Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 19 20 [21] 22 23 ... 31   Go Down

Author Topic: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland  (Read 376745 times)

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #300 on: March 04, 2012, 03:13:59 AM »


A Wikipedia article on Hydration/Dehydration said that an average person in an average temperate area such as the UK would need 2.5 Liters per day to stay hydrated (that;s about 5 pints, if I've done my arithmetic correctly)..What good is 1 pint a day?
That is for a person doing normal activities like working eight hours a day. For a survivor minimizing his activities he can get along on a lot less water. I have attached a page from the Air Force Survival Manual, AFM 64-5 showing the water needed by survivors in a desert environment and the needs of persons at sea are lower since they can use sea water to wet their clothing to act as artificial sweat.
Looking at the table you can see that temperature is very important in determining water requirements so what was the temperatures that Earhart and Noonan would have been exposed to if in a raft or on Gardner? The air temperature over the ocean is very constant. According to the U.S. Navy Marine Climatic Atlas of the World. Volume V, South Pacific Ocean (1979) in the area of the Pacific we are concerned with, during the month of July, the temperature stays between 81° F and 84° F for 80% of the time, goes down to 79° F for 10% of the time and all the way up to 86° F for 10% of the time, it never gets any hotter. Of course it might get hotter under the sun back in the brush but not on the sea. You can get similar, but less detailed, weather information from the pilot chart available here.

Look at the table in AFM 64-5 and the line for 80° F and no activity and you find you can last 9 days without any water. You can also see that for every extra quart of water you have you will last another day. So what good is just one pint of water obtained per day? During the nine days you should last without any water your solar still will make 4 1/2 quarts so bringing your survival time up to 13 1/2 days. But in 13 1/2 days the still will make 6 3/4 quarts so you should actually last 15 3/4 days which then makes 7 7/8 quarts so you last 16 7/8 days but then you run out of time so one pint a day adds about 8 days to your survival at 80° F in the desert. Something else you can get from this table is that with one quart a day you can last indefinitely so two stills should keep you alive forever in the desert. The caption under the table points out that it takes two to three times as much water to survive in the desert than it does in other environments, so on a sea shore or at sea a person could survive on only one-half to one-third of the amounts of water listed in this table. On the TV show "I shouldn't be alive," one of the shows was about a guy who survived 76 days, in life raft, all by himself, drifted all the way across the Atlantic and made landfall in the Lesser Antilles. He was hungry and thirsty, he lost a lot of weight, but he was still alive. He had started with three WW2 surplus solar stills but he couldn't figure out how to get them to work so he sacrificed one of them by cutting it open to discover how it worked. He then got enough water from the remaining two stills to last him for 76 days and he was still husbanding a few pints of his sealed emergency water cans when he reached land.

I have also attached a page from the British Special Air Squadron (the SAS) Survival Manual  showing similar information for survivors at sea. According to this manual you can actually survive on even less water, 2 to 8 ounces per day depending on temperature, and 8 ounces is only one-half  of a pint.

So the solar stills developed during WW2 would be able to supply sufficient water to keep people alive for a long time and possibly indefinitely.
gl
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 12:13:06 AM by Gary LaPook »
Logged

Harry Howe, Jr.

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Nuclear Physicist(Ret) Pilot(Ret) Scuba(Ret)
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #301 on: March 04, 2012, 10:54:24 AM »


Gary
I have a Bridge in New York City, I'll sell it to ya for next to nothing  LOL
BS, MS, PhD  Ya know what that stands for?   LOL
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #302 on: March 04, 2012, 03:10:28 PM »


Gary
I have a Bridge in New York City, I'll sell it to ya for next to nothing  LOL
BS, MS, PhD  Ya know what that stands for?   LOL
I'm not sure what you are trying to say and I do know the joke about BS, MS and PHD.
So I take it that you are questioning the information given to our Air Force personnel  in the official survival manual, information that they would be expected to rely on in life threatening situations, have I got this right? So you are setting yourself up as being more expert on this subject than the Air Force experts who drafted this manual after doing research and gathering data, right?

O.K., go for it. What researches have you done in this area? Let me suggest that you start your research by reading  Unbroken which details the survival of two men who lasted in a life raft for 47 days while drifting 2,000 miles across the Pacific, eventually being captured by the Japanese when they reached the Marshalls. The had NO water except the rare rain shower. And also look up Eddie Rickenbacker's story of his crew surviving 21 days in life rafts near the Phoenix islands in similar circumstances. And then there is the experiment conducted by the crew of the Lady Be Good in 1944. Eight crewmen bailed out of a B-24 that had run out of fuel over the blazing hot Libyan desert. They bailed out instead of attempting an emergency landing because they thought they were over the sea. There were eight crewman with only one pint of water between them. Walking in the hot desert with essentially NO water, the table in AFM 64-5 predicts they shouldn't have lasted more than 3 days yet they lasted 6 days and walked 110 miles through the sand desert. So it appears that the table in AFM 64-5 underestimates the time you can survive rather then overestimating it as you apparently believe.
gl
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 02:19:40 AM by Gary LaPook »
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #303 on: March 04, 2012, 03:43:42 PM »

three things  :)

1. They took off from Lae
2. They didn't land at Howland
3. They went South on L.O.P

My Reason to believe No.3

the sun comes up north of L.O.P correct


No, the sun comes up almost due east, only 23 degrees away from directly east.

gl
Logged

Erik

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #304 on: March 04, 2012, 03:53:18 PM »

I'll go with 1:99.  ;)

Sarcastically?  or Respectfully?    :-\
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #305 on: March 04, 2012, 04:26:18 PM »

I'll go with 1:99.  ;)

Sarcastically?  or Respectfully?    :-\
Well it thought that was better than the 1:100 that you suggested. ;)

gl
Logged

Harry Howe, Jr.

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Nuclear Physicist(Ret) Pilot(Ret) Scuba(Ret)
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #306 on: March 04, 2012, 04:40:38 PM »


Gary
They weren't in a temperate zone, they were in an equatorial zone in July.  Their water needs would be more in the area of 1 gallon a day (8 Pints)
Cut it in half and say they only needed 4 pints a day (no activity, no sweating, adequate nutrition, shelter from the sun etc.).  Then they would only have a 3 pint per day deficit.  How long do you think they would survive?

They weren't athletes or servicemen in great shape, they were 40 year olds in average condition.
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
Logged

Erik

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #307 on: March 04, 2012, 05:07:04 PM »


My own experiences, mixed with some feedback from a couple of skydiving friends, as well as some pilots.  One of the skydiving buddies told me it wasn't so much the temperature, but the lack of water training that she should have been most scared of.  He said, "You can drown very quickly if you dont know how to extract yourself properly".  Regardless of water temperature.
I mentioned the drowning risk in my prior post. I checked my logbook and found that I made a total of nine water jumps and I didn't drown, not even once. (I have attached a page showing two of my water jumps.) The only training you get prior to jumping into the water is an oral briefing to slide your butt far back in the harness, undo the snaps on the leg and chest straps, turn the chute so that you are facing into the wind, and when your feet get wet just slide out of the harness and swim straight ahead, upwind, to stay away from the chute. There is no such thing as a "practice" parachute jump, they are all for real. I had lunch with my WW2 B-24 pilot friend today and I asked him what training he had about jumping into the Pacific and he said just an oral briefing covering exactly the same points.

My point is that it doesn't take a lot of training to learn how to use a parachute over the ocean and Earhart had plenty of time and expertise around her to learn this.
gl

"...Earhart had plenty of time and expertise around her to learn this..." 

And plenty of time and expertise to get the ba-jeezuz scared out of her too!  :o

Her comment about 'chutes not doing any good over water wasn't a result of her awareness thinking through all the technical, and facutal permutations we're doing here.  But, rather good 'ole common sense, that jumping out of a plane over open water won't do much good!

Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #308 on: March 04, 2012, 05:12:44 PM »


Gary
They weren't in a temperate zone, they were in an equatorial zone in July.  Their water needs would be more in the area of 1 gallon a day (8 Pints)
Cut it in half and say they only needed 4 pints a day (no activity, no sweating, adequate nutrition, shelter from the sun etc.).  Then they would only have a 3 pint per day deficit.  How long do you think they would survive?

They weren't athletes or servicemen in great shape, they were 40 year olds in average condition.
Neither was Rickenbacker, he was 52 years old, in average shape and NOT a serviceman. He and Zamparini were not in temperate zones, they were in the same area of the Pacific as Earhart was overflying. The Lady Be Good crew landed at about 26 degrees north latitude, the same as Miami Florida, the Arabian Desert and Baja Mexico, places not known for "temperate" climates. And they landed in the desert, not the sea, where very low humidity sucks the moisture out of you so you need more water there, not less, than in the area Earhart was overflying. I have attached a file that will take you to the Lady Be Good location on Google Earth.

So I take it from your response that you DO consider yourself to be more expert in this area than the professionals who drafted the Air Force Survival manual. Again, upon what do you base your claim to expertise in this area? Do you have special training and education in this area? Did you work in this area? Did you publish any peer reviewed articles on this subject? If you conducted any experiments did you use methodologies that are accepted by other experts in this field? What learned treatises did you refer to?

gl
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 01:33:51 AM by Gary LaPook »
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #309 on: March 04, 2012, 05:21:40 PM »



"...Earhart had plenty of time and expertise around her to learn this..." 

And plenty of time and expertise to get the ba-jeezuz scared out of her too!  :o

Her comment about 'chutes not doing any good over water wasn't a result of her awareness thinking through all the technical, and facutal permutations we're doing here.  But, rather good 'ole common sense, that jumping out of a plane over open water won't do much good!
Well there are thousands of people who would disagree with you about it being "common sense" that parachuting into the ocean " won't do much good!" Go talk to WW2 aircrewmen who did just that and lived to tell about it. An attorney friend of mine bailed out of his F-105 over the ocean and I still see him in court. And ask George H. W. Bush whether he agrees with your assessment of "common sense."

So what makes you think that your opinion represents "common sense?"

gl
Logged

Irvine John Donald

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #310 on: March 04, 2012, 05:36:26 PM »

I have to agree with Gary on this one. A parachute, while not a guaranteed life saver, is designed to provide aircrew with a chance of surviving an aircraft crash, either land or water. Whether the pilot chooses to use it in times of emergency is up to the pilot but if you don't have it with you then there is no choice. Carrying a parachute would have been prudent. Over land or water.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 06:55:06 PM by Irvine John Donald »
Logged

Erik

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #311 on: March 04, 2012, 05:48:11 PM »



"...Earhart had plenty of time and expertise around her to learn this..." 

And plenty of time and expertise to get the ba-jeezuz scared out of her too!  :o

Her comment about 'chutes not doing any good over water wasn't a result of her awareness thinking through all the technical, and facutal permutations we're doing here.  But, rather her good 'ole common sense, that jumping out of a plane over open water won't do much good!

So what makes you think that your opinion represents "common sense?"gl

Sorry I wasn't very clear in my "common sense" comment.  Not my opinion.  Rather her opinion.


I'm have to agree with Gary on this one. A parachute, while not a guaranteed life saver, is designed to provide aircrew with a chance of surviving an aircraft crash, either land or water. Whether the pilot chooses to use it it times of emergency is up to the pilot but if you don't have it with you then there is no choice. Carrying a parachute would have been prudent. Over land or water.

I agree.  So why not carry one over land too?  Which is of debate , should it be determined that she did not.  Which is where my "common sense" remark should have been from her perspective, not mine.

Logged

Harry Howe, Jr.

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Nuclear Physicist(Ret) Pilot(Ret) Scuba(Ret)
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #312 on: March 04, 2012, 06:47:38 PM »


Gary
No, I do not consider myself to be an expert in this matter, nor do I consider you to be one either.

There is a Book titled "Games People Play" (I forget the author's name (Eric  Beirne, I think. but I am sure you can find it, I don't have the time nor the inclination to look it up right now)).  In it the author describes a Game called "Yes, but" a variation of which is the sub-game  "I'm right and you're not" which you seem to enjoy.  The author's advice is to not play the Game, so I am opting out of your silly game.  Have fun.
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
Logged

Irvine John Donald

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #313 on: March 04, 2012, 07:27:16 PM »

Gentlemen (Gary and Harry), can we all agree that survival situations have many factors that contribute to the success or failure of the survivalist. Having fresh water is essential.  However how each individual handles the situation varies by individual and the tools at hand.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Did Earhart carry parachutes on the flight to Howland
« Reply #314 on: March 04, 2012, 07:56:37 PM »


Gary
No, I do not consider myself to be an expert in this matter, nor do I consider you to be one either
I'm not claiming to be an expert in how much water is needed to survive, I am only pointing you to the real experts in the Air Force and what they say about this which is different from what you were doing. I also pointed you to several real life examples where people survived a lot longer than you would have predicted for people in their situations.

gl
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 08:09:25 PM by Gary LaPook »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 19 20 [21] 22 23 ... 31   Go Up
 

Copyright 2022 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines Powered by PHP