe she added them later?  That seems contrary to her usual desire to eliminate anything that was unnecessary.

I noticed that the interior surfaces of the engine cowling pieces in the first photo show what appear to be the Alclad indentification stampings, but the resolution isn't quite good enough to make them out in detail, at least not on my pc.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: pilotart on December 12, 2014, 03:48:09 PM
Looks just like the "Coaster Brake" did in my new 1949 Columbia Bicycle. ;D


Great find!

I think it also explains how the "multi-disc" braking system worked.

Both the rotating and the fixed elements are free to slide in and out on the keys.

The braking must have been accomplished by pressing all the plates together, making the plates slide on their respective keyed hubs and producing friction between the rotating bronze disks and the fixed steel disks.  When pressure is released, the discs space themselves back out and the wheels turn freely again.

Very elegant!

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/k_GnVicdaWs9R2LcJfiuqa_t9LSFDjqJ5O6jLfPQamM=w848-h893-no)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: pilotart on December 12, 2014, 03:56:29 PM
Quote
"A ground loop is almost impossible with Airwheels even if you try."  ::)
Now that's a crock....

Maybe as long as you keep it pointed straight down the runway and they're better on Turf for sure.

 They don't mention takeoff, wonder if Amelia read that before her Ground Loop on Takeoff with her Airwheels?
Here is an image of the ones used on lighter craft;

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/1930-Goodyear-Airwheels-Akron-OH-Ad-Safe-Landings-Where-Ships-Never-Dared-Land-/231366373455?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35de82b04f (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/1930-Goodyear-Airwheels-Akron-OH-Ad-Safe-Landings-Where-Ships-Never-Dared-Land-/231366373455?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35de82b04f)

The article makes mention they are available for larger craft as well, and mentions that the entire hub/brake /assembly, etc is manufactured by Goodyear.

"A ground loop is almost impossible with Airwheels even if you try."  ::)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTM3NVgxMDAw/z/jr8AAOSwY45URtAN/$_57.JPG)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ricker H Jones on December 12, 2014, 05:46:10 PM
The dust shield shown in the brake exploded diagram would seem to make a "dust cover" redundant, I would think.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ted G Campbell on December 12, 2014, 07:59:32 PM
All.
From experience:  The multi disc braking system operation is as follows (see M.  Moleski’s post no. 72).

The inner disc assembly – made up of the stationary steel and rotating bronze disc – is housed in a rotating break drum housing.

Thus the rotating bronze discs rotate with the tire.  The stationary steel discs are locked into the outer brake housing which in turn is locked onto the landing gear with retaining bolts/nuts and doesn’t turn.

Picture in your mind a beer can on the axel supported on either end by wheel bearings tied into the main wheel/tire assembly rotating within a stationary “coffee can”  housing the hydraulic system tied securely to the landing gear assembly – the hydraulic lines can’t rotate or they would shear and fail.

When hydraulic pressure from the break peddle is applied this causes a “ballooning” effect on the “wheel piston seal” which in turn compresses the rotating and stationary discs assembly causing friction and thus the breaking action.

The “dust shield” and the asbestos insulator disk are there to protect the rubber piston seal from contamination from the bronze/steel debris during and the heat generated during breaking.  The outer “coffee can” housing keeps runway “dust” out of the mechanism.

As to a “dust cover” on the outboard side of the wheel assembly on a through axel wheel/tire configuration, it would only protect the outboard wheel bearing.  This cover would have to be fixed to a rotating wheel/tire assembly in such a way as to allow the wheel/tire to spin freely with “maybe” a felt seal to rotate about the axel:  Remember the axel ran the full length of the wheel/tire assembly.

This wheel cover would have had to been instilled inside the outer strut and only needed an inside diameter to clear the stationary axel allowing for some type of felt or other material to rotate about the axel.

With regard to the “wheel cover” description in the Luke Field inventor I would guess this refers to some type of cover over pre-greased wheel/wheel bearing assemblies carried aboard; tires could easily be found if something went wrong but the wheel assembly that would be required would not – ship a wheel installed with bearings installed and pre grease and “covered”.

Bottom line – I don’t see where “wheel covers” come into play the L 10E conversation.

Ted Campbell
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 12, 2014, 08:55:56 PM
The multi disc braking system operation is as follows (see M.  Moleski’s post no. 72).

Thanks for the commentary from experience, Ted.  It is a very ingenious system!

I think the post with the nice expanded picture of all of the brass and steel disks is #71 in this thread. (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1602.msg35422.html#msg35422)  #72 has the ad for the Airwheels.

Quote
Bottom line – I don’t see where “wheel covers” come into play the L 10E conversation.

I agree, for what it's worth, at least in terms of what we've been able to turn up so far.

The wheel cover or dust plate found by the other folks certainly seems to be a real artifact.  It must have had a function in SOME system of SOME sort.  It certainly looks like it was damaged in an accident of SOME sort.  Maybe someone will come along and recognize it SOME day. 
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: James Champion on December 13, 2014, 09:28:48 AM
If you look at the Luke Field inventory that that others have referenced in this thread:

61    . . .
62    1 Ea. Cover Plates for wheels
63       "    Snap Ring
64    . . .

I can just see 1st Lt. D. M. Tites working through the items in the plane that are not labeled, and trying to come up with a descriptive name. Notice that line 62 is 1-each with Plates plural. The next item is a snap ring. It seems to me that he was describing exactly what is shown in the breakdown of the brake assembly, right down to a snap ring. To me this is no more than a spare set of brake parts that could have been swapped-out. If Tites had an electra manual to reference, he probably would have described them as "Nut and discs for wheel brakes"
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on December 29, 2014, 01:21:38 PM
Here is an image of a cover on a single yoke gear; It appears it has three attachment points, ....and of course is minus the center hole.

Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 29, 2014, 02:06:34 PM
Here is an image of a cover on a single yoke gear; It appears it has three attachment points, ....and of course is minus the center hole.

That photo is available from Wikimedia Commons (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NACA_Lockheed_12A_1940.jpeg).

Lockheed 12A, 1940.

NACA cowls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NACA_cowling) added a great deal to the performance of radial engines.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Thyra Piper on January 10, 2015, 08:10:51 PM
http://goo.gl/54Cdqa

This is an article posted 12/26/2014 in a local newspaper and also reference on KOMO news in Seattle.  I can find no reference to it on this site.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jeff Lange on January 11, 2015, 05:16:01 AM
I am amused by some of the quotes from this article, such as:

“Everybody brought back what they found and put it in a pile,”

They seem to use a different archaeological standard than other researchers.


"We brought back a dust cover that matches up pretty good with the Air Wheel.”

I think they will be surprised to find that "pretty good" doesn't make it in fit in the research game.

He is quoted numerous times using the terms "they most likely" or "most likely" which I find leaves his guessing open to a lot of conjecture. Oh well- everyone DOES have a theory!
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on January 13, 2015, 09:42:02 AM
I dunno, Jeff.

It seems like TIGHAR is the only group that is held to the double-super-secret-gold-standard for everything. Every other "Earhart mystery group" seems to be able to do or say whatever, under the "Throw enough stuff against the wall and some of it's bound to stick" method of mystery solving.

Which is why I have stuck with TIGHAR through the years.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bruce W Badgrow on January 13, 2015, 04:32:20 PM
There was a lot of military activity at Mili Atoll during World War 2. The Japanese built an airfield there in 1943. Mitsubishi A4M "Betty" bombers were known to have been stationed on Mili. The Betty used big balloon tires very similar to the Goodyear Airwheel. The wheel cover found on Mili was likely from a Betty. Three US military aircraft are known to have crashed on Mili Atoll. 

Bruce W Badgrow
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on January 14, 2015, 09:45:39 AM
Bruce, I agree that there was quite a bit of Japanese air activity at Mili during WWII, including both land aircraft fields and a seaplane base. One reason I think the access plate/whatever it is, is Japanese is the reddish paint residue. That strongly resembles one of the more common anti-corrosion paint colors the Japanese used during WWII. Earhart's plane had International Orange on the leading edges of the wings and the top of the stabilizer. That might, might mind you, have weathered to a reddish color in the ensuing seven decades - but that is an awful stretch and one that would be almost impossible to prove, I feel. Her plane did not have any red paint on it that I am aware of.

Trying to find where on a Japanese Rufe (float fighter), Zero (land fighter) or Betty (land bomber) that this very small piece of metal might have come from is beyond difficult. I've tried to find matches with my limited resources, without success to date. US aircraft that operated in that area include the P-39, P-40, B-24, B-25, SBD and F4E. The only US aircraft lost on Mili was a B-25 that was shot down and ditched in the lagoon. Theoretically the access plate could have come from an undocumented US crash, or the B-25, but the reddish paint is a disqualifier in my view.

To throw their assertions back at the leaders of this effort, I would like them to document where, exactly, on the Lockheed 10-E this cover plate might have come from. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades; this has to be an exact fit for them to garner any real credibility.

Talk is cheap. Answers are expensive. It's time for them to demonstrate exactly what they think they have. Otherwise, it's just more random chunks of aluminum from an area that is covered with random chunks of aluminum.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Craig Romig on January 14, 2015, 11:19:51 AM
I agree. They need to show proof that thier pieces came from her plane.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bill Mangus on January 18, 2015, 12:00:08 PM
Dr. King has an excellent article about all this in his blog:

     http://ameliaearhartarchaeology.blogspot.com/



Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: C.W. Herndon on January 19, 2015, 07:32:35 AM
Bruce, I agree that there was quite a bit of Japanese air activity at Mili during WWII, including both land aircraft fields and a seaplane base. One reason I think the access plate/whatever it is, is Japanese is the reddish paint residue. That strongly resembles one of the more common anti-corrosion paint colors the Japanese used during WWII. Earhart's plane had International Orange on the leading edges of the wings and the top of the stabilizer. That might, might mind you, have weathered to a reddish color in the ensuing seven decades - but that is an awful stretch and one that would be almost impossible to prove, I feel. Her plane did not have any red paint on it that I am aware of.

I posted the sample color chart below in a different thread on this Forum, but maybe it's time to post it again. The picture below came from this site (http://www.fed-std-595.com/FS-595-Paint-Spec.html) and shows how "international orange" paint looks. I will leave it to each of you to make up your own mind as to whether or not the color could be taken to be "red".
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on January 19, 2015, 07:38:08 AM
The picture below came from this site (http://www.fed-std-595.com/FS-595-Paint-Spec.html) and shows how "international orange" paint looks.

It is an indisputable matter of fact that "people disagree."

If you dispute that fact, you prove that it is true.   :)

People actually disagree about what is "international orange."  See Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_orange) for three examples of the color.

To make your point, you need to go find paint samples from the brand of paint used on AE's Lockheed in 1937.  Random internet colors designed for display on color monitors may or may not accurately show the orangeness or redness of the color used on her aircraft.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 30, 2015, 10:00:42 AM
There seem to be two groups pushing this latest Amelia-in-the-Marshalls nonsense.  There's the Lost Flight Group (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2015/01/prweb12472277.htm) featuring the inimitable Carol Dow and “explorer” Dick Spink, and then there’s Amelia Research, Inc. (http://www.mvariety.com/regional-news/73215-american-group-looks-for-amelia-earhart-clues-on-remote-marshalls-atoll.) sponsored by Parker Aerospace.
Sounds like it's going to get crowded on Mili. 
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bill Mangus on January 30, 2015, 10:29:53 AM
Perhaps they're just eager/anxious to get their story out there before the June expedition finds that the Sonar Anomaly is actually the fuselage of the Electra and everyone else's theory evaporates like a puddle in the hot, summer sun.  Hope the Mellon appeal doesn't disrupt the expedition timeline.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 30, 2015, 10:32:57 AM
Hope the Mellon appeal doesn't disrupt the expedition timeline.

Not a chance.  Nothing associated with the appeal requires my presence.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on March 07, 2015, 10:53:26 AM
Perhaps they're just eager/anxious to get their story out there before the June expedition finds that the Sonar Anomaly is actually the fuselage of the Electra and everyone else's theory evaporates like a puddle in the hot, summer sun. 

The Earhart Conspiracy Theory Industrial Complex will never allow that to happen, Bill. TECTIC has too many competing agendas to even acknowledge contradictory facts.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on April 15, 2015, 08:09:54 AM
Has it ever occurred to others than myself just how many fine roots have seemingly been cultivated in the soil of Earhart's fame and misfortune by virtue of a very invigorating fertilizer - which is that the lady may very possibly never be found so as to prove one wrong?

It can be very like religion itself: faith, not proof, gathers the masses; belief in the word, not that which is tangible, sustains.  And one may question another's faith only at the peril of needing to prove that which is unprovable: it cannot be proven that the intangible reality that is believed in by the believer does not exist in some humanly unknowable form.

Don't get me wrong - I am a 'believer' in the Spiritual sense... but that's as far as it goes, at least incrementally as I gain a bit more wisdom year by year.

What in the world would having the anomaly emerge miraculously as the L10's fuselage have to do with discouraging those who might well point to the absence of the whole airplane as rich ground for parts to also still turn up elsewhere - as the true place of loss?  At the very least, finding only a portion of the airframe anywhere would certainly feed those still bent on some sort of Japanese-American guvmint conspiracy thing.

For two thousand years there have existed two empty tombs that we know of (well promoted) in Jerusalem (or for at least a significant part of that two millenia).  One is at a 'traditional' site of crucifixion and interment near a 'skull' like place of rock (Golgotha), another in a garden setting and with a rolling stone type of closure - and situated below a rather 'skull' looking limestone hill/cliff (another suggested possible Golgotha).  Both are attended daily by hordes of pilgrims who bow there as kneeling to mark the 'true' place.  Not to confuse the Earhart absence from this veil with that of something on the order of the empty tomb, the point is humans are capable of just so much discernment and understanding; they also attach to that which is comfortable to their own unique psyches - and God Himself help you if you go there to change what they see as rational truth.

If TIGHAR drags up a chunk of Electra from Niku, or conversely, should Stratus do the same from the seabed somewhere, someone, somewhere, will still wonder at the shreds of things pulled from the surf a thousand or more miles away and what it was those people at TIGHAR or Stratus (or you name it) did to 'fake' the true splinter in the wrong place...  8)  ...or, just how was it that TIGHAR or Stratus or whomever couldn't see through what the Japanese did to scatter and hide the evidence of their misdeed.  :P

Seriously, what is it that gets all this focus on this or that faraway island?  I suspect it has to do with an unwillingness to accept the discomfort of an abrupt, violent ending at sea, or at the maw of hungry crabs instead of at the hands of the Japanese, or something. 

If Earhart could only speak... oh damn, now I've opened the psychic door...  ::)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Joy Diane Forster on May 28, 2015, 12:16:39 PM
OK, here's one for those of you who are entertained by the apparently misguided.  I'm pretty sure that the pictured "undisputed piece of Earhart's Aircraft" is not from the Electra....

Enjoy or debunk as you see fit.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/05/150528-amelia-earhart-spink-marshall-islands-aviation/ (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/05/150528-amelia-earhart-spink-marshall-islands-aviation/)

 :-\
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jeff Lange on May 29, 2015, 05:15:29 AM
What I find interesting about his "artifact" is that they say it came from a damaged vertical stabilizer from the crash. I don't recall seeing any damage on the vertical stabilizers in photos I have seen from crash. Anyone else recall any?
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on May 29, 2015, 05:44:31 AM
See the Dust Cover and Cover Plate discussion in this same TIGHAR forum: http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1602.0.html (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1602.0.html) .

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP

Please note: I have merged the last three posts into this thread.  It makes it a little uneven for the reader, but this is where the discussion belongs.   -- Marty
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jeff Scott on May 29, 2015, 10:07:16 PM
OK, here's one for those of you who are entertained by the apparently misguided.  I'm pretty sure that the pictured "undisputed piece of Earhart's Aircraft" is not from the Electra....

What I find interesting about his "artifact" is that they say it came from a damaged vertical stabilizer from the crash. I don't recall seeing any damage on the vertical stabilizers in photos I have seen from crash. Anyone else recall any?

I believe this item may very well be what the article claims it to be (sort of). The caption in the story says "A mechanic saved this original section of aluminum skin from the airplane’s horizontal stabilizer." However, the photo clearly looks like (and I believe the author intended to say) vertical stabilizer.

I have not been able to locate photos from the Hawaii crash that clearly show the aft fuselage and whether there was any damage to either of the vertical tails. However, the photos do clearly show the Electra had a slight roll to the right as it skidded down the runway, which would likely bring the starboard tail into contact with the ground.

Indeed, the official crash report states:

Quote
...The visible damage to the airplane was as follows:- Right wing and engine nacelle severely damaged, left engine nacelle damaged on under side, right hand rudder and end of stabilizer bent. The engines were undamaged. The oil tanks ruptured. ...

Source: http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Luke_Field_Crash_Report/LukeFieldProceedings.htm
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jeff Scott on May 30, 2015, 02:53:21 AM
I managed to locate a better view that shows the damage to the right-side tail surfaces. Based on this view, I see how the part in question could come from the lower vertical tail or the outer horizontal tail as well. The paint pattern actually seems to me to better match the wing itself, but it's hard to say exactly where the part comes from without more information.

Regardless, I don't see how it can be rejected out of hand as being unrelated to the Earhart Electra. The description in the article is supported by photos of the accident scene.

The real challenge of the Marshalls expedition is providing evidence that the "half-dozen other parts—jagged, weathered, and corroded aluminum" collected on Mili atoll are a match to the Electra or of World War II vintage. That is no easy feat, as TIGHAR's 25-year odyssey with artifact  2-2-V-1 has demonstrated.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on May 30, 2015, 08:02:05 AM
I don't think anyone is really disputing that the piece pictured in the article, attached here, came from the Electra.  It was apparently salvaged from the dumpster during the repair.

The items from the Marshall Islands that I've seen so far are the "air wheel dust cover" and the "external power port cover plate".    The problem is that the Electra had neither as far as anyone has been able to determine.  Looking at photos of the Electra late in the flight there are no dust covers on either side of the wheel hubs, and the external power port didn't have a cover plate.

There were something like 28 WWII aircraft that went down in and around the Marshall islands near Mili Atoll.  Lots of source material for scrap aluminum and cover plates.

Andrew

Andrew
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 30, 2015, 08:43:58 AM
Andrew is correct.  The piece was salvaged from a trash bin in the Lockheed repair shop by David Kenyon.  It is the port side top of the outboard horizontal stabilizer. The Lockheed decal was added by Kenyon's son many years later.  Shortly before Kenyon's death at 94 he sold it to a Lockheed 12 owner named Patrick Donovan with whom I am in touch.  The artifact is for sale for $25,000.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jeff Lange on May 30, 2015, 09:18:21 AM
Now it makes more sense- the decal was throwing me off, as it should be on the upper outside vertical stabilizer according to my trusty TIGHAR model. Thanks for the clarification Ric!
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on May 30, 2015, 10:02:09 AM
There were something like 28 WWII aircraft that went down in and around the Marshall islands near Mili Atoll.  Lots of source material for scrap aluminum and cover plates.

Andrew

Quite so, Andrew. And let's not forget that while the Allied losses are pretty well documented as to date, type, and circumstances, the Japanese loss records are not nearly as complete, or accessible to the public at large. And ... one of the favored Japanese primer coats for aircraft, for a time, was a rusty orange-reddish shade. Sound familiar? Not to mention the bright red national insignia, which would, over time, fade to a reddish-orange.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Michael HALL on May 30, 2015, 10:55:38 AM
Hi everyone,

Been always from the scene for a while now, but of course with the latest expedition on the way my interest has come back round ;)

Today I found an article in the UK paper Daily Mail, you guys probably have seen this and dismissed it but all the same made interesting reading more so as he thinks he has plane parts

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3103327/Mystery-Amelia-Earhart-s-disappearance-soon-solved-Metal-analysis-prove-landed-Marshall-Islands.html

Interested in everyone's thoughts?

<<Moved from "General Discussion" and merged with the ongoing thread>>
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 30, 2015, 12:05:48 PM
This is more about the media appetite for anything related to Earhart than about any real news. The culprit is Nat'l Geographic. they started the recent buzz about Spink with a story yesterday titled One Man's Dogged Search for Amelia Earhart (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/05/150528-amelia-earhart-spink-marshall-islands-aviation/). 

As we all know, Spink scarfed up some aluminum pieces on Mili that may be from an airplane or airplanes. As far as I know, nothing has been identified.  The Nat Geo article talks says, "At a gathering of researchers near Seattle, a piece of Amelia Earhart’s plane is reverently passed hand-to-hand around a conference table."  The article also says,
"Both Alcoa and Parker are analyzing the pieces recovered from the Marshall Islands to determine whether the metal and paint match Earhart’s plane."

Exactly how do they plan to do that?  First they need to determine the detailed composition of the metal and paint of the known piece of Earhart's plane (the rescued-from-the-trash-bin piece from the horizontal stabilizer).  That's a destructive process.  Is Pat Donovan going to let them hack a chunk out of his $25,000 artifact?  Let's say he's okay with that.  Do they now have a reference sample for comparison to the bits and pieces they collected at Mili?  Only if those bits and pieces are part of the original, unrepaired parts of the airplane.  NR16020 was built in the spring of 1936.  The repairs were done a year later.  Was there any change in the recipe for 24ST ALCLAD during that year?  That's an important question in our analysis of 2-2-V-1 and we haven't been able to find an answer. 

We know from the testing done by Lehigh Testing Labs (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/75_Findings2-2-V-1/R-48-20TIGHARReport.pdf) that the 24ST ALCLAD used to build Electras in 1935 was different from later versions of 24ST ALCLAD.  We don't have any information about the composition of Japanese aluminum.

In short, I don't see how anyone could reach a supportable conclusion about the origin of the pieces Spink retrieved at Mili regardless of the test results.

Let's back up a step and ask if there is reason to suspect that aluminum bits and pieces found at Mili atoll are any more likely to be from NR16020 than aluminum scraps you might find in your back yard. The answer, of course, is no. Aside from conflicting and unsubstantiated folklore there is zero evidence to suggest that Earhart was ever anywhere near Mili and there is abundant archival, photographic, analytical, and artifact evidence to suggest that she was somewhere else.  Spink has enthusiasm and some money but, as far as I know, no training in historical investigation.

It's disappointing that National Geographic would give any credence to Spink's claims but, like the Smithsonian, Nat Geo's reputation for scientific rigor is not always justified.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Michael HALL on May 30, 2015, 12:48:22 PM
Great reply, it will be interesting to see what they finally conclude from this, my guess Nat Geo are after some good media coverage and will pursue their findings. Lets hope Tighar get the real hard evidence next month :)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on May 30, 2015, 08:46:59 PM
I have not posted on this forum for 15 years, but Ric’s comments are worthy of a response.

I am a long time Earhart researcher, a retired senior federal agent manager who has devoted the past ten years exclusively to tracking down the Earhart mystery. I have submitted 100’s of FOIA’s and copied the entire contents of the Goerner collection at the Nimitz Museum. I have spent thousands of hours conducting research at various archives, museums, libraries, holdings, etc., and have interviewed a lot of old men now all dead. I must have amassed 10,000 documents relating to the Earhart mystery. I have received assistance from Japanese historical researchers who have assisted in translating pertinent sections of the Senshi Sosho’s 102 volumes. I have traveled extensively in the Central Pacific and South Pacific. I have journeyed numerous times to the Marshall Islands and to the Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas. I am completely familiar with all of the Earhart theories.

With that said, I am a firm believer Earhart went down in the Marshalls and met her fate on Saipan. During the course of my research I have uncovered “one” document written by a U.S. military department branch that would stand up to court scrutiny. This document indicates our military had evidence Earhart had been in the custody of the Japanese in the Marshalls. Only one document, that’s it!  However, I have found many documents that would lead one to believe Earhart landed in the Marshalls. 

There were three eyewitnesses to the Earhart landing at Mili Atoll which Ric categorizes as “folklore.” That is Ric’s kind way of saying brown skinned people can’t be believed.  There is another eyewitness: a Japanese/Marshallese medic who treated a man and a woman on the deck of a Japanese ship at Jaluit in 1937.  There are fascinating accounts of the Japanese conscripting 40 young Marshallese men from other islands to assist in pulling a twin motored plane onto a barge at Mili Atoll.  There are of course, many members of our military who saw official documents detailing the government’s knowledge and interest in tracking the captive Earhart in her journey through the Marshalls on her way to Saipan.

This past January, I was one of the seven men including Dick Spink, who scoured a small three acre island at Mili Atoll for five days under the sponsorship of Parker Aerospace. Nearby, were other small islands.  Accompanying us was a technician from a global company which conducts ground penetrating radar searches worldwide. We were also equipped with five solid metal detectors.  At low tide, we walked out on the island’s coral laced north shore reef.  We got a few solid hits but it was useless to dig. The coral is welded together like fused pieces of iron several feet deep.  I doubt a three yard bucket would make a dent in that stuff.  Back on the island, we found numerous pieces of aircraft aluminum mostly buried 12 to 18 inches deep.  The original 1937 Marshallese eyewitnesses were fishing at a nearby fish trap inside the lagoon when the plane landed on the island’s northern coral reef about 400 yards away.  The fish trap still exists.  About ten days later, the plane was dragged over rails from the north beach area to a spot where it could be loaded onto a small barge on the island’s protected south beach. The island’s original 1937 west beach had receded well within the confines of the island. All the artifacts were found along this north south corridor. 

The artifacts are currently being tested by Parker Labs and Alcoa against appropriate known samples of Japanese, Lockheed Model 10 aluminum specific to the Earhart era, and samples of American aircraft aluminum of the World War Two era. We long ago discounted the first piece found, a plate originally described as being an APU cover.  Earhart’ plane had no APU covers.  It’s certainly an aircraft plate but not necessarily an APU cover plate.  There are no serial numbers or ID tags on any of the pieces found at Mili Atoll.  We are "hoping" for the following results: the artifacts came from a U.S. aircraft built in the mid 1930's; that the aluminum is consistent or identical with the aluminum used by Lockheed for its Electra Model 10's built in 1935 and 1936.

Spectrographic analysis of the artifacts having residual paint is being completed.  However, the Earhart aircraft was partially repainted during Lockheed's reconstruction of Earhart's Electra.  I doubt the paint analysis will stand up to scientific scrutiny since it very well could have come from a different batch than the sample owned by Mr. Donavon.   What we do hope to eliminate is Japanese paint.  Time will tell.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on May 30, 2015, 10:50:54 PM
Leslie

Thanks for your post.  It is nice to hear from someone directly involved.  Just with TIGHAR expeditions, there is more to the story than meets the press, so to speak, and I'm glad to hear that you guys are at least trying to seriously pursue your hypothesis. 

The problem I have is that Spink (and apparently yourself) touted the now apparently discounted APU cover (and dust cover) as being a piece of Earhart's Electra, but your posting is the first I've heard indicating that it has been discounted (by whom?).  If it was collected 3 years ago, why did it take so long?  This was not discussed in the Nat Geo piece, so the discounting of past finds was a bit glossed over, no?

The fact that none of the artifacts collected by your group can be conclusively connected to Earhart's L-10 puts you in the same boat with many other researcher's, including TIGHAR, who consistently take criticism about the collection of useless aviation junk on Pacific islands unrelated to Earhart.  The current press on the latest finds falls short given the claims of Earhart provenance.

Furthermore, your hope to match the aluminum to Earhart's aircraft will be interesting, but how do you know it doesn't match Japanese manufactured material?

You and the Mili hypothesis are likely to be subject to significant scrutiny in this Forum and elsewhere, and it is my hope that you will put your best information forward for critical review regardless of the outcome.

Can you provide photos of the artifacts recovered, and describe for us the archaeological rigor by which their discovery was recorded?

Much appreciated.

Andrew

Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: David Alan on May 31, 2015, 01:04:42 AM
Mr. Kinney,

By stating,

There were three eyewitnesses to the Earhart landing at Mili Atoll which Ric categorizes as “folklore.” That is Ric’s kind way of saying brown skinned people can’t be believed.
clearly you think Ric's general dismissal of "folklore" is racially based.

So here is my kind way of saying you are a troll:        Sir, you are a troll.

To be clear, courtesy of the Urban Dictionary, the definition of a troll is:
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

If you wish to present the tangible research you purport to have, please do so.  I and probably most every other person on this forum without an ax to grind, will welcome it openly.  Some members of this forum may not agree with it, and if such be the case, they are just as likely to counter it with reasonable discussion and presentation.  Such is the nature of any scientific method of research:  Research, present, discuss and debate.  Such is one reason this topic, Alternatives to Niku Hypothesis, was established.

Personal attacks on individuals seem to go over very well on some other forums, and if that is the venue you wish to pursue, please go there and do not bother to post here.  I, for one, do not appreciate incivility.

Wishing you well,

d alan
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 31, 2015, 08:40:16 AM
I have not posted on this forum for 15 years, but Ric’s comments are worthy of a response.

Thank you.  Let me echo Andrew McKenna's appreciation for the opportunity to get beyond the press and discuss these issues directly.
David Alan is mistaken.  You are not a troll.  You are someone who wants to be taken seriously.  You think you are right and you want others to agree with you.  I totally get that because I am in the exact same position - so I sincerely welcome your participation in this forum.
I have a few questions, comments, and requests. 

I am a long time Earhart researcher, a retired senior federal agent manager who has devoted the past ten years exclusively to tracking down the Earhart mystery.

I presume you mention your previous career as way to establish your credentials.  Could you please tell us more?  You describe yourself as "a retired senior federal agent manager."  That's pretty vague. Were you a federal agent or a manager of federal agents?  What sort of agent(s)?  CIA? IRS? FBI?  What's your educational background?  Do you have training and/or previous experience in investigation?  I'm not just being nosy.  These questions are important.  If I told you that I've been studying brain surgery as a hobby for the past ten years I don't think you'd assume that I was competent to operate on you.

I have submitted 100’s of FOIA’s and copied the entire contents of the Goerner collection at the Nimitz Museum.

Then you are surely aware that Fred Goerner eventually discounted the possibility that Earhart was ever in the Marshalls.  I have attached an excerpt from a letter that Goerner wrote to TIGHAR member Rob Gerth on April 13, 1989.  We have a stack of correspondence from Goerner dating from the early years of the Earhart Project.  Fascinating stuff.  We really need to get it all scanned and posted to the TIGHAR website.  (Time, time, time ...)

During the course of my research I have uncovered “one” document written by a U.S. military department branch that would stand up to court scrutiny. This document indicates our military had evidence Earhart had been in the custody of the Japanese in the Marshalls. Only one document, that’s it!

By all means, produce the document!

There were three eyewitnesses to the Earhart landing at Mili Atoll which Ric categorizes as “folklore.” That is Ric’s kind way of saying brown skinned people can’t be believed.  There is another eyewitness: a Japanese/Marshallese medic who treated a man and a woman on the deck of a Japanese ship at Jaluit in 1937.  There are fascinating accounts of the Japanese conscripting 40 young Marshallese men from other islands to assist in pulling a twin motored plane onto a barge at Mili Atoll.  There are of course, many members of our military who saw official documents detailing the government’s knowledge and interest in tracking the captive Earhart in her journey through the Marshalls on her way to Saipan.

I'll forgive your accusation of racism and attribute it to ignorance rather than malice.  My comments about "folklore" (aka "oral history", "eyewitness testimony", "anecdotal recollection") have nothing to do with the skin color of the informant.  The problem with accepting stories as evidence is that you have to decide whose stories to believe.  Why is Emily Sikuli, who remembered seeing the wreckage of an airplane on the reef at Nikumaroro, less credible than Bilimon Amaron who remembered treating a man and a woman on the deck of a Japanese ship at Jaluit in 1937?  We learned that stories are not reliable evidence while searching for the White Bird in Maine in the 1980s and '90s. The white folks of Washington County regaled us with a well-established body of folklore about how the missing French transatlantic flight had come down in the Round Lake Hills - but after 20 expeditions we ultimately realized that there was nothing there but stories.  Stories may help lead you to hard evidence (documents, photographs, artifacts) as they have at Nikumaroro, but by themselves they are just stories. This is a fundamental aspect of historical investigation - one that the Japanese Capture Crowd has never grasped. Read Tom King's excellent peer-reviewed paper Amelia Earhart in the Marianas: A Consideration of the Evidence (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/AEinMarianas.html)

This past January, I was one of the seven men including Dick Spink, who scoured a small three acre island at Mili Atoll for five days under the sponsorship of Parker Aerospace. Nearby, were other small islands.  Accompanying us was a technician from a global company which conducts ground penetrating radar searches worldwide. We were also equipped with five solid metal detectors.  At low tide, we walked out on the island’s coral laced north shore reef.  We got a few solid hits but it was useless to dig.

You got hits out on the reef flat??? With what, the GPR or the metal detectors?  You think there is metal buried in the coral?  I don't see how that is possible. There is no active coral growth on reef flats. 

Back on the island, we found numerous pieces of aircraft aluminum mostly buried 12 to 18 inches deep.  The original 1937 Marshallese eyewitnesses were fishing at a nearby fish trap inside the lagoon when the plane landed on the island’s northern coral reef about 400 yards away.  The fish trap still exists.  About ten days later, the plane was dragged over rails from the north beach area to a spot where it could be loaded onto a small barge on the island’s protected south beach. The island’s original 1937 west beach had receded well within the confines of the island. All the artifacts were found along this north south corridor. 

That paragraph liberally mixes fact with speculation. You can't DO that.  You say the plane was dragged over rails.  Are the rails still there or is that just part of the story? You need to produce an accurate map showing where each piece of metal was found and you need to show how you know that the beach has receded.

The artifacts are currently being tested by Parker Labs and Alcoa against appropriate known samples of Japanese, Lockheed Model 10 aluminum specific to the Earhart era, and samples of American aircraft aluminum of the World War Two era.

How is Parker qualified to analyze aluminum alloys?  Who at Alcoa is doing the testing?  What documentation do they have that establishes the elemental breakdown of Alcoa 24ST ALCLAD throughout the 1935 to, say, 1943 period?  We would desperately like to have that information.  A word of caution:  Do NOT take the word of the Alcoa engineers who are doing the testing.  Insist on historical company documents.  We got burned on that when Alcoa in Pittsburgh did testing for us in 1996. There is "folklore" at Alcoa.

Spectrographic analysis of the artifacts having residual paint is being completed.  However, the Earhart aircraft was partially repainted during Lockheed's reconstruction of Earhart's Electra.  I doubt the paint analysis will stand up to scientific scrutiny since it very well could have come from a different batch than the sample owned by Mr. Donavon.   What we do hope to eliminate is Japanese paint.  Time will tell.

The best you can hope for there is "consistent with" unless you can prove that the paint used on NR16020 was unlike any other paint used on aircraft up through WWII.

In summary my advice is, if you want to be taken seriously produce all of your evidence and invite responsible scrutiny and debate. Secrecy is the hallmark of the amateur. Passionate assertions of your own certainty may get you some media coverage (they love that) but the only thing that really counts is substance. 

I'll continue to engage in this discussion to the extent that I can find time but with departure of the Niku VIII expedition one week away that's going to be limited.
Thanks again for sharing your information with us.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on May 31, 2015, 08:56:00 AM
An excerpt from Goerner's 1989 letter:

"It was almost as if they did not want to hear ANYTHING which might not support their conclusions ... What was amusing but not surprising was that they were calling each other names and threatening lawsuits against one another within months ..."

The more things change ...

LTM, who will go back to his morning coffee now,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on May 31, 2015, 11:52:26 AM
An excerpt from Goerner's 1989 letter:

Here's a quick OCR of the .pdf Ric posted:

Excerpt from letter Fred Goerner wrote to TIGHAR member Rob Gerth on April 13, 1989:

"I truly believed the north of course theory was the most probable at the time I wrote THE SEARCH FOR AE in 1966, and I chose Mili as the most logical landing place. Through the assistance of Dr. Dirk Ballendorf, who was Deputy Director for our U.S. Peace Corps activities in the Pacific, I was able to disabuse myself of that conjecture by 1969. Dr. Ballendorf assigned a fine young American named Eric Sussman to assist me with the people of Mili Atoll. Mr. Sussman spent nearly two years in Mili as a Peace Corps Volunteer, and he interviewed every Marshallese there who was old enough to remember anything about the pre-WWII years, especially 1937. A story existed about a woman pilot being picked up somewhere in or about the Marshalls in 1937, but Mr. Sussman satisfied himself and consequently satisfied me that Mili HAD NOT BEEN the landing place of the Earhart plane. It is more than a little surprising that Vincent Loomis, Oliver Knaggs, Buddy Brennan, Paul Bryce, Jim Slade and all the other people who visited Mili in the late 1970's and early 1980's and made such extravagant, unsupportable claims, did not even attempt to contact me before they made their "expeditions". It is almost as if they did not want to hear ANYTHING which might not support their conclusions and what they were trying to promulgate to their investors. What was amusing but not surprising was that they were calling each other names and threatening lawsuits against one another within months after their returns to The States."
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 31, 2015, 12:01:09 PM
Thanks Marty.  Incidentally, the all-caps emphasis in that letter was original. Based on the work he did with inventor Fred Hooven (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Hooven_Report/HoovenReport.html) on the bearings PanAm took on the post-loss radio signals, Goerner came to believe that Earhart had come down somewhere in the Phoenix Group - but he couldn't let go of the stories he had heard on Saipan so he theorized that the Japanese somehow and for some reason had come and kidnapped her and taken her to Saipan.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Michael HALL on May 31, 2015, 03:42:45 PM
Well least my post seemed to have brought two sides together! I did not expect that  :o
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jeff Lange on June 01, 2015, 05:27:27 AM
I will be interested in seeing if Mr. Kinney responds to some of these posts his post generated. I, too, would like to see his documentation of the finds, the "one" document, and other data.

I just hope he doesn't wait another 15 years before posting again!
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on June 01, 2015, 03:30:07 PM
I didn’t think my post would be received with such rancor.  It was meant to be a casual summation of our January Mili Atoll trip which was being discussed on this forum without a proper foundation.  But, I’ll be honest. I was annoyed with the “folklore” comment.  Labeling the three eyewitness accounts as “folklore” irked me. Describing the account as folklore carries a message their statements can be discarded as being hearsay or deprecating.  If Ric’s standards of “folklore” and “eye witness” testimony are interchangeable, I am afraid hundreds of thousands of criminal court conviction based solely on “eye witness” testimony should be immediately appealed. Using the comment, “Is this part of the story,” conveys the same message. Some synonyms for story are: tale, yarns, spiels. 

I said: “The plane was dragged over rails from the north beach area to a spot where it could be loaded onto a small barge on the island’s protected south beach.”  I should have prefaced that statement with “In my professional opinion.”  I should have known better.

Well, here is my professional opinion behind that comment. We found three small steel rail axels each about four feet long on this small island. There are identical axels to be found on Jaluit and Mili, Mili.  According to the locals, the axels can also be found on several other atolls where the Japanese had a military and commercial presence.  In their previously structured state, the axels supported carts or cradles used to haul goods over rails. Knowledgeable locals were questioned about the axels at length. They said they always were on the island as long as they could remember.  (One of the locals was 62) On a trip to the island last year, Dick Spink, diving a couple of hundred yards in front of where in our opinion, the barge had been anchored, discovered a single rail imbedded  in the seabed. He could not free it.  On this recent trip, we spent an afternoon diving for this rail with no success.   No axels were found on any nearby islands.  We did find several of the axels on Mili, Mili.  If you hold to this theory, the question you will surely ask is why were the axels not loaded back on the barge with the rails? I don’t know.  Speculating, I’d guess If 40 young men accompanied this small barge to some other location, maybe there wasn’t room.

According to NARA records and Morison’s History of U.S. Naval Operations in World War Two, Volume VII, there were 26 U.S. aircraft lost over Mili Atoll.  There were 11 Japanese aircraft reported shot down over Mili Atoll. Almost all Japanese aircraft were destroyed on the ground at Mili Mili.  None of the aircraft were reported lost anywhere near this small island. We queried the locals about the known island wrecks (they are confident they know them all). They said there were none within five miles of this island.  Still, the official reports and the locals could be in error.   

Concerning Goerner’s Marshall Island views, Goerner succumbed to the views of Eric Sussman, a Peace Corps volunteer who was assigned to Enajet Island for two years in the sixties.  Sussman corresponded with Goerner for over 20 years.  Sussman convinced Goerner, Earhart had not landed at Mili Atoll.  Sussman never traveled anywhere near Mili, Mili.  If you read Sussman’s letters, they are filled with conjecture and personal opinion.  He did not interview the three locals who witnessed the twin engine plane landing in 1937.  In fact, his letters only describe interviewing a few locals who might have been old enough to recall such an event.  Sussman naively makes no mention that most of the locals living at Enajet and at Majuro in the late sixties had relocated from other atolls after World War Two.

Considering his research was conducted during pre-internet days, Goerner work was outstanding.  But Goerner had an ego.  He wrote disparaging letters to newspapers and reporters attempting to discredit the authors you have mentioned in your links.  Regardless of what Goerner wrote to Rob Gerth in 1989, Goerner later wrote to Ric in March 1990, and to Ed Barnes from Life Magazine in October 1991, that he didn’t believe the Phoenix Island theory. Then, literally on his death bed, Goerner recants and says Earhart landed in the Phoenix Group but was taken away by the Japanese. Perhaps the cancer was too much. 

Andrew asked: “how do you know it doesn't match Japanese manufactured material?”
Answer: This should be doable.  I found in a formerly classified NARA documents, that World War Two era Japanese aircraft aluminum was substantially different than aluminum manufactured in the United States in the 1930’s and 40’s. Those documents detail how the composition was metallurgically different from U.S. aluminum.

By the way, it has been reported Hooven recanted his earlier Phoenix convictions shortly before his death and said he believe Earhart had come down at Mili Atoll.  However, there is no written attribution for this statement.

I am planning on returning to Saipan this August to look for specific evidence relating to Earhart and Noonan.  Dick Spink will be accompanying me on this trip.  Our chances of success are not good.  But it’s one of the last leads that must be done. 

I am currently writing a book on the Earhart disappearance focusing on the Government’s long standing attempt to keep the Earhart mystery just that – a mystery.  I am not going to rehash what has been previously done.  There are some fine books out there, including Ric’s. I am not interested in making money.  Earhart is ancient history for those buying books these days. I do plan on putting every document I possess on the internet for easy review.  At this time, I have no intentions of sharing documents.

I am always open to suggestions.  If Ric or anyone has the need to contact me privately, I am sure you can find my email address on the web or through the mods on this forum. I would be glad to answer your questions. Or, contact Ron Bright, although proceeding me by 10 years, and I didn’t stay long, Ron and I were both civilian agents of ONI/NIS/NCIS.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 01, 2015, 04:10:18 PM
If Ric’s standards of “folklore” and “eye witness” testimony are interchangeable, I am afraid hundreds of thousands of criminal court conviction based solely on “eye witness” testimony should be immediately appealed.

Not a bad idea.  So far The Innocence Project (http://www.innocenceproject.org) alone has used DNA to exonerate 329 innocent people who were convicted on eyewitness misidentification.  These victims of the myth of "eyewitness testimony" served an average of 14 years behind bars before being proved innocent.

At this time, I have no intentions of sharing documents.

I think that tells us what we need to know.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ted G Campbell on June 02, 2015, 09:31:40 PM
I believe Ric’s reference to “folklore” and “eye witness” should really be taken as anecdotal information and should be taken as such.

Ted Campbell
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Dan Swift on June 03, 2015, 09:37:41 AM
I am sorry!  My mind is just too simplistic I guess.  It is not physically possible (fuel) for the Electra to have gone to Mili after it was heard and known to be so close to Howland.  It would have had to have gone to Mili first.  But if it crash landed on Mili, it wouldn't have been heard on the radio at Howland.  What am I missing?  How could this even be considered?  Someone help my simply mind.  Crash and sank is the only other option.  And that only if you believe the post lost radio calls were a hoax...all of them. 
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on June 04, 2015, 06:26:32 AM
Now, now, Dan ... you know better than to try and apply logic and facts to some of the competing Earhart theories.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on June 04, 2015, 07:28:21 AM
Somehow I have a feeling that if Earhart could see all that goes on in her name today, she'd think most of us were crazy.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on June 04, 2015, 07:38:16 AM
Just so, Mr. Neville sir.

Billy Currigan said it best: "God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy."

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Dan Swift on June 04, 2015, 09:22:03 AM
Sorry Monty!  I guess I lost my...'simple mind'. 
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Michael HALL on June 26, 2015, 06:33:48 AM
this just popped up on a UK spread
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3139044/Are-bits-metal-proof-Amelia-Earhart-died-captured-Japanese-remote-Pacific-atoll-U-S-government-KNEW-covered-up.html
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on June 26, 2015, 02:20:48 PM
Well, good for them, but as TIGHAR has learned, splashy press coverage is a long way from, "We solved the mystery."

If they can show some promising metallurgical and paint residue analysis, this will start to look nominally interesting.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on June 26, 2015, 02:34:47 PM
I've decided to hold out until someone can show me a serial number on a real part found somewhere, or DNA from remains, etc.

My neck is a bit sore from following the press this far.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on June 29, 2015, 10:27:30 AM
Interesting Zero fragment - looks like orangish red oxide primer under Ami-iro grayish paint. Which I have discussed before in this thread. Here's the visual aid: http://colesaircraft.com/collections/most-popular-gallery-ron-cole-aviation-art/products/japanese-a6m3-model-32-zero-relic-display-13-x-19-olive-gray-paint-ron-cole (http://colesaircraft.com/collections/most-popular-gallery-ron-cole-aviation-art/products/japanese-a6m3-model-32-zero-relic-display-13-x-19-olive-gray-paint-ron-cole)

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP

P.S. - the same artist also has an outstanding painting of our favorite Lockheed. Not sure I agree with the pose, but, either way, it's very, very good. I may be ordering one soon.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on June 29, 2015, 11:22:23 AM
My gosh what people won't seek out and collect... who'd a thunk it???
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bob Smith on June 29, 2015, 04:04:56 PM
The above picture of Spink with the dust cover: the cover looks a little large to fit the Electra. And I don't remember seeing any pictures of the Electra with a dust cover on it! I may be wrong.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on June 29, 2015, 04:06:47 PM
The above picture of Spink with the dust cover: the cover looks a little large to fit the Electra. And I don't remember seeing any pictures of the Electra with a dust cover on it! I may be wrong.

I couldn't find any, either, when this topic first came up.

There are Lockheeds with a different gear design that do have hub caps but, as far as I can tell, all of the 10s had the double-strut like Amelia's.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on June 30, 2015, 08:33:07 AM
Until this group can come up with metallurgical and/or paint country of origin analysis on either of these parts, the parts are just that. Parts.

Which could have come from anywhere (something that TIGHAR detractors are fond of doing with anything and everything that TIGHAR finds).

Anyone who says they have solved the Earhart and Noonan mystery must clear a very high bar of public acceptance. That includes TIGHAR. This group is a long, long way from saying they've done it.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189EC
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on June 30, 2015, 09:12:34 AM
Until this group can come up with metallurgical and/or paint country of origin analysis on either of these parts, the parts are just that. Parts.

Which could have come from anywhere (something that TIGHAR detractors are fond of doing with anything and everything that TIGHAR finds).

Anyone who says they have solved the Earhart and Noonan mystery must clear a very high bar of public acceptance. That includes TIGHAR. This group is a long, long way from saying they've done it.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189EC

A brave and well put point, Monty.  I believe it is true.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bob Smith on June 30, 2015, 03:09:57 PM
I believe what MR spink has is a wheel cover from a later aircraft such as an A320, 737, 747 or the like. Maybve even a B29. The internet is full of sales articles and pictures of hub caps and wheel covers for those, and some of the inquiries from mechanics and ground crew on how to get them off are interesting.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on July 06, 2015, 02:03:14 AM
Righttttttttttt ...

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on July 06, 2015, 07:15:07 AM
I believe what MR spink has is a wheel cover from a later aircraft such as an A320, 737, 747 or the like. Maybve even a B29. The internet is full of sales articles and pictures of hub caps and wheel covers for those, and some of the inquiries from mechanics and ground crew on how to get them off are interesting.

If it's what they claim it is then they should be able to show a direct comparison to a like-article or at least parts catalogue image.  None so far, just "trust me".
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on July 12, 2015, 12:04:21 PM
Well, PARKER AEROSPACE will check it out...or they will try so...
Let's wait and see what they say...
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 16, 2015, 04:12:33 PM
These were found jammed in the beach coral on either side of the landing channel on Nikumaroro during the recent expedition.  Look familiar?  Them Electra wheel covers sure do get around.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 16, 2015, 07:14:11 PM
These were found jammed in the beach coral on either side of the landing channel on Nikumaroro during the recent expedition.  Look familiar?  Them Electra wheel covers sure do get around.

I would love to identify them, but I'm stumped.

They have to be from something quite commonplace on boats or ships.

I have the feeling that some sailors knew exactly what they are and identified them for you.

I tried Googling "aluminum fishing floats," but didn't see any likely matches.

Something associated with fishing nets?  Parts of buoys? 

Flange for a stove pipe or drain pipe?

Something from the tuna fleet?

I give up!


Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on July 16, 2015, 07:23:28 PM
Amazing;   Are they the same size as the ones Mr Spink discovered, and aluminum I presume? Wondering if they may be part of some ornamental/ritual item or/cultural exchange item between the islanders  ???
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 16, 2015, 07:40:58 PM
Appears to be small holes around the edge. My guess is they were sewn to fabric. They look smaller than a dust cover. My guess is a grommet for a sail or cover
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 16, 2015, 07:50:36 PM
Amazing;   Are they the same size as the ones Mr Spink discovered, and aluminum I presume?

I think the hole in Spinks' is bigger.  Ours are still en route from Fiji.  When they get here I'll put up a photo with a scale.  They do seem to be aluminum.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 16, 2015, 07:53:01 PM
My guess is a grommet for a sail or cover

They're not at all rugged.  Thin. Lightweight.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bob Smith on July 16, 2015, 08:39:27 PM
a couple examples of stovepipe flashing as suggested in Marty's list:
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 16, 2015, 08:52:13 PM
Maybe Lantern parts to mark the landing channel.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on July 16, 2015, 09:42:31 PM
The center hole on all items ( including the one found by Mr Spinks) seem to show signs of damage caused by rotation, causing piling of metal working outward of the center, reducing the original design thickness at that point. The outer edges all appear rolled, to strengthen and help maintain shape.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on July 16, 2015, 10:08:00 PM
Maybe Lantern parts to mark the landing channel.

I am starting to like that idea....maybe the metal that appears worked outward from the center, is remnants of solder or tinning a top on a latern, and what we are seeing is part of a lamp shade...see attachment.

Knock the top off , ( and bottom) and we may see an object like the cover ( lamp shade).

http://www.thepirateslair.com/nautical-naval-antiques-navigation-lights-lanterns.html
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 16, 2015, 11:16:15 PM
I was thinking more of the reflector part or a housing for it.
There does not seem to be screw holes to attach it to something.  The tiny holes I thought I saw are probably just pitting that went through very thin metal. The center hole could be for the bulb. The outer rim held between glass and a ring. Similar to a flashlight. Those parts are internal and can be lightweight.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on July 17, 2015, 06:09:53 AM
I see what you mean,(Like the one in the attachment).....I was thinking more on the line of older units , light source provided by means of oil, rather than electrical. The center hole utilized as an outlet to the chimney.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Steve Oster on July 17, 2015, 12:30:45 PM
My money is on reflectors from kerosene lanterns used for night fishing. 

If similar artifacts have been discovered over a wide geographic area (i.e., Niku and Mili), and assuming they were used for the same purpose (not proven), then it seems reasonable that they must be associated with an activity that is occurring throughout the same geographic area.  Fishing fits the bill.  I Googled "night fishing kerosene lanterns" and quickly discovered the following images.

The pictures below are of night fishing in Africa, but another quick Google search turns up references to the same practice (night fishing w/kerosene lanterns) in Pacific region as well.

http://offgridlighting.org/Offgrid_Lighting/Projects/Pages/night-fishing-east-africa.html#6 (http://offgridlighting.org/Offgrid_Lighting/Projects/Pages/night-fishing-east-africa.html#6)

Reflector in this image appears "homemade".  Here's another picture of a lantern and reflector in use:

http://offgridlighting.org/Offgrid_Lighting/Projects/Pages/night-fishing-east-africa.html#22 (http://offgridlighting.org/Offgrid_Lighting/Projects/Pages/night-fishing-east-africa.html#22)

Some images on the internet depict use of pressurized kerosene lanterns, others show traditional wick lanterns. 
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bob Smith on July 17, 2015, 02:33:18 PM
That sure makes sense to me, Steve.  Could you say maybe these reflectors were made from or repurposed from other items, like, say airplane wheel covers, or dust covers???
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 17, 2015, 03:53:27 PM
That sure makes sense to me, Steve.  Could you say maybe these reflectors were made from or repurposed from other items, like, say airplane wheel covers, or dust covers???

I can tell you that they do not have the "look" of an aviation-related structure.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bob Smith on July 17, 2015, 05:16:33 PM
It appears the lantern reflectors seen in the sales ads with the lanterns attached mostly have a more domed shape, and the reflectors shown in the fishing pictures appear to be after-thoughts, or revised articles flattened just for the useage as shown. Make great frizbees! but  the fishing lanterns seem to be specially designed for that purpose and the reflectors made from something else that wasn't originally flat.(especially the ones with the metal buckets!)   
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Steve Oster on July 18, 2015, 09:19:23 AM
I find plenty of examples of relatively flat lantern reflectors (whether old or new).  Check out the two in use in this photo:

http://ecofinderkenya.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/100_3174.jpg (http://ecofinderkenya.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/100_3174.jpg)

Here's an example commercially available today:

http://www.stpaulmercantile.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=75&products_id=274 (http://www.stpaulmercantile.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=75&products_id=274)

Association with a lantern may also explain the dark discoloration visible on the artifact in image labelled "Reverse" in Ric's post #157.  Looks to me like the object has been in contact with flame or soot, but that's more than can be confirmed in a photo.

Ultimately, the artifact may have nothing to do with kerosene lanterns.  But I suggest the possibility because some lantern reflectors exhibit the right form factor and they are reportedly used in the environments we're evaluating (SW Pacific).
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bob Smith on July 18, 2015, 11:21:10 AM
I agree with your basic idea that the round discs everybody seems to be finding, including Ric's example from the landing channel at Niku, could be reflectors from lanterns or lamps used possibly for landing lights or fishing. My point is that if the supposed reflectors have been flattened  for that specific use (to spread the light out for larger coverage or whatever reason), then they could possibly be made out of something that was not originally a part of the lantern including something that was not originally flat.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: James Champion on July 18, 2015, 07:39:38 PM
These dust covers look more like a rat shield or rat guard for a ships rope.  I really don't think it would be odd to find them where a ship might tie-up or anchor.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 18, 2015, 08:17:40 PM
These dust covers look more like a rat shield or rat guard for a ships rope.  I really don't think it would be odd to find them where a ship might tie-up or anchor.

Google images suggests that rat guards have a section that can be opened to put the guard over the rope (https://www.google.com/search?q=aluminum+rat+guard+ship%27s+rope&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CDUQ7AlqFQoTCMyFnuaP5sYCFY2ygAodN_cLcw&biw=984&bih=509), then closed to keep the rats away.  That makes more sense to me than having to feed the rope through the hole.

But it is a great guess!
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bob Smith on July 18, 2015, 08:21:27 PM
Now  that you mention it, James, I think I remember seeing an article that the original rat guards were made from discarded wheel covers, or was it the other way around?? LOL
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on July 19, 2015, 10:07:29 PM
This thread is getting silly at a high rate of speed.

Or so it seems to me.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bob Smith on July 20, 2015, 07:07:59 AM
True, Monty, there is some sillyness in this and other threads. But perhaps some of it can be helpful. What has been found in the so-called lantern or rat shields (or wheel covers) brings some interesting ideas, whether positive or negative to the Niku hypothesis.
1- native people to the islands are fishermen and fisherwomen, and are ingenious in improvising their methods.
2- what else could they have left that may or may not have anything to do with Amelia and her electra?
3- what have tighar expeditions found that may or may not be a part of the hypothesis?
4- the latest finds of Ric's discs in the landing channel may indicate there could be a lot more people interested in the island and landing there than we thought.
5- The discs of Ric and Spink are probably not related to aircraft, but are related to each other.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 20, 2015, 09:59:51 AM
5- The discs of Ric and Spink are probably not related to aircraft, but are related to each other.

I think this is really the only useful conclusion that can be drawn.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on August 18, 2015, 08:34:55 PM
Amazing;   Are they the same size as the ones Mr Spink discovered, and aluminum I presume?

I think the hole in Spinks' is bigger.  Ours are still en route from Fiji.  When they get here I'll put up a photo with a scale.  They do seem to be aluminum.

Have the disc shaped artifacts arrived from Fiji?
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on August 21, 2015, 08:27:42 AM
Have the disc shaped artifacts arrived from Fiji?

Yes.  We have labeled them 2-10-V-1 and 2-10-V-2.  Photos with scale below.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bruce Thomas on August 21, 2015, 04:11:10 PM
They remind me of drip pan inserts (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Whirlpool-Gas-Stove-Range-Cooktop-7-1-2-Burner-Chrome-Drip-Pan-4330786-310385-/190680891125) for the burners of a gas stove, re-purposed as perhaps reflectors for fishermen to use at night with lanterns.

Notice how the drip pans are listed as being 7-1/2 inches in diameter!  :D
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Bob Smith on August 21, 2015, 04:30:34 PM
Or rat shields for mooring ropes!
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on August 26, 2015, 05:35:42 PM
A bit of research about gas lanterns and their reflectors, seem to indicate that many are brass in construction, however; I have found a few lesser quality models , or knockoffs, that have aluminum reflectors. Below is one example of a hand held lantern,..note the reflector....Greg's suggestion that what Mr Spink found and what the last Niku trip discovered, that being, they may be reflectors of some type, seems a good suggestion. As for the holes in the outer edges of the Spink artifact , ....it is my thought that possibly some sort of shield may have been attached, possibly due to the hazards involved in handling such an instrument. It is easy to see how this reflector could become detached from the parent object, and leaving none of that to find, if it came from one similar to the one below. There seems to be some flexibility in and around the inner hole, to allow cycling, to create some of the creases and damage noted on all three artifacts, as well as signs of solder or brazing work to hold the object to another piece. 
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on August 26, 2015, 06:31:50 PM
Aluminum version below;

One fellows observation on the use of aluminum;
There are scores of other much less common names available.  Pictured on the left is an example of a fairly hard to find carbide that is made of aluminum called the Lumi-Lamp.  These aluminum lamps, unless unfired or unused, are usually in rough condition because of the tendency to corrode from the effects of the carbide gas, moisture, and the corrosive nature of the mixture and the gas that they produced when the water was added to the carbide to generate the acetylene gas that was then lit to produce the light.  The basic idea was right, looking for a material that was strong, light,  and would not rust, but I suppose they did not count on the nature of the gas that was going to be created, and obviously the choice of material was not studied enough.

Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Greg Daspit on December 16, 2015, 02:41:28 PM
Is the dust cover molded over the hub in the way it appears in these photos?

I'm no A&P, and I don't play one in my dreams, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I think it's possible that what you are calling a "dust cover" is actually the brake drum on the inside of the wheel. 

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-iMRABDZiUCQ/VIHhp47xzbI/AAAAAAAAAv8/rywZuK0w-hY/w1105-h829-no/auck05%2B020.jpg)
What are the dimensions for the diameter and thickness of the brake drum(edit: or brake disk housing) on AE's plane?
It's for a 3D cad model
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 16, 2015, 05:28:21 PM
What are the dimensions for the diameter and thickness of the brake drum(edit: or brake disk housing) on AE's plane?


I'm afraid that I don't know.


I took the picture just before or perhaps even during the Wheel of Fortune expedition. (http://tighar.org/wiki/Niku_VP_(WOF--2003))


I was just trying to get a picture of the hub.  The thought of holding up a scale and photographing from a good
angle never crossed my mind.


The Harney Drawings (http://tighar.org/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51&search=harney) are available on disk from the TIGHAR store.

Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 16, 2015, 06:12:08 PM
I have the engineering drawings for the Model 10.  I'll see what I can find.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 17, 2015, 08:02:27 AM
Nothing in the engineering drawing, probably because the brakes were not a Lockheed part.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on December 17, 2015, 10:55:14 AM
How about depictions in the Goodyear Airwheel manual (Lockheed publication EE1135)?  It appears TIGHAR had access to that publication by a couple of pictures appearing in the 'Wheel of Fortune' (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/41_WheelofFortune/41_Wheel.html) bulletin, courtesy of "Chesapeake Airways, Inc.".  Might "Chesapeake" help with a look at that manual again?
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on December 17, 2015, 11:15:14 AM
How about depictions in the Goodyear Airwheel manual (Lockheed publication EE1135)?  It appears TIGHAR had access to that publication by a couple of pictures appearing in the 'Wheel of Fortune' (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/41_WheelofFortune/41_Wheel.html) bulletin, courtesy of "Chesapeake Airways, Inc.".  Might "Chesapeake" help with a look at that manual again?


In this post (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1602.msg35440.html#msg35440), the photo says that some part of the hub is 6".


I'm not sure which part of the hub has that dimension.


(http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/41_WheelofFortune/catalog.jpg)
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: JNev on December 17, 2015, 11:26:19 AM
Thanks, Marty.

I'm at a loss too other than to guess that typically a cardinal dimension for a wheel like that would be the diameter of where the tire bead seats (smallest diameter of the 'spool', as it were)...

My thought was that if Chesapeake is still around and willing we might coax additional information out of that manual.  The depiction we have so far doesn't include the brake stack and pressure plate itself ('stator' assembly), only the rolling stock.  We certainly don't see anything resembling the 'dust cover' (nor do I recall seeing one on the L10's I have seen personally, for what that's worth (pretty weak)).
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on December 17, 2015, 12:55:45 PM
Chesapeake Airways, Inc. is basically an aviation junkyard in Salisbury, MD.  We were there in 2002 looking at wheels. They had a Goodyear Airwheel manual.  I took a photo of the only page that seemed useful.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on February 08, 2016, 09:37:22 AM
I haven't seen anything new from this group in more than a year, other than, "We think we're right." As TIGHAR has learned, that's not enough when dealing with this mystery.

If they're doing testing or analysis or something on these bits they found, I wish they'd tell people. Maybe then we can all go home.  ;D

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on February 08, 2016, 06:38:40 PM
There have been issue verifications with the artifacts found on Mili Atoll. Not that they did or did not originate from Earhart's Lockheed 10, rather like TIGHAR, proving aircraft aluminum actually came from her plane is a different story. What is currently being undertaken is an attempt to prove consistency with specific aluminum that came from a known Lockheed 10 and no other type aircraft.  As you are all aware, that will not be good enough to satisfy doubters.

With that said, there is factual visual evidence that has been found which places Earhart and her plane in the Marshall Islands. It will hopefully be released within the next few months along with newly discovered documentary evidence supporting the Marshall Island capture of Earhart by the Japanese.

There is a lot more to this  "story" as Ric would say, but unless the Japanese cooperate, the final chapter will never be accepted.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Andrew M McKenna on February 08, 2016, 09:48:20 PM
I find it very interesting that the "dust cover" found near Mili is significantly similar to two artifacts found on Nikumaroro this past summer, such that I suspect the objects from both islands are similar in function, and probably something from the fishing industry.  Compare the photos of what was found on Nikumaroro with the "dust cover".  Can you tell which one is which?  They all are about 8" in diameter, with a 2.5" approx center hole, and have the same crease around the center hole, and little holes around the outside edge.

Looks to me like we have three "dust covers" for an aircraft with two main landing gears, found on two different islands 1200 miles apart.  Or perhaps we have something that is more common in the Pacific than Electra dust covers.  Judge for yourself.

Not to mention that no dust covers are visible on Earhart's Electra.  That is something that I pointed out to the Mili Atoll folks long ago that has never been satisfactorily addressed.  And if it is a dust cover, how did it get separated from the rest of the wheel without damaging the center hole?  Doesn't seem likely that the wheel would take itself apart to release the non existent dust cover, but I suppose it could happen under some strange circumstances. 

I personally can't see that the "dust cover" is actually a Lockheed dust cover.

We can look forward to seeing the "factual visible evidence" but I'm not quite sure what that exactly means.  Are we talking eyewitness accounts?  Photographs?  What?

Sorry if I sound skeptical, but I am.

Andrew
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Hal Banks on February 09, 2016, 10:48:30 AM
Could these be some sort of rat shield or guard for lines on a ship?
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on February 09, 2016, 10:55:56 AM
Could these be some sort of rat shield or guard for lines on a ship?

We've wondered the same thing but they seem awfully light for that purpose.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on February 09, 2016, 11:01:54 AM
The shipboard rats I am aware of would laugh at calling something like that a "rat guard."

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on February 09, 2016, 11:35:27 AM
Whatever they are I think it's safe to say that they're in current and fairly widespread use. The two we found at Niku were jammed in shoreward side of the beachfront coral on either side of the landing channel, as they had washed in with a big wave and got stuck when the wave receded. It's an area where, by necessity, we spend a lot of time every time we visit the island. The discs must be relatively recent arrivals.
When you think about it there are some interesting similarities to 2-2-V-1.  Lightweight metal gets washed ashore through the landing channel in a big storm.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on February 09, 2016, 03:04:28 PM
Another guess;.....Ends from an aluminum spool ( older versions than shown) for lightweight rope,hose, or wire, ...minus the tubular center piece?

http://www.sivallighting.com/images/products/detail/steelcablespool300_wm.jpg
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on February 09, 2016, 04:47:56 PM
I find it very interesting that the "dust cover" found near Mili is significantly similar to two artifacts found on Nikumaroro this past summer, such that I suspect the objects from both islands are similar in function, and probably something from the fishing industry.  Compare the photos of what was found on Nikumaroro with the "dust cover".  Can you tell which one is which?  They all are about 8" in diameter, with a 2.5" approx center hole, and have the same crease around the center hole, and little holes around the outside edge.

The artifact found on a small island northwest of Mili Island resembling a dust cover is approximately seven inches in diameter. The "hole fits perfectly (snug) over the landing gear axel of a Lockheed 10.  The artifact has paint residue containing reflective beads on one side. The other side of the artifact has evidence of glue residue and microscopic remnants of a gasket type material. The artifact shows evidence of trauma.( See the picture) At this time, no claims or representations are being made that the artifact originated from Earhart's Lockheed 10.

Not to mention that no dust covers are visible on Earhart's Electra.  That is something that I pointed out to the Mili Atoll folks long ago that has never been satisfactorily addressed.  And if it is a dust cover, how did it get separated from the rest of the wheel without damaging the center hole?  Doesn't seem likely that the wheel would take itself apart to release the non existent dust cover, but I suppose it could happen under some strange circumstances. .

If the artifact did come off Earhart's plane, the landing gear would have had to break loose causing one side of the Goodyear Air wheel to eventually break free leaving the axel exposed. As mentioned in a much earlier post, the theory is the plane was moved from the north side of the island to the lagoon side of the island in some sort of cradle over rails. There were old Japanese rail axels found on this three acre island. There was one iron rail found in the water approximately 100 feet from the beach. It is surmised that at some point along this route over land, the artifact described as a dust cover broke free.

There is one other artifact to be excited about. A piece of curved aluminum striping that fits perfectly around the interior wheel carriage of a Lockheed 10.
 


We can look forward to seeing the "factual visible evidence" but I'm not quite sure what that exactly means.  Are we talking eyewitness accounts?  Photographs?  What?

Yes photographic. There is also some documentary evidence that indicate Earhart was at some point in time in the Marshall Islands.

Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on February 09, 2016, 07:06:29 PM
The artifact has paint residue containing reflective beads on one side.

OK, that doesn't sound like 1930s technology, maybe not even 1960s technology. Correct me if I'm wrong.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on February 09, 2016, 11:47:37 PM
There is one other artifact to be excited about. A piece of curved aluminum striping that fits perfectly around the interior wheel carriage of a Lockheed 10.
 

Would you have any images of that item to share?

The artifact found on a small island northwest of Mili Island resembling a dust cover is approximately seven inches in diameter. The "hole fits perfectly (snug) over the landing gear axel of a Lockheed 10.  The artifact has paint residue containing reflective beads on one side. The other side of the artifact has evidence of glue residue and microscopic remnants of a gasket type material. The artifact shows evidence of trauma.( See the picture) At this time, no claims or representations are being made that the artifact originated from Earhart's Lockheed 10.


Could these trace elements be from the possible repurposing of the item by someone? Used for some sort of artwork?
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on February 11, 2016, 12:21:08 AM
Attachment shows a Kaiser industrial spool....heavier version,...may explain the circular pattern near the center hole, due to crimping pieces together during manufacture. It was my initial thought that if these are spool end pieces, that the four holes near the rim, may be holes for wire stays, to support the shape during transport. Below is a version of wire winder that has four brackets installed, that may also give clues as to why four holes would be near the rim.(  But this may be a homemade item).
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on February 11, 2016, 01:02:24 AM
Ok, Don't make fun of my tracing, I can't draw a straight,or curved line, nothing but squiggly with the paint pencil tool,...you get what you see. I know it's bad,but what I was trying to do, is trace around what looks to me like a silver band on the obverse sides of both artifacts. Maybe this isn't paint per say, but a protected area of the metal, wherby the elements didn't fade or damage the original surface appearance as much, as it did near the rim.  The band to me looks uniform, as if, that was the height of whatever material was there to protect the artifact surface...the remainder of the area, near the rim looks much worse for the wear....does that tell us anything?
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on February 11, 2016, 12:35:38 PM
Les,.....Is this the strip of metal to which you were referring? Would you have some more images of that piece?
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on February 11, 2016, 05:17:30 PM
A ruler for scale would also be very helpful.

I'm puzzled by a couple of things: 1) The mention of reflective beading on the back of the putative dust cover. I find that very, very odd for something supposedly from the 1930s, and 2) The photo is too small to enlarge clearly, but there appears to be square "dimpling" on the intact oval-shaped piece, as well as the two partial oval-shaped pieces. I find that very, very odd for something that is supposed to be a cover or inspection plate on an aircraft.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on February 11, 2016, 05:52:28 PM
I'm sorry Monty, I should have included the link where I found the photo and description; http://earhartonsaipan.blogspot.com/

Note that all the artifacts on the table have pretty much been dismissed as parts of the Electra, with the exception of the piece Les mentioned... the one I have the red arrows pointing to.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on February 11, 2016, 06:10:05 PM
Les,.....Is this the strip of metal to which you were referring? Would you have some more images of that piece?
This is a pic of the aluminum trim piece.  It is being held up against the undercarriage trim of a Lockheed 12. We did measure the trim on the Lockheed 10's at Phoenix and Windsor Locks. They have  the same dimensions as the Lockheed 12 trim shown in the photograph.   
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on February 11, 2016, 06:26:42 PM
A ruler for scale would also be very helpful.

I'm puzzled by a couple of things: 1) The mention of reflective beading on the back of the putative dust cover. I find that very, very odd for something supposedly from the 1930s, and 2) The photo is too small to enlarge clearly, but there appears to be square "dimpling" on the intact oval-shaped piece, as well as the two partial oval-shaped pieces. I find that very, very odd for something that is supposed to be a cover or inspection plate on an aircraft.

If you do a deep Google or Bing search, the reflective bead paint was available in the 1930's. Whether Lockheed or whoever manufactured the alleged dustcover used reflective microscopic barium beads in their paint, I don't know. Our effort to obtain an answer from Lockheed was unsuccessful.

I did find one other item that was not analyzed. A magnet buried about a foot deep along the same trail as where the rest of the artifacts were found. The magnet is cylinder shaped about 1 and 1/4 inches long by 3/4 inches in diameter.   It still had some of its magnetic properties.

Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on February 11, 2016, 10:07:23 PM
If you do a deep Google or Bing search, the reflective bead paint was available in the 1930's. Whether Lockheed or whoever manufactured the alleged dustcover used reflective microscopic barium beads in their paint, I don't know. Our effort to obtain an answer from Lockheed was unsuccessful.

Links to what you find is always very helpful to the rest of us.

I'm familiar with the problem of not being able to get definitive answers from Lockheed regarding what it may or may not have done with regards to aircraft construction 70 years ago. The larger questions are, What possible reason could there have been for putting reflective beads in paint for that part of the aircraft, and how common was that construction technique regarding the alleged trim in the 1930s?

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on February 11, 2016, 11:13:16 PM
Thank you for that image Les,....In the attachment, I rotated it a bit ,so as to try to get my bearings on it's position. I drew a red arrow to a point of interest to me, ..is that a rust spot , a rivet hole , other??
Monty, I deal with a lot of vintage autos and motorcycles from the 30's and many of them have rolled edges on the fenders/hoods, etc,... that type of fabrication was pretty common in that era to strengthen parts, at least regarding those vehicles anyway.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on February 12, 2016, 12:04:38 AM
Les,.....Is this the strip of metal to which you were referring? Would you have some more images of that piece?
This is a pic of the aluminum trim piece.  It is being held up against the undercarriage trim of a Lockheed 12. We did measure the trim on the Lockheed 10's at Phoenix and Windsor Locks. They have  the same dimensions as the Lockheed 12 trim shown in the photograph.   
By dimensions, is that the guage of the bead edge and thickness of the flat material, compared to the Lockheed 10 and 12? It looks as if the entire length of the piece was tin snipped away from the parent object, this to give the salvager a flat stock to work with?, or?? Odd.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Jerry Germann on February 12, 2016, 12:33:36 AM
In this Purdue Photo http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/341/rec/34( courtesy credited to them) ..it appears to me that one edge is rolled ( green arrow) and the edge on the fender ( red arrow) is round trim riveted on to flat stock...two differing methods ( if my eyes are seeing right). If the piece you have is without rivet holes, I see the need to search for non riveted rolled edges, to try to find a matching area for your artifact. Looking at the item you have, I don't know that it could be called trim, rather it looks to be the rolled edge removed from a larger panel.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on February 12, 2016, 04:37:36 AM
Monty, I deal with a lot of vintage autos and motorcycles from the 30's and many of them have rolled edges on the fenders/hoods, etc,... that type of fabrication was pretty common in that era to strengthen parts, at least regarding those vehicles anyway.

That's my point, Jerry - rolling the edge of a sheetmetal surface to give it a finished edge, or additional strength, was quite common in the 1930s, and is today, which to me makes the piece of metal in question more common and less unique than some might hope.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on February 12, 2016, 01:12:24 PM
Les,.....Is this the strip of metal to which you were referring? Would you have some more images of that piece?
This is a pic of the aluminum trim piece.  It is being held up against the undercarriage trim of a Lockheed 12. We did measure the trim on the Lockheed 10's at Phoenix and Windsor Locks. They have  the same dimensions as the Lockheed 12 trim shown in the photograph.   
By dimensions, is that the guage of the bead edge and thickness of the flat material, compared to the Lockheed 10 and 12? It looks as if the entire length of the piece was tin snipped away from the parent object, this to give the salvager a flat stock to work with?, or?? Odd.

No tin. The analysis came back as 1100 series aluminum (almost pure). By dimensions, we mean the diameter of the somewhat rounded trim.  It was measured using a micrometer against the three Lockheed aircraft previously mentioned. As you probably know, this type aluminum is malleable and therefore easily worked.

That hole you are referring to does not appear to be is not a rivet hole - its been checked and double checked. This artifact shows evidence of extreme stress.  it was found about 16 inches below the surface. It might have been dragged along the ground until it ripped off the aircraft. Unfortunately, it was probably punctured by the hand pick during retrieval. The soil in that area is a mixture of dirt made up of sand, decomposed vegetable matter, (mainly decayed roots and leaves) but primarily crushed coral. 

We realize there will be doubters and rightly so. It's impossible to confirm this artifact came off of Earhart's Electra. In a court of law, even if Nuclear Activation Analysis was used to compare the trim piece with a known Lockheed 10 sample (which we are doing) and the results came back with almost identical properties, that's not good enough for a conviction. The best we can expect is consistency with like material tested from a Lockheed 10. But I would be quite satisfied with those results.
 
Your critical analysis and comments are appreciated.     
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on February 12, 2016, 01:15:20 PM
In this Purdue Photo http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/341/rec/34( courtesy credited to them) ..it appears to me that one edge is rolled ( green arrow) and the edge on the fender ( red arrow) is round trim riveted on to flat stock...two differing methods ( if my eyes are seeing right). If the piece you have is without rivet holes, I see the need to search for non riveted rolled edges, to try to find a matching area for your artifact. Looking at the item you have, I don't know that it could be called trim, rather it looks to be the rolled edge removed from a larger panel.

The area of the aircraft from which the picture was taken is closer to the green line you drew.  It did not come from the fender.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Leslie G Kinney on February 12, 2016, 02:43:23 PM
Monty, I deal with a lot of vintage autos and motorcycles from the 30's and many of them have rolled edges on the fenders/hoods, etc,... that type of fabrication was pretty common in that era to strengthen parts, at least regarding those vehicles anyway.
That's my point, Jerry - rolling the edge of a sheetmetal surface to give it a finished edge, or additional strength, was quite common in the 1930s, and is today, which to me makes the piece of metal in question more common and less unique than some might hope.

Your point is well taken. This rolled edge was most common in the manufacturing process in the 1930's.  We have seen evidence of it in the 40 thru the 50's but not as much. With that said, we have not found an identical trim piece with the same rolled measurements that fit this location for any other aircraft as yet. If you know of any, I would like to be notified. 



Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on February 12, 2016, 04:58:24 PM
The Nuclear Activation Analysis sounds promising, within the limits of that technology.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on February 15, 2016, 10:31:01 AM
The best we can expect is consistency with like material tested from a Lockheed 10. But I would be quite satisfied with those results.

You might be satisfied. All well and good. But as TIGHAR has learned in the court of world opinion, that counts for very, very little. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, as the saying goes.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Monty Fowler on March 04, 2016, 02:18:15 PM
Interesting comment from Mike Campbell's website, dated Feb. 9, 2016, in reply to a comment someone posted in his Irene Bolam and the Decline of the Amelia Earhart Society: Conclusion posting - "The artifacts have been tested, but because they have no serial numbers, absolute connection to the Electra cannot be proven. So Dick Spink has chosen not to make any more noise about it, nor will I until something more substantial breaks. This doesn’t mean they weren’t from the Earhart bird, and I would bet they are. But you haven’t heard the last from him."

Sounds like Mr. Spink is in the same boat at TIGHAR regarding various bits of aluminum. Technology can only take you so far in the search for the truth.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on March 04, 2016, 02:25:41 PM
Sounds like Mr. Spink is in the same boat at TIGHAR regarding various bits of aluminum.

Perhaps with regard to bits of aluminum but in terms of total evidence TIGHAR's boat is a battleship.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on February 14, 2017, 07:12:13 AM
I have a request from a guy who wants to do a series of podcasts about the Earhart mystery.  He wants to do interviews with proponents of all of the various theories.  I'm happy to talk to him.  He's having trouble finding contact information for Dick Spink (of dust cover fame) and has asked me for help. Anybody got an email address or phone number for Spink?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Tom Creemers on February 14, 2017, 07:28:08 AM
This is the guy I think:

http://www.aluminumboatkit.com/contact (http://www.aluminumboatkit.com/contact)


Tom.
Title: Re: Dust cover and cover plate (Richard Spink, Mili Atoll)
Post by: Ric Gillespie on February 14, 2017, 08:01:24 AM
Yep.  That's the guy.  Good work Tom.