Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 9   Go Down

Author Topic: Noonan Navigation Error  (Read 134865 times)

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2011, 03:08:46 PM »

An offset lane of 2,500 mls length , to follow during the night without a celestial reference ? How to do that ?
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2011, 03:26:37 PM »

[/size
Let me see if I have this straight.
FN was in the rear of the cabin with his access to the cockpit blocked by gas tanks and no way to communicate with the pilot, AE, except by way of written notes passed back and forth on the ends of a bamboo pole or screaming above the noise of the engines
He had no way to see outside the cabin except thru a window installed on the left side of the plane for the purpose of celestial viewing.  Yet this guy was supposed to be of use to the pilot trying to spot a sliver of land 1000 feet below on the starboard side of the plane in the middle of the ocean?  I think not!

Coming from the SSE they would have arrived over Baker about 20 minutes before Howland (about 70 minutes or so after the offset turn at 0600 Howland 1800 GCT.)  Baker was a little dimple of land in the ocean and certainly would not have provided a place to land, although, if ditching a fuel-starved plane were required, a good pilot might put his plane down near the "dimple" and glided on the water so that the plane stopped with its nose on or close to the shore (such as it was).

The planning of the Lae to Howland leg was atrocious.  The communication between the "Flyers" and the "Watchers" was terrible.  The RDF skills of the pilot were non-existant.  The P&DR was excellent, but remember there was a Sperry AutoGyro autopilot on the plane  "George" (and I don't mean George Putnam) did a great job of flying the plane.  All you pilots will know what I mean by "George".

--------------------------------------------------------

1.There was a window on the right side also, but it was not made out of special flat glass optimized for celestial navigation.

2. On the flight to Hawaii Noonan took 14 celestial observations covering relative bearings on the right side from 36° to 108° and on the left side from 190° to 320°. There is no reason to believe that, had it been necessary, shots could not have been taken further back on the right side than the 108° actually measured. The altitudes varied from 12° all the way up to 75°. I have attached a summary table of these observations.

3. On the flight to Dakar Noonan took a sight from the cockpit of the sun, which was directly in front of them, and measured an altitude of 65° 34'. He took a sight from the back of the plane when the sun had a relative bearing of 320° and a measured altitude of 74° 48'. He took additional observations of the sun through the left window. See: https://sites.google.com/site/fredienoonan/discussions/navigation-to-dakar

4. Noonan moved back and forth from the cockpit to the back of the plane as necessary by crawling over the fuel tanks. Manning also did the same on the flight to Hawaii. Watch the takeoff video at Lae, Noonan climbed into the cockpit through the overhead hatch and would then have had to crawl over the tanks to get to the navigation station. If they thought it was advantageous, then Noonan would have moved into the co-pilot's seat to look for the island.

5. Read the flight navigation references works I referred you to before and then come up with some explanation as to  why Noonan would have followed your plan to intercept the LOP from the southeast, telling us what advantage you see to that longer route than Noonan using the standard procedure which would have had them intercepting from the northwest.

gl
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 04:45:07 PM by Gary LaPook »
Logged

Harry Howe, Jr.

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Nuclear Physicist(Ret) Pilot(Ret) Scuba(Ret)
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2011, 03:34:30 PM »


WOW!   FN crawled over the tops of 4 gas tanks, wiggled his way down into a narrow passageway, then manipulated his way into the co-pilot's seat?  All that, in a noisy, vibratory, gas-smelling environment travelling at about 2-1/2 miles per minute, having had no sleep for many hours.  Are you on some of FN's Benedictine Cognac?

Since you must be the only person in the world who knows where FN was at or near the time of landing approach, maybe you could tell us where the plane ended up?  It was "to be expected" that it would land at Howland.  But, as we all know, it didn't meet expectations.   Stuff Happened.
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
Logged

Harry Howe, Jr.

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Nuclear Physicist(Ret) Pilot(Ret) Scuba(Ret)
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2011, 03:53:30 PM »


Why from the SE?
Maybe because in that direction there was land in the form of McKean, Gardner, Hull, etc while in the NW there was only ocean for nearly 1000 miles around.

Maybe the remains of the plane will be discovered, and recovered.  Maybe the bones will be found and connected to AE or FN.  Until then all is speculation.  But then, a one-word synonym for hypothesis is "conjecture"   

Have a great day..
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2011, 04:29:37 PM »


WOW!   FN crawled over the tops of 4 gas tanks, wiggled his way down into a narrow passageway, then manipulated his way into the co-pilot's seat?  All that, in a noisy, vibratory, gas-smelling environment travelling at about 2-1/2 miles per minute, having had no sleep for many hours.  Are you on some of FN's Benedictine Cognac?

Since you must be the only person in the world who knows where FN was at or near the time of landing approach, maybe you could tell us where the plane ended up?  It was "to be expected" that it would land at Howland.  But, as we all know, it didn't meet expectations.   Stuff Happened.


--------------------------------------
Yep, that's a fact that nobody else disputes. Read Earhart's own book, Last Flight, which shows that on the Dakar leg that Noonan took a sun sight from the cockpit then another sun sight from the back of the plane. I have attached Noonan's handwritten note to prove that. She also says on the Hawaii leg that "Harry (Manning) comes up to work the radio. Paul flies while Harry works over my head."  So, take up your argument with her.

gl
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2011, 04:37:09 PM »


Why from the SE?
Maybe because in that direction there was land in the form of McKean, Gardner, Hull, etc while in the NW there was only ocean for nearly 1000 miles around.

Maybe the remains of the plane will be discovered, and recovered.  Maybe the bones will be found and connected to AE or FN.  Until then all is speculation.  But then, a one-word synonym for hypothesis is "conjecture"   

Have a great day..

-----------------------------------------

That might be a good reason if they were aiming for the Phoenix Islands or if they were just planning to bumble around the Pacific hoping to run into some dry land by accident. But, they were not aiming for the Phoenix Islands, they were going to Howland, and any advantage that you might see to their being closer to the Phoenix Islands goes away as soon as they turn to the northwest along the LOP, flying away from them. Noonan did not just "bumble" around, he navigated so would have kept his course towards Howland, not to the empty space you point to, two hundred NM from land in either direction.

gl
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2011, 04:47:00 PM »


WOW!   FN crawled over the tops of 4 gas tanks, wiggled his way down into a narrow passageway, then manipulated his way into the co-pilot's seat?  All that, in a noisy, vibratory, gas-smelling environment travelling at about 2-1/2 miles per minute, having had no sleep for many hours.  Are you on some of FN's Benedictine Cognac?

Since you must be the only person in the world who knows where FN was at or near the time of landing approach, maybe you could tell us where the plane ended up?  It was "to be expected" that it would land at Howland.  But, as we all know, it didn't meet expectations.   Stuff Happened.

--------------------------------------------

Yep, on the bottom of the ocean.

gl
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2910
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2011, 06:15:07 PM »

WOW!   FN crawled over the tops of 4 gas tanks, wiggled his way down into a narrow passageway, then manipulated his way into the co-pilot's seat?  All that, in a noisy, vibratory, gas-smelling environment travelling at about 2-1/2 miles per minute, having had no sleep for many hours.  Are you on some of FN's Benedictine Cognac?

That is how both AE and FN accessed the lavatory in the rear of the plane and returned from it.

FN had a “limited commercial pilot certificate #11833 with ratings airplane single engine land” (TIGHAR research paper on Noonan).  On takeoff, he was seated in the co-pilot's seat.  He would not have experienced the velocity of the plane as a difficulty.  Airline personnel and passengers routinely navigate the aisles of airplanes traveling much faster than NR16020. 
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2011, 07:04:54 PM »

WOW!   FN crawled over the tops of 4 gas tanks, wiggled his way down into a narrow passageway, then manipulated his way into the co-pilot's seat?  All that, in a noisy, vibratory, gas-smelling environment travelling at about 2-1/2 miles per minute, having had no sleep for many hours.  Are you on some of FN's Benedictine Cognac?

That is how both AE and FN accessed the lavatory in the rear of the plane and returned from it.

FN had a “limited commercial pilot certificate #11833 with ratings airplane single engine land” (TIGHAR research paper on Noonan).  On takeoff, he was seated in the co-pilot's seat.  He would not have experienced the velocity of the plane as a difficulty.  Airline personnel and passengers routinely navigate the aisles of airplanes traveling much faster than NR16020.

----------------------------------------------------

Good point! That is the winning argument!

gl
Logged

Harry Howe, Jr.

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Nuclear Physicist(Ret) Pilot(Ret) Scuba(Ret)
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2011, 09:26:16 PM »


I wouldn't equate "navigating the aisle" with climbing up onto gas tanks, crawling over 4 of them, lowering myself  down into  a narrow space , and getting myself into the right seat.  But then, what do I know?
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
Logged

Jeff Scott

  • T2
  • **
  • Posts: 93
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2011, 10:31:17 PM »


Since you must be the only person in the world who knows where FN was at or near the time of landing approach, maybe you could tell us where the plane ended up?

--------------------------------------------

Yep, on the bottom of the ocean.

gl

Gary--I'm curious if you have any thoughts on approximately where the plane would have most likely ended up on the bottom of the ocean.  Given your detailed analyses of Noonan's navigation techniques and theories on what he would have advised Earhart to do as their ill-fated flight drew to a close, have you reached any conclusions on where they most likely would have gone down?  Further, do you have any ideas on why the multiple searches of the sea floor around Howland haven't found anything?

I'd appreciate your insights!
It's not too late to be great.
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2011, 10:48:46 PM »

.

I say apparently, because the game she found herself in on July 2 seemed to have required actions beyond her knowing, and she must have used RDF effectively enough at times before.  Or, perhaps she was reliant on others for that and the posing for pictures was little more than that - posing as if attentive to the task in a meaningful way.  Poor creature paid a terrible price for that shortcoming.

LTM -

------------------------------------------------------------


2. The only use of the RDF by Earhart that I know of was Noonan's instruction to her to "keep the Makapuu beacon ten degrees on the starboard bow" as they approached Hawaii. But Manning was working the radio and most likely set up the RDF for her so the only thing she needed to do was to listen for the null as she changed the heading slightly right and left.


gl

------------------------------------

We know the answer to this question.
Earhart states in her book, Last Flight, that in following Noonan's instruction to her to "keep the Makapuu beacon ten degrees on the starboard bow" as they approached Hawaii with approximately 200 miles to go, that "This was the first time that I had used this recently developed Bendix instrument."

She also says on the Hawaii leg that "Harry (Manning) comes up to work the radio. Paul flies while Harry works over my head" so it appears also that Manning tuned the RDF for her and set its controls so that all she had to do was listen for the null.
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2011, 11:15:13 PM »

If mr.Noonan saw sunrise from 1,000 ft altitude @ 1752:38 GMT and counted off 2m15s for actual sunrise @ 1754:53 , there is a good chance that the positon line they arrived on runs 10 miles west of Howland´s then charted position , and A/c has supposedly alighted when on that line . Several manuals of the era contain prescription how to establish longitude @ sunset and sunrise when at sea .
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2011, 02:48:26 AM »

It is hardly to believe that a pilot goes to a lavatory in the back of his plane by crawling over tanks , leaving all controls alone , even with automatic pilot instruments or an (unlicensed)  stand in . Pilots do not even think about that . There are good questions having no answer ...
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2011, 02:50:24 AM »

If mr.Noonan saw sunrise from 1,000 ft altitude @ 1752:38 GMT and counted off 2m15s for actual sunrise @ 1754:53 , there is a good chance that the positon line they arrived on runs 10 miles west of Howland´s then charted position , and A/c has supposedly alighted when on that line . Several manuals of the era contain prescription how to establish longitude @ sunset and sunrise when at sea .

-----------------------------------------------------------

We have thoroughly discussed Mr. van Asten's theories on the  Navigating the LOP with the offset method topic, see:

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,169.120.html

starting with reply 120

and subsequent posts, especially reply 203 pointing out his 300 NM error in his computation of this "10 mile" error line and his admission of this error in reply 204.

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,169.203.html

Mr. van Asten has never produced any cite to any contemporary flight navigation text book or manual supporting his method and his theories about determining longitude at sunrise in spite of my many requests for such support. To be fair, he did point me to a 1986 marine navigation book entitled Emergency Navigation (which I have on my bookshelf) which describes hundreds of emergency navigation methods and that does mention his method but also contains the warning that this method only produces a longitude with, at best,  an uncertainty of plus and minus twenty minutes of longitude, a band 40 NM wide, and also possibly much greater errors. Due to additional factors involved in flight navigation, any attempt to use the method in Emergency Navigation in flight would produce a much larger band of uncertainty. This method would not produce a longitude with the precision necessary to find Howland even if used by a navigator on a ship. After all, the method is mentioned in a book entitled Emergency Navigation meaning that it may be useful in an emergency when it is better than nothing. I'm pretty certain that Noonan never read this book.

Read Mr. van Asten's submissions at your own risk.

gl

gl


« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 03:30:04 AM by Gary LaPook »
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 9   Go Up
 

Copyright 2018 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Powered by PHP