Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9]   Go Down

Author Topic: Noonan Navigation Error  (Read 128901 times)

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #120 on: September 11, 2011, 02:17:42 PM »

Navigator´s Information File , Section 3 , § 7 - 1 .

So it's just one manual, not "the manuals."  When published?  If you're suggesting that it is something that may have influenced Noonan on July 2, 1937 it has to be published prior to that date.
----------------------------

1944, see attached excerpt.
---------------------------------------

See

Reply #50 on

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,452.45.html

This is from reply # 50


"BTW, this photo also illustrates why you can't determine an LOP at sunrise. For you to time an accurate sunrise you must be able to see the actual blue sea horizon edge of the earth to measure the edge of the sun against and to take an accurate time. A one minute error in timing of a celestial observation results in a fifteen nautical mile error in the resulting computed longitude. This photo was taken on a day with really good weather but the clouds are obstructing the sea horizon so a sunrise observation would not have been possible and there is reason to believe that the weather was worse north and west of Howland on July 2nd. See: https://sites.google.com/site/fredienoonan/discussions/the-myth-of-the-sunrise-lop



gl




« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 10:41:34 PM by Gary LaPook »
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #121 on: September 11, 2011, 02:55:34 PM »

I do not claim "rescuers" , but it is clear , qualitate qua , and separating details from headlines , that searching along a line is more productive than searching at random , so if on a line and in distress : stay where you are is the word .
-------------------------------------------
Just scroll up on this topic to van Asten's reply# 105 and you will see that he did "claim rescuers", this is just another example  of Mr. van Asten's prevarications. Also scroll up to reply # 118. For those who might have come in late, see my prior post at:

reply # 45 on the
Celestial choir / Re: LOP-Possible stupid question
« on: August 25, 2011, 02:47:31 PM »

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,440.45.html

I had been asked my opinion on whether one should read Mr. van Asten's two published papers.

The following is from that post:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Don't waste your time trying to work your way through the gibberish in Mr. van Asten's two published papers.


We have thoroughly discussed Mr. van Asten's theories on the  "Navigating the LOP with the offset method" topic, see:

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,169.120.html

starting with reply 120

and subsequent posts, especially reply 203 pointing out his 300 NM error in his computation of this "10 mile" error line and his admission of this error in reply 204.

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,169.203.html

We have also dicussed Mr van Asten's theories on the "Noonan navigation error" thread starting at reply 47 and continuing through reply 80.

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,383.45.html

The short answer, I can't believe he got his articles published because they are so full of errors. He wrote that he had a surface navigator review his papers prior to publication and I told him his problem was that he didn't have the papers reviewed by  a flight navigator, the procedures are quite different.

Here are links to better articles.

http://www.oceannavigator.com/content/celestial-air

http://www.avweb.com/news/avtraining/IFR_bySunAndStars_200781-1.html




gl
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 03:42:53 AM by Gary LaPook »
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #122 on: September 11, 2011, 11:50:11 PM »

Why would rescuers be "claimed" ? The NIF texts do not contain the rescue item , but it is clear from itself that if you leave the line you are flying along , without having definite coordinates , you obstruct future rescue operations , especially if no flight plan has been left behind @ departure .
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #123 on: September 12, 2011, 01:38:18 AM »

Why would rescuers be "claimed" ? The NIF texts do not contain the rescue item , but it is clear from itself that if you leave the line you are flying along , without having definite coordinates , you obstruct future rescue operations , especially if no flight plan has been left behind @ departure .
---------------------------------

Yes, why indeed did you write those words? Scroll up to reply # 105 and read those words that you wrote.

gl
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 03:53:26 AM by Gary LaPook »
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #124 on: September 12, 2011, 02:28:09 AM »

Yes the rescue supposition was an addition of myself , being the assumed rescue feature self evident ; remember that there are essentials and inessentials .
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #125 on: September 12, 2011, 08:17:31 AM »

I remember Einstein when a journalist said to him that at least fifty scientists could his special relativity theory easily grind down . Albert´s answer : If so , one would have been enough .
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5260
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #126 on: September 12, 2011, 08:35:34 AM »

Yes the rescue supposition was an addition of myself , being the assumed rescue feature self evident ; remember that there are essentials and inessentials .

One of the essentials of this forum is intellectual honesty.  I have asked Marty to remove you from the forum.
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #127 on: September 12, 2011, 10:17:00 AM »

  ?? I do not see anything wrong , I was giving a partial overview of a NIF paragraph with the addition that staying on a line is in favor of future rescue parties , is that forbidden ?
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5260
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #128 on: September 12, 2011, 10:22:52 AM »

  ?? I do not see anything wrong , I was giving a partial overview of a NIF paragraph with the addition that staying on a line is in favor of future rescue parties , is that forbidden ?

Baloney. You wrote: "Generally it is in the manuals prescribed not to leave a position line once you are on it for the sake of rescuers having a guideline."

By your own admission that was an intentional outright falsehood.  Good bye Mr. Van Asten.
Logged

Anthony Allen Roach

  • T2
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #129 on: July 09, 2012, 01:16:54 PM »

Is there a way to move the posts regarding the discussion of black smoke making by USCGC Itasca to its own thread?  I have comments regarding smoke based on my experience as an engineer in the Navy, but do not want to contribute to thread drift.
"Six the Hard Way."
 
Logged

Bruce Thomas

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 643
  • Now where did I put my glasses?
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #130 on: July 09, 2012, 01:22:02 PM »

Is there a way to move the posts regarding the discussion of black smoke making by USCGC Itasca to its own thread?  I have comments regarding smoke based on my experience as an engineer in the Navy, but do not want to contribute to thread drift.

Anthony, why don't you do the honors by starting a new topic about the smoke and post what it is you want to comment on.  If you have the need, you can provide links to any other posts that you need to.  There's no need for you to wait for someone else to set up a thread for you.
LTM,

Bruce
TIGHAR #3123R
 
Logged

Lloyd Manley

  • T1
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #131 on: July 02, 2013, 05:01:24 PM »

I want to know why the flight was so far south? Noonan was an "expert navigator" and was very professional in his work. So How could he have been so far off? Unless in the late 30's that was considered accureate navigating?

My opinion? If the plane is at Gardner there is only one likely explanation. Dead reckoning, using the techniques available at that time, would generate up to about a 10% deflection in latitude, even with a good sun line. Over 2500 miles this is 250 miles. FN most likely was not able to get a celestial fix during the night, for whatever reason. When the sun rose, he got an LOP. And that makes sense b/c that is all AE reported as far as position. But only one celestial object (the sun) means only an LOP with little or no information on latitude. It's not an exact fix. At the end of this dead reckoning run he was 250 miles south, southeast of Howland and 100 miles north, northwest of Gardner. They might have circled for a few minutes. Then they might have turned north for 50 miles on the LOP, then turned south for 100 miles and ran out of gas as they approached Gardner. This seems like the simplest explanation to me, and it doesn't require any more flying time than Elgen Long allows, much less than the TIGHAR hypothesis does. When her last words were heard ... "wait", was shortly before she probably saw what looked like ... Gardner island.

Then they died on the reef from injuries sustained from a witchy landing, exposure or some combination of both. What few transmissions were made were done off of battery power. Just one hypothesis. But I like it. ;-)
And I came up with this trying to figure out how they ended up so far south b/c that puzzles me, too.
Logged

Monty Fowler

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • "The real answer is always the right answer."
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #132 on: July 03, 2013, 06:16:35 AM »

All well and good, Lloyd, but you may want to read up on the chances of those post-loss radio transmissions being generated solely by battery power.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
Logged

Don M Casillas

  • T1
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #133 on: July 07, 2013, 08:25:51 PM »

Monty; As I remember, for the radio transmissions to occur there had to be one engine running. As I remember those radio transmissions went on for 5 days so trying to transmit just on battery power would not be possible, as I understand anyway.
Logged

JNev

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 778
  • It's a GOOD thing to be in the cornfield...
Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #134 on: July 15, 2013, 11:17:45 AM »

Monty; As I remember, for the radio transmissions to occur there had to be one engine running. As I remember those radio transmissions went on for 5 days so trying to transmit just on battery power would not be possible, as I understand anyway.

This may help as a start.
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9]   Go Up
 

Copyright 2018 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Powered by PHP