TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Ric Gillespie on October 22, 2012, 09:41:27 AM
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The purpose of this Forum project is to assemble a list of surviving examples of the Lockheed Model 10 Electra, including known wreck sites. When the list is complete we'll publish it on the TIGHAR website as a resource for anyone and everyone to use.
Attached is an Excel spreadsheet we'll use to assemble the list. I've enter a couple aircraft to get the ball rolling. If you can add to the list, just post the information you have to this thread and we'll update and re-post the spreadsheet. Also, if you have a photo of the subject Electra, post it to the forum and we'll grab it to use in the website Survivor's List (assuming there are no copyright issues).
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Ric,
POTENTAL SOURCES OF L-10 DRAWINGS, BLUEPRINTS, PARTS LISTS, etc.
First source: the FAA N-list of OWNERS
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Inquiry.aspx
this tells you who to ask.
***An example:***
S/N 1026, N38BB - Originally delivered to Braniff Airways as NC14937. The N-list will give:
Owner
Frederick W. Patterson III
2 Entrada Cir.
American Canyon CA
you have to go add the zip code from elsewhere 94503-3111
same with phone.
Then, go to the successor of Braniff. From Wikipedia we find: “The remains of the original Braniff—including Braniff Airways original Tax ID number (FEIN)—are retained by a company named "Asworth" in Dallas. Asworth was formed out of the old "Dalfort" corporation and is responsible for paying pilot pensions according to the Braniff Retired Pilots Group, B.I.S.E.”
There were several other companies that operated this aircraft, and I suspect that Patterson will tell you which they were. It also had a different N number when operated by during earlier owners Provincetown-Boston Airlines – N38PB.
Then, go to Provincetown-Boston Airlines.
Many probably had several N numbers over the years. The FAA permits changes for whatever reason the owner has.
Some entries in the FAA Nlist show corporate, or partnership names. You have to search the financial and state company data for real persons involved.
***End of example.***
Second, See Operators under
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Model_10_Electra
For each US, UK, AUS, NZ, RSA, FR, and Canadian company, or its successor, have your volunteer locate the name of the current company HISTORIAN or ARCHIVIST. Write, or better, call, and ask if their records include the resources used by their maintenance departments, just for Lockheed L-10 aircraft, and if so, can you have a copy. If no historian or archivist, check SEC filings 10K etc., for names of directors – look for contacts.
Third, Air Museums
For all Air Museums that have an L-10, call by phone and ask for the name, address, and phone of the CREW CHIEF of the L-10. Then either call or write that crew chief person and say you are seeking blueprints, drawings, all illustrations for the L-10, and if they have some, can you have a copy. Note, AMs often have ex-military as staff – treat accordingly.
Fourth, South America
Find a person whose mother tongue is W. Hemi Spanish, and have them compose the same for Latin American historical carriers who used L-10s. If you have members in Chile, Argentina & Brazil, enlist them for research and tracking of L-10 graphics..
Fifth. Other Overseas
Because you have members in CAN, AUS & NZ you might ask for volunteers to follow up those airplanes. I do not know if they have public access to data as in US.
Sixth. The wrecks
Leave until last because tracking is difficult UNLESS there is a signpost in the data. See e.g., S/N 1216 in the survivors list. For earlier wrecks, TIGHAR may have a list from when it did the Alaska wreck.
My first pass at survivors follows.
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Some more leads. I expect a couple of these are still under weeds behind a hangar. Contacts at the So Am airlines listed should help -- they, or their successors still exist. Backwaters such as Cuba, Bolivia etc., especially, may be productive. These came up in a search on "avion Lockheed L-10" if you want to reproduce it.
While the "The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known." to the author, it doesn't necessarily mean they were scrapped. If you really do find an interesting one behind a hangar, let me know, please. My AM may just want to have it for restoration.
Lockheed L-10 Electra
NC 13762, Lockheed L-10 Electra, notes: C/n 1009, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Compania Nacional Cubana de Aviacion, registered NM-15. This aircraft was later transferred to Pacific Alaska Airways. The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known.
NC 14259, Lockheed L-10 Electra, notes: C/n 1006, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Compania Nacional Cubana de Aviacion, and then later to Pacific Alaska Airways. The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known.
NC 14906, Lockheed L-10 Electra, notes: C/n 1019, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Compania Nacional Cubana de Aviacion, registered NM-12. This aircraft was later transferred to Pacific Alaska Airways. The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known..
NC 30077, Lockheed L-10 Electra, notes: C/n 1133, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Pacific Alaska Airways. The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known.
NC 30078, Lockheed L-10 Electra, notes: C/n 1134, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Pacific Alaska Airways. The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known.
XA-BAS, Lockheed L-10 Electra, notes: C/n 1043, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Compania Mexicana de Aviacion. The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known.
XA-BCJ, Lockheed L-10E Electra, notes: C/n 1042, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Compania Mexicana de Aviacion, then to Pacific Alaska, registered NC 14972. This aircraft was later transferred to Panair do Brasil, registered PP-PAS. Today (2007), this aircraft is currently on the United States registry as N1602D.
XA-BEM, Lockheed L-10 Electra, notes: C/n 1004, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Aerovias Centrales. This aircraft was later assigned to Compania Mexicana de Aviacion, and later to Compania Nacional Cubana de Aviacion, registered NM-17. The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known.
XA-BEN, Lockheed L-10 Electra, notes: C/n 1005, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan am first assigned this Lockheed Electra to Aerovias Centrales. This aircraft was later assigned to Compania Nacional Cubana de Aviacion, registered NM-11, and then to Pacific Alaska Airways, registered NC 14259. The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known.
XA-BEO, Lockheed L-10 Electra, notes: C/n 1007, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Aerovias Centrales, then to Compania Mexicana de Aviacion. The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known.
XA-BEP, Lockheed L-10 Electra, notes: C/n 1008, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Aerovias Centrales. This aircraft was later transferred to Panair do Brasil, registered PP-PAX. The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known.
XA-BEQ, Lockheed L-10 Electra, notes: C/n 1022, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Aerovias Centrales. This aircraft was later transferred to Compania Mexicana de Aviacion. The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known.
XA-BEU, Lockheed L-10 Electra, notes: C/n 1041, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Compania Mexicana de Aviacion. The fate of this Lockheed L-10 Electra is not known.
S/N ?? Este avión fue entregado a Eastern Airlines el 24-Sep-1935 como NC14959. Science museum, London. NC1571N
http://www.aviationcorner.net/gallery.asp?aircraft_type=Lockheed%20L-10&aircraft_type_id=777
S/N ?? 42-2 España - Ejército del Aire, Este avión el 42-2,junto con el 42-4,fueron los dos
"Electras" que volaron en la Aviación Nacional.
El 42-2 fue el avión al servicio del Gral.Kindelán, jefe de la Aviación Nacional.Despues de la guerra, pasa a volar con el Grupo de Estado Mayor con el numeral 91-2. Causando baja por falta de repuestos en 1953. Foto obtenida de mi buen amigo el Subteniente Manuel Gonzalez Nuñez.
http://www.aviationcorner.net/gallery.asp?aircraft_type=Lockheed%20L-10&aircraft_type_id=777
S/N ?? (NM16) Compania Cubana de Aviacion SA.
http://www.ecured.cu/images/e/e7/Electra.jpg
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Science museum London Lockheed Electra model 10 details....
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/I052/10320843.aspx (http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/I052/10320843.aspx)
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This is the list I found: at http://www.oldprops.ukhome.net/Lockheed%20L10%20Electra%20Photographs.html
Electra Census
Serial c/n Owner and notes
CF-TCA 1112 National Aviation Museum, Ontario, Canada.
C-FTCC 1116 Western Canada Aviaition Museum, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. Painted as CF-TCC.
N19HL 1130 Valiant Air Command, Titusville, Florida.
N38BB 1026 Western Aerospace Museum, Oakland, California, USA.
N72GT 1015 Airworthy. Linda Finch, Oakland, California, USA. Carries NR16020 and N1602D under wing.
N241M 1091 JT Almand. Flies as RCAF 7656 out of Grand Prairie, Texas, USA.
N1602D 1042 Grace McGuire, Stored Old Bridge, New Jersey, USA.
N4963C 1011 Pima Air Museum, Tucson, Arizona, USA. Painted as NC14260.
NC5171N 1037 Science Museum, South Kensington, London, UK.
N57573 1052 New England Air Museum, Bradley International Airport, Windsor Locks, Connecticut, UA.
VH-ASM 1107 Yesterday's Air Force, Bankstown, Sydney, Australia. Painted as VH-UZO.
ZK-AFD 1095 Museum of Technology and Transport, Auckland, New Zealand.
ZK-AWR 1145 Rob Mackley, New Zealand.
ZK-BUT 1138 Museum of Technology and Transport, Auckland, New Zealand.
36-353 3501 XC-35. National Air and Space Museum. Stored Garber facility, Maryland, USA.
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That's an old list. c/n 1130 hasn't belonged to the Valiant Air Command for probably 15 years. Finch sold c/n 1042 to Mike Kammerer 12 years ago.
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Of course it is
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S/N 1026 38BB is no longer in the Oakland Air Museum. Fred. Patterson moved it for some reason.
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In addition to the 15 Lockheed 10 Electras listed at http://www.oldprops.ukhome.net/Lockheed%20L10%20Electra%20Photographs.html, I found three more surviving Lockheed 10s at http://flytoanothertime.com/Fly_To_Another_Time/Lockheed_10_%26_12.html (a more up-to-date list of surviving Model 10 Electras): They are:
1. S/N 1059, N5705 - Originally delivered to Chicago and Southern Airlines as NC16024. Status unknown. Previously registered to Universal Air Leasing, Grand Blanc, Michigan.
2. S/N 1066, N16054 - Previously registered to Monarch Airways, Dayton, Ohio. Status Unknown.
3. S/N 1076, N2405 - USAAF 42-38342. Stored in New Jersey. (Only surviving C-36A)
Apart from NR16020 (c/n 1055), c/n 1042 (only surviving 10E), and the sole XC-35 (c/n 3501), the fate of the 12 other 10E Electras is listed below:
1. NC 30077 notes: C/n 1133, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Pacific Alaska Airways. Sold to Sold to Saco Colombia. Crashed Yoro October 17, 1946 (see http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YQYtmqkje0wJ:www.goldenyears.ukf.net/reg_C-.htm+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us for data)
2. NC 30078 notes: C/n 1134, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Pacific Alaska Airways. Sold to SACO Colombia. Crashed May 20, 1947 (see http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YQYtmqkje0wJ:www.goldenyears.ukf.net/reg_C-.htm+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us for data)
3. 42-32533 Lockheed C-36B c/n 1125 impressed into USAAF. Redesignated UC-36B-LO in 1943. not taken up. fate unknown last known owner: Posta Aera (?)
4. 42-32534 Lockheed C-36B c/n 1129 NC18987 with Idaho Maryland Mining, impressed Mar 14, 1942. WFU Feb 3, 1943 ad Salinas, CA. fate unknown
5. 42-38289 Lockheed C-36B c/n 1054 NC14994 of Continental impressed into USAAF serviice Mar 14, 1942. Redesignated UC-36B-LO in 1943. To NC1494. WFU May 12, 1944. fate unknown
6. 42-38296 Lockheed C-36B c/n 1140 NC1621 of Texaco impressed into USAAF service Mar 14, 1942. Redesignated UC-36B-LO in 1943. WFU Feb 15, 1943. fate unknown
7. 42-38304 Lockheed C-36B c/n 1117 NC18139 of United Gas impressed by USAAF Mar 14, 1942 Redesignated UC-36B-LO in 1943. To NC14994 May 12, 1944 fate unknown
8. NR16059, c/n 1065. Later registered as CCCP-H214 (see http://tighar.org/wiki/NR16059:_%22Daily_Express%22_Electra_10E_Special for info). Fate Unknown
9. NC19982 c/n 1118 NC19982 NC3030 YV-MGO-2 YV-AEP YV-P-AEF YV-C-AVR YV-C-GAA YV-P-EPS YV-E-FPO Written off in hangar fire Caracas 4.71
10. XA-BAS, notes: C/n 1043, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Compania Mexicana de Aviacion. Destroyed Feb. 9, 1938 on test flight
11. XA-BAU c/n/ 1041, ordered by Pan Am on 13 December 1933. Pan Am assigned this Lockheed Electra to Compania Mexicana de Aviacion. destroyed Dec. 2, 1938
12. c/n 1115 M.M. 1 last known owner: Argentine Navy
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Serial Number W9104 was a Lockheed 10A Electra (Lockheed Serial Number 1122) delivered new with British registration G-AFEB in 1938 impressed into service with the Royal Air Force 12 April 1940, damaged beyond repair 12 October 1941.
And, an interesting article on British Airways LTD, not the British Airways of today and, no relation whatsoever but...
On 7 February 1937, all services were transferred to Croydon Airport, after surfaces at Gatwick became water-logged due to heavy traffic on immature turf and drains that collapsed; some training operations remained there. In March 1937, the first four of seven Lockheed 10 Electras were delivered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Ltd. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Ltd.)
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Survivors as of 10 Dec 2012
c/n
1011
1015
1026 Air maybe
1037
1042 Air
1052
1076
1095
1107
1112
1116 Air
1130
1138
1145
3501
Air indicates airworthy
Of of 149 mfd, 137 have been identified as of 10 Dec 2012, leaving 12 to be identified.
Will forward that list. It includes some pictures. Tell me what format you want -- pdf, doc. Regrets, but it is too untidy to put into a spreadsheet without some work.
Those not located yet are c/n 1063 1064 1071 1081 1083 1096 1104 1113 1115 1125 1143 1149. I have not searched military regs that never transferred to civilian reg. in US, Canada and Argentina. Those are the next places to be examined.
Regards to all.
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Hi Michael Elliot,
Concerning the identities and whereabouts of c/n 1063 1064 1071 1081 1083 1096 1104 1113 1115 1125 1143 1149:
c/n
1063 (http://www.ody.ca/~bwalker/RCAF_1500_1549_detailed.html)
1064 (http://www.ody.ca/~bwalker/RCAF_1500_1549_detailed.html)
1071 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=109031)
1081 (http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/FisherJack/11216.htm)
1083 (http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/FisherJack/11216.htm)
1096 (http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac3/Airline/Mid-Continent%20Airlines%20Lockheed%2010A.html
1104 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=27731)
1113 (http://www.ody.ca/~bwalker/RCAF_1500_1549_detailed.html)
1115 (http://www.oocities.org/capecanaveral/1307/ana1.htm)
1125 (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Highlights61_80/highlights61.html)
1143 (R.E.G. Davies, Airlines of Latin America Since 1919 (Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1984)
1149 (R.E.G. Davies, Airlines of Latin America Since 1919 (Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1984)
Hopefully this should complete the list of all extant Lockheed Model 10 Electras.
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Survivors as of 10 Dec 2012 ...
I've tried, as best I can, to consolidate the information in this thread on an "Electra Survivors" page (http://tighar.org/wiki/Electra_Survivors_Project).
There seem to be some discrepancies, most notably with 1011 and 1042.
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There seem to be some discrepancies, most notably with 1011 and 1042.
I don't think 1011 ever had an "N" number.
I'm sure that Kammerer never owned 1042. McGuire bought the airplane at least 20, maybe 30, years ago after it was severely damaged in a hangar fire in Florida. She has been slowly piecing it back together ever since - always with the dream of recreating AE's world flight.
I do not think it is airworthy yet.
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Ric
You say
"I'm sure that Kammerer never owned 1042. McGuire bought the airplane at least 20, maybe 30, years ago after it was severely damaged in a hangar fire in Florida. She has been slowly piecing it back together ever since - always with the dream of recreating AE's world flight.
I do not think it is airworthy yet."
But in reply #6, you said "Finch sold c/n 1042 to Mike Kammerer 12 years ago." which conflicts with your statement above.
I think you must have mixed up numbers, yes?
amck
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I think you must have mixed up numbers, yes?
Yes. Sorry. The airplane owned by Finch and then Kammerer is 1015. A very old 10A that was later converted to a 10E. McGuire's airplane is 1042, the only surviving Electra that was built as a 10E.
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An early version of the fates of all 148, where known, and the survivors now exists.
Survivors as of 10 Dec 2012
c/n
1011
1015
1026 Air maybe
1037
1042 Air
1052
1076
1095
1107
1112
1116 Air
1130
1138
1145
3501
Air indicates airworthy, maybe. Except 1116 which is definitely, according to her pilot.
Since this will be a document that is never finished, I suggest it be put up on the TIGHAR site where updated versions can be posted. Allowing editing by anyone is probably not a good idea. I'll have it ready for the first post in a couple of days. Let me know off list who to send it to, please. And, of course, any errors are mine, and I'd appreciate corrections. I'll also add photos you may contribute to subsequent versions.
Some progress is being made on the drawings question.
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The aircraft Kamerer owned - #1015 - was inherited by his daughter Kristen who I've met as she lives close by. The registration is listed under an LLC which has an address coincident with Kristen.
She has set up a foundation supporting women. Last year there was a plan afoot to fly the aircraft around the world as an awareness raising scheme, but now it seems she intends to fund grants by the foundation through the sale of the aircraft which their website indicates went up for sale in Feb of 2012.
Here is what it says on the website:
"When she inherited the 1935 Lockheed Electra 10E, Wolf was approached by several media and aviation organizations. All wanted to use the plane to re-create Amelia Earhart’s last flight for the purposes of scientific study and furthering the search for Earhart’s crash site. But Wolf had other ideas. She decided that instead of using the plane for a re-creation, she would mobilize it for the purposes of inspiration – to honor and uplift women and girls around the world – via an endowment established by the sale of the aircraft."
There is no indication that the aircraft has been sold that I can find, but it is pretty clear that the aircraft is airworthy or at least was as of last year. Current A/W certificate was issued in 2004. I think it is hangared in Texas.
See http://www.womenhavewings.org/who-we-are/ (http://www.womenhavewings.org/who-we-are/)
Chance of a lifetime to own a L-10E if you've got the pocket change....
Andrew
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The aircraft Kamerer owned - #1015 - was inherited by his daughter Kristen who I've met as she lives close by. The registration is listed under an LLC which has an address coincident with Kristen.
She has set up a foundation supporting women. Last year there was a plan afoot to fly the aircraft around the world as an awareness raising scheme, but now it seems she intends to fund grants by the foundation through the sale of the aircraft which their website indicates went up for sale in Feb of 2012.
Here is what it says on the website:
"When she inherited the 1935 Lockheed Electra 10E, Wolf was approached by several media and aviation organizations. All wanted to use the plane to re-create Amelia Earhart’s last flight for the purposes of scientific study and furthering the search for Earhart’s crash site. But Wolf had other ideas. She decided that instead of using the plane for a re-creation, she would mobilize it for the purposes of inspiration – to honor and uplift women and girls around the world – via an endowment established by the sale of the aircraft."
There is no indication that the aircraft has been sold that I can find, but it is pretty clear that the aircraft is airworthy or at least was as of last year. Current A/W certificate was issued in 2004. I think it is hangared in Texas.
See http://www.womenhavewings.org/who-we-are/ (http://www.womenhavewings.org/who-we-are/)
Chance of a lifetime to own a L-10E if you've got the pocket change....
Andrew
Andrew and all,
Project Amelia:
I spoke to Sandie Dolese, Senior Advancement Officer, Museum of Flight, Seattle on Tuesday. She told me that Kristen Kammerer has accepted an offer to buy #1015 from them for display at the Museum. So far they have raised half the money to purchase the plane.
In her conversation with me she said "The exhibit and educational programs will have the aircraft as their centerpiece. We can’t wait to share the legend of Amelia Earhart and her story so that it will live on to inspire future generations."
"Amelia Earhart has been an inspiration to women and girls for generations. Project Amelia, supported by the current and new members of the ALL Ladies Guild, is the Museum of Flight’s new women’s initiative. The goal is to bring a restored Lockheed Electra Model 10-E to be the centerpiece of a permanent Amelia Earhart Exhibit."
http://www.museumofflight.org/electra
Much more here:
http://www.museumofflight.org/search/node/Amelia%20Earhart
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Personally, I think the Museum of Flight is a great place for 1015. I would encourage anyone who is so inclined to donate to the museum's purchase of the airplane.
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Personally, I think the Museum of Flight is a great place for 1015. I would encourage anyone who is so inclined to donate to the museum's purchase of the airplane.
Ric, in view of TIGHAR's own need for funding, I think it is quite gracious of you to endorse this project. I will personally let Sandie know of your comment. Thank you.
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I have received a follow up note of appreciation from Sandra Dolese, Museum of Flight in Seattle for the mention of their Project Amelia along with more information about the plans for the Electra L10-E #1015.
"Thank you for your interest in The Museum of Flight’s efforts to bring the Amelia Earhart story to life. What a great endorsement you shared on the TIGHAR forum! We also appreciate the kind words of support from TIGHAR’s executive director, Ric Gillespie, encouraging fellow enthusiasts to support Project Amelia at The Museum of Flight."
"The Museum will position the Electra as the centerpiece of a permanent exhibit showcasing Amelia’s adventures. Telling her story in this unique way will illuminate an American heroine who continues to inspire. While her disappearance 75 years ago remains an intriguing mystery, Amelia reigns supreme as the most-asked about subject of the Museum’s curatorial staff and the most researched topic in the Museum’s library."
More in the below attachment.
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The complete list of all 149 L-10s is now in reasonable shape. It consists of 51pp of text and some pictures. If someone will tell me where to upload the current version (no. 4) I'll do so. It is a pdf file. The list of known survivors is much shorter -- 16.
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If someone will tell me where to upload the current version (no. 4) I'll do so. It is a pdf file. The list of known survivors is much shorter -- 16.
Mike, How big is the pdf file? If it's small enough to email you can send it to me at tigharic@mac.com. It it's too big to email I can do either Dropbox or YouSendIt.
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Michael Elliot has provided a comprehensive list of the fate all 147 Electras: "Lockheed L-10 Electra Survivors and W/O and Vanished." (http://tighar.org/aw/mediawiki/images/7/7f/SurvivorsElectra_10version4.pdf)
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"N1602D. Reg. to Grace McGuire, PO BOX 68, RUMSON NJ
07760-0068 SURVIVOR as of 2012 AIRWORTHY as of 2012 Sale to MOF, Seattle pending"
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The above is in error. It is Linda Finch's #1015 that was sold to Mike Kammerer and is now owned by Kristen Kammerer who is selling the Electra to the Museum of Flight in Seattle.
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"N1602D. Reg. to Grace McGuire, PO BOX 68, RUMSON NJ
07760-0068 SURVIVOR as of 2012 AIRWORTHY as of 2012 Sale to MOF, Seattle pending"
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The above is in error. It is Linda Finch's #1015 that was sold to Mike Kammerer and is now owned by Kristen Kammerer who is selling the Electra to the Museum of Flight in Seattle.
Yes, I have that correction in survivors table (http://tighar.org/wiki/Electra_Survivors_Project) on the wiki.
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Another correction to the list of all Electras and their fates: c/n 1099 is clearly a typo for c/n 1089 (which is SP-BGJ), while c/n 1100 is a typo for c/n 1090 (which is SP-BGK) (see http://www.goldenyears.ukf.net/reg_YR-.htm). Therefore, no Electra airframes existed with c/n's 1099 and 1100.
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Vahe
You may be correct. The planes sold to LOT in Poland, which shifted between the Wermacht and the Red Army are confused. If you can sort this out, we will be in your debt. However, claiming that Lockheed skipped a couple of serial numbers is too imaginitive for most of us because it has no precedent, and even in the 1930s, there were some rules about what US airplane mfgrs were required to do.
Perhaps you may have good Russian language skills, which might be a valuable search tool, since there are vague connections between these two aircraft and Russia. Take a couple of months and see what you can dig out for us. We'll assist wherever we can. On the other hand, the likelihood of finding a survivor anywhere east of Danzig looks to me like .01 or less.
BTW, do you have Romanian? My attempts in that direction all seem to produce vague tales of all airports and their contents being destroyed in the period from 1939-1945. Having had first-hand contact with the Nazis, I'd not be surprised.
Appreciate your concern and efforts.
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Hi Mike Elliot:
For more info on the fates of SP-BGJ and SP-BGK, see http://www.europeanairlines.no/airline-companies-in-rumania-1918-1945. You see, the Germans had strong ties with the fascists in Romania and when they invaded Poland, the two Electras in service with LOT were sold to Romania and captured by the Soviets in September 1939. As far as is concerned, those Electras were still in service with LARES as late as 1943.
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Vahe
That's a useful site. Looks like the original source of secondary material in golden years and the other UK sites.
The Germans invaded Poland on 1 Sep 1939. It seems, according to the site's author, Rob Mulder, that two weeks or so later, the Polish gov't, or what was left of it, literally gave LOT's aircraft to LARES which was the state-owned Romanian line.
SP-BGK is assigned to c/n1090 by Mulder, and later YR-LEB, and so it is in the list I sent to TIGHAR. It is useful to have what appears to be the original (I think) source. So this clears up SP-BGK.
What is still missing is any mention of SP-BGJ, and c/n1099 and c/n1100.
Thanks. Useful addition.
PS., Did you contact Mulder to ask the source of his data? If not, I will. He may be able to shed some light on 1099 and 1100.
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Vahe
That's a useful site. Looks like the original source of secondary material in golden years and the other UK sites.
The Germans invaded Poland on 1 Sep 1939. It seems, according to the site's author, Rob Mulder, that two weeks or so later, the Polish gov't, or what was left of it, literally gave LOT's aircraft to LARES which was the state-owned Romanian line.
SP-BGK is assigned to c/n1090 by Mulder, and later YR-LEB, and so it is in the list I sent to TIGHAR. It is useful to have what appears to be the original (I think) source. So this clears up SP-BGK.
What is still missing is any mention of SP-BGJ, and c/n1099 and c/n1100.
Thanks. Useful addition.
PS., Did you contact Mulder to ask the source of his data? If not, I will. He may be able to shed some light on 1099 and 1100.
Don't know if this means anything or if it will help.
9707C Lockheed Electra, 1099 - Braniff AL, DX 5/3/68
289AC Lockheed Electra, 1100
http://aerofiles.com/regs-SUFFIXES.html
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Vahe
That's a useful site. Looks like the original source of secondary material in golden years and the other UK sites.
The Germans invaded Poland on 1 Sep 1939. It seems, according to the site's author, Rob Mulder, that two weeks or so later, the Polish gov't, or what was left of it, literally gave LOT's aircraft to LARES which was the state-owned Romanian line.
SP-BGK is assigned to c/n1090 by Mulder, and later YR-LEB, and so it is in the list I sent to TIGHAR. It is useful to have what appears to be the original (I think) source. So this clears up SP-BGK.
What is still missing is any mention of SP-BGJ, and c/n1099 and c/n1100.
Thanks. Useful addition.
PS., Did you contact Mulder to ask the source of his data? If not, I will. He may be able to shed some light on 1099 and 1100.
Don't know if this means anything or if it will help.
9707C Lockheed Electra, 1099 - Braniff AL, DX 5/3/68
289AC Lockheed Electra, 1100
http://aerofiles.com/regs-SUFFIXES.html
Those civil registrations were actually used for the turboprop-powered L-188 Electra, not the Model 10 Electra used by AE (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braniff_Flight_352 and http://www.pbase.com/zortek/image/92164487).
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Vahe
That's a useful site. Looks like the original source of secondary material in golden years and the other UK sites.
The Germans invaded Poland on 1 Sep 1939. It seems, according to the site's author, Rob Mulder, that two weeks or so later, the Polish gov't, or what was left of it, literally gave LOT's aircraft to LARES which was the state-owned Romanian line.
SP-BGK is assigned to c/n1090 by Mulder, and later YR-LEB, and so it is in the list I sent to TIGHAR. It is useful to have what appears to be the original (I think) source. So this clears up SP-BGK.
What is still missing is any mention of SP-BGJ, and c/n1099 and c/n1100.
Thanks. Useful addition.
PS., Did you contact Mulder to ask the source of his data? If not, I will. He may be able to shed some light on 1099 and 1100.
Don't know if this means anything or if it will help.
9707C Lockheed Electra, 1099 - Braniff AL, DX 5/3/68
289AC Lockheed Electra, 1100
http://aerofiles.com/regs-SUFFIXES.html
Those civil registrations were actually used for the turboprop-powered L-188 Electra, not the Model 10 Electra used by AE (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braniff_Flight_352 and http://www.pbase.com/zortek/image/92164487).
Sorry, I saw that after I posted.
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Hello, My name is David Black and I noticed quite a bit of Lockheed Electra expertise here on this site and was hoping someone could help me determine whether the airplane in the attached photo is a Lockheed 10 or 12 Electra/Jr, It is difficult to tell in the snow and from this angle but I thought someone on this forum just might be able to distinguish something that would tell me the model
The man in the photo is Avery Black and I am putting together his very interesting story in aviation, From WWI, barnstorming, to assistant chief test pilot at Lockheed for 17 years, he was also one of the founders of Varney Air Transport/Continental Airlines and was the first president of Continental.
At the Time of this particular photo he was with Varney/Continental and they had four electras/Jr’s, one L-10E and three L-12’s, I am hoping it is the L-10E in the photo, I have the Lockheed Data Plate for that plane C/N 1054, the A/P line number just before the Earhart Electra
Anyway thanks in advance for any info you can supply
Best Regards
David Black
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Hello, My name is David Black and I noticed quite a bit of Lockheed Electra expertise here on this site and was hoping someone could help me determine whether the airplane in the attached photo is a Lockheed 10 or 12 Electra/Jr, It is difficult to tell in the snow and from this angle but I thought someone on this forum just might be able to distinguish something that would tell me the model
Hello David and welcome to the TIGHAR forum. Someone here can probably help you determine the model of the Electra that you have the data plate for by the serial number (C/N 1054) or by looking at the picture that you referenced. Unfortunately the the picture did not attach to your post. I have provided here a link to "how to attach images into posts" (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,128.msg3750.html#msg3750). Just click on the blue letters and it will take you to the post with the instructions. I hope that this helps and once again, welcome to the forum.
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I've approved David's picture and everyone should now be able to see it. The airplane is a Model 10. The easiest way to tell is to note that the landing gear strut is a fork that attaches to each side of the axle. The strut on the Model 12 only attaches to one side.
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I've approved David's picture and everyone should now be able to see it. The airplane is a Model 10. The easiest way to tell is to note that the landing gear strut is a fork that attaches to each side of the axle. The strut on the Model 12 only attaches to one side.
Thanks Ric. That solved the problem and also answered David's question.
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At the Time of this particular photo he was with Varney/Continental and they had four electras/Jr’s, one L-10E and three L-12’s, I am hoping it is the L-10E in the photo, I have the Lockheed Data Plate for that plane C/N 1054, the A/P line number just before the Earhart Electra
Anyway thanks in advance for any info you can supply
Best Regards
David Black
David, being a curious George here, do you know what happened to C/N 1054? Is it still airworthy? Most of all can you take a picture of the data plate and post it since it is so close to the Earhart Electra? Oh, and how did you come by the data plate?
Regards,
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A little piece of S/N 1051 still survives. The person I got it from said it turned up at a flea market in West Virginia. This plane was originally NC14992 with Delta Air Lines, ship number 22 on the tail. I heard rumor that a wing on S/N 1130 at the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola came from S/N 1051 but never have confirmed it.
Pete
(http://www.clukey.com/aircraft/img_5703.jpg)
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A little piece of S/N 1051 still survives. The person I got it from said it turned up at a flea market in West Virginia. This plane was originally NC14992 with Delta Air Lines, ship number 22 on the tail. I heard rumor that a wing on S/N 1130 at the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola came from S/N 1051 but never have confirmed it.
Pete
"Just discernible on the nose of the close-up below is the fleet number "20" which would indicate that this machine was NC14990."
There seems to be a 2 digit discrepancy with the tail number. It would be interesting to know what happened to the rest of it and which one it is since the heading of the article say's NC14992. Confusing ???
http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac3/Airline/Delta%20Air%20Lines%20Lockheed%2010-B.html
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"Just discernible on the nose of the close-up below is the fleet number "20" which would indicate that this machine was NC14990."
There seems to be a 2 digit discrepancy with the tail number. It would be interesting to know what happened to the rest of it and which one it is since the heading of the article say's NC14992. Confusing ???
Bob, it looks to me like we are looking at two different aircraft here. The first picture, NC14992, also has the number "22" on the tail, see picture below. Would this be the "fleet number" for this aircraft and account for the apparent discrepancy with the tail numbers?
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"Just discernible on the nose of the close-up below is the fleet number "20" which would indicate that this machine was NC14990."
There seems to be a 2 digit discrepancy with the tail number. It would be interesting to know what happened to the rest of it and which one it is since the heading of the article say's NC14992. Confusing ???
Bob, it looks to me like we are looking at two different aircraft here. The first picture, NC14992, also has the number "22" on the tail, see picture below. Would this be the "fleet number" for this aircraft and account for the apparent discrepancy with the tail numbers?
I think you are right Woody. Found this morning "c/n 1049 Delta NC14990 impressed Jun 11, 1942. To NC14990 May 14, 1944. Looks like Delta acquired it from the "USAAF in 1944 and is apparently a different c/n.
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1942_3a.html
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That sure is a wealth of information on one page. Thanks Bob.
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There is one more listed on page 38. Model 10-A, c/n 1028, NC14939, "returned to commercial use", Aug 15, 1945 to PP-VAS (Brazil).
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At the Time of this particular photo he was with Varney/Continental and they had four electras/Jr’s, one L-10E and three L-12’s, I am hoping it is the L-10E in the photo, I have the Lockheed Data Plate for that plane C/N 1054, the A/P line number just before the Earhart Electra
Anyway thanks in advance for any info you can supply
Best Regards
David Black
David, being a curious George here, do you know what happened to C/N 1054? Is it still airworthy? Most of all can you take a picture of the data plate and post it since it is so close to the Earhart Electra? Oh, and how did you come by the data plate?
Regards,
Bob,
I found I had a photo of 1054's data plate.
Pete Clukey
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I am present working on a Lockheed 10A, No 1107, originally registered as VH-UZO. Having repaired some 'hangar rash' on the rear stabliser I now wish to re-rig the rudder cables. The turnbuckle on the rudder 'tie-wire' is almost inaccessible to my aging hands (I am 78 and my apprentice is 90) does anyone have a schematic diagram of the cable layout or better still, experience of this job. The aircraft belongs to the Australian Fleet Air Arm Museum and we wish to return it to flying status. We have the aircraft manuals, but the relevant sections (IV- Empenage and V-Control Surfaces) do not provide any detail. Additionally, does any one know the pretension specifications for the rigging/
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David,
Suggest you contact Rob Mackley in NZ. Email to rob(insert the at sign)mackley.co.nz. He has been rebuilding c/n1145 for the past decade and can probably help. If you do not hear from him, let me know and I'll send you another contact in Canada who rebuilt c/n 1116 a few years ago.
May I add you to my list of contacts who I occasionally use to obtain pictures of various sorts, and explanations of parts and mechanisms? If so, send me your email address off-list -- email to rkcolegate(insert the at sign)aol.com. Thanks
Regards
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Thank you very much for that contact. I will contavt you direct by Email
David
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The possibility of the hulk visible in sat photos at the airport graveyard in Asmara, Eritrea has been resolved. The question was: is it an L-10 or a Beech 18 (also twin engine, twin tail) It is the latter. Source: http://www.beech18.net/toast/toast.asp?action=posts&fid=4&sub=show&tid=1658
“I am a South African pilot in Eritrea (north africa) flying here for the UN. There is a Beech 18 looking mighty sad lying in the grass here at Asmara airport. I have had a brief look around and saw the following. Registration is ET-AFE, serial number BA288 and has E18S on the data plate. Has a date 06/1957 also on the plate. It looks like she has been derelict for a few years, still has her P&W's on and 3 bladed props. She has seen a bit of war action, has a few bullet holes in her - there was serious conflict between Ethiopia and Eritrea from 1998 to 2001.”
Mike
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"Museum of Flight adds antique replica of Earhart's plane." (http://www.seattlepi.com/business/boeing/article/Museum-of-Flight-adds-antique-replica-of-4340652.php)
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Received via e-mail today.
If people agree that this information is accurate, I'll modify the table on the wiki.
I don't have time to verify it myself.
I noticed on your page http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/FAQs/existingelectras.htm (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/FAQs/existingelectras.htm) you mention C/N: 1005 as (Note: Owner planned recovery in 1999. Not known if recovery was accomplished.) I would believe from the picture at http://www.ruudleeuw.com/others-septer2.htm (http://www.ruudleeuw.com/others-septer2.htm) and search 12Jul12 or just 1005 you will find the tail section of the aircraft on a trailer, that one could safely presume that it has been recovered in pieces. Subsequent searches on both the identifications named for the craft dont seem to lead anywhere other than whats referenced in the second link with no further info on the recovery.
#2 C/N: 1011 you have listed as outdoor storage. http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000693450L.html (http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000693450L.html) shows her complete and on display at the Pima Air and Space Museum in Arizona
#3 is being flown to Seattle supposedly Sept 2013 according to http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2013/03/museum-of-flight-acquires-electra-10-e/ (http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2013/03/museum-of-flight-acquires-electra-10-e/) and has been restored to resemble Amelia's, and I am sure you are aware they claim to have the only known piece of her aircraft
#6 on your site states damaged in fire, http://www.flytoanothertime.com/Fly_To_Another_Time/Lockheed_10_%26_12.html (http://www.flytoanothertime.com/Fly_To_Another_Time/Lockheed_10_%26_12.html) shows it flying as of 2011
#7 C/N 1052 states partial restored, http://www.neam.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=867 (http://www.neam.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=867) shows it finished at New England Air Museum
# 10 C/N 1107 reportedly is at Australia museum of flight per http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/Lockheed%2010%20VH-UZO%20Ansett%20crash%207-3-43.htm (http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/Lockheed%2010%20VH-UZO%20Ansett%20crash%207-3-43.htm) restored but I cannot find info on it further
According to the site http://www.flytoanothertime.com/Fly_To_Another_Time/Lockheed_10_%26_12.html (http://www.flytoanothertime.com/Fly_To_Another_Time/Lockheed_10_%26_12.html) you are missing S/N 1145 - Ex-Alaska model 10, now in NZ being restored to to airworthy by Rob Mackley. Picture from Spring 2011. and S/N 3501 - USAAC XC-35 modified with pressurized fuselage. Stored with National Air and Space Museum.
That last site seems to have some decent pictures of most the aircraft as well.
Just thought I would pass this info along in the interest of keeping your site up to date.
Keep up the search and love to mother
Gary Lang
K4GHL
Salisbury NC
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Hi Marty,
Virtually all of these updates had been incorporated in my ver. 7 sent to Ric about 6 weeks ago. You may want to forward a copy of that to this fellow in NC to allow him to update his comments. Also, you might note we are in touch with restorers in NZ, AUS, and CAN. I'll send you a copy of ver. 7 by email in case Ric's has gone walkabout.
Mike
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She has finally arrived at Boeing's Museum of Flight (http://www.museumofflight.org/event/2013/sep/21/arrival-lockheed-model-10-e-electra). I plan to visit in the next couple of weeks. If anyone wants pictures let me know and I'll try to post on the Forum.
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The most glaring outward discrepancies between the Finch/Kammerer Electra and NR16020 are the cowlings and propeller hubs. The Finch/Kammerer airplane has full-feathering props (a no-brainer for an airworthy aircraft) and cowlings from who-knows-where?
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I wonder if there are any old L10E original cowlings out there, or whether the museum might come up with faithful replicas - that would be a really neat touch. But they are round and close as it is. Sweet bird.
The National Museum of Naval Aviation had a set of 10E cowlings for the Electra (c/n 1130) they were rebuilding as a replica of NR16020 but the project was aborted before they swapped the airplane's R985s for R1340s so they never used the cowlings. Maybe they still have them.
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The first thing to find out is whether the Museum of Flight is even interested in making the airplane more closely resemble NR16020. They are busily calling it an"exact replica" which it is not.