Hello All,
This is my first post to the Amelia Earhart Search Forum. I should introduce myself briefly by saying I've been a member of the Earhart Project Advisory Committee for more than 2 years.
http://tighar.org/wiki/Earhart_Project_Advisory_CommitteeIn between a demanding work and travel schedule, I try to help Ric, Tom King, TIGHAR and the whole team to examine and interpret the strands of evidence gained by TIGHAR's work on Nikumaroro. My specialty has been interpreting glass artifacts. I've been known to venture an opinion on just about anything. Recent posts on the jar seem to require additional detail I may be able to help provide. I will try to fill in some gaps and respond to objections and queries as best I can. What I will say is, of course, subject to modification by those more expert than myself, but I'd like to begin with the quotations below from August 19, 2012.
Well I suggested that perhaps it was once more opaque and Ric said he talked with collectors who said that Milk glass would not turn clear. Never mentioned there were other milk glass examples that were practically clear to begin with. Case closed, and the reason we have all been looking for clear glass. Have we all been looking for a clear jar that never existed? Maybe.
- We have evidence we will be presenting, based on elemental analysis, that suggests the jar is not clear. Obviously, it's not white either. We will be presenting this information in an upcoming report.
So it appears this jar was either a very early pre WWI example or Ric's advice from collectors was incorrect, and it indeed faded to clear (maybe after being mostly clear to begin with). In fact one chemist on another article suggested just that. That milk glass made of tin and antimony would probably change color if heated in a fire pit.
- I've personally inspected the jar. I see no signs of heat damage. It has a consistency of appearance that suggest to me it has not been heated, in my opinion.
You should provide more evidence of your claim the jar could not have been made after World War I. The only thing a 1918 trade journal ad with opal jars proves is the jar was made in 1918. Any one-year source has little meaning for any other year.
I don't know. I am not a chemist, nor have I conducted heat tests on milk glass.
But I think it should have been done.
- We thought about heating some milk glass samples but have not yet done so. Other lab-based experiments that appeared to be more revealing in prospect took precedence. You are welcome to conduct these experiments if you'd like to assist us.
I think that is the only option left if this is to be a relevant artifact dated to the right period. Either it was weak milk glass that turned clear and could have been Earharts, or it was clear glass all along, and has no connection with Earhart as the bottle would be too old.
- The older it is, the lower the odds the castaway brought the jar, but unless the jar was made after spring 1940, those odds never reach zero. We have some interesting lab results we think may give us a better idea of the jar's production date range. We will be presenting this information in an upcoming report.
I do find these announcements made to the press too early to be concerning. For instance when it was first found, all newspaper articles said Dr.Berrys was the ONLY glass found that matched this jar. The implications was there. This was a Dr. Berrys. There was no mention of 6 other products. I didn't find that on any press release by any news agencies. I found that information here and by doing some quick googling in a week.
- I asked Randy Conrad to post the other products here for you to read about. I researched and found several products the jar may have contained in addition to Dr. Berry's Freckle Ointment. We informed Discovery of these products prior to their printing their first story on the freckle ointment connection. They chose not to mention them. Since all of these products were women's cosmetic products, they probably felt they were reporting what was most newsworthy about the story, which was the possible freckle ointment connection. They had every right to do this. TIGHAR does not control what media outlets say. TIGHAR reports accurately what it knows usually very soon after it knows something. The best source for TIGHAR information is nearly always this website.
As late as last month, newspaper reports said that not only did this product match Dr.Berrys', it was the ONLY item found that contained mercury.
Again not true. I brought up Velvetine which was a skin lightener, and skin lighteners contained mercury. Same jar style, shape and size and also opaque.
- This claim is large and could use some substantiation. Had you said this on EPAC it would have generated discussion for a week or more. Do you have a photo of the ad in question?
Yet There is Breaking news, right now on this site, from Mr.Cerniglia that Dr.Berrys was the ONLY product that used this jar and contained Mercury. NOT TRUE! I am not sure if the theory is if it's repeated long enough it makes it true. How many times has he told this to some gullible reporter?
- I said it was the only product that we know contained mercury that was also sold in the same style jar. If the media reported otherwise, it was not what I stated, but I believe they quoted me exactly in this instance. Your statement above appears to distort what the media stated by conflating two separate stories into one. Ric asked me to prepare a summary of what we had learned recently, and I complied with his request.
How many news stories have been done stating the same.
So the Mr C. is to this day putting out incorrect information in press releases and interviews possibly. Not good.
- See above. I stand behind my statements.
In the beginning of this thread it was suggested that the example be tested for mercury on any residue remaining. Ric said there was no residue to test for mercury.
So there is no residue, but finally 2 years later the glass is tested for mercury? If there is no residue, how can the glass itself show mercury?
A scientist, Greg George from Sherry Labs in Oklahoma, read the story about the freckle ointment and stated in a comment thread on the Discovery website that further testing we had neither considered nor known was possible could be conducted. I contacted Greg, and the result is what you have heard. You'll be hearing much more soon. We've collected much new information, thanks to Greg. This is the scientific method, slow, laborious and deliberative, but it works. We as TIGHAR researchers don't claim to know everything when we release information. You're watching the process unfold and, we hope, assisting us as well.
Glass is inert, and I do not believe it absorbs the surrounding elements.
- Greg informed us, in some cases, it does absorb some surrounding elements. More later.
But it took all this time to test it?
And it was tested by a guy who just happened to hear the story and took it upon himself to do some testing?
- I know it may be a surprise to you, but this really happened.
I understand budget constraints, but seems like the artifact evidence is being analyzed haphazardly, if at all, some by volunteers who happen to read a news story. Some by Tighar forum members.
- We're not NASA or the CIA. What you stated is true, except for the haphazard part. We're dedicated people doing the best we can.
I think all the science should be done professionally, and an exhaustive search done for any clear bottles
- Do you believe we're not trying?
, also testing to find whether an opaque bottle heated to near red changes color(not just relying on the word of a glass collector), and finally any other known examples shared with the public as well.
Like I said, I understand budget constraints, this is being done on a shoestring compared to the navy sponsoring Dr.Ballard, but It took Joe.C two years to find the above ad from National Druggist in 1921 that this jar was produced in opaque only?
- Incorrect. I found that National Druggist ad in early 2011, a few days after spotting the freckle ointment as a possible match to the jar, and I then shared it with EPAC. TIGHAR shares its most relevant findings from EPAC, but we couldn't possibly share every discussion, observation or research work we generate. The EPAC, upon seeing the ads, came to a somewhat different conclusion than you did concerning this ad.
I have been looking at jars for a week and found these same references in Google books.
So not to discredit Mr.Cerniglias work, he is probably working for nothing, but a lot of press releases were made that this was the only bottle found that matched this shape, now it's released to the public, Dr.Berrys was the only bottle found of this shape that had mercury.
It seems like folks wanted to believe something and released it as news, because neither of those press releases were exactly correct.
Now, like the movie JFK, the internet stories have been done with an incorrect version of the truth. you can't take it back. There are a lot of people out there who think that absolutely a mercury containing freckle cream from Dr.Berrys has been found with an exact bottle that matched the time of the flight.
Not proven. Do the science right, take your time, then do the press release.
- I believe this is precisely what we are trying to do.
Just my opinion and probably not a popular one, so shoot away.
I still believe Gardner is it based on the radio transmits, but this glass stuff was put out way too early before testing and exhaustive archive research and it creates a perception that may be invalid, and once that perception is put out there by NBC, CNN, Discovery, its tough to modify it.
Otherwise, if new information does come up, it looks like Tighar wasnt professional or thorough enough and raises credibility doubts.
- If we waited until we had perfect knowledge, the public would lose interest and TIGHAR's mission would weaken and wane. True, a balance must be found between anxiously reporting too soon and waiting too long. TIGHAR is not supported by the government or by foundations but by people like you and me. I think it strikes the right balance.
(Not from me I hasten to add, but there are rumblings out there even Ric and Tighar members are keenly aware of).
- I hope I've responded to some of the rumblings. I agree you are probably not the only individual who has felt or voiced these concerns. I hope that this message might provide some alternative points of view for you to consider.
Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078CER