TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on November 10, 2014, 07:45:28 PM
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Can anyone identify the purpose of the striped framework on the ground?
Loading ramp of some kind?
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looks to me like a barrier placed on the ramp to keep aircraft from taxiing over a particular spot. In this case there seems to be some kind of door open at the right side, so I'm guessing it is some sort of fuel pit.
amck
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Quote from: BMangus on November 11, 2014, 10:56:03 AM
"I'm wondering if this isn't the final fueling before departure the next morning, right after the a/c came out of the hanger with a bright, shiny new patch."
Ric said:
"There was a test flight on Sunday, May 30. This could be fueling for the test flight or fueling for the flight to Puerto Rico. In any case, it now seems that the patch was installed sometime late Saturday the 29th or early Sunday the 30th."
Makes sense they would do a test flight after installing the patch, just to see how it behaved in flight. No way of knowing, of course, but I wonder if the vertical stiffener we see the impression of on 2-2-V-1 was added as a result of something seen in the test flight. Perhaps that's why there is no vertical line of rivet holes. No way to know. . . .
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Sorry, been off for a couple of days. Regarding the question (post #936) about the striped ground barriers, they seem to be directly in front of the old (original) hangar at Miami Municipal (smaller airport in picture). See bottom right of photo. Still there in '45.
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Cool catch, Dan. I love this stuff out of general interest.
Maybe we should break out another string for historic details found along the way of studying the Electra's presence and activities in Miami? Just wondering if easier to track this or that item of interest if we do some break-outs here, like just done for the 'critic's corner'?
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Once we have access to all of the new photos, I suspect that there will be additional details visible that will help tease out when and where they were taken. I'm surprised some of our more ardent TECTIC detractors haven't jumped on this new photo as "an obvious forgery."
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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Let us seek to rise above the gnashing of teeth, which will always be with us, I'm sure.
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I wonder if Bo McKneely, upon completing the patch in Miami, perhaps stood back and took a snapshot of his handiwork. An exciting yet frustrating thought, that such a hypothetical picture might exist in a forgotten desk drawer someplace.
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I wonder if Bo McKneely, upon completing the patch in Miami, perhaps stood back and took a snapshot of his handiwork.
He would have to have a camera - unless he just used his iPhone.
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A dream shot if ever there was one, what we need...
Can we find out who his celluar carrier was? ::)
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I wonder if Bo McKneely, upon completing the patch in Miami, perhaps stood back and took a snapshot of his handiwork.
Dumb question (?) Apparently he died in 1998 (!) leaving several descendants. Would it be worth finding them to ask if he had a few souvenir photos?
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Further to the point I raised in the other thread about trying to trace other aircraft repaired and/or serviced at that same facility or at least some underlying documentation, I realise that I have no real idea of the infrastructure that was in place in Miami at the time that the Electra was there. I see the name of the mechanic mentioned above, and I seem to recall the occasional reference to PanAm, but I can't find any clear description of what was actually there, which organisation ran the hangars and workshops were the work was undertaken.
Do we have this information listed somewhere?
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By 1937 Pan AM and Eastern had moved their operations to Pan Am Field (36th Street airport). National Airlines was just moving in and, interestingly enough, converting to Electras. I found it interesting that Pitcairn Aviation apparently had a precursor to FBO there and was wondering if AE's connection to them earlier with the Autogyros may have contributed to a relationship in regards to the work done on the Electra there. I believe Curtiss had already started the transfer of Miami Municipal facilities as eventually the Curtiss Hangar is shown as Miami Municipal Hangar 1 and the Curtiss sign is gone. Other than National I think the field was only used for private purposes at that point. They hosted annual air races during that timeframe as well. All this info can be found by google Miami Municipal Florida. There is a website with pictures going back to the founding of the field by Curtiss early 1900s.
There is an Aviation School (HS and adult classes) located just off the end of 9L at MIA that I believe occupies an old Pan Am facility. I know the school has been in existence since the 30's in Miami from having visited 20 years ago to speak to students when I was stationed at Homestead flying F-16s. They may be interested in a investigation project for their students. I don't recall the name of the school but will try to look it up. They may have records going back that far.
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Found the school on Google maps. It is the George T. Baker Aviation School. Their website says they were founded in 1939 at Miami High School. The school moved to its present facility in 1958 when George Baker donated it to the school. George Baker was president of National Airlines. Their website is Bakeraviation.edu.
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The more I dig into this the more I think it might actually be a good path of research. Unfortunately a trip to Miami does not fit into my retirement pay budget. But there are some interesting connections and questions that arise:
1. Why did AE chose Miami Municipal over the Pan AM (36th street) airport? With Pan AM (1932) and Eastern (1935) relocating there it was the focus of aviation in Miami at that time and Muni was declining. Was it because of the Pitcairn operation there? Did it have anything to do with National establishing operations there while transitioning at the same time to Electras? What was the relationship between National, Pitcairn, and the city of Miami Port Authority at that time? My expectation would be that National would need some advance support to set up and it appears they were operating there well before the official establishment of operations in Jul 1937. Who supported them?
2. Why I think this may be a good lead has to do with who supported Bo doing the patch work and any other work during the layover? Certainly he did not do it all alone. While it would not have been newsworthy to the news papers, a mechanic who worked on AE's airplane would have been something of a local celebrity in the A&P community after she disappeared. Given the comings and goings, forming and changing, commercial aviation business at the time, I assume they knew each other fairly well and worked for different companies over this timeframe. Who better to consult, or maybe even hire, for a school formed two years after her disappearance? Who, and what, would he have told about his experience working on the famous aircraft? Who might have written it down? If they did, where would such a record be located?
A long shot I know but thought I would pass it on. And before Monty jumps in on me with his boots-on-the-ground money speech, as I said, it doesn't fit into my retirement pay budget. If it did, before I would contribute for someone else to go, I would go myself. There are contacts for the school on their website who I may contact, but I am hesitant to go far with that if I am unable to follow up in person.
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Good line of thought, John - and limitations are realized, most of us face something like that. I'd like to say that's in my part of the country - but it's as far for me as Washington D.C. would be, so not an easy weekend jaunt.
Monty takes it pretty seriously - and I happen to know that while he won't brag about it, has many times put his money where his mouth was and is, and generously.
Monty also has experience with getting boots to march for us in remote places - maybe can share a thought or two on how we might do that, and then maybe we can find a way to kick in resources to help it happen? Maybe we can get more traction with correspondence with someone in the historic arena there, just a thought. Before we launch anything I'd be eager to see what the latest round of pictures found in Miami yield (and thanks, Monty).
It still seems to me that the number one way to 'proof', if 2-2-V-1 is to ever be proven to have Earhart provenance without the airplane, is good photographic evidence.
Short of that we'll always be playing against a set of odds that will still include all the unknowables, and some things that might yet prove knowable and disqualifying, like fonts, etc.
But one great picture would be worth millions of words, if it is out there and can be had.
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Yes of course, more pictures will help, but we have a lot already. Can you imagine sitting in a HS air framing class in 1939 listening to Joe who used to work for XXXX talking about how he helped work on the Earhart airplane? "You see kids, we did this and that...."
I hope no one, especially Monty gets offended by my statement. I have the greatest respect for people who put their money where their mouth is and put in the leg work. But my checkbook is a partnership and my wife wouldn't approve of such an expenditure when we have so many other things we could contribute to. That is why I do not insert myself too much into the debate here. But I thought these Miami connections might be of interest to those who can and do. All I can do is cheer from the sidelines.
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I'm glad that was checked, but have always had doubts about whether this would have been well documented at all anyway. It looks more like a moonlight special to me - maybe done out of Pan Am's scrap bin by a couple of their guys for a hundred bucks under the table or something.
I think the logical patch-maker is Earhart's own mechanic Bo McKneely with some assistance from the FBO at Miami Municipal, Karl Voelter Inc.
The Pan Am guys had to come all the way from Dinner Key, about a half hour away, and they were instrument and radio techs, not metal benders.
Turns out Karl Voelter kept scrapbooks of his aviation career. The scrapbooks are now in a Miami archive. We're making arrangements to have a look at them.
I may have missed an update on this, .....was research accomplished on Mr Voelter's collection?
Below seems to be one example included in Mr Voelter papers;
http://historymiamiarchives.org/online-exhibits/aviation/selling-2.htm
This photo states it was taken one/two days before departure, it appears cropped from a larger capture. However; It may/may not originally include the patch area, and may be taken before the patch was applied.
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.was research accomplished on Mr Voelter's collection?
not originally include the patch area, and may be taken before the patch was applied.
We had a researcher check out Voelter's collection but he found relating to AE. Strange.
Below seems to be one example included in Mr Voelter papers;
http://historymiamiarchives.org/online-exhibits/aviation/selling-2.htm
This photo states it was taken one/two days before departure, it appears cropped from a larger capture. However; It may/may not originally include the patch area, and may be taken before the patch was applied.
Earhart's outfits are helpful in dating photos. She seems to have worn a different outfit every day. This is a new one to me. Clearly a posed photo op.
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Good catch, Jerry - thanks for sharing that. Always find these business-like captures of Earhart interesting - she sometimes looked kinda like Lindbergh in drag.
"Amelia, about that window over your left shoulder... say, that's not a picture of it in your hand, is it?" Dang it, missed her by... 77 years.
Voelter collection followed up by Ric per this earlier post (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1490.msg33556.html#msg33556) and now updated. Too bad we didn't find something.
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I think this one may be same day.....
http://www.kansas.com/incoming/eg0zc2/picture863456/alternates/FREE_960/earhart012911
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I think this one may be same day.....
Yep, right down to the shoes (the ones I think she was wearing when she died.)
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I sent an email inquiry as to the photo, here is the response;
From: Hugh, Dawn R. (HM) (DHugh@historymiami.org)
Sent: Wed 11/19/14 11:04 AM
Good afternoon gentlemen,
The original uncropped image that you referenced is in the Karl Voelter collection. You may purchase a digital copy at 600 dpi for $45.00.
We do not have sufficient staff to undertake research for the public, but you are welcomed to visit and research your topic. The Archives is opened from 10am to 4:30pm on Mondays thru Thursdays. The $8.00 entrance fee will give you a pass that is good for a month.
Sincerely,
Dawn Hugh
Archives Manager
101 West Flagler Street
Miami, Florida 33130
305-375-1623 direct
305-375-1492 main
www.historymiami.org
I am not close to the museum, it would be interesting to see the full capture , and to double check to see if any other photos are available ...it seems a large collection, so would be easy to overlook items. I would be willing to contribute for a restudy of the collection .
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I would be willing to contribute for a restudy of the collection .
Thank you Jerry. Much appreciated. Your timing is perfect. Jeff Glickman and I will be flying to Miami December 8 and making copy photos of a collection at the University of Miami first thing the next morning. We should be able to go the History Miami archive and look at the Voelter collection in the afternoon. This trip will cost TIGHAR about $1,000 but there seems to be a high potential for some important new imagery.
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I just talked to one of the associate archivists at History Miami. Unfortunately, the uncropped photo extends off to the left, not the right. None of the photos they have digitized shows the right hand side of the plane but there may be photos that have not been digitized. We'll plan on looking at everything they have.
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From the site linked to earlier, here is a short article of an experimental airplane (piloted by a Harrison R Tucker) damaged during landing round about the same period that Amelia Earhart visited and the Electra received its patch:
http://www.pbase.com/donboyd/image/96824264
Is it too far a stretch of the imagination to think that that aircraft may have been repaired in the same facility that fitted our famous patch?
Unfortunately, Google does not provide much information on Mr Tucker - but perhaps there are other sources out there that could identify him and his plane for us...
As far a legwork is concerned, I would love to dive in, but living on the other side of the pond over in Europe, my opportunities are limited...
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Seems worth digging into, nice find.
Maybe I can find a way to get down there if it can help. I'm enjoying the history that is emerging here.
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Is it too far a stretch of the imagination to think that that aircraft may have been repaired in the same facility that fitted our famous patch?
Yes. Different airport.
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Is it too far a stretch of the imagination to think that that aircraft may have been repaired in the same facility that fitted our famous patch?
Yes. Different airport.
Right, just figured that out for myself! In my defense I'll say the website seems to be a bit confusing.
Just to add to the confusion when searching the net, there is another Miami Municipal Airport in Oklahoma...
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Maybe I can find a way to get down there if it can help. I'm enjoying the history that is emerging here.
You're of course welcome to join us. If you can make it just send me an email and I'll fill you in on the details.
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Is it too far a stretch of the imagination to think that that aircraft may have been repaired in the same facility that fitted our famous patch?
Yes. Different airport.
I am told by a regular reader of the forum that the two airports were side-by-side (http://www.airfields-freeman.com/FL/Airfields_FL_Miami_N.htm#master).
I don't have a dog in this fight.
I don't think the odds of finding an airframe that was damaged circa 1937, worked on by the same shop with the same raw materials, and then preserved unchanged until 2014, with adequate provenance, are at all good.
Any patchwork found on such an old airframe could have been added any time during or after WWII, at least in principle.
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It is such an elegant historic pursuit, though - for those of us who dream so much. :)
I do think your points are absolutely good sense and true though.
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History Miami houses the Pan Am Artifacts collection, but unfortunately it appears to consist mainly of objects rather than photos:
http://www.historymiami.org/museum/objects/pan-am-collection/
Happy searching anyway,
Karen Hoy 2610CER
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http://www.historymiami.org/museum/objects/pan-am-collection/
Navigational Tools, 1933-1991 (29 objects)
Just maybe there is an old sextant worth viewing.
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Is it too far a stretch of the imagination to think that that aircraft may have been repaired in the same facility that fitted our famous patch?
Yes. Different airport.
I am told by a regular reader of the forum that the two airports were side-by-side (http://www.airfields-freeman.com/FL/Airfields_FL_Miami_N.htm#master).
I don't have a dog in this fight.
I don't think the odds of finding an airframe that was damaged circa 1937, worked on by the same shop with the same raw materials, and then preserved unchanged until 2014, with adequate provenance, are at all good.
Any patchwork found on such an old airframe could have been added any time during or after WWII, at least in principle.
The idea is not just to find an airframe (which would be nice), but any aircraft we identify would probably have been photographed, perhaps documented, all kinds of other evidence and paths for research that might enlighten us...
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The idea is not just to find an airframe (which would be nice), but any aircraft we identify would probably have been photographed, perhaps documented, all kinds of other evidence and paths for research that might enlighten us...
Any surviving documentation at all on individual aircraft from the 1930s is extremely rare. We know quite a bit, but not nearly enough, about Earhart's Electra because it was, after all, Earhart's Electra. It is not impossible that we could get useful information by chasing photos of random aircraft in Miami during that period but the chances are so vanishingly small that it's not worth extending the resources to do it - unless somebody wants to take it on as a volunteer project.
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It is not impossible that we could get useful information by chasing photos of random aircraft in Miami during that period but the chances are so vanishingly small that it's not worth extending the resources to do it - unless somebody wants to take it on as a volunteer project.
So ... how many TIGHARs do we have in the Miami area who are willing to go out and beat the bushes?
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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Maybe I can find a way to get down there if it can help. I'm enjoying the history that is emerging here.
You're of course welcome to join us. If you can make it just send me an email and I'll fill you in on the details.
Cool, thanks! Please do - just maybe can.
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I think this one may be same day.....
http://www.kansas.com/incoming/eg0zc2/picture863456/alternates/FREE_960/earhart012911
This is one of those cool human moment pictures for me - the kind that makes me want to understand exactly what's going on with the characters at that moment and place.
Not sure we can know whose toolbox that is, but I cannot make out anything relating to sheet metal work.
My impression is that Bo McNeely's primary focus was nuts, bolts and grease; the metal work seems most likely arranged by whatever could have been borrowed or arranged locally.
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This is one of those cool human moment pictures for me - the kind that makes me want to understand exactly what's going on with the characters at that moment and place.
Call me a cynic but I think I know those two well enough to say that what you see is a carefully staged photo op. The tool box has nothing to do with anything.
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This is one of those cool human moment pictures for me - the kind that makes me want to understand exactly what's going on with the characters at that moment and place.
Call me a cynic but I think I know those two well enough to say that what you see is a carefully staged photo op. The tool box has nothing to do with anything.
Good point - there was no such thing as a published candid photo of Earhart - nor Putnam, I suspect. Not cynical, just calling it as it is.
No telling whose box that is - no, means nothing. I simply zeroed in hoping to find a CP rivet gun, some clecos, cleco pliers, sets and such... LOL!!!
I DO see what might be the handle of a file, but more likely an old-style screw-driver.
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Yeah I think unfortunately it's a staged photo. He's not actually doing anything, just sitting there in a bunch of stuff that looks 'mechanicish'. If he had his tools out he'd be up to his elbows in grease by now...
I'm always struck by Amelia's clothes. They always seem ill fitting, was that the style back then or was she just determinded to dress as asexual as possible?
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The master publicist - just fitting right in at the ol' aerodrome amid the tools and scuffle of the trade... the aviatrix ready for her next sortie, a light moment between partners and lovers before she would part - forever.
She does seem deliberately almost mannish very often - but aviation was a man's sport mostly too, image-wise. If she'd take them on it had to be on terms of doing all they did - and being as rough and tumble, I guess.
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It's a very strange look... her clothes aren't just manly, they're way oversized. I've read that she made her own clothes for quite a while, so I think maybe it's just a combination of that, the masculine look of them, and also perhaps at that time period clothes were less form fitting than they are now.
She seemed to be pretty careful with her image, so I would imagine she wanted to appear that way... so it's either just a style I'm ignorant of because it's so antiquated or perhaps she was trying to look more like Lindbergh? She looks uncannily like him.
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Much has been written about Earhart's fashion choices. She was a major trend setter - and yes, her image was carefully managed. I recommend Amelia Earhart - Image and Icon (http://www.amazon.com/Amelia-Earhart-Image-Sue-Butler/dp/386521407X) and changed rather dramatically in the course of her nine-year public career (1928-1937).
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Ron,
Last summer when I went to Chicago, I did some research on Amelia and come to find out she spent some time at Marshall Fields there on State and Washington Street. The reason that led me there was to do research on actually Dr. C.H. Berry. How, I came about Amelia playing a part of Marshall's was this particular photo that hangs in there history center. There also in the Chicago History Museum is a dress that Amelia wore back during that time period. According to what the historian at Marshall's told me was Amelia try to get her line of clothing on the market, but it never panned out and wasn't much of a selling item to Chicago women. Also, in light of Dr. Berry...the good doctor had his office directly across the street from Marshall Fields. Historians first thought that his practice was actually in the Marshall Fields building itself, but later found out that the street addresses flip flopped after the Chicago fire, and thus therefore he was in a fancy skyscraper that today has finally been renovated! Anyway, as for Amelia's image...I think she had to cover all bases when it came to her image and integrity. We have to think about what she was thinking when she wore makeup as a pilot...Was it necessary or not. My belief is it was mainly because of her scar from her sinus surgery as a child. As for her line of clothing...I believe she was mainly making not only a fashion statement but a major statement to men across the country...that if a man can do it...so can a woman!!! I believe she was a tough cookie and no one was going to tell her differently. Same with her flying....
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It's a very strange look... her clothes aren't just manly, they're way oversized.....or perhaps she was trying to look more like Lindbergh?
Funny how you can work along side someone for years and then all of a sudden you learn that he is PAUL MANTZ'S GRANDSON! He showed me this photo online today....this discussion reminded me to post this photo. Apparently Mantz kept it on his desk until his death in 1965.
http://www.aerovintage.com/tallmantz/tallmantz-6a.jpg
Moderator updated and link corrected 11-25-2014 at 11:00 a.m.
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Holly cats Friend I hope you follow up with him re the current project!
Ted Campbell
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Holly cats Friend I hope you follow up with him re the current project!
Ted Campbell
I will tomorrow.....we only had a few minutes to chat this afternoon when all of a sudden he drops this bombshell on me! I had to get back up the hill and finishing fixing the transmitter, he had a meeting with the big boss. He does have some pretty cool photos in his office....and alluded that family legend has it that GP didn't really want Mantz in the picture on second attempt.
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... family legend has it that GP didn't really want Mantz in the picture on second attempt.
That's true.
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I'm guessing that Mantz by then was already a big draw himself and might have created an impression of watering down Earhart's own accomplishment.
The sad fact is that Putnam was no judge of aviation flesh and Earhart surely could have used the expertise Mantz might have delivered. The outcome makes it fairly clear that a voice of reason might have bridged the gap for the flight at the end in terms of radio readiness and better coordination. Gut feel anyway - I can't quanitify that other than to say I believe Mantz would likely have been more savvy at looking ahead more successfully at working-level connections with Itasca, etc. than Earhart demonstrated herself as being.
I don't think the first plan (west bound) included Mantz going any furhter than Howland from Hawaii, did it? Or was that Manning who was to be discharged after reaching Howland?
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I'm guessing that Mantz by then was already a big draw himself and might have created an impression of watering down Earhart's own accomplishment.
I don't think it was that. Mantz knew that Earhart wasn't ready. Putnam and Earhart didn't want to wait so they slipped out the back door while Paul was at an air race in Cleveland.
I don't think the first plan (west bound) included Mantz going any furhter than Howland from Hawaii, did it? Or was that Manning who was to be discharged after reaching Howland?
[/quote]
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It's a very strange look... her clothes aren't just manly, they're way oversized.....or perhaps she was trying to look more like Lindbergh?
Funny how you can work along side someone for years and then all of a sudden you learn that he is PAUL MANTZ'S GRANDSON! He showed me this photo online today....this discussion reminded me to post this photo. Apparently Mantz kept it on his desk until his death in 1965.
http://www.aerovintage.com/tallmantz/tallmantz-6.jpg
Is it just me, or is anyone else having trouble getting to this photo via the link? Tells me I don't have permission to access tithe file on the server. ??
AMCK
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I can't see it either.
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I can't see it either.
The poster left off a letter in the URL. I've corrected it.
AE looks like a starlet in this pose, instead of Ms. Lindy.
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Says I am "forbidden" too.
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I don't think it was that. Mantz knew that Earhart wasn't ready. Putnam and Earhart didn't want to wait so they slipped out the back door while Paul was at an air race in Cleveland.
In Lost Star, by Patricia Lauber ,....page 72,...first paragraph....
Paul Mantz was upset when he learned that Amelia left for Miami. He was not satisfied with the radio equipment or AEs knowledge of how to spin out her fuel.
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A previous post on this thread regarding your trip to Univeristy of Miami reminded me of a line of personal online research that I had forgotten about. At the time I was hoping to find something that would link Pan Am and/or Fred Noonan to sextant 3500/1542... a Pan Am purchase or re-inspection of sextants, a letter loaning something to Mr. Noonan, etc.
This link is a finding aid for the Pan Am collection: http://proust.library.miami.edu/findingaids/legacy/asm0341CL.pdf (http://proust.library.miami.edu/findingaids/legacy/asm0341CL.pdf)
If you're going to be there anyway... these might be worth a look.
Box 211, Folder 3 contrains files on Fred Noonan.
Box 627, Folder 46, c. 1935 - 1938, is titled "Navigation instruments and Laboratory equipment"
LTM
3062A
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Here's a link to the site for the AE pictures that works for me: http://aerovintage.com/.
There are two pictures of interest. The AE 'starlet' picture is in Gallery No.2. There's another picture of Mantz, AE, Tallman and Noonan in the Paul Mantz biography section. Both are good quality scans.
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Mantz sure had a personality by his appearance (and he did, actually, by accounts here and there).
Earhart could be a great looking lady when she wanted it to show - nice glamor shot of her.
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This link is a finding aid for the Pan Am collection: http://proust.library.miami.edu/findingaids/legacy/asm0341CL.pdf (http://proust.library.miami.edu/findingaids/legacy/asm0341CL.pdf)
If you're going to be there anyway... these might be worth a look.
Box 211, Folder 3 contrains files on Fred Noonan.
Box 627, Folder 46, c. 1935 - 1938, is titled "Navigation instruments and Laboratory equipment"
Good find, Todd. We did have a researcher comb through all the relevant PanAm materaisl that he could find, but ... the sheer volume of materials makes it a certainty that there might, possibly, be more. I'm sure Ric will check this out once they get the copies of the photos made, which is the main purpose of this jaunt.
LTM, who says The check is in the mail,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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I can't see it either.
The poster left off a letter in the URL. I've corrected it.
AE looks like a starlet in this pose, instead of Ms. Lindy.
A thousand pardons.....!
Friend
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If you're going to be there anyway... these might be worth a look.
Box 211, Folder 3 contrains files on Fred Noonan.
Box 627, Folder 46, c. 1935 - 1938, is titled "Navigation instruments and Laboratory equipment"
Thanks Todd. We may be able to get the archivist to pull the boxes ahead of our arrival to save time.
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If you're going to be there anyway... these might be worth a look.
Box 211, Folder 3 contrains files on Fred Noonan.
Box 627, Folder 46, c. 1935 - 1938, is titled "Navigation instruments and Laboratory equipment"
Thanks Todd. We may be able to get the archivist to pull the boxes ahead of our arrival to save time.
Good researchers are where you find them, aren't they?
What I love about this place - this spirit, and something about 'many hands' (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Many+hands+make+light+work)... :)
Many thanks, Todd.
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Hubba Hubba!
That is all.
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The Miami trip did not produce any dramatic new information. The University of Miami archive was incredibly cooperative and Jeff Glickman got a really good copy photo of the negative but the negative is a third generation copy-neg and there's just not a lot of information there.
Here's the back story on the photos in the collection:
In 1995 the Leonard Albasi/Gill Family allowed the University of Miami to photograph eight small contact-print photos that, according to markings on the back, were developed on November 22, 1937. I'll post jpgs of all of the images
The university has the negatives of the photos the university took and a set of prints made from those negatives. The Leonard Albasi/Gill Family retained the original prints. So what the university has are third generation images. ( 1st generation - original negative; 2nd generation - print from original negative; 3rd generation - negative of photo of print).
Yesterday we learned that when the university gave us positive images made from the 3rd generation negs they "enhanced" them to create a "better" image. As a result, some of the detail we see on and around the patch in the image they gave us isn't really there. We were hoping that we would be able to get resolution that was better than what we gotten from the university. In fact, the best accurate image is not as good. At least the copy-photo Jeff Glickman made yesterday is an accurate copy of the 3rd generation neg - but there's just not much information there.
The Leonard Albasi/Gill family clearly valued the prints. They almost certainly still have them and possibly even the original negs. The university has no information about the family.
My speculation from studying the photos:
My guess is that Leonard Albasi took the photos and that he took them on Sunday, May 30 because:
• All eight photos seem to have been taken the same day (same people wearing same outfits).
• We know the window was still there on Saturday, May 29.
• One of the photos shows the plane taking off but it's not early morning as in the June 1 departure photos.
• There was a 1.5 hour test flight on Sunday, May 30. No test flight on Monday.
One of the photos is the famous "last farewell" shot, obviously staged. (We just have a snapshot of the print. We didn't bother to get the university to make us a digital copy because we have many copies of that shot.) However, I now wonder whether Albasi just got the same shot everyone else got because he was there - or - was Albasi a professional photographer and is this THE "last farewell" photo that has been reproduced so often?
I'd be willing to bet that Leonard Albasi is the dude in the cravat posing with his hand on the Electra cowling. That's a selfie if I ever saw one. (Negative 006)
Note that Noonan is nowhere to be seen.
I suspect that Albasi had a daughter who married a guy named Gill. After her father died she wanted to be sure her father's Amelia Earhart photos were preserved for posterity so she let the university take copy-photos.
So here's the challenge - can we find the Leonard Albasi/Gill family and possibly get access to the original prints?
We did check out the suggested PanAm boxes plus a few others suggested by the archivist in charge of that collection.
Box 211, Folder 3 - "Fred Noonan" contains only two pieces of 1986 correspondence with Japanese Capture fan Paul Rafford Jr.
Box 267, Folder 46. c.1935-1938, labeled "Navigation Instruments and Laboratory Equipment" contain only a booklet on how to use the E2 Flight Computer (basically a circular slide-rule designed for aviation use) The E6b, a later version of the same tool, is still kicking around in the bottom of many flight bags.
Folders of documents relating to the Dinner Key seaplane base 1921-1937 produced nothing of interest. A folder of aircraft photographs had some great photos of various Clippers but nothing related to Earhart.
We also visited History Miami. They have a few photos of AE from early in her flying career but the two photos that show her in Miami they have only in digital format at.
So the trip was pretty much a bust. We've had so many successes recently that we tend to forget that this is the way it usually goes. No regrets. We know more than we did and, with the Forum's help, we may still be able to find the original photos. A big thank you to Forum lurker Dr. Roger Thomas who originally discovered the collection on line and who came all the way from Texas to join me and Jeff Glickman in Miami.
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Here are three more from the Leonard Albasi/Gill Family collection.
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And one more.
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May be: Kathryn Lynn Albasi Gill, born 1949 (Looks like Leonard got married in 1941 so this fits), married Jan 1970, lived at 9631 NW 26th Ct, Hollywood FL in 2008. House was last sold in 2002 so she may still be there. Phone in 2008 was 954-432-2882 but this number belongs to a restaurant now. You can find just about anything on the net. Anyone in the Hollywood area that could follow through?
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Unbelievable. If we can't get a phone or email address we can always write a letter. Facebook?
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An article about Mr. Albasi's 100th birthday:
http://www.tcpalm.com/lifestyle/100th-birthday_20140523122831547
His daughter:
Kathryn A Gill
5524 Chicory Falls
Las Vegas, NV 89148
Age 65 (Born Apr 1949)
(702) 736-4457
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Perfect Karen. Thank you!
The 100th birthday party was in 2009. Leonard died in 2013 at age 104. I'll try to connect with his daughter today.
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Just talked to Kathryn’s husband. Kathryn gave the photos to her daughter Jonell who lives in Florida. He will call her and ask her to call me.
Albasi worked for Goodyear and was on the crew for the blimp. He just happened to be at Miami Municipal that day.
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When I look at the patch in the photo labelled ‘Negatives005-cropped’ I see an arc-like shape with one end near the middle of the bottom edge of the patch, and the other end extending to the upper right hand corner of the patch. I’ve tried to mark them in yellow in the attached, but the image at its current resolution (?dpi) doesn’t look good when enlarged.
I’m curious what we are seeing here and wonder if it would be possible to see this small portion of ‘Negatives005-cropped’ at better resolution. If ‘Negatives005-cropped’ is itself cropped, I think it should be possible to save the resulting image at 300 dpi and still have a manageable file size.
Thanks
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I’m curious what we are seeing here....
Nothing reliable. As I explained in an earlier posting, that image was "enhanced" by the university which can introduce detail that is not really there.
The good news is that Jonell has agreed to loan the original print to Jeff Glickman.
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Does she have the original negative?
amck
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Does she have the original negative?
Unfortunately no.
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So much to wish for. We have to be grateful for what was found and what it might tell us, 77 years is a long time and this is remarkable, whatever we learn.
Sometimes I think many of us get so focused on solving the disappearance that we forget the value of filling in the many details that was Amelia's life and that of others around her during this historic time.
We may find more answers about the window covering here, or we may not. But what we have for certain is another glimpse into the flight through an interesting man's eyes because he was able to take pictures while at his own interesting work wth the blimp. And now we have the touchstone of his descendants.
Part of me just has to appreciate the greater story now and then. Glad ya'll went after he photos.
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For history's sake I would say your trip was not a bust at all.
Indeed.
Of course we still don't know whether the print will yield new information but the way we were able to track down and get access to the best existing image is a classic example of TIGHAR's research capabilities.
• A TIGHAR member and Forum lurker, entirely on his own initiative, spotted the Leonard Albasi/Gill Family collection of photos in the University of Miami archive during an on-line search for anything relating to Earhart in Miami.
• Another TIGHAR member and active Forum contributor, entirely on his own initiative, hired a student at the university to look at the collection. The student took some photos from which we were able to see that the photos were of interest. The TIGHAR member then paid to have the university send hi-res copies of the photos.
• From the hi-res photos it was apparent that one of the photos showed the freshly installed patch on a day prior to the June 1 departure but it was also apparent that the negative had been scanned incorrectly and it was not all clear whether the university had original material or copies.
• A research trip to Miami was clearly needed and TIGHAR members responded with contributions that made the trip possible.
• The trip to the archive revealed that the best the university had was a copy-negative of the original print. The resolution of this 3rd generation image was not sufficient to extract new information.
• The research team correctly reasoned that the name of the collection implied that a married daughter of Leonard Albasi held the original photos.
• Forum researchers quickly located the daughter. A phone call from TIGHAR's executive director connected with the daughter's husband who said that the daughter had given the photos to her own daughter. He agreed to pass along the TIGHAR phone number and a request that his daughter, Mr. Albasi's grandaughter, call us.
• The daughter/grandaughter phoned that same day. She confirmed that she has the original prints and she was familiar with TIGHAR's investigation. TIGHAR's credibility led her to agree to loan this treasured family item.
None of us could have done this on our own but the combination of TIGHAR's network of talented volunteer researchers, our willingness to follow up on hunches, our members who are willing to fund needed on-site research, and TIGHAR's high and credible public profile combined to give us access of never-before tapped resources.
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That's the best part of what TIGHAR is about I think, well said.
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That's the best part of what TIGHAR is about I think, well said.
Hear Hear!!! I fully agree with Jeff!
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Just heard from Jonell Gill. The photo is on its way to Jeff Glickman. He should have it Monday.
Incidentally, both Jonell and her father told me that they had originally offered Albasi's photos to the Smithsonian but they were not interested.
Purdue has the Darwin Fueling photo as a decent size print. Dunno what generation. We'll need special permission for Jeff to go there and take a max-res copy photo. I have a call in to the head of Special Collections. We'll see how that goes.
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Just out of curiosity, and not knowing the innards of a 10-E intimately, what might the mechanic be working on in the several shots where the nose hatch is open?
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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Just out of curiosity, and not knowing the innards of a 10-E intimately, what might the mechanic be working on in the several shots where the nose hatch is open?
That's probably the Pan Am instrument technician working on the Sperry Gyropilot (autopilot) which was giving them fits. The guts of the GyroPilot were up in the nose.
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Ric,
Let us know what is needed $ wise to chase down this lead. I am ready to contribute.
Ted Campbell
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Let us know what is needed $ wise to chase down this lead. I am ready to contribute.
Thanks Ted. Dunno yet. Stand by.
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Ric,
Has Jeff Glickman had a chance to examine Jonell Gill's photo yet?
I know you're loathe to try to explain Jeff's high-tech photo analysis methods, but while we wait for Jeff's full report on the photos he's examined, hyperspectral analyses, etc, maybe Jeff could provide you with a brief description of the methods used; that might give some of us a little time to do our homework to better understand the analysis methods he is using on patch photos.
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Has Jeff Glickman had a chance to examine Jonell Gill's photo yet?
Yes. Jeff briefed me yesterday. The original print provided by Jonell is much better than the 3rd generation negative we saw in Miami but it's still not as good as Miami Herald photo. No new information on the rivet lines. The lighting angle does, however, make the edges of the individual skins more visible. He should be able to answer the question of how close the aft edge of the patch was to Station 320.
modified to fix quotation markup
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The original print provided by Jonell is much better than the 3rd generation negative we saw in Miami but it's still not as good as Miami Herald photo.
That's to be expected, even if it is unfortunate. Those were basically snapshots, taken with a 1930s version of the point and shoot cameras. Still worth the trip, though, since now these photos are available to the wider public.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP