TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Ric Gillespie on July 09, 2016, 09:26:41 AM
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There's an inconsistency in the famous film of Earhart's final takeoff. It only took me twenty years or so to notice it but once you know what to look for it's glaring. Can you spot it?
Hint: Don't worry about the taxi and takeoff itself. It's before that.
https://youtu.be/ntkOyDanuRw
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Noonan has on a white shirt in first few seconds, then a darker one. Looks like 2 different time frames for film. Arriving and departing?
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Noonan has on a white shirt in first few seconds, then a darker one. Looks like 2 different time frames for film. Arriving and departing?
You're right, but for the wrong reason. That's not Noonan in the first few frames.
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Who was it Ric?
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Who was it Ric?
I don't know, but it's not Fred. He has a mustache.
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OK, how about shadows having different angle?
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Do you mean the two different sequences of Fred and Amelia climbing onto the wing, and into the cockpit? I had to watch several times to be sure that they're different.
Also noticed that in the first sequence, both Fred and Amelia are holding some papers in their left hands.
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Do you mean the two different sequences of Fred and Amelia climbing onto the wing, and into the cockpit? I had to watch several times to be sure that they're different.
Also noticed that in the first sequence, both Fred and Amelia are holding some papers in their left hands.
Yes, there are two different sequences but there is something that tells us they were not filmed on the same day - and it's not subtle.
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I'm probably not on the right track, but at :03 seconds into the film (1st sequence), the side of the plane is well illuminated by sunlight. At :14 seconds (2nd sequence), it's not.
Shadows are visible in the 1st sequence but not the 2nd.
Am I still missing the obvious?
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Am I still missing the obvious?
Yep. Don't feel bad. I missed it for years.
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At the beginning (:05-:06), no hangar is seen in front of the nose of the plane. Later (:13-:15) there's a hangar in front of the plane.
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At the beginning (:05-:06), no hangar is seen in front of the nose of the plane. Later (:13-:15) there's a hangar in front of the plane.
Yes, the airplane is in a different location for the second boarding sequence but there's something that strongly suggests the two boarding sequences were filmed on different days.
Spoiler Alert: The Facebook crowd figured it out but I gave them a big hint. You guys are better than that. If you go there and get the answer don't spoil the fun for the other Forum Folk.
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Ah, looks like Amelia changed her shirt (presumably after having spent the night somewhere).
In the first sequence, her short sleeves end just above the elbow. In the second sequence, she has long sleeves down to her wrists.
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Ah, looks like Amelia changed her shirt (presumably after having spent the night somewhere).
In the first sequence, her short sleeves end just above the elbow. In the second sequence, she has long sleeves down to her wrists.
BINGO! Amelia never wears the same shirt two days in a row. That short-sleeved dark shirt with white piping she's wearing in the first boarding sequence is the shirt she was wearing on July 1st when they made the local test flight. The film up until 0:09 was taken on July 1st. I suspect the scene with the locals standing in front of the plane was also taken on the 1st because, in the second boarding sequence (long sleeves), the plane seems to be parked close to the hangar. I think the footage from 0.12 to the end was taken on July 2nd.
Note that in the second boarding sequence the engines are running. That seems strange to me. Why would she start the engines, leave the airplane, then re-enter the plane? She wants to conserve fuel. She needs to warm the oil before takeoff but there's plenty of time to do that during takeoff and pre-takeoff checks. Did somebody else start the engines for her?
I've stood on the wing of the Pensacola sort-of-replica that has the same cockpit hatch arrangement as NR16020. Climbing into that cockpit via the hatch is no mean feat. You're about six feet off the ground, standing very close to the leading edge of the wing and swinging your leg up into that hole. I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it with the prop turning about 3.5 feet away. Crazy.
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The film is a series of scene's spliced together. I wonder what happened to the sections not used? Trashed? Stuck away in someone's desk or filing cabinet?
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The film is a series of scene's spliced together. I wonder what happened to the sections not used? Trashed? Stuck away in someone's desk or filing cabinet?
The classic "cutting room floor." The story behind the film is truly bizarre. The film was allegedly shot in 16mm by someone named Sid Marshall (all we know about him is his name). Somehow the 99s in Oklahoma City ended up with a copy. 'Long about 1987, T.C. "Buddy" Brennan talked somebody at the EAA into producing a film to go along with his book "Witness To The Execution" (Renaissance House, 1988). The film included the home video interviews Brennan had shot with the islanders who were, of course, witnesses to Earhart's execution by the Japanese. To make the film more interesting, the EAA asked the 99s to loan them their copy of the Last Takeoff film. The EAA made an analog video (VHS) dub of the 99s 16mm film and included it in the Witness To The Execution film. (Here's where it gets good.) Instead of returning the 16mm print to Oklahoma City the EAA gave it to a former president of the 99s who lived near Oshkosh. She assured them she would return it to Oke City. She didn't. She kept it along with other memorabilia she had forgotten to return to the 99s. When she died, her son, the executor of her estate, auctioned off all her stuff out of resentment for the attention his mother paid to the 99s and not to him. The EAA never knew about it until the 99s inquired about the whereabouts of their film. By then the deed was done.
EAA gave TIGHAR a copy of the VHS dub at my request with permission to use it as we choose as long as we don't monetize it. I had it digitized and put it up on our Youtube channel. Everyone, including me, has always assumed it was "as advertised." Makes ya wonder what else we're missing that has been staring us in the face.
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I've stood on the wing of the Pensacola sort-of-replica that has the same cockpit hatch arrangement as NR16020. Climbing into that cockpit via the hatch is no mean feat.
Is that the correct sized prop on the NMNA Electra? It looks awfully short, unless the perspective is throwing things off.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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Is that the correct sized prop on the NMNA Electra? It looks awfully short, unless the perspective is throwing things off.
The NMNA Electra is a 10A. They aborted the rebuild as an NR16020 replica before they hung the big engines.
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Ran across this info tonight on Syd Marshall!
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/51274550
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Wow! As Ric and others have said before, it is truly amazing what things can turn up over seventy years after the events of 1937. Great job Randy. Now all we need is for someone in Australia to track down the original film at the network, or maybe with Syd Marshall's family. Wouldn't it be great to see what else Syd's camera recorded in July of 1937?
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Ran across this info tonight on Syd Marshall.
Good work Randy!
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Wow! As Ric and others have said before, it is truly amazing what things can turn up over seventy years after the events of 1937.
We know of a LOT of good, primary source material out there - film, photos, letters, documents- that is not accessible to researchers because the owners want exorbitant amounts of money for it or refuse to share it at any price. Extremely frustrating. It's tempting to name names and publicly shame them, but it would probably only further entrench them or drive the prices higher.
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Who was it Ric?
I don't know, but it's not Fred. He has a mustache.
Might the man in the white shirt be the same fellow in this photo, labeled 'Arrival at Lae'?
https://tighar.org/wiki/File:15ArrvlChater.jpg (https://tighar.org/wiki/File:15ArrvlChater.jpg)
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Might the man in the white shirt be the same fellow in this photo, labeled 'Arrival at Lae'.
No. That's Eric Chater and his wife. Chater was the manager at Guinea Airways. He was killed a year later when he walked into a turning prop.
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This is from the Old Forum Archives:https://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Forum_Archives/200009.txt (https://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Forum_Archives/200009.txt)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 10:28:04 EDT
From: Cam Warren
Subject: Re: Takeoff film
Some years ago Joe Gervais tracked down Sid Marshall in
Australia, who shot the original footage. Joe said the film was
in very bad shape, patched together with Scotch tape, and broke
more than once when run through the projector. I don't recall
if the 99's actually got the original, but - as you say - it
turned up missing after being borrowed by someone. The home
splicing job likely accounts for the out-of-sequence scenes.
Cam Warren
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From Ric
What scenes do you think are out of sequence? [End of excerpt from Old Forum]
So far that is all I have found in the Forum.
At first I was excited by the thought of what might have been left on the cutting room floor. But on reflection my hunch right now is that Syd Marshall himself put together all of his AE footage, pretty much in chronological order. What he left out would have been what he considered non-AE footage, which might of course have some interest for us, but probably not too much, as far as AE is concerned.
Marshall did assert in that 1970 interview for the Australian Women's Weekly (kudos to Randy Conrad for that link!) that he considered his film to be history belonging to the Australian people, not to be sold to the highest bidder. In light of that it wd be of interest to learn where it wound up after his death in May 1975, and how well it is being preserved or even restored.
I will add a couple of footnotes on Marshall in a separate post.
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At the time he filmed AE, Sidney David Marshall was already well known in his native Australia for having in 1934 made an historic first flight directly across the Coral Sea, 400 miles from Port Moresby in Papua New Guinea to Cooktown in Queensland Australia. He piloted a small single-engine monoplane, a Westland Widgeon that he had bought from his employer in Lae, Guinea Airways.
Not long after filming Earhart’s final takeoff the 35-year-old aviator went back to Australia to start his own business, Marshall Airways. He was eventually awarded the MBE for his achievements.
Over the years he acquired a collection of older aircraft, near the airport in Bankstown, a Sydney suburb, including a DC-2 and an Electra 10B, pictured here:
http://www.secretsofasydneypast.com/2008/05/marshall-airways-lockheed-electra.html (http://www.secretsofasydneypast.com/2008/05/marshall-airways-lockheed-electra.html)
http://www.secretsofasydneypast.com/2008/05/dc2-sid-marshall-collection-bankstown.html (http://www.secretsofasydneypast.com/2008/05/dc2-sid-marshall-collection-bankstown.html)
Marshall died on May 7 1975, at age 72, in Georges Hall, near the Bankstown airport.
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/5865537/sid_marshall_death_notice/ (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/5865537/sid_marshall_death_notice/)
One admirer of Marshall paid tribute to his career in aviation, on the date of his burial, by flying a Tiger Moth biplane under the Sydney Harbour Bridge. The authorities were not pleased with his violation of the Air Navigation Act, and he lost his appeal in court a year later. https://www.newspapers.com/clip/5865500/stunt_flight_tribute_to_syd_marshall/ (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/5865500/stunt_flight_tribute_to_syd_marshall/)
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/5862014/syd_marshall_burial_12_may_1975/ (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/5862014/syd_marshall_burial_12_may_1975/)
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...his employer in Lae, Guinea Airways.
That explains what he was doing in Lae.
...and an Electra 10A, pictured here:
No registration letters visible but that's VH-UZO, c/n 1107 delivered to Ansett Airways on July 8, 1937 and last known (1978) to be on exhibit at the Marshall Airways Museum, in Bankstown, NSW as VH-ASM (note the "ASM" on the tail of the airplane in the photo). Today there is no Marshall Airways Museum listed but there is an Australian Aviation Museum (http://australianaviationmuseum.com.au/) in Bankstown. No Electra listed in the collection.
I have a vague recollection of hearing about an Aussie Electra being purchased from a museum for rebuild to airworthy condition.
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Is it possible Ric and Herbert that Sid's film is stored
in the archives at this museum today as we speak?
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Good thought, Randy. I have sent an inquiry to the Museum, by email.
Here is the reply I just received from the Australian Aviation Museum. So far it seems that Sid Marshall's wish that his film be preserved as history belonging to the Australian people has not been fulfilled...
aviationmuseum@bigpond.com
12:43 AM July 20, 2016
Hi Bill,
The museum does not have a copy of the 1937 film. Our chief librarian viewed the film some years ago, but the museum never acquired a copy.
When Sid Marshall died, his business partner Jack Davis or Davies took over the business. Jack is now in poor health, reportedly also with dymentia. It is reported that his wife has many of the business records etc, but is not happy to handle enquiries.
It may be that the national film archives has a copy of the film you are looking for.
Regards
Mike McGree
Museum Coordinator, Australian Aviation Museum
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Sid Marshall is reported to have loaned his film to the Australian Broadcasting Commission (now Corporation), presumably for the purpose of their making a copy of it. See the August 1970 Australian Women's Weekly article that Randy found: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/51274550 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/51274550)
So I have emailed the ABC archives dept, to inquire further, & will post any response here.
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Happy Amelia Earhart Day, fellow TIGHARS!
It occurs to me that we learn something else from Ric’s discovery that the first of the two entries by AE and FN into the Electra cockpit that are shown in Marshall’s film must have occurred on July 1, and must have been for the test flight on that date. Namely, we learn that AE chose to have FN accompany her on that test flight, the main purpose of which was to check out her radio-direction-finding (RDF) capability, on which their lives would depend as they approached Howland Island. But for that purpose and on that short-range test flight, she did not need a navigator. She needed a radio technician, to learn why the RDF was not working for her.
A radio technician might have been able to point out to her that the problem was something as simple as failing to turn off the AVC switch on the receiver. That was a step that was not needed with either of the two previous RDF set-ups, because they both had a dedicated RDF receiver. But for the second attempt her overhead loop direction-finding antenna was connected to the original WE receiver. That receiver had an Automatic Volume Control (AVC) switch, the normal setting for which was ‘On,’ for normal communications. But that AVC circuit would tend to defeat any attempt to find a minimum by rotating the overhead loop antenna. So that switch must be set to ‘Off’ for direction finding to succeed, with the equipment she was depending on.
Do we have any evidence to support this hypothesis?
It is documented that AE’s attempt at direction finding in Lae failed on July 1, with FN in the co-pilot’s seat, and not any radio expert, as we see in Marshall’s film. AE explained away this failure as due to her plane’s being too close to the signal source for a minimum to be found. But it is also documented that in late May the Pan Am radio technician in Miami had been able to get a minimum on the local commercial station while the plane was on the ground at the airport. (That station was probably WQAM, 1,000 watts power at 560 kilocycles). In that successful ground test in Miami, the plane was probably as close to the signal source as it was for AE’s failed in-flight test over Lae. Yet the Pan Am technician was able to get a directional minimum, no problem. One wonders, was AE with him at the time in the cockpit at the Miami airport, when she could have received useful instruction in working the direction finder?
Soon after AE, FN, GP, and Bo arrived in Miami after flying from New Orleans, someone in their party apparently told a newsman that a radio direction finder was to be installed in the plane. While it’s possible this was a cover story to explain a stay in Miami that was really for other purposes, it seems to me just as plausible that it reflected a genuine concern with the adequacy of the plane’s RDF capability thus far. Had AE been able to make it work at all, one wonders. And if not, why not.
There are many possible explanations for the failure in direction finding as they approached Howland. That small AVC switch is only one of them, but it seems to me that it fits what we know, and it explains some of what is otherwise rather puzzling.
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Good grief, could it have been something as simple as a switch setting :) :) that led to all the problems?
This is good work! :)
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Good grief, could it have been something as simple as a switch setting :) :) that led to all the problems?
The "Automatic Volume Control" switch could help explain not finding a null while listening to the letter "A" being broadcast on 7500 Kcs. (https://tighar.org/wiki/Transmissions_heard_from_NR16020#Z1930)
It does not explain not being able to hear voice transmissions on her other channels. (https://tighar.org/wiki/Transmissions_heard_from_NR16020#Z1910)
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I wonder if there are enough old transmitters, receivers and other components that were installed in the Electra still in existence that could be used to duplicate the set-up used in the second attempt as they left FL. Would need assistance from real radio archaeologists to attempt something like this.
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In light of the findings by Ric on the Sid Marshall film...kinda curious to know exactly how long an 18mm film is when fully filmed. I just dont see Sid Marshall filming just Amelia and Fred getting in the plane twice and taking off down the runway. You have to assume he's doing an interview or something. Unless this film is a silent film! It makes you wonder! Also, Ric....and help me on this and I know its rather early in the morning but I don't think my eyes are deceiving me...but tell me guys if you actually see a patch in the window in this film as she is preparing to guide the plane to the runway. I just don't see it!!!
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"...but tell me guys if you actually see a patch in the window in this film as she is preparing to guide the plane to the runway. I just don't see it!!!
I can just make out an area of slightly lighter shaded fuselage aft of the cabin window. You kind of have to look away from that area a bit to be able to see the difference. The resolution of the film isn't great, but I can see a difference.
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...and an Electra 10B, pictured here:
No registration letters visible but that's VH-UZO, c/n 1107 delivered to Ansett Airways on July 8, 1937 and last known (1978) to be on exhibit at the Marshall Airways Museum, in Bankstown, NSW as VH-ASM (note the "ASM" on the tail of the airplane in the photo). Today there is no Marshall Airways Museum listed but there is an Australian Aviation Museum (http://australianaviationmuseum.com.au/) in Bankstown. No Electra listed in the collection.
I have a vague recollection of hearing about an Aussie Electra being purchased from a museum for rebuild to airworthy condition.
Here’s some further info on that Australian Electra 10B c/n 1107, the one that for a time in the 1970s was owned by Sid Marshall, the Guinea Airways mechanic and pilot who filmed Amelia’s final takeoff in Lae. The best source for the story of this plane is already linked from the Electra Survivors Project page of Ameliapedia: http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/Lockheed%2010%20VH-UZO%20Ansett%20crash%207-3-43.htm (http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/Lockheed%2010%20VH-UZO%20Ansett%20crash%207-3-43.htm)
As told there, by 2004 the restored c/n 1107 was in the collection of what was then called “Australia’s Museum of Flight,” located at the naval air station HMAS Albatross near Nowra, New South Wales. Another source probably dating from about that time also listed it as “on display” in that navy museum, along with a Lockheed 12A and more than 30 other historic aircraft: http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Fleet_Air_Arm_Museum_(Australia) (http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Fleet_Air_Arm_Museum_(Australia))
(The links provided in notes 4 & 5 no longer work.)
In 2006 this museum was renamed the “Fleet Air Arm Museum,” and has since been owned and managed by the Royal Australian Navy. C/n 1107 is not listed on their website as of August 2016: http://www.navy.gov.au/history/museums/fleet-air-arm-museum#contact (http://www.navy.gov.au/history/museums/fleet-air-arm-museum#contact)
So its current location is yet to be determined, but the Fleet Air Arm Museum is obviously the place to start the inquiry.
My guess is that given the focus of the museum on naval aviation, there may be no suitable place for the display of c/n 1107, even though it did see military service during WW II. (It and two sister-ships were “leased to the USAAF for transport work,” and “averaged 12 hours of flying per day and sometimes flew up to 20 hours per day,” in Australia, according to the article cited above.)
One key paragraph from that article: “In April 1981 the remains were obtained by Laurie Ogle for restoration, which was duly completed a decade later. In the process of restoration the original Wright Whirlwinds were replaced by Pratt & Whitney R-985 Wasp Juniors, effectively turning the aircraft into a Lockheed 10A. On 5 September 1991 the aircraft was restored to the Register as VH-UZO, and had its first post-restoration flight the next day. This historic aircraft still exists and today (c.2004) resides with Australia's Museum of Flight at Nowra, NSW.”
So c/n 1107 was originally and throughout its service a Model 10B. Only later in the restoration work of 1981-91 was it in effect converted into a 10A with the change of engines.
Here’s a history of the museum that for a time housed c/n 1107, and may still, for all I know:
http://www.navy.gov.au/history/museums/fleet-air-arm-museum (http://www.navy.gov.au/history/museums/fleet-air-arm-museum)
Addendum of Sun Aug 14: Further info from Australian Rob Russell, who had posted his 1976 photo of this plane outside the (Sid) Marshall Airways hangar in Bankstown, the photo from which Ric identified this Electra as c/n 1107 http://www.secretsofasydneypast.com/2008/05/marshall-airways-lockheed-electra.html (http://www.secretsofasydneypast.com/2008/05/marshall-airways-lockheed-electra.html):
Hi Bill. I don't have an email but I believe the FAA [Fleet Air Arm] museum can be reached on (02) 4424 1920. ASM/UZO [c/n 1107] doesn't seem to be on their display list, however it was gifted to them by Laurie Ogle so they should know where it is now.
Other links for anyone interested:
http://www.adastron.com/lockheed/electra/vh-uzo.htm (http://www.adastron.com/lockheed/electra/vh-uzo.htm)
[end of post from Rob Russell, aka "gtveloce," his blog-name. I omit his other links because I have already given them above.]
Now my comments on his post: It's an important new fact that Laurie Ogle gifted the plane to the Fleet Air Arm Museum, then known as Australia's Museum of Flight. Laurie Ogle acquired the plane in 1981 and had it restored, by 1991 converting it from a Model 10B to Model 10A, its present official designation. As Rob says, that museum should know its present location.
The document Rob linked above is also important as a detailed history of this plane, and has been added as a link from the Electra Survivors Project page in Ameliapedia. Note the number of forced landings! Note also the great photos, before, during, & after restoration.
How ironic that this plane when brandnew was in shipment across the central Pacific in July 1937!