TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Artifact Analysis => Topic started by: Laura Gridley on June 07, 2013, 08:48:38 PM
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Are there any recent updates on DNA analysis of the fecal matter collected? Last post I could find in the artifact analysis area of the forum was from 2011.
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I'm interested in the answer to this question, too. When reading up I found this from Andrew McKenna:
We collected "fecal" material during both the 2007 and 2010 expeditions. The 2007 sample, which was not collected with sterile protocols, had what appeared to be Ric's DNA in it. I think it is the 2010 sample that has recently been tested that has the two different human DNA traces in it. Ric could set me straight on this.
This is the first I've read of 2 fecal matter collections. I read as much as I can, so pardon me of this has already been discussed.
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That's where I ended up too Gloria. That was the first I heard about possibly 2 samples and I don't see anything more recent than that.
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Sure is good to see you ladies posting. It's been a while since there has been much input from the feminine side of our membership. Keep it up!
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Thanks Woody! We're definitely somewhat swimming in testosterone here on the forum but there are a few of us women around. ;)
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Sure is good to see you ladies posting.
Thanks, Woody! We sure are outnumbered, but we're here. Now, what about that 2nd fecal matter collection from the 2010 expedition...
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Sure is good to see you ladies posting.
Thanks, Woody! We sure are outnumbered, but we're here. Now, what about that 2nd fecal matter collection from the 2010 expedition...
This is the latest poop I could find on the matter (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,225.15.html?wwparam=1377112195)...
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Sure is good to see you ladies posting.
Thanks, Woody! We sure are outnumbered, but we're here. Now, what about that 2nd fecal matter collection from the 2010 expedition...
This is the latest poop I could find on the matter (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,225.15.html?wwparam=1377112195)...
Thanks, Jeff. Love the double entendre! That thread is where I found the quote from Andrew McKenna. Where do we stand on looking for DNA from the 2 fecal collections? Without going back to Niku, finding DNA is the best chance for finding the smoking gun. Does TIGHAR need more money for more testing? Are more tests being planned?
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Some rough calculations on Number 2 production on Gardner Island from 1800's to present day attached, strictly a potential turd census for the island without consideration to particular toilet habits or facilities.
If the artifact does turn out to have Earhart provenance then it is one magic dookie amongst the other half million that didn't make the grade
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Some rough calculations on Number 2 production on Gardner Island from 1800's to present day attached, strictly a potential turd census for the island without consideration to particular toilet habits or facilities.
If the artifact does turn out to have Earhart provenance then it is one magic dookie amongst the other half million that didn't make the grade
LMAO/ROFL/LOL!!!
Yer killin' me... and excellent postulation / arguable research (yes, it "must have been so", hard to argue against.
Now that's one big pile of...
Wait, you didn't factor in the possibility of Earhart possibly having dysentery, etc. as you seem to have assumed healthy stools and regular daily movements like British Army clockwork here... not that less than firm product might survive so well, of course...
How to cut this one? Not sure, but for sure we still need to chase it - who wouldn't want the poop on Earhart having gone there, not that we can say where no man (or woman) went before?
Butt if it comes down to one magic turd and a slogan like "Earhart ____ed here" (reader's choice), I'll take it! ;D
Never let it be said that TIGHAR doesn't have a sense of humor, even when rolling her sleeves up to seriously roll this kind of evidence around. It surely cannot be said that she's afraid of getting a little on her hands either.
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There are a number of serious (honest) questions that need asking when looking at this table:
What were the typical 'movement' habits of the various types identified? For instance islanders usually used the lagoon via jetties to jettison their output.
Westerners in residence (not shipwrecked) would have had latrines.
IMO this would increase the chance of for the sample to come from another source.
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There are a number of serious (honest) questions that need asking when looking at this table:
What were the typical 'movement' habits of the various types identified? For instance islanders usually used the lagoon via jetties to jettison their output.
Westerners in residence (not shipwrecked) would have had latrines.
IMO this would increase the chance of for the sample to come from another source.
I am moved by the seriousness of your point, Chris, true.
I recall from somewhere that islanders tend to do as you've said, and surely the predominant western habit for military settlement would include latrines, not that a wayward troop might not make a deposit in any convenient spot.
Being as this particular dung beetle bait was found, and all alone, it does seem to point to something perhaps more unique. Even more humorous than what it is, to me, is the fact that it is indeed a relic most of us would scarcely have dreamt of - and one with the potential to display precisely the sought after DNA.
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I wonder if islanders subject to British influence wouldn't tend to pick up any "refinement" in toilet practices over 25 years.
After a daily regimen of God Save the Queen, tea and crumpets and fish and chips, taking a dump off the pier seems somehow out of place.
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I wonder if islanders subject to British influence wouldn't tend to pick up any "refinement" in toilet practices over 25 years.
After a daily regimen of God Save the Queen, tea and crumpets and fish and chips, taking a dump off the pier seems somehow out of place.
When in Rome...
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I wonder if islanders subject to British influence wouldn't tend to pick up any "refinement" in toilet practices over 25 years.
After a daily regimen of God Save the Queen, tea and crumpets and fish and chips, taking a dump off the pier seems somehow out of place.
No still common practice in Kiribati.
Should also add that even if they used an old 'crapper' they'd also need pipe to put it in either a septic tank or out into the lagoon so it would be far easier to go on the old pontoon.
BTW stereo typing colonial Britain or Britain in general is my job on this forum ;)
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I wonder if islanders subject to British influence wouldn't tend to pick up any "refinement" in toilet practices over 25 years.
After a daily regimen of God Save the Queen, tea and crumpets and fish and chips, taking a dump off the pier seems somehow out of place.
When in Rome...
Have you ever seen the toilets in Rome?
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I wonder if islanders subject to British influence wouldn't tend to pick up any "refinement" in toilet practices over 25 years.
After a daily regimen of God Save the Queen, tea and crumpets and fish and chips, taking a dump off the pier seems somehow out of place.
When in Rome...
Have you ever seen the toilets in Rome?
No, but I have seen the ones in Ephesus (http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/ephesus-public-toilets)!
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Lets just say that since the fall of the Roman Empire the plumbing has gone down hill :D - IMO
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BTW stereo typing colonial Britain or Britain in general is my job on this forum]
Sorry Chris, I didn't know...would you be open to a royalty arrangement of some sort (that's royalty in the purely compensatory sense of the word, nothing to do with Charles/Camilla etc)
Perhaps a Yorkshire pudding by Express Royal Mail for each related breach of protocol, going forward?
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If the depositor of our favorite gastrological remnant was a mercury-containing-freckle-cream user, would/could/should we reasonably expect a higher than background level of mercury in the artifact? I read somewhere that mercury absorbed by the body is processed by the liver and is typically detectable in fecal samples.
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If the depositor of our favorite gastrological remnant was a mercury-containing-freckle-cream user, would/could/should we reasonably expect a higher than background level of mercury in the artifact? I read somewhere that mercury absorbed by the body is processed by the liver and is typically detectable in fecal samples.
That's an interesting point Doug and one we should check.
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The Franklin Expedition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin%27s_lost_expedition) story has some theories on Lead and more importantly how you measure lead content in the body and exposure time to Lead. Make up your own mind but she'd have to be eating the stuff by the bucket full for her lead levels to be regarded as abnormal.
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True enough, Chris - but not literally so much needed to turn up.
Modern day cosmetic preservatives are turning up in body masses like tumors - and can be detected in urine (but not to worry - just because they are "there" doesn't mean they harm you or actually CAUSED the tumor, of course... ). This includes trace amounts.
Seems like this is worth looking at - but we might also find that the fecal matter came from someone with a high game-fish content diet as well, I suppose.
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Your friendly neighborhood toxicologist chiming in here ...
I have always associated mercury more with urinary excretion, as it has a well-known affinity for the kidneys. But I did some checking, and the ATSDR Toxicological Profile for mercury confirms that it can be excreted in fecal matter as well:
"ATSDR Toxicological Profile for Mercury, Chapter 2" (http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp46-c2.pdf)
See Section 2.3, Toxicokinetics, which starts on page 133 of the PDF file (the text itself is labeled page 161); see especially page 134/162. For those who want to read more, see also Section 2.3.4 starting on page 157/185.
It's less clear on how effective mercury would be at penetrating the skin, and whether someone who used it topically would excrete significant amounts. However, the above reference does describe a few case studies of toxic effects in people who used mercury-containing skin creams for long periods (see p. 129/157), suggesting that they did accumulate mercury.
If the area where the fecal matter was collected was suspected to have been used as a latrine, urinary or other material might be in the soil at that location. I recall a research project in the American West, studying a suspected campsite of the Lewis + Clark expedition. It was well documented that the expedition used mercury medicinally, and so the researchers tested the soil to see if they could find higher-than-usual levels of mercury.
In this case, the question would be not only whether this particular sample had mercury, but whether it was higher than that of any other islanders/visitors (control samples).
As for lead, I wasn't aware that AE had any sources of high lead exposure--if so, what were they?
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Excellent contribution here, Jennifer, thanks.
I didn't catch that Earhart was thought to have lead exposure, just the idea of mercury, perhaps. That said, aviation fuel is loaded with tetra-ethyl lead for anti-detonation ("anti-knock") - and was at that time, so far as I know.
Earhart was a bright lady - but maybe heavy metal exposure could explain something about a lapse or two where the radio, etc. were concerned... :P
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Whoops, I posted becasue for some reason I got Mercury and Lead mixed up in my mind. Interesting idea though is that lead in the AV fuel could hae got into her system. A recent study over here (no link) suggests a fall in crime since the removal of lead from petrol.
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So to look at this a bit more broadly, if the fecal matter were to be examined for traces of telling metals, etc., perhaps we should look beyond the bottle as a source of mercury and toward whether Earhart or Noonan might have left feces with traces of lead, as well, having been around Avgas with its attending lead content.
Leaded fuel was common then of course - not just in aviation fuel. I don't know how exposed islanders would have been - and it's already been noted that their toilet habits might discourage the notion of finding land-bound leavings such as this. Westerners were certainly exposed to fuel, however.
Aviators tend to be exposed by touch very frequently by draining sumps and handling fuel manually, such as was done on Earhart's trip for refueling, etc. Don't know how much 'touch' she actually had, but we do have pictures of her all over the airplane during ground ops.
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Whoops, I posted becasue for some reason I got Mercury and Lead mixed up in my mind. Interesting idea though is that lead in the AV fuel could hae got into her system. A recent study over here (no link) suggests a fall in crime since the removal of lead from petrol.
A recent BBC article (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27067615) (4/20/2014) describes the theoretical association between a falling crime rate and conversion to unleaded gasoline ("petrol").