TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Tim Gard on September 22, 2014, 11:12:22 AM

Title: Ask Ric
Post by: Tim Gard on September 22, 2014, 11:12:22 AM
I found  Ask Ric  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqS9GXM7nag)very informative.

As Ric says, there's no evidence to say that AE didn't keep TX'ing after switching to 6210KHZ. Possibly then, all the way to touchdown on Gardiner Island?

It occurs to me that A.E may also have been RX'ing during some of this time. If that's the case, did she hear transmissions, subsequent to the 6210 switch, that suggested Itasca might have been in the process of weighing anchor to begin a search for her?

If AE's initial impression was that Gardiner Island was Howland Island, then the Norwich City may have seemed to be the Itasca. Might that have expedited a landing next to the Norwich City, to avoid being stranded on the island?

The point is that this reasoning may be another account of her choice for the landing location and a reduction in concern for the depth of the water. The arrival has always seemed like the textbook procedure for attracting the attention of a ship prior to a ditching at sea. It also gives an account for the direction chosen for landing.

I think of that old pilot adage "it's better to hit the fence at the far end of the field than at the threshold" doesn't count when the far end fence is a 5,000 ton freighter.



Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 22, 2014, 11:26:50 AM
If AE's initial impression was that Gardiner Island was Howland Island, then the Norwich City may have seemed to be the Itasca. Might that have expedited a landing next to the Norwich City, to avoid being stranded on the island?

That would be surprising to me.  She knew what Howland looked like and Gardner looks nothing like that.  Norwich City was a rusted, burned out hulk with her back broken in two places (as described by Lambrecht).

Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Tim Gard on September 22, 2014, 11:42:23 AM

That would be surprising to me.  She knew what Howland looked like and Gardner looks nothing like that. 

Ric, how had AE come to view Howland Island?

Norwich City was a rusted, burned out hulk with her back broken in two places (as described by Lambrecht).

I wonder about a pilot's ability to remain that clear headed under the circumstances of mistaken position.

Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: JNev on September 22, 2014, 11:49:48 AM
Tim,

Not sure it was likely for Earhart to confuse the two islands - drastically different in appearance (see pictures below).  Would she have known?  Not necessarily what Gardner looked like (in fact many of us doubt that she or Fred knew what Gardner looked like), but almost certainly would have known what to expect at Howland since a considerable effort had been going on there on her behalf for some time  (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Letters/Wynne12_14_36.pdf) with a fair bit of communication.

Similar for N.C. vs. Itasca - the freighter was described by others as something not like what I believe a living ship like Itasca would look like, like for instance the naval search pilot Lambrecht  (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Lambrecht's_Report.html) -

Quote
Gardner is a typical example of your south sea atoll … a narrow circular strip of land (about as wide as Coronado’s silver strand) surrounding a large lagoon. Most of this island is covered with tropical vegetation with, here and there, a grove of coconut palms... At the western end of the island a tramp steamer (of about 4000 tons) bore mute evidence of unlighted and poorly charted “Rocks and Shoals”. She lay high and almost dry head onto the coral beach with her back broken in two places.

Just thoughts, YMMV, of course.

Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Tim Gard on September 22, 2014, 11:53:45 AM
Not sure it was likely for Earhart to confuse the two islands - drastically different in appearance (see pictures below). 

The picture I hold is of AE under such pressure that the finer details of ship and island become irrelevant.

 
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: JNev on September 22, 2014, 12:16:10 PM
The picture I hold is of AE under such pressure that the finer details of ship and island become irrelevant.

That's pretty blind; that kind of stress implies loss of fine motor skills, too - if so, shoulda been a bad wreck...
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Tim Gard on September 22, 2014, 12:23:48 PM
That's pretty blind; that kind of stress implies loss of fine motor skills, too - if so, shoulda been a bad wreck...

Such that might cause the gear to separate.


Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Mark Samuels on September 22, 2014, 12:49:25 PM
That's pretty blind; that kind of stress implies loss of fine motor skills, too - if so, shoulda been a bad wreck...

Such that might cause the gear to separate.

Mr. Gard,

With all due respect, I belive you equivocate in this and the previous posts.  It would be near to impossible not to be able to distinguish Gardner from Howland.  Howland had a newly scratched out runway, running almost the full length of it.  There was a portable manned radio station, barrels of fuel, lighting, I believe a bulldozer still there and Military men standing by.  Last but not least a big ass'd ship 'Itaska' far enough off shore not to run aground.  Surely even in a somewhat tired and frustrated circumstance, Amelia could, and likely would have known the difference.
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: JNev on September 22, 2014, 03:54:25 PM
Somehow, as goofy as Earhart could be at times, I just don't get a sense of her seeing Niku and going "OMG there it IS!!!" through her tears and all...

More like "shit, where are we Fred..."

Just my opinion, of course - who knows?
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Greg Daspit on September 22, 2014, 05:12:18 PM
If what they first saw appeared to be a tiny silhouette of a ship and a tiny silhouette of an island in the far distance, shapes appearing to be an island and a ship of unknown size on the horizon, maybe at a angle that you can't see the side profile of the ship, then maybe for a brief time, I could see them thinking it was Howland. Especially if very far away and (edit)west of it when they saw it.(the sun behind the shape) Not when they got closer though. No way that that could be considered Howland by the time they decided to land where they did. IMHO
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Friend Weller on September 22, 2014, 05:17:31 PM
.....I could see them thinking it was Howland. Especially if very far away and east of it when they saw it. Not when they got closer though.....

Or in the words of Lewis Carroll....

"It's a Snark!" was the sound that first came to their ears,
And seemed almost too good to be true.
Then followed a torrent of laughter and cheers:
Then the ominous words "It's a Boo-"

Then, silence. Some fancied they heard in the air
A weary and wandering sigh
Then sounded like "-jum!" but the others declare
It was only a breeze that went by.

They hunted till darkness came on, but they found
Not a button, or feather, or mark,
By which they could tell that they stood on the ground
Where the Baker had met with the Snark.

In the midst of the word he was trying to say,
In the midst of his laughter and glee,
He had softly and suddenly vanished away---
For the Snark *was* a Boojum, you see.
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Ric Gillespie on September 22, 2014, 05:58:12 PM
Included among the charts that Clarence Williams prepared for Earhart's first world flight attempt was a map of Howland. 

When approaching a coral atoll in an airplane the first thing that catches your eye is the turquoise color of the lagoon. Of course, Howland is not an atoll and has no lagoon.
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Tim Gard on September 23, 2014, 02:50:19 AM
An example of real life mistaken position (41:00) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35qsu9HsYos) and its psychological pressure.
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Tim Gard on September 23, 2014, 02:50:55 AM
Included among the charts that Clarence Williams prepared for Earhart's first world flight attempt was a map of Howland. 

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Tim Gard on September 23, 2014, 02:58:21 AM
Mr. Gard,

With all due respect, I belive you equivocate in this and the previous posts.  It would be near to impossible not to be able to distinguish Gardner from Howland.  Howland had a newly scratched out runway, running almost the full length of it.  There was a portable manned radio station, barrels of fuel, lighting, I believe a bulldozer still there and Military men standing by.  Last but not least a big ass'd ship 'Itaska' far enough off shore not to run aground.  Surely even in a somewhat tired and frustrated circumstance, Amelia could, and likely would have known the difference.

Mark,

I see evidence of your own philosophy reflected by you in your replies. “Reality can be beaten with enough imagination.”

Just think how you appear to those who ridicule the hypothesis.

Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: JNev on September 23, 2014, 07:41:56 AM
An example of real life mistaken position (41:00) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35qsu9HsYos) and its psychological pressure.

Interesting film clip, Tim, but I don't see the connection between war time Lancasters flying at 100 feet at night over all that water in fortified Holland vs. Earhart over an open ocean looking for an island.

I don't doubt the pressure as fuel ran low and Howland was not in sight - but that raises another point:

So what if she did see Gardner at that point? 

While I personally, for reasons cited above, believe she would have known it wasn't Howland, she wasn't exactly going to figure out what it was and beat a path 350 miles to the NNW back to Howland, either.  At that point too, it seems having found land with still having fuel aboard would come as more relief than panicking - one might gladly make the landing quite well and worry about being found later, it seems to me.

Somehow then it hardly seems like Earhart made a 'mistaken' landing at Gardner, having stumbled across it; and even had she taken it for Howland - wouldn't that itself have been a relief?

Maybe I'm just not following your line of thought on this, but these things seem reasonable in my view.  YMMV, of course.
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Tim Gard on September 23, 2014, 07:45:55 AM
Interesting film clip, Tim, but I don't see the connection between war time Lancasters flying at 100 feet at night over all that water in fortified Holland vs. Earhart over an open ocean looking for an island.

I agree that you don't see the connection between war time Lancasters flying at 100 feet at night over all that water in fortified Holland vs. Earhart over an open ocean looking for an island.

Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: JNev on September 23, 2014, 07:47:39 AM
Mr. Gard,

With all due respect, I belive you equivocate in this and the previous posts.  It would be near to impossible not to be able to distinguish Gardner from Howland.  Howland had a newly scratched out runway, running almost the full length of it.  There was a portable manned radio station, barrels of fuel, lighting, I believe a bulldozer still there and Military men standing by.  Last but not least a big ass'd ship 'Itaska' far enough off shore not to run aground.  Surely even in a somewhat tired and frustrated circumstance, Amelia could, and likely would have known the difference.

Mark,

I see evidence of your own philosophy reflected by you in your replies. “Reality can be beaten with enough imagination.”

Just think how you appear to those who ridicule the hypothesis.

LOL!!!  Now Tim... you must realize that it does take quite an imagination to synthesize the ideas that must be explored to find real answers - you yourself over time have given us quite a picture of how the landing could have gone down, with detailed thoughts as to particular damage and injuries, much of which we really cannot substantiate.

Not to interfere in your remark, of course - but there's an irony here I just couldn't resist.  Perhaps Mark appreciates such irony himself, I don't know.

God I love this place.  ;)
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: JNev on September 23, 2014, 07:48:29 AM
I agree that you don't see the connection between war time Lancasters flying at 100 feet at night over all that water in fortified Holland vs. Earhart over an open ocean looking for an island.

Glad we can agree on something, Tim.
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Monty Fowler on September 23, 2014, 07:56:55 AM
Hey guys? We're all on the same side here. Remember?

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189ECSP
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: JNev on September 23, 2014, 09:07:09 AM
Who's fussing?  :D
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: Mark Samuels on September 23, 2014, 09:23:51 AM
Mr. Gard,

With all due respect, I belive you equivocate in this and the previous posts.  It would be near to impossible not to be able to distinguish Gardner from Howland.  Howland had a newly scratched out runway, running almost the full length of it.  There was a portable manned radio station, barrels of fuel, lighting, I believe a bulldozer still there and Military men standing by.  Last but not least a big ass'd ship 'Itaska' far enough off shore not to run aground.  Surely even in a somewhat tired and frustrated circumstance, Amelia could, and likely would have known the difference.

Mark,

I see evidence of your own philosophy reflected by you in your replies. “Reality can be beaten with enough imagination.”

Just think how you appear to those who ridicule the hypothesis.

"Do you expect me to account for opinions which you choose to call mine, but which I have never acknowledged?"  And those who ridicule the hypothesis, I choose to give short shrift, as they are usually ill founded.
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: JNev on September 25, 2014, 03:51:04 PM
I think we need a Flight 19 thread.

Done - see "Flight 19". (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,376.0.html)
Title: Re: Ask Ric
Post by: C.W. Herndon on September 26, 2014, 04:18:37 AM
Included among the charts that Clarence Williams prepared for Earhart's first world flight attempt was a map of Howland. 

From Purdue's Earhart Collection, here is a copy of Clarence Williams' map of Howland.