TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Celestial choir => Topic started by: Gary LaPook on May 14, 2012, 07:13:01 PM
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I havent either Jeff, unless the PBM (#45236) that went down in the phoenix group, ended up on the reef slope at Niku. Records indicate the crew was rescued by the Liberty ship James P Doty Sept 5, 1944. Captains log states that the mishap occured at 06*25' S, 176*25'W or about 175 miles SW of Gardner on a 228* heading. That would be a long way for a plane to drift, but I guess since it was a Martin Mariner, it might be possible with enough currents, and enough bouyancy to make it. A real stretch, but well see in July.
Tom
Maybe it's the B-17 that was carrying Rickenbacker that went down enroute to Canton.
gl
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Gary ---That is interesting----i'll get back to you. UPDATE: From what I can find out Rickenbacker was inroute to Canton from Hawaii for refueling on his way to meet MacArthur. Apparently due to some navigational issues, they missed Canton, and ditched in the ocean. Canton is about 230 NM from Gardner. They were finally picked up Tuvulau (?) about 500 nm from Gardner.
I suppose its possible that the B17 was near Gardner whenit ditched, and they didnt see the island, even though they were at 5000 feet. I suppose it is possible, that currents, and stuff could have allow the plane to drift to the reef at Gardner. I dont have coordinates of where it went down, and neither does anyone else.
i guess we'll know in July.
Tom
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I suppose its possible that the B17 was near Gardner when it ditched
On a Pacific scale, it was right next door.
I suppose it is possible, that currents, and stuff could have allow the plane to drift to the reef at Gardner.
I think it is absolutely possible.
(http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/c/ce/Kiribati_map.gif)
(http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/7/7b/Kanton-Funafuti-Tuvalu.jpg)
This is a possible candidate for a wreck that might have produced Nessie. It's a genuinely new piece of information that, as far as I can tell, has never come up in the Forum before. And it is a very interesting tale of survival.
Since the prevailing winds are from the northeast, the drift of the rafts and, presumably, the wreckage, was through the general vicinity of Niku.
On the other hand, I think the account of the wreck suggests that the landing gear was up. It does not seem hugely probable that a landing gear would have worked its way out of the wheel wells, through the closed doors, to the surface, and thence to Niku. But strange things do happen, so it is not entirely inconceivable.
The map shows Kanton to Funafuti because we had earlier discussed a flight that was lost on that route.
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Marty, Eric Bevingtons photo was take in 1937 and Rickenbackers B17 went down in October 1942 so the Nessie photo couldn't be parts from his B17.
On the other hand, IF wreckage is found on the Nikumaroro reef this year then it could be from his B17.
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(http://)
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http://www.navworld.com/navcerebrations/rickenbacker/braingame1.htm (http://www.navworld.com/navcerebrations/rickenbacker/braingame1.htm)
This is the link to the site where the previous image lives.
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Apparently they ditched everything that wasn't nailed down to try to keep the B17 aloft for as long as possible and, after ditching the B17 still remained partially afloat/submerged (take your pick) until they lost sight of it.
As the gas gauge neared zero, Cherry began preparing to ditch. Meanwhile, all hands were busy tossing out everything not considered essential to survival, including mail, a toolbox, cots, blankets and luggage, as well as Rickenbacker's briefcase containing classified material.
The B-17 was still partially afloat, although by then it had begun settling deeper into the water
http://www.historynet.com/eddie-rickenbacker-and-six-other-people-survive-a-b-17-crash-and-three-weeks-lost-in-the-pacific-ocean.htm (http://www.historynet.com/eddie-rickenbacker-and-six-other-people-survive-a-b-17-crash-and-three-weeks-lost-in-the-pacific-ocean.htm)
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I dont think we are disputing that Nessie is not part of either of these aircraft accidents. no way possible without a time machine. BUT----we previously had been discussing other known, or unknown aircraft wrecks 'near' Nikumaroro. The PBM, and the B17 of Rickenbacker were the only 2 that I came up with that were not documented with a location. Most were around Canton Island.
In light of all things possible, yes the wreckage that we 'see' on the reef could be on of those planes. It could be our Electra. It could be something we dont know about, such as a Japaneese seaplane, or Zero, or a Val, or anything. I'm not convinced, nor is anyone else. But, we have to acknowledge that the possiblility does exsists. PT109 drifted quite a long way before ending up in its resting place. I would like to think its the Electra, but I'll wait until the expedition to celebrate.
tom
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Marty, Eric Bevingtons photo was take in 1937 and Rickenbackers B17 went down in October 1942 so the Nessie photo couldn't be parts from his B17.
We're not going to let a facts few inhibit our imagination, are we? :D
On the other hand, IF wreckage is found on the Nikumaroro reef this year then it could be from his B17.
Nice save! I thought I was going to have to kill this thread. :o
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Marty---leave it open for a bit--at least until July when Ric announces that we have a wing and engine from NR16020.
Tom
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Would this be a historically significant aircraft---being the Rickenbacker plane?
That would be a needle in a haystack!
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The overshoot of kanton island is estimated to be between 100 and 200 miles to the Southwest.
This website has it as at least 100 miles
The first part of the journey should have ended on Canton, however, the B-17 carrying Eddie Rickenbacker, his aide Col. Hans Adamson, and their flight crew, overshot Canton Island by at least 100 miles to the southwest
http://www.janeresture.com/tuvislands/nukufetau.htm (http://www.janeresture.com/tuvislands/nukufetau.htm)
In his book he records the crew as estimating the overshoot as being around 200 miles.
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that puts it in the neighborhood. kind of
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that puts it in the neighborhood. kind of
Which, BTW, supports what I have been saying for years, that just flying into the Phoenix Island group does NOT guarantee that you will stumble onto one of those islands. TIGHAR has been claiming the opposite, that Noonan and Earhart abandoned searching for Howland and continued to the southeast because they thought that they were sure to find one of the the many islands in the Phoenixs, So, I say TIGHAR's hypothesis on that point has been tested and proven to be incorrect.
gl
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Which, BTW, supports what I have been saying for years, that just flying into the Phoenix Island group does NOT guarantee that you will stumble onto one of those islands. TIGHAR has been claiming the opposite, that Noonan and Earhart abandoned searching for Howland and continued to the southeast because they thought that they were sure to find one of the the many islands in the Phoenixs, So, I say TIGHAR's hypothesis on that point has been tested and proven to be incorrect.
gl
Hardly a slam dunk there, Mr. LaPook. What else ya' got?
LTM, who belives in the possibles,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
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Which, BTW, supports what I have been saying for years, that just flying into the Phoenix Island group does NOT guarantee that you will stumble onto one of those islands. TIGHAR has been claiming the opposite, that Noonan and Earhart abandoned searching for Howland and continued to the southeast because they thought that they were sure to find one of the the many islands in the Phoenixs, So, I say TIGHAR's hypothesis on that point has been tested and proven to be incorrect.
I speculate that AE & FN were sure of nothing after missing Howland. The main point of TIGHAR's hypothesis is that they made it to Gardner somehow, more with serendipity than surety.
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that puts it in the neighborhood. kind of
Which, BTW, supports what I have been saying for years, that just flying into the Phoenix Island group does NOT guarantee that you will stumble onto one of those islands. TIGHAR has been claiming the opposite, that Noonan and Earhart abandoned searching for Howland and continued to the southeast because they thought that they were sure to find one of the the many islands in the Phoenixs, So, I say TIGHAR's hypothesis on that point has been tested and proven to be incorrect.
gl
A good point Gary.
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Which, BTW, supports what I have been saying for years, that just flying into the Phoenix Island group does NOT guarantee that you will stumble onto one of those islands. TIGHAR has been claiming the opposite, that Noonan and Earhart abandoned searching for Howland and continued to the southeast because they thought that they were sure to find one of the the many islands in the Phoenixs, So, I say TIGHAR's hypothesis on that point has been tested and proven to be incorrect.
From one data point you may draw an infinite number of lines.
That one person didn't see something doesn't means someone else can't.
You have an unusually low standard of "proof" here, counselor.
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Well it certainly increases the chances of finding aircraft wreckage on the reef at Nikumaroro if nothing else. I also noticed that another ship collided with an island in the Phoenix group apart from the whaling ship that ran aground and discovered Canton island, the President Taylor troop ship did the same in 1942.
http://www.shipwreckworld.com/articles/hard-and-fast-on-a-pacific-atoll-views-from-the-bridge-and-the-bow (http://www.shipwreckworld.com/articles/hard-and-fast-on-a-pacific-atoll-views-from-the-bridge-and-the-bow)
They seem to be a magnet for metal
Another ship on reef
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I'm surprised Gary that you have made these statements. Jeff N is right. If TIGHAR had proof that the Electra landed on Gardner then we know about it by now. The fact is that a quite expensive expedition is going there very soon to search for proof. Hence, we still have a hypothesis not a proven theory.
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Very good Irv!
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Just thought I should mention it at this stage. If the wreckage on the reef turns out to be B-17D Flying Fortress Serial Number 40-3089 does that still count as success. I think it should do as it's still an historic aircraft. I would dearly like it to be the Electra but...
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I think so Jeff------it proves a hypothesis---that a ditched B-17 can travel underwater, although is navigation skills need some work.
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I think so Jeff------it proves a hypothesis---that a ditched B-17 can travel underwater, although is navigation skills need some work.
Yes, I was of that opinion as well Tom but, you would be amazed at what gets washed around in the oceans.
"Motorcycle swept away by Japanese tsunami reaches CanadaHarley-Davidson that journeyed 4,000 miles and found washed up on Canadian island is identified by its owner"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/02/motorcycle-japanese-tsunami-reaches-canada (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/02/motorcycle-japanese-tsunami-reaches-canada)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/01/tsunami-japan-debris-us-canada (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/01/tsunami-japan-debris-us-canada)
If a submerged motorbike could make it that far I'm sure a B17-D could easily cover 20 miles after all, the wing surface areas and tailplane would make great sails to catch the ocean currents, much better than a motorbike.
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The bike was in a storage container that floated. The container later floated away. Again. This time without the bike.
See story that shows the bike still in the container when originally found
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/05/01/bc-tsunami-motorcycle-owner.html
I am worried the electra floated enough to run up against the Norwich City, get stuck and then burried when the NC later broke apart. Or it planed down to a spot where the NC debris feild later covered/ hid it.
There were reports of orange target drone planes drifting to shore from far away recently
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Jeff---as much I think we all would like to see a wing with NR16020 on it, we do have to be open to the possiblilty of "other' aircraft wreckage. The B 17, just kinda cross into our thinking a couple of weeks ago, and mine completely by accident. Are there others? the reality is, probably.
We'll see after July.
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That's exactly what I thought Tom, could there possibly be another aircraft that went missing and ditched in the vicinity of Gardner and, lo and behold, B-17D Flying Fortress Serial Number 40-3089 with eddie Rickenbacker et al. Lost trying to find Canton island, 200 mile overshoot to the South West estimated by surviving crew. Faulty navigation gear and, under estimated the tailwind by a farmers mile puts the ditched plane in the vicinity I guess, uncanny.
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As we are finding out, there are alternatives that we dont know about, or dont seem relevant. But---in the case of the "aircraft wreckage", we hope it is the Electra, but as Gary (I think) stated somewhere, it could be a plane we dont know about. I mentioned a Japaneese seaplane, because we can account for all but 2 locations of crashes in the Phoenix area. The B17 and a PBY went down at sea, with no locations, but we dont know about Japaneese air activity. I would assume that during the war, they had fights in the south Pacific Islands, but I havent looked into that.
IF the ROVs do find the wreckage we are talking about, and it IS NOT the electra, then we are opening another mystery. I for one do hope it is the electra, but I'm open minded enough to think that it may be something else.
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Me too Tom. It's airplane wreckage but whose? Rickenbacker? AE+FN? Unknown?
We should know a bit more later this year.
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hopefully we can make the distinction between a civilian, or military aircraft---uh providing of course that it is aircraft wreckage.
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Did the Rickenbacker B17 have a name/nose art or was it just a serial number model? Be a shame if it was just a number :(
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Gee I dont know Jeff----Seems like they switched planes in Hawaii after a mishap. Identifying marks would be good.
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The one they were going to use originally had problems on take off so they took this one instead Tom
Brigadier General William Lynd, commander of Hickam Field, personally drove Rick and Colonel Adamson to the airfield. As the pilot, Captain William Cherry, tried to take off a tire blew sending the plane out of control. Skillfully he managed to maneuver the big B-17 back on the runway and halt it before it could plunge into the bay beyond the airstrip.
Shortly after mid-night a replacement Flying Fortress taxied off the runway, taking Eddie Rickenbacker and seven American servicemen into the dark clouds of the sky tropical sky. Three days later the news spread around the world.
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Jeff ---thats the way I understand it. Geee---i wonder if any squadron pics were available of the B17?
I think I'm getting off track here---Supposed to be looking for the Electra. But---If the B17 is there, it just proves Garys theory that crash and sank could be crash, float, sink, bouyant, carried by currents, Etc. which as a whole new option to our mystery.
Thoughts Gary?
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Well it wouldn't have had far to travel when you consider the vast expanse of the Pacific ocean. Strange as it may seem they were in contact with Palmyra Who fired anti - aircraft set to explode at 7000 ft to mark the islands location, all to no avail, they must have been hopelessly lost.
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Not sure if anyone has ever looked at this before. This is from one of many photos on this site. I used "microsoft office picture manager" and played with the brightness and contrast. If someone else could look that would be great. I do see something (maybe plane) at the very bottom right of photo from 1938.
I have attached to documents... one is the photo, and the other is a word document with the enhanced picture pasted into it... the object looks to be off away from the reef, and then the size.. this is what I am unsure of..
thanks
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SR. Chief Kirk--we've been looking at this pic for a while, but another set of eyes and thought processes is great! Perhaps you see something we dont---which is good!
Tom
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I am reminded of a reply I got on one other post when someone said they found 'wreckage' on the shore and in the water on the reef. In short it isn't there. Now that is not to say I am sold on that idea, but I have never been to the island, I don't know the environment. So I don't know if something could be on the reef for an extended period of time (Such as a B17 or Electra) and wash away. I have to take their judgement on it. However I will say this, I see something in this photo, and the others. It does look like a plane, but I don't know if it is one or what it is. Something is there... of this I am sure.
Also regarding the floating of the planes when in the water. I can see how the B17 could float its way to Gardner over time. If it was in once peace, which I understand it was. However if this is the place where AE landed the Electra, and it was on the reef then I don't think it went far. Think about it, if that ship was there taking the pounding from the surf, it can't be in one peace. I bet it is in a million peaces all up and down the cliff side of the reef.
Just my thoughts.
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Rich- for sure the Norwich city is in alot of pieces. Some on the reef, some in the lagoon, alot I suspect at the bottom of the ocean at the reef edge.
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All mingled in with a Electra I bet, now maybe a B17 too. I do not envy the team going back, they have their hands full.
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And bits of the SS Norwich City Rich ;)
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Not sure if anyone has ever looked at this before. This is from one of many photos on this site. I used "microsoft office picture manager" and played with the brightness and contrast. If someone else could look that would be great. I do see something (maybe plane) at the very bottom right of photo from 1938.
I have attached to documents... one is the photo, and the other is a word document with the enhanced picture pasted into it... the object looks to be off away from the reef, and then the size.. this is what I am unsure of..
thanks
there is odd anomolys in the enhanced photo i have attached, of same area ? the to little white bits u see bottom right corner my thought on them is, if it's the Electra and it's hanging on reef edge with nose gone faceing skyward out of water, then the two white objects could be the spot lights in nose cone ?
(https://tighar.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=571.0;attach=1467;image)
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i have put arrow to object in question
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Richie---can you clean this up any? I'd like to think its something shiney reflecting off the sun, just wnder the water, but I have a hard time making it out.
Tom
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Am gonna have ago, but the image has already been enhanced by Jeff Glickman
so i very much doubt, there is anything that i can do to enhance it more :)
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Another example of what can drift a little way...
A huge dock torn from a Japanese port by the 2011 tsunami has washed up 8,050km (5,000 miles) away on the US West Coast after crossing the Pacific....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18349741 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18349741)
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I saw that. Ok---Not discounting the landing theory, but we know the B17 went down in the Phoenix Group because of a navigational error, and ran out of fuel. We know they drifed in a raft for 20+ days, and were found near Fiji, Samoa, somewhere 500+ miles away.
Apparently the plane did not break up on ditching, even though the swells were pretty large. So we have an 'intact' B17, that does have "some(?)" bouyancy after it submerges. So, I guess for it to have made it to the Niku reef, it would have to have drifted quite a ways underwater, becoming less bouyant as the fuselege fills with water. The ocean bottom is pretty deep in the area around Niku, but is there a possiblity that maybe it 'found' Winslow Reef, or Candolet Reef, and after a preiod of time, and storms, found itself on Niku?
Anything is possible, but in this case even I would say not real likely. I say lets let Mike and the Phoenix guys do their survey, find the wreckage ( a wing or tail with NR16020 on it would be really nice!) and then we will know if we need to be thinking about alternate aircraft wreckage.
Then, the archaeologists can find her!
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Wouldn't it have pitchd up on the windward side of the island anyway?
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I have watched this particular thread grow steadily larger and larger with each comment. I cracked up with the very first comment and I'm still shaking my head over it. I have a sneaking suspicion Gary started this thread to see how many of us would bite and make some kind of comment. Thanks Gary for the laugh!
Brad
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Brad, it started by wondering aloud if there were any other documented aircraft lossed in the area, just in case the expedition turned up a military aircraft instead of the Electra. Gary mentioned the B17, which I thought went down alot closer to Canton. Anythings possible I guess.
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The crews own estimate of the overshoot of Canton Island was at least 100 miles Tom
the B-17 carrying Eddie Rickenbacker, his aide Col. Hans Adamson, and their flight crew, overshot Canton Island by at least 100 miles to the southwest.
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Wouldn't it have pitchd up on the windward side of the island anyway?
Depends where it went in Chris. The crew who took to the life rafts drifted to Tuvalu so that seems to be the way the current went.
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I guess I have to explain why I find the comments regarding the B-17 humorous.
1. B-17's in any model, Model 299, Y1B-17, YB-17A, B-17B, through to the PB-1G didn't float.... ever. If you went down, you might have an amount of time to pop the life rafts out from the dorsal compartments and get the crew into the rafts, but rest assured... the plane will sink... quickly... every time.
2. The specific gravity of seawater (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_specific_gravity_of_seawater) is 1.02, the density of aluminum (http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/102aluminum.html) is 2.7 g/mL, which means the metal will sink in water.
3. Things float in water because they have a density that is less than water (1.0 @ 39* F.), or they weigh less than the water they displace. This means that once Buoyancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy) is lost, the object sinks... to the bottom... all the way to bottom... every time. They don't float 100 ft down to drift with the current, they just sink. They might drift from where they left the surface for some distance, maybe up to a mile, maybe a little more. With a buoyancy factor of a large brick a B-17 won't drift 10 miles let alone 300.
4. If it is a B-17 at Niku it wont be Rickenbacker's. (Unless those folks over at Nauticos (http://www.nauticos.com/) snagged it and are playing a funny on Ric by dropping it at Niku)
So now you see why I find it humorous. ;D
Brad
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I have watched this particular thread grow steadily larger and larger with each comment. I cracked up with the very first comment and I'm still shaking my head over it. I have a sneaking suspicion Gary started this thread to see how many of us would bite and make some kind of comment. Thanks Gary for the laugh!
Brad
You are not wrong. ;)
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Youre right Brad. It will sink. How long it takes was probably a better way for me to ask the question. Actually, if the wreckage on the reef isnt the B17, and there no other missing aircraft in the region, then it 'must" be the Electra. but that would be jumoing to a conclusion. But circumstancial none the less--I actually hope it is ---one or the other--
Tom
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Youre right Brad. It will sink. How long it takes was probably a better way for me to ask the question. Actually, if the wreckage on the reef isnt the B17, and there no other missing aircraft in the region, then it 'must" be the Electra. but that would be jumoing to a conclusion. But circumstancial none the less--I actually hope it is ---one or the other--
Tom
Tom, this thread gets its origins from some posts I put in another thread regarding other aircraft missing in the area and, I was directed to the Tighar archive...
http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,217.msg12962.html#msg12962 (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,217.msg12962.html#msg12962)
http://tighar.org/wiki/Aircraft_lost_in_the_vicinity_of_Nikumaroro (http://tighar.org/wiki/Aircraft_lost_in_the_vicinity_of_Nikumaroro)
Further investigation led to the Rickenbackers B17-D as being the closest to Gardner Island ditched at sea suspect, a 100 mile overshoot of Canton is very close.
Then there's the aircraft parts villagers had thread, from another ditched in the area aircraft, the fact that the local population could get hold of Alclad from ditched planes makes you wonder how...
http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,390.0.html (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,390.0.html)
So you see, what may of started off as a humourous little avenue of exploration has revealed the huge amount of metalwork ditched into the sea around Gardner Island is far more than it may first appear. Of course the 2 examples I have used are only the Known ones! there may be more that we don't know of, WW2 and all that.
Interesting if nothing else ;)
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Lou Zamperini was lucky. He survived a risky, put-up-your-dukes childhood and made it into the Olympics. But in May '43, in a B-24 over the Pacific, his luck seemed to run out.
47 Days adrift in the Pacific!!!!!
OMG
Nowhere near gardner but all the same, 47 days!!!!
http://www.americainwwii.com/stories/luckylouie.html (http://www.americainwwii.com/stories/luckylouie.html)