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Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Alternate Lines of Inquiry => Topic started by: Greg Daspit on November 14, 2012, 08:08:10 AM

Title: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Greg Daspit on November 14, 2012, 08:08:10 AM
Attached is a still from the 2012 Black and White Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvHSWxmqIwk) of the Debris Field
A pdf is also attached with annotations for suspected objects.
I labeled the objects based on the post number and gave each object a letter. For example "1A" is object A in post 1. It may help to keep track of things.

The interesting area is at the bottom mostly to the right.

I don't know what these objects are but am pretty sure 1 A and 1B are man made. See attached PDF
1A- looks like a radio with dials
1B- possible gas tank
1C- possible skin /section of plane which may have protected the tank from being covered up by a landslide, or coral

Edit: Added a crop with auto adjust. The radio looking object is left of the tank looking object
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video
Post by: Greg Daspit on November 20, 2012, 03:56:39 PM
Attached are stills from the Black and White video of the Debris field.
edit: added pdf with annotations of objects from "bigscreen" image posted earlier
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Greg Daspit on November 20, 2012, 10:35:03 PM
From the BW4 ac image in post 2, cropped and enlarged.
This object is sticking straight up near the center about 1/3 from bottom in the original image.
It looks like a small wheel on a rod. In the image coral seems to be growing like vines around the rod.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Ron Jensen on December 02, 2012, 12:30:11 AM
I was thinking a section of tire casing for what you labeled "Possible Fender," but I think you may be right, that does look like a main gear fender. However, the first thing that jumped out at me when I watched the hires video was what you labeled 1B. It looks like a rim to me, there may still be bits of rubber clinging along the edges, and it scales nicely to the "Possible Fender" as well.

Ron
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Greg Daspit on December 02, 2012, 10:40:58 AM
I was thinking a section of tire casing for what you labeled "Possible Fender," but I think you may be right, that does look like a main gear fender. However, the first thing that jumped out at me when I watched the hires video was what you labeled 1B. It looks like a rim to me, there may still be bits of rubber clinging along the edges, and it scales nicely to the "Possible Fender" as well.

Ron

Hi Ron and welcome,
See the Research Bulletin on the Debris Field (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/63_DebrisField/63_DebrisField.htm). It has more on the possible fender Tighar is looking at. I'm not sure it is a fender myself. Attached is a picture of a landing gear with wheel hub/rim?
I gave the objects names in my post but that is just what the objects look like to me. The "radio" looking thing may be guide wheels for retracting something instead of dials and the "tank" may be internal structure or sand. They look man made to me.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Will Hatchell on December 02, 2012, 11:07:16 AM
Quote
Attached is a picture of a landing gear with wheel hub/rim

Greg-

Can you please identify that landing gear (fork)? Was wondering what crash site it's from. It's a nice close-up view of one! Kind thanks

Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Greg Daspit on December 02, 2012, 11:24:55 AM
Quote
Attached is a picture of a landing gear with wheel hub/rim

Greg-

Can you please identify that landing gear (fork)? Was wondering what crash site it's from. It's a nice close-up view of one! Kind thanks

It is from the Kellogg (http://tighar.org/Contract_Services/Kellogg/Kellogg05.html) crash. There are a couple of crash sites that Tighar investigated with good pictures that may help when looking at video. Another is the Gillam crash site (http://tighar.org/Contract_Services/Gillam/Gillam01.html).

edit: note the two tabs which may be for attaching the fender visible on the fork
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Will Hatchell on December 02, 2012, 05:55:52 PM
Quote
It is from the Kellog crash. There are a couple of crash sites that Tighar investigated with good pictures that may help when looking at video. Another is the Gillam crash site.

edit: note the two tabs which may be for attaching the fender visible on the fork

I thank you kindly, Greg!  :)

Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: richie conroy on December 04, 2012, 03:24:57 PM
Hi All

Not sure what to make of this perfectly circle object, It stand's out because there is no other's like it in area

Would like second opinion  :)
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Will Hatchell on December 04, 2012, 03:50:25 PM
Quote
Not sure what to make of this perfectly circle object, It stand's out because there is no other's like it in area

Would like second opinion

Richie, to my untrained eye, I've got to say that it certainly looks like a metal wheel rim more than anything else, and then there is that fork-like object immediately to its right side; lots of man-made  :-\ objects in that view, for example, in the lower left corner of the close-up view you include, there is a suspicious looking rectangular object. I'm sorry I can't offer anything further to help you.

Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: richie conroy on December 04, 2012, 04:38:10 PM
Hi Will

At the minute we can only speculate what some images are of, Am awaiting to know how Tim gets on with Jeff Glickman tomorrow.

While am 100% certain there is aircraft debris in 2010 video, There are other's with better suited backgrounds in photo interpretation than my self, And i believe it will probably be a long time from now, that the new debris field will lead to the area in 2010 video.

However i am hopeful of a more easier approach, I have been searching internet for dive's that have taken place on the reef at Niku an here is one image with object highlighted with red line round it, This is a dive on western reef face

No doubt it's probably a large rock but due to some of it's curves i feel it's worth getting second opinion
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Dan Kelly on December 04, 2012, 04:43:11 PM

No doubt it's probably a large rock but due to some of it's curves i feel it's worth getting second opinion

Second opinion - large rock.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Will Hatchell on December 04, 2012, 04:51:54 PM
Quote
No doubt it's probably a large rock but due to some of it's curves i feel it's worth getting second opinion

You both may be correct, however, what nags me is: if it is a rock, it's a very unnatural looking chunk of coral rock!  :-\
Very unnatural looking.

Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: richie conroy on December 04, 2012, 04:55:59 PM
Thanks Dan

It always good to get second opinion, So may i ask your opinion on this image which is also from Pipa website

Object circled in red



Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Tim Mellon on December 04, 2012, 05:25:22 PM
Am awaiting to know how Tim gets on with Jeff Glickman tomorrow.


Richie, sorry but meeting is not for a week yet: 11th in Seattle.

Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: richie conroy on December 04, 2012, 05:48:24 PM
Am awaiting to know how Tim gets on with Jeff Glickman tomorrow.


Richie, sorry but meeting is not for a week yet: 11th in Seattle.

Hi Tim

My apologies as i thought it was the 5th

No worries
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Dan Kelly on December 04, 2012, 06:58:10 PM
Thanks Dan

It always good to get second opinion, So may i ask your opinion on this image which is also from Pipa website

Object circled in red

Coral head with some seaweed.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Greg Daspit on December 07, 2012, 05:00:43 PM
See pdf for comparisons of the fender connection and an enlargement of a still from the Video where the tab or “clip" shows up well.  If the "clip" is to attach the fender to the strut, it appears to be in the wrong place on this object based on the images from the Purdue Archives (http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=all&CISOBOX1=lockheed&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOOP2=all&CISOBOX2=Lockheed+Electra&CISOFIELD2=subjec&CISOROOT=all&t=s&CISOSTART=1,101). Also there is a lack of curvature in the object in one direction and the original fender appears to be a two piece design.
Could modifications have been made to the fender after the Luke Field crash?  Damage after landing that straightened it? Possible, but this is why I don’t think the object is the fender. It looks manmade though.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: John Joseph Barrett on December 08, 2012, 07:23:44 AM
That certainly does look like a tab for mounting a fender or similar object. My opinion though, it looks like the tab at the bottom rear of the fender where the bracing strut would attach. That doesn't show up well in the comparison photo. I'm wondering, given the width of the fender to cover the airwheel tire, were there two stuts supporting the rear of the fender, one to either side? Or, was it like a bicycle fender with a long u-shaped brace which rivets to the fender in the middle? Given how wide these fenders were I would think two separate struts is probably more likely. If that is the case it looks like it could be a rear mounting tab to me.  LTM  -John
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Greg Daspit on December 08, 2012, 09:50:41 AM
That certainly does look like a tab for mounting a fender or similar object. My opinion though, it looks like the tab at the bottom rear of the fender where the bracing strut would attach. That doesn't show up well in the comparison photo. I'm wondering, given the width of the fender to cover the airwheel tire, were there two stuts supporting the rear of the fender, one to either side? Or, was it like a bicycle fender with a long u-shaped brace which rivets to the fender in the middle? Given how wide these fenders were I would think two separate struts is probably more likely. If that is the case it looks like it could be a rear mounting tab to me.  LTM  -John

The location of the tab as it relates to a rear fender strut seems to be close. Attached is a picture of how the 2 fender struts attach as seen from behind. I don't see a tab on the outside. The lack of a curve in one direction still concerns me. The fender should have a double curve but the object seems flattened in one direction and not the other.

I think just looking at the shape and size (assumed by me) the shape fits more the leading edge of the wing between the fuselage and engine. The object also seems thick like it is hollow, maybe a deicing/ anti-icing feature where hot air from the engine is injected. Just speculating.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Greg Daspit on December 31, 2012, 02:20:56 PM
Attached are more stills taken from the 2012 B&W Video that may show manmade objects.
The PDF attached has annotations, shows full images and has more possible manmade objects.

Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Greg Daspit on January 01, 2013, 11:07:36 AM
From 1:05 of the 2012 B&W Debris Field Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvHSWxmqIwk).
At right, center, what looks like a small tank of some kind. Shape looks formed to fit in a custom space. Note what looks like a fuel filler port at the upper left of the object.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Greg Daspit on January 02, 2013, 05:40:10 PM
This PDF has a still that may show another possible Fuel Filler neck. It is from the 2012 BW video of the Debris Field. I was looking at it for a while and thought I might post it now since this component was posted as a possibility in reply 303 of the Summary of Debris from 2010 video thread (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1038.300.html) .
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Jimmie Tyler on January 05, 2013, 09:04:37 AM
  Hello all, was just having a look at a still shot of the 2012 B&W footage,(debris field). I noticed some shapes and angles that poked out at me, when I rotated the picture a bit. Of course it probably is all NATURAL....  :o But never the less, It is fun straining the eyes now and then. I would never proclaim what I see here is man made, perhaps just a slight possibility. I have highlighted the shapes and angles in yellow.. 
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Tim Mellon on January 05, 2013, 09:43:48 AM
Is there a time stamp, Jim?
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Jimmie Tyler on January 05, 2013, 10:48:53 AM
 Hello Mr. Mellon, I downloaded that particular picture from reply #21 within this thread, (just above).   ::)  Authored by Mr. Daspit. It is a still shot at the 1:05 mark in the  2012 B&W Debris Field Video. I simply turned the picture counter clockwise twice on my pc's picture viewing program. It is essentially just another view of the debris field.   
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Greg Daspit on January 05, 2013, 11:25:07 AM
I have highlighted the shapes and angles in yellow..

Jimmie,
The area you highlighted with curved lines , but as seen at 1:19, has what I think looks like a screw with some kind of wingnut, tube, post, and a small hose clamp, among other small an made looking objects in this area. (again these are just what they look like to me). The curve line on your image would be to the right of the highlighted objects in this image, and this image is not rotated
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Jimmie Tyler on January 05, 2013, 12:15:56 PM
I have highlighted the shapes and angles in yellow..

Jimmie,
The area you highlighted with curved lines , but as seen at 1:19, has what I think looks like a screw with some kind of wingnut, tube, post, and a small hose clamp, among other small an made looking objects in this area. (again these are just what they look like to me). The curve line on your image would be to the right of the highlighted objects in this image, and this image is not rotated

  I will have to quote my late Grandmother on this Mr. Daspit, " Lord Knows." I would think that such small items would be unrecognizable, and highly corroded after nearly 76 years in salt water. It is interesting to see the debris field in the rotated picture I posted.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Randy Conrad on January 06, 2013, 03:19:54 PM
Greg...I saw your still from the three photos submitted. As I sat here the other night I pondered on this picture and I want your guys input on if you agree what I think it is. Anyway, I'll show your picture and then the other. Tell me if I'm seeing the tail part of the Electra?
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Randy Conrad on January 10, 2013, 04:08:44 PM
Ric or Jeff Glickman...In correlation with my last set of pictures that I posted in this topic...I was wondering if you have a more clear image of H.png. From the image that Greg posted, it appears to be that of the tail of the Electra . When I took the image of the Electra and turned the picture upside down, and moved it closer to the other image...it appears to be a perfect match! Anyway, give me a heads up!!! Thanks!!!!
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Tim Mellon on January 10, 2013, 04:54:13 PM
it appears to be a perfect match!

IMHO, Randy, the curve is too much of a perfect semicircle. The leading edge of the Electra tail cuts in more towards the top. Also, I don't see a hinge line between the fixed and movable parts, nor any sign of a trim tab.

Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Randy Conrad on January 10, 2013, 08:30:48 PM
Tim, are you taking into consideration that the bottom picture I have of the electra is actually turned upside down. If you took this picture after turning the entire plane upside down and then taking the tail part and flipping it from left to right...the match will appear like that in the first picture Greg submitted!!!!
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Ric Gillespie on January 12, 2013, 09:09:22 AM
This horse is dead and will not benefit from further flogging.  This and other topics discussing whether various shapes in the underwater video are or are not encrusted objects of interest have run their course.  Both sides have had more than adequate opportunity to state their case and flogging the subject further will not change anyone's mind.  We'll give the horse a decent burial by locking "Summary of Debris from 2010," "2010 Black and White Video of the Debris Field," and "Possible Rope video."  I'll leave "Underwater Airplane Parts" open but only as a discussion of what known underwater airplane parts look like in contexts other than Nikumaroro.  I'll remove new topics that attempt to revive discussions of objects seen in 2010 and 2012 underwater video unless and until Jeff Glickman advises me that he has found something worth discussing.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: JNev on July 28, 2014, 11:53:35 AM
This topic has been re-opened.  Enjoy.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Monty Fowler on January 05, 2015, 06:58:13 PM
Beware of apophenia.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: John B. Shattuck on January 06, 2015, 08:00:18 AM
Okay, got me... I looked it up:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

"apophenia /æpɵˈfiːniə/ is the experience of seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.
 
The term is attributed to Klaus Conrad[1] by Peter Brugger,[2] who defined it as the "unmotivated seeing of connections" accompanied by a "specific experience of an abnormal meaningfulness", but it has come to represent the human tendency to seek patterns in random information in general, such as with gambling and paranormal phenomena.[3]"

Cheers;

JB
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Bob Smith on March 22, 2015, 07:09:32 PM
I  had an idea that maybe to take off some of the strain of looking for objects, and as Marty and others have expressed, basically feeling obligated to find something directly related to the electra or the parts, we could just label items as related or not related and move on. There are obviously more things in the pictures than airplane parts. If we could sort of brush aside the dirt, so to speak, it would be easier to find the gold nuggets. Some things are easier to identify than others based on our own research and experience with the item, but if it doesn't exactly fit the definition of what we think we should find, our mind tries to reconfigure it until it seems to look right. Maybe if we could put things in two piles, a) really good match, and, b) really not related to earhart, we could push aside the b) things and concentrate on the a) pile. As an example, the Bevington object, the glass jars and mirror parts seem like good a)s. Many items in the debris field video may be identifiable rubber, gears or wheel rims, but the electra only had two main wheels, and most of these items would go in the b) pile, at least until proven otherwise.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field (landing craft ramp)
Post by: Bob Smith on March 22, 2015, 07:51:13 PM
what looks like a landing craft ramp in the video of identified object would be a b) as would  the (maybe) track vehicle engine in video of debris field (laying on its back near end of video) This  picture is a continental R-975 used inM4 tanks and M7 Priest SPGs  and looks similar to Pratt & Whitney 985's and 1340's but a land based version with vanes for better cooling without a propellor.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Bob Smith on March 23, 2015, 05:22:10 PM
This should probably go with the object identified  video. I am not speculating anymore, just putting these out there for anyone to use as  you see fit! I have more.. this is of an amunition skid similar to the one above behind the tank. I don't know what typeof tank is shown.
Title: Re: 2012 Black and White Video of the Debris Field
Post by: Greg Daspit on March 24, 2015, 11:02:50 AM
I think I have a better understanding of why this thread is in “alternate lines of inquiry” now, even though it has something in the video that will be investigated in Niku VIII.
Some of the things I see as possibly “related”, at least to aviation,  are the little wheels that could be control cable pulleys. When Mr. Glickman first identified the “debris field” in this video, one of the objects pointed to was a possible pulley.  I see at least 3 other objects that might be pulleys. Of course these objects could be something else that is not related to aviation and some images could be coral playing tricks. (“beware of apophenia”). However, if there are multiple pulleys there, they could be part of a control cable system and aviation related. The best way to find out is to get a closer look.  (RE: plan for Niku VIII).