TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Artifact Analysis => Topic started by: Chris Johnson on April 22, 2013, 02:59:34 AM

Title: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Chris Johnson on April 22, 2013, 02:59:34 AM
Found this on the BBC website and thought it may be of interest to Forum users to understand the history of canning (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21689069)
 The Norwich City survivours left canned food at their shelter and remains have been found at the seven site.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 22, 2013, 09:47:10 AM
The Norwich City survivours left canned food at their shelter and remains have been found at the seven site.
To be clear, we have a can from the Seven Site that probably once contained "roast mutton." We don't know where it came from.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 22, 2013, 01:52:38 PM
Correct, my poor wording as it could have come from anywhere.

Well...probably not anywhere.  The size and proportions of the can are quite unique and match the size and proportions of at least one brand of roast mutton that was produced in New Zealand - but we don't know when.  If we could find out when St. George's used this style of label it might give us a clue as to how and when the can arrived at the Seven Site.  For example, if it turned out that roast mutton was only sold in this style of can prior to 1932, then the most likely source of the can would be the 1929 Norwich City cache.  That would argue strongly for the can having been brought to the site by the castaway.  If, on the other hand, roast mutton was sold in this style can beginning in 1932, we can eliminate the NC cache as the source.  Let's see what we can find out.
The photos of the Seven Site can are from 1996.  It's now just rusty pieces.

Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Albert Durrell on April 22, 2013, 04:33:10 PM
St. George mutton roast can.  See http://www.tommyspackfillers.com/showitem.asp?itemRef=RL143
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 22, 2013, 06:07:37 PM
St. George mutton roast can.  See http://www.tommyspackfillers.com/showitem.asp?itemRef=RL143

There was no image on that page so I don't know if the design is the same as the label we have, but the 1914 date is interesting.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 22, 2013, 06:56:21 PM
Wait a minute. There's a thumbnail image at http://www.tommyspackfillers.com/ration-sub.asp?SubCat=1.  Looks like the same label we have, but of course we don't know what label was on the can at the Seven Site.  Roast mutton often had pieces of bone in it ("bone in for flavor") and we found several pieces of what has been identified as "small mammal bone, either goat or sheep" near the can.  We're quite sure there were never any goats or sheep on Niku.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Bruce Thomas on April 22, 2013, 07:23:55 PM
St. George mutton roast can.  See http://www.tommyspackfillers.com/showitem.asp?itemRef=RL143

There was no image on that page so I don't know if the design is the same as the label we have, but the 1914 date is interesting.

It's a rotating image, served up by Java.  It takes a little while to come up.  Here's snapshot of the page with the can's image.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 22, 2013, 07:35:22 PM
It's a rotating image, served up by Java.  It takes a little while to come up.  Here's snapshot of the page with the can's image.

Definitely the same label.  I wonder if the proportions of the can ever changed.  Is canned roast mutton still being sold (blechhh!)?
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Dan Swift on April 23, 2013, 10:23:58 AM
http://natlib.govt.nz/items/23159787

Could it have been Gear Meat Co. from NZ that produced similar meats in similar cans and labels circa 1890 - 1920?   
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 23, 2013, 10:45:47 AM
http://natlib.govt.nz/items/23159787

Could it have been Gear Meat Co. from NZ that produced similar meats in similar cans and labels circa 1890 - 1920?

That's an interesting website.  The labels tell us the proportions of the cans they went on.  So far we know that the size and style of can we found at the Seven Site was used for some New Zealand canned meat products up into the 1920s.  What did cans of roast mutton look like in the 1930s and '40s?
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Dan Swift on April 24, 2013, 07:15:13 AM
http://natlib.govt.nz/records/23185517?search%5Bpath%5D=items&search%5Btext%5D=St.+George+Roast+Mutton+label+

They also had this label for the 'tapered' can (top smaller than bottom) that they used.  Not sure, but wondering if they produced this one later.  Era is too broad (beginning in 1890's) but does list to 1940's.  But I believe that is just the search window.  So it's possible the tapered can followed the can you have?  Unfortunately, that is a question not an answer.   
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Matt Revington on April 24, 2013, 08:30:41 AM
Can the can itself be dated from the manufacturing process?  Early cans ( mid-19th century) sometimes used lead solder, (dependence on lead soldered cans was thought to cause lead poisoning during the Franklin Expedition and is thought to have played a role in its failure, its mentioned in the link in the first post on this thread).  Were there other changes in the can manufacturing process between 1890-1940 that could be detected in the can itself that could lead to a closer dating?
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 24, 2013, 09:57:32 AM
Can the can itself be dated from the manufacturing process?

Good question.  We still have the can. It's now just a pile of rusty pieces but I don't see any sign of solder (lead does not rust).  We might be able to jigsaw-puzzle it back together in a matrix of rubber cement but it would be quite a job.  Fun though.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Matt Revington on April 24, 2013, 10:32:38 AM
This article:
http://www.sha.org/CF_webservice/servePDFHTML.cfm?fileName=15-1-07.pdf
goes into some detail about the changes in cans over the years, for example the way the tops and bottoms were attached and the metal content seems to have evolved over the first half of the 20th century. 

Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Dan Swift on April 24, 2013, 11:41:10 AM
Matt, Great article...interesting reading.  Some interesting dates of certain developments. 
Such as the statement below.  I wonder if there is a way to test for that with the remains of the rusty can? 

"The major trend has been decreasing its weight through
techniques such as the cold rolling of steel,
which reduces thickness, and electrolytic tin
plating, introduced commercially in 1937,
which uses less tin (National Canners Association)"
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Matt Revington on April 24, 2013, 12:27:35 PM
Thanks Dan.  I do have a concern that dates some new canning development was implemented in the US or England may not relate well to when a mutton canning operation in New Zealand got around to changing their methods.  What would be useful, like in the case of the ointment pot, is a dated can from that period.  Is Irvine and Stephenson , who owned the St George label, still in business, do they have records/sample cans that go back to that period? 
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Dan Swift on April 24, 2013, 02:14:23 PM
Was hoping it was like 1937. 
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ted G Campbell on April 24, 2013, 07:42:43 PM
Ric,
Please tell us what you think it would cost to store all the AE artifacts in an enert atmosphere  i.e. so we don't experance futher degragation of tin cans, etc.

As this mission goes on, the earlier findings start to degrad and may become useless in their value in putting new discoveries to a test.

Very concerned,
Ted Campbell
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 24, 2013, 08:40:39 PM
Please tell us what you think it would cost to store all the AE artifacts in an enert atmosphere  i.e. so we don't experance futher degragation of tin cans, etc.

As this mission goes on, the earlier findings start to degrad and may become useless in their value in putting new discoveries to a test.

There are very few artifacts that are subject to any significant degradation.  The can would not have degraded to the extent it has if we had collected it when we first found it in 1996, but at that time we didn't understand the significance of the site.  We didn't collect the can until years later and by then it had broken down in Niku's severe environment.  Storing all of the artifacts in an inert atmosphere would be cumbersome and prohibitively expensive. 
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Matt Revington on April 26, 2013, 06:52:44 AM
Just makes it a bit more challenging.  Did the can shape and size change or did it remain the same?  Did they produce all the way through or stop?  If so when?

Who else made similar products?

What makes TIGHAR think its that one?

Are you asking why does TIGHAR think its St George Roast mutton?  Wasn't the label found with the can?

Every time I think of EA or FN eating  canned roast mutton that had been sitting tropical heat for 10 years I get a bit queasy.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 26, 2013, 08:01:33 AM
Are you asking why does TIGHAR think its St George Roast mutton?  Wasn't the label found with the can?

Good Lord no. All we found was the rusty old can and some small pieces of bone (identified as having come from a goat or sheep) nearby.  The distinctive dimensions and proportions of the can match the dimensions and proportions of the canned roast mutton label and we know that at least some canned roast mutton was sold "bone-in for flavor."  So it does look like someone had a can of "bone-in" roast mutton at the Seven Site. Question is, who?  Dating the can might help.

Every time I think of EA or FN eating  canned roast mutton that had been sitting tropical heat for 10 years I get a bit queasy.

Interesting point. The castaway died of something. Botulism?

Incidentally, Amelia Earhart's initials were (and still are) AE but lots of people reverse the letters because her name is pronounced Emilia Airhart.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Matt Revington on April 26, 2013, 10:43:58 AM

Every time I think of EA or FN eating  canned roast mutton that had been sitting tropical heat for 10 years I get a bit queasy.

Interesting point. The castaway died of something. Botulism?

Incidentally, Amelia Earhart's initials were (and still are) AE but lots of people reverse the letters because her name is pronounced Emilia Airhart.

I guess I was so nauseated by the thought of the mutton that I got confused.

This article from 1919, says that by that date  St George was using more modern canning techniques ( double seam closure instead of soldering) and was producing canned mutton. Of course nothing about the dimensions of the cans used etc

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=ODT19191120.2.93.55
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 26, 2013, 12:42:27 PM
So do the remains have evidence of soldering, double seam closure or another method?

Looks like double seam.  I'll post some scans when I have a minute.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Dave McDaniel on April 29, 2013, 06:33:47 AM
I hope they find this guy.

http://news.yahoo.com/pacific-searched-british-man-ailing-boat-083317042.html

What I found interesting was this Vets post in the comments section concerning mutton and its apparent effects.

"This reminds me of an incident in WW2. My ship was headed in after 6 months away from the U.S. Supply vessels were over taxed so provisions on ships ran very low. Headed home reduced the urgency for resupply so we were rationing everything. Then some F.U. on another ship got his foot caught in a line and was pulled overboard. We were diverted to the rescue. It wasn't the delay in getting home that hurt the worst. We didn't find the sailor and we even ran out of toilet paper and Australian Beef (mutton). Since the "Beef" was a huge cause of a need for toilet paper it did balance out some. Crewmen even hid comic books for their personal use and officers guarded their heads to prevent theft of their supplies. There was no supply of corn cobs. I wonder how many people will understand the corn cob reference and remember the red corn cobs with the white corn cob seal of approval."

Dave
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 29, 2013, 09:03:23 AM
It wasn't the delay in getting home that hurt the worst. We didn't find the sailor and we even ran out of toilet paper and Australian Beef (mutton).

My wife's father was also aboard a troop ship blessed with "Australian Beef."  To his dying day he wouldn't touch even a lamb chop.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Matt Revington on April 29, 2013, 10:50:38 AM
Just in case there is any doubt that tinned mutton would have been included in a ship's emergency supplies at the time here is part of the story of some Aussie sailors whose ship went down in the mid Pacific only a couple of years before the Norwich City ran aground

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19271003.2.104&srpos=1&e=-09-1927--11-1927--10--1----0amy+turner--
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19271005.2.29&srpos=3&e=-09-1927--11-1927--10--1----0mutton++epic--
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19271010.2.95&srpos=2&e=-09-1927--11-1927--10--1----0mutton++epic--

It was a hard life
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Steve Lee on April 30, 2013, 11:16:56 AM
Could the can be a Coast Guard throw-away? Ric mentioned that his wifes father ate mutton while in the military service. I found references saying that US Navy sailors ate canned mutton and didn't like it and had anickname for it. So maybe it was a Coast Guard item?

Whtwere the dimensions of the can--maybe we can find out if it matches canned goods the US servicemen at the Loran station might have eaten.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 30, 2013, 11:28:29 AM
Could the can be a Coast Guard throw-away?

Yes.

What were the dimensions of the can--maybe we can find out if it matches canned goods the US servicemen at the Loran station might have eaten.

As best we can determine it was 2 inches high with a diameter of 4.5 inches.

Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on April 30, 2013, 11:35:34 AM
Here are some more photos and notes from our earlier investigation of the can.  The arrows point to evidence that the can was opened by repeated, closely spaced punctures such as may have been made by a military P-38 type can opener.  Wikipedia says the P-38 was developed in 1942.  The Loran station on Gardner was built in 1944.  If the can was opened with a P-38 that argues strongly for it being of Coast Guard origin.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Jeff Lange on May 01, 2013, 05:44:14 AM
It was rather common for many jacknives of the time to have a can opener on one of the blades. Just a slightly curved hook with a pointed end, similar to the domestic ones without a wooden handle. My cub scout knife from the 1960's has one. So this could tie back to the remains of the knife.....
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 01, 2013, 06:51:35 AM
So this could tie back to the remains of the knife.....

The knife we found was a particular make and model - an "Easy-Open" bone handled, double-bladed jack knife made by the Imperial Cutlery Co., Providence, RI.

Two blades.  No can opener.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Matt Revington on May 01, 2013, 07:19:54 AM
From the two videos that Chris posted it looks like the P38 creates a pattern of indentations on the lid not on the rim of the can as in the photos Ric posted of the can in question.  It may depend on the type of can and the person doing the opening but based on the videos it does not look like a match to me.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 01, 2013, 08:16:06 AM
where in relation to other 'coastie' finds was the can?

The can was pretty much in the middle of the area we've defined as the Seven Site.  "Coastie finds" are mostly M-1 carbine shell casings and they're all over the site.  We haven't found anything that suggests that the Coasts ate anything at the site.  Everything we've found that is definitely Coastie-related seems to be associated with shooting (brass cartridges, bullets, shattered targets).
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 01, 2013, 08:21:28 AM
From the two videos that Chris posted it looks like the P38 creates a pattern of indentations on the lid not on the rim of the can as in the photos Ric posted of the can in question.  It may depend on the type of can and the person doing the opening but based on the videos it does not look like a match to me.

I agree.  It's been a long time since I opened a can of C rations with a P-38 (ah... the memories).  Those videos make it clear that a P-38 opens the lid much closer to the edge than we see on the artifact can.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 01, 2013, 08:48:02 AM
Could that be related to the shape of the can?  The 7 Site can is not round like the one in the YouTube clips.  Need an obong shaped can to try it on.

Say what?  The Seven Site is round.  See the photos I posted on April 30.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Matt Revington on May 01, 2013, 11:13:11 AM
This video of a guy opening a can with a pocket knife looks like it produces a pattern like that in the photo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDoLDyIEvk8
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Steve Lee on May 01, 2013, 11:26:22 AM
Could the can be a Coast Guard throw-away?

Yes.

What were the dimensions of the can--maybe we can find out if it matches canned goods the US servicemen at the Loran station might have eaten.

As best we can determine it was 2 inches high with a diameter of 4.5 inches.

FWIW,  it sounds like that can had a volume of 20 ounces. Look for 20 oz labels?
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 01, 2013, 11:37:01 AM
This video of a guy opening a can with a pocket knife looks like it produces a pattern like that in the photo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDoLDyIEvk8

Son of a gun!  You're right.  Now think about this.  What Coastie is going to go to all that trouble to open a can of roast mutton "in the field" when there are real can openers back at the station? If you're going to pack a lunch for your target shooting outing you're not going to bring canned goods.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Steve Lee on May 01, 2013, 11:39:50 AM
Correct, my poor wording as it could have come from anywhere.

Well...probably not anywhere.  The size and proportions of the can are quite unique and match the size and proportions of at least one brand of roast mutton that was produced in New Zealand - but we don't know when.  If we could find out when St. George's used this style of label it might give us a clue as to how and when the can arrived at the Seven Site.  For example, if it turned out that roast mutton was only sold in this style of can prior to 1932, then the most likely source of the can would be the 1929 Norwich City cache.  That would argue strongly for the can having been brought to the site by the castaway.  If, on the other hand, roast mutton was sold in this style can beginning in 1932, we can eliminate the NC cache as the source.  Let's see what we can find out.
The photos of the Seven Site can are from 1996.  It's now just rusty pieces.

Ric, The label you posted--is it 15 inches side-to-side (a 5 inch diameter can would have a 15.5 inch circumference, i.e. 3.14 x 5)? Looking at the ruler you showed for comparision it looks like it might be about 14 inches side-to-side. Does that label wrap all the way around the can?
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 01, 2013, 11:53:18 AM
Ric, The label you posted--is it 15 inches side-to-side (a 5 inch diameter can would have a 15.5 inch circumference, i.e. 3.14 x 5)? Looking at the ruler you showed for comparision it looks like it might be about 14 inches side-to-side. Does that label wrap all the way around the can?

This is interesting.  The label actually measures 2 inches wide and 14 inches long but that includes a 3/8ths inch blank (white) portion on one end that I assume is intended as overlap for gluing the ends together.  So it would appear that the label is intended for a can of the same height but a slighter smaller diameter than the can found at the Seven Site.  That may help date the can.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Greg Daspit on May 01, 2013, 12:46:14 PM
A label 14” long – 3/8” glue blank= 13-5/8”
A 13 5/8” circumference would have a 4 3/8” diameter assuming the 3/8” blank and no additional overlap.

A 5” diameter has a circumference of 15 11/16”
Assume a 3/8” overlap = 16 1/16" total label length for a 5” can.
Could a 16” long paper shrink to 14” over time?  If it got wet, paper may shrink (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-03/954120628.Ph.r.html) but from the picture it looks in good shape.
Where did the 14”  label posted come from? 
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 01, 2013, 12:50:29 PM
Where did the 14”  label posted come from?

Sent from a collector in Australia. Looks unused and undamaged.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 02, 2013, 05:22:31 AM
Possible other tinned food (http://tighar.org/wiki/Remnants_of_riveted_can)

Has there been any more information/thinking on this item?

No, but I was just thinking that it might be interesting to see what kinds and sizes of cans were used for the "2 cans ripe banana" listed in the Luke Field inventory.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Steve Lee on May 02, 2013, 11:30:53 AM
Looking at the video Matt posted, it looks to me like a sawtooth pattern is made in the can--a series of straight punctures connected in a zig zag pattern. So I'm not sure we've really nailed down how the can was opened. Chris mentioned a lever type can opener, and it would be interesting to do an experiment to see what kind of pattern you get from that. It was also mentioned that pocketknives often have a can opener and to me the pattern looks more like a pocketknife canopener. Ric mentioned that a part of a knife was found and he didn't think that knife had a can opener, but first of all I'm not sure how definite that is since he only found part of the knife. Also, the knife part he found may have nothing to do with the can he found. The knife could be the castaway's and the can could have been a coast guard discard that some coastie opened with his trusty pocketnife that had a can opener. Guys and pocketnives kind of go together after all, and if I were going to serve on a remote Pacific Island I think I might want to bring a knife with a couple of useful attachments like a can opener.

Anyway, I would suggest we all go out and cut open a few cans a few different ways and report back here. Maybe Matt's suggestion a previous post that even a P-38 could produce the observed pattern could be tested. P-38s are availble on eBay, as are lever-type can openers.

BTW: anybody find a label that fits the can Ric posted?
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Matt Revington on May 02, 2013, 12:55:16 PM
I agree Steve that the pattern isn't an unambiguous match to using a knife, some of the cuts/indentations look like the ones the knife made in the video and others might be more consistent with using a church key style opener or something else.  I think that having the lid cut a bit in from the can rim is unusual, most openers cut at the lid/rim junction.  My swiss army knife can opener cuts close to the can rim like the p38 did in the video that Chris posted.  You are right, we should try out different openers to see how they cut, especially if you have an unusual model that your grandfather gave you out in the garage.
Its not a slam dunk but it does seem more likely that a coastie would have his regulation can opener with him if he was bringing canned food to eat while a cast away would have to improvise.
I believe the knife blade found at the seven site could be reasonably closely matched to a pocket knife model described in the Luke Field inventory that didn't have a dedicated opener.

From the photo of the can are those fragments on the inside the can the remains of the cut out lid  or was the lid found at all?
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Brad Beeching on May 02, 2013, 03:46:06 PM
Also, to add a little more confusion... "P-38's" come in different sizes... the "P-38" that my grandpappy used in North Africa and Sicily in WWII was a little bigger than examples supplied in cases of "C" Rations issued in the early-mid 1970's. The two that I have in my backpack are pretty big, much bigger than even the 194? issue. In my humble opinion, I would not attribute the cutting pattern on the can fragment to a "P-38" or a knife, but rather to a can opener much like Chris has supplied. The tears in the can are much too regularly spaced and appear to be the same length of tear. The distance from the rim appears to be as consistant around the radius of the can as well. I do alot of backpacking and camping and to cut a can open that consistantly and uniformly with a knife is (for me), impossible. I think I would be comfortable in saying that I do not believe anyone else could either.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 02, 2013, 07:56:41 PM
The voice of experience.  Good observation Brad. 
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Al Leonard on May 07, 2013, 07:49:42 PM
There is a memo from Gallagher dated 2 January, 1941 (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Tarawa_Archives/1939_Co-op_Store/1939Co-opStore.html) reporting on the activities of the co-operative store during 1939.  Two interesting facts stated by Gallagher are that among the items store had in stock were 149 tins of beef, and that the goods for the store were purchased in Australia. I’ve attached screen shots of relevant portions of the memo. These two facts suggest to me that, the can found at the Seven Site might not have been a ‘Coast Guard throwaway’, but rather a “Co-op store Throwaway’ (see also this post (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1177.msg24636.html#msg24636) for more about stocking the co-op store).

Has anyone yet found a label that fits the can found at the Seven Site? Do we know of any products that were packed in cans of this dimension? Was this a ‘standard’ can size in Australia or the U.S.?

Finally, I note that several still-familiar U.S. soap brands were stocked in the store (see attached). I wonder if these were made in the U.S.A., or made in Australia by local subsidiaries.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Al Leonard on May 07, 2013, 09:52:50 PM
I don't see an appropriate thread to make this post (moderator please move to a better one), but the co-op store stocks included ten pairs of shoes (see attachment). I recall discussions about whether colonists wore shoes, and this suggests they did wear shoes of some sort.  But whether in 1939 (or later) the co-op store shoes had Cat's Paw soles, I dunno. I think I'd tend to believe it more likely to be something left behind by a US serviceman, Coast Guard or Navy, or possibly a British colonial official, if there is reason to think the Cat's Paw brand had international outlets for its products.

I wonder if more co-op store inventory lists are among the items Tighar collected in its last visit to the Kiribati National Archives; it would be interesting to see what sort of items were stocked (and I'm not talking only about shoes) especially when US ships and planes got involved in bringing supplies to Niku.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Al Leonard on May 08, 2013, 06:35:16 AM
One more piece of information: a November 8, 1942 diary entry indicates that the colonists were given food in exchange for their labor. Each working head of household received a tin of meat and a tin of salmon or sardines weekly (see attached). That 5 inch by 2 inch can at the Seven Site sounds like a family-sized tin to me.

So, all in all, it seems likely to me that the tin was a colonist discard and reinforces the notion that they were the source of other items found there.

-Al
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 08, 2013, 11:01:49 AM
I don't see an appropriate thread to make this post (moderator please move to a better one), but the co-op store stocks included ten pairs of shoes (see attachment). I recall discussions about whether colonists wore shoes, and this suggests they did wear shoes of some sort.

We have plenty of photos documenting that the colonists did not generally wear shoes.  However, for some activities, i.e. walking on the reef, shoes would be a necessity.

 
But whether in 1939 (or later) the co-op store shoes had Cat's Paw soles, I dunno. I think I'd tend to believe it more likely to be something left behind by a US serviceman, Coast Guard or Navy, or possibly a British colonial official, if there is reason to think the Cat's Paw brand had international outlets for its products.

Cat's Paw made replacement heels. It doesn't seem likely that presumably new shoes in the Co-Op Store would have replacement heels.  I agree that the shoe parts found at Aukeraime (opposite side of the island from the Seven Site) are probably U.S serviceman-related.

I wonder if more co-op store inventory lists are among the items Tighar collected in its last visit to the Kiribati National Archives; it would be interesting to see what sort of items were stocked (and I'm not talking only about shoes) especially when US ships and planes got involved in bringing supplies to Niku.

I don't recall seeing any further inventory lists.  The US ships and planes that brought supplies to Niku serviced the Loran station, not the British colonial village.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Ric Gillespie on May 08, 2013, 11:20:31 AM
One more piece of information: a November 8, 1942 diary entry indicates that the colonists were given food in exchange for their labor. Each working head of household received a tin of meat and a tin of salmon or sardines weekly (see attached). That 5 inch by 2 inch can at the Seven Site sounds like a family-sized tin to me.

So, all in all, it seems likely to me that the tin was a colonist discard and reinforces the notion that they were the source of other items found there.

Your logic escapes me.  The fact that the laborers were given a tin of meat each week makes the tins "family-sized" and somehow makes the single can found at the Seven Site one of those tins.  Although the colony supplies are known to have come from Australia, the can at the Seven Site somehow reinforces the notion (whose notion?) that a bunch of 1930s-vintage American objects were left there by colonists. 
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Al Leonard on May 08, 2013, 06:35:34 PM
I wonder if more co-op store inventory lists are among the items Tighar collected in its last visit to the Kiribati National Archives; it would be interesting to see what sort of items were stocked (and I'm not talking only about shoes) especially when US ships and planes got involved in bringing supplies to Niku.

I don't recall seeing any further inventory lists.  The US ships and planes that brought supplies to Niku serviced the Loran station, not the British colonial village.

Ric, that isn’t correct. Perhaps you haven’t yet read the post on the Americans at Niku, pre- Loran (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1177.msg24636.html#msg24636) thread which shows that according to the diary of island activities, U.S. PBYs were bringing supplies to the co-op store starting in 1942, well before the Loran station was built in the summer of ’44. At least once the USS Swan also unloaded supplies at Gardner.

That post provides several mentions in the Diary of U.S. PBYs landings at Gardner, including two that provided food:

5 October, 1942 : "an American plane arrived and dropped 1 mail bag for Gardner"
22 October, 1942 : "3 American aeroplane arrive here 2 at 9:30, + 1 at 10:00 am"
4 February, 1943 : "USA plane arrived and dropped 4 cases of meat for the co-op store"
7 February, 1943 : "A USS plane arrived at about 8 a.m. and dropped the food for Co-op store and ration."

Also, on 23 November 1942, the USS Swan arrived, bringing colonial officials and cargo for the co-op store.
 
Perhaps diaries for other Phoenix or Gilbert/Ellis colonies would shed more light on what kind of canned foods and other goods were available through co-op stores.
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Al Leonard on May 08, 2013, 10:40:38 PM
One more piece of information: a November 8, 1942 diary entry indicates that the colonists were given food in exchange for their labor. Each working head of household received a tin of meat and a tin of salmon or sardines weekly (see attached). That 5 inch by 2 inch can at the Seven Site sounds like a family-sized tin to me.

So, all in all, it seems likely to me that the tin was a colonist discard and reinforces the notion that they were the source of other items found there.

Your logic escapes me.  The fact that the laborers were given a tin of meat each week makes the tins "family-sized" and somehow makes the single can found at the Seven Site one of those tins.  Although the colony supplies are known to have come from Australia, the can at the Seven Site somehow reinforces the notion (whose notion?) that a bunch of 1930s-vintage American objects were left there by colonists.

Ric,

The important point in the last few posts I’ve made about the diary entries is that they tell us that the colonists had canned meat, and therefore that the notion that the can in question is a colonist discard, is worth serious consideration.

I feel that you are making a straw man argument in your response to my post. Since I feel you've mischaracterized what I've said, I'd like to clarify what I actually think.

-I called the can ‘family sized’ based on its size, not because the colonists received a can of meat per week. I was pointing out that the dimensions of the can indicate that it held more that a single serving. If you look at the diary entry discussing the weekly rations, you’ll see they mention ‘head of family’ and that additional ration items were provided to pregnant women. There seems to be an idea here in the diary that the food rations were intended for family consumption, whether or not that was how the colonists actually used them.

- I didn’t say that the size of the can ‘makes’ it a colonist discard. The existence of colonist work parties at the Seven Site, the reasonable expectation that they ate food while working there, the fact that the colonists had canned meat, all in all lead me to conclude that the best explanation is that the can is a colonist discard rather than a Coast Guard or castaway artifact. If you think a stronger case can be made for these two other alternatives, by all means, please do so. Keeping and open mind, objectively considering the evidence, being willing to change one's mind rather than clinging to a fixed notion, is what it's all about, isn't it?

-I didn’t say anything about “1930s- vintage American objects”, so I don’t know how you interpret my post as saying so. I did say that the can, which I think is best explained as a colonist artifact, reinforces the notion that some other items found at the Seven Site were of colonist origin. The items I was thinking of specifically were those Seven Site bird bones, which have been discussed on this forum and which Tom King discussed in a January post on his blog (http://ameliaearhartarchaeology.blogspot.com/). Tom King suggests that some birds were butchered by colonist work parties and taken home to the village, while others were butchered and eaten at the Seven Site -- but by the castaway, rather than by the colonists. It seems to me that the colonists might have eaten a few birds while working at the Seven Site, and since I think the can was a discard from a colonist meal, the can supports the notion that the bird bones are colonist meal discards too, rather than castaway meal discards.

So those are my thoughts on the colonists as the possible source of the Seven Site can. Forum readers will of course come to their own conclusions regarding the can.

BTW Ric, I am still not clear on whether we know of any cans that match the dimensions of the Sven Site can. At reply # 3 (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1171.msg24508.html#msg24508) on this thread you said  "The size and proportions of the can are quite unique and match the size and proportions of at least one brand of roast mutton that was produced in New Zealand";  My impression is that the St. George Mutton label shown as an attachment to that post is too small to fit the Seven Site Can. Do you know of a can or label that does actually matches the Seven Site can?


Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Gloria Walker Burger on June 11, 2013, 04:22:29 PM
One of the things AE may have had on her final flight was an ice pick. She had one on previous flights to punch a hole in her tin of tomato juice to add a straw for easy drinking. The ridges in the top of the 7 sight can look like they could have been caused by repeated hole punches by an ice pick. The ridges are rounded, not flat.

In the Purdue Archives, in Amelia Earhart's Scrapbook 14, in one of the newspaper articles (on 3-13-35) when interviewing AE it says, "The Earhart way of drinking tomato juice in the air is this: 'With an ice-pick you make a hole in the top." Bop, her hand went down. "You fit a straw into the hole and there you are. You didn't spill a drop.' "
Title: Re: A History of Tinned Food
Post by: Paul Chattey on July 15, 2013, 01:48:53 PM
The P38 openers I'm familiar with cut the metal toward the inside of the can while the more common civilian can openers and (in my experience) knives cut the can's edges up and toward the outside.  The photos appear (to me) to show the metal edges pointing inward and indicate a P38 type.  Thoughts?