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Author Topic: 10E c/n 1042  (Read 16312 times)

Gary Holbrook

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2017, 04:04:05 PM »

Mr. Moleski,

Please tell me that you are kidding.  How can I or anyone else prove a negative?  That would be like me challenging you to prove that you never cheated on your wife (assuming you are married).  This website is supposed to be dedicated to "serving as a voice for integrity, responsibility, and professionalism in the field of aviation historic preservation."  On July 26, 2016, Ric Gillespie plainly stated "Grace McGuire has been rebuilding this beast since she bought it back in the 1970s after it had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire."  My response to you an others that continue to subscribe to that mindset is simply this: Prove It. Prove it prove it prove it.

In my personal opinion, you are helping dig the hole even deeper on the fact that misinformation about this Lockheed 10-E has been placed on this site, and by a member of the Board of Directors, no less.  Do all the research that you can, and show me any evidence whatsoever that there was a hangar fire in the Orlando area in during the 3 years in question, and show me where it states that a Lockheed 10-E was severely damaged.  A story of this nature must have made the news in the local Orlando area newspapers, yes?

Has anyone from TIGHAR even seen this aircraft up close and personal, must less put their hands on it, ever?  So far, all I have been reading appears to be based on supposition and conjecture.  Did TIGHAR even have a clue that there was a brief engine fire when the 10-E was based in Barnwell, and before it was flown to the Orlando area?  Once again and so far, the answer appears to be "no".  It was common knowledge at both the Raeford and Barnwell DZs that this event took place, mainly because the running joke was that Bobby Frierson (Barnwell) called Gene Paul Thacker (Raeford) and told him that his (Gene Paul's) side of the aircraft caught fire.  That was the extent of it.

I guess at the end of the day TIGHAR can take one of 2 directions; either the power-to-be can admit that they made a huge mistake about the history of Lockheed 10-E c/n 1042, or they can continue to blatantly push a completely false and unproven narrative.  The choice is yours.  Skydive.

Gary Holbrook
 
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Greg Daspit

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2017, 05:17:27 PM »

What I know about Grace McGuire and c/n 1042 is based mostly on personal recollection (and we all know how reliable that is).  It's a sad story and worth telling, but we have to be sure we have it right.  Can anyone find some good source material?

This quote from the first post seems like an honest statement and is why more research was requested.
After Marty posted some research Ric said:
"No mention of a hangar fire, so apparently I was wrong about that."
3971R
 
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2017, 06:44:21 PM »

Please tell me that you are kidding.  How can I or anyone else prove a negative?  That would be like me challenging you to prove that you never cheated on your wife (assuming you are married).

Some negatives are easier to prove than others.  I have a fairly long article on the subject on my website.

I am not now and never have been married.

That is a pretty provable negative, although it would take a fair amount of time and money to establish it beyond a reasonable doubt.

That I could not prove I never cheated on my wife, if I had a wife, is, of course, a more difficult proposition.

Finding someone who knew the museum between 1979 and 1982 would be difficult, but not on the same scale as that.

Quote
On July 26, 2016, Ric Gillespie plainly stated "Grace McGuire has been rebuilding this beast since she bought it back in the 1970s after it had nearly burned up in a Florida hangar fire."  My response to you an others that continue to subscribe to that mindset is simply this: Prove It. Prove it prove it prove it.

I am not in a position to prove the truth of Ric's statement.  He can defend himself, or not, as he chooses. 

All I have attempted to do is to show that there is a time about which you do not have personal experience or witness testimony.  Furthermore, the decay of the ship at the museum in Florida seems to be beyond a "reasonable" doubt.  You have described how it was "gutted."  Grace tells how it was left to "rot" outdoors and was slated to be destroyed.  That, in turn, means that it is not an aircraft whose interior can answer questions that TIGHAR has about the original interior of NR16020.

Quote
In my personal opinion, you are helping dig the hole even deeper on the fact that misinformation about this Lockheed 10-E has been placed on this site, and by a member of the Board of Directors, no less.  Do all the research that you can, and show me any evidence whatsoever that there was a hangar fire in the Orlando area in during the 3 years in question, and show me where it states that a Lockheed 10-E was severely damaged.  A story of this nature must have made the news in the local Orlando area newspapers, yes?

No.  Stuff happens.  Some of it gets into the newspapers; some doesn't.

Quote
Has anyone from TIGHAR even seen this aircraft up close and personal, must less put their hands on it, ever?

Not me.  I don't know about other TIGHAR members.

Quote
So far, all I have been reading appears to be based on supposition and conjecture.  Did TIGHAR even have a clue that there was a brief engine fire when the 10-E was based in Barnwell, and before it was flown to the Orlando area?  Once again and so far, the answer appears to be "no".  It was common knowledge at both the Raeford and Barnwell DZs that this event took place, mainly because the running joke was that Bobby Frierson (Barnwell) called Gene Paul Thacker (Raeford) and told him that his (Gene Paul's) side of the aircraft caught fire.  That was the extent of it.

OK.  So there was a story of a fire associated with this aircraft.  Thanks for providing that information.  It's news to me.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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Alfred Hendrickson

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10E c/n 1042
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2017, 10:56:44 AM »

Thanks for all the posts. I always enjoy reading this type of discussion.
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Alfred Hendrickson

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2017, 12:25:02 PM »

As you know, this plane is now in Atchison, KS. I received an invite from the Atchison Amelia Earhart Foundation to go see it on July on their Festival Weekend. Sigh. I'd love to see that plane, but it's a long ways from my place in Sheridan, Wyoming.

Link here:

https://atchisonameliaearhartfoundation.org/2017/06/13/muriel-viewing-festival-weekend/#comments

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Gary Holbrook

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2017, 07:55:18 AM »

Once again for the sake of clarification an/or accuracy, it would be great to see some sort of documentation that the following statement submitted by Mr. Gillespie is actually correct; "We were not successful, but in the course of those discussions I learned that United Technologies had planned to fund Grace McGuire's proposed re-enactment of Earhart's flight using cn 1042 until they learned that Grace did not have a multi-engine rating."

According to an online article posted by Air & Space Magazine (an adjunct of the Smithsonian Institution's National Air and Space Museum), the reason is stated as such:  "In 1983, along came Grace McGuire, who dreamed of reenacting Earhart’s flight. Searching for a 10E, she found a basket case at a Christie’s auction. United Technologies (parent company of Pratt & Whitney, which had made the Electra’s engines) heard of her plan and offered to restore the 10E to flying condition. Once the aircraft was evaluated, however, it was plain that the project would bust its budget."

http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/lockheed-electra-10a-5653285/

Can anyone offer up any documentation or additional information, either way, to help clear up this obvious discrepancy?  Thanks.




Gary Holbrook
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2017, 10:36:05 AM »

Can anyone offer up any documentation or additional information, either way, to help clear up this obvious discrepancy?  Thanks.

I was reporting what was told to me by the Pratt & Whitney VP for Communications in September, 1997.  I was pushing to get sponsorship for our project and he was explaining to me why I was getting nowhere. "We're out of the Amelia Earhart business."   The McGuire affair was an embarrassment and had soured the company on sponsoring Amelia Earhart projects.
 
It's not clear where the writer of the 2004 Air & Space article got his version of the story.  The only informant he quotes is Bill Taylor. I knew Bill. Great guy. He was the mechanic in charge of restoring c/n 1052 for the New England Air Museum.  Bill died about two years ago.
The Air & Space article has some inaccuracies. For example,

"In 1934 this particular Electra, a 10A, serial no. 1052, rolled off the Lockheed assembly line in Burbank, California,..."    In fact, 1052 was delivered February 19, 1936. 

"United Technologies (parent company of Pratt & Whitney, which had made the Electra’s engines) heard of her plan and offered to restore the 10E to flying condition."
This makes it sound like UT approached McGuire.  According to the P&W executive I spoke to, that's not what happened. Corporate sponsorships almost never happen that way.  You go to them. They don't come to you.

"In 1984, United Technologies bought Dolph Overton’s 10A and got to work."
I saw the airplane when it was still in the Lisbon, CT hangar (see photo below).  Nobody "got to work" on 1052 until it went to Windsor Locks in 1994. 

"Then McGuire fell ill with Lyme disease, and United Technologies changed management and ditched the McGuire project."
When I was first in touch with Grace she was still living in Rumson, NJ. I don't remember the year, but it had to be after 1988 when we began our Earhart investigation. United Technologies was already long out of the picture and she had not yet been diagnosed with Lyme.

Grace McGuire's hostility toward TIGHAR had nothing to do with my mistaken belief that her plane had been damaged in a fire. She disagreed with our theory.  She was, and probably still is, convinced that AE crashed and sank because she had the wrong lat/long coordinates for Howland.

It may be possible to find out if Grace McGuire ever held a multi-engine rating. 




« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 10:43:43 AM by Ric Gillespie »
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Gary Holbrook

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2017, 11:57:09 AM »

Hi Ric,

I do appreciate your response.  I am sure that we are both aware that at times, "history" is passed along and written by authors that may either have agendas in mind, or based on their personal point of view, agreed?  Here are 2 links that appear to either dispute or challenge the information that you just posted above.

According to this article, Grace was approached by an "international company" after an appearance on Good Morning America. Would that international company possibly be United Technologies?:

https://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=176

According to this online article, Grace McGuire appeared to have full-blown Lyme Disease as early as 1984:

http://www1.gmnews.com/2000/11/08/more-than-a-flight-of-fancy-rumson-pilot-restoring-plane-in-hopes-of-re-creating-amelia-earharts-journey/

I also frequent forums that deal with both my past and present hobbies.  As we all know, it's extremely common for "facts" to be stated in these forums that may or may not be correct.  Thus the expression "buyer beware". However, on a forum such as this on the TIGHAR website, and when historical information is posted (especially by one of the Executive Directors/Administrators), it would be prudent for that information, if indeed stated as fact, be verified as being truthful.  From my point of view, TIGHAR's Mission Statement calls for nothing less.
Gary Holbrook
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2017, 12:35:33 PM »

According to this online article, Grace McGuire appeared to have full-blown Lyme Disease as early as 1984:

And yet, the first article you cited says, "It was now the mid-l980's, and Grace had become very ill. Like many victims of Lyme disease, she was diagnosed with, and treated for, everything EXCEPT Lyme disease." 
Sometime later "Grace had become so ill she was hospitalized. Incompetent doctors had no clue as to what her problem really was. She suffered bouts of blindness, meningitis, encephalitis, paralysis, muscle spasms, crushing head pain, a heart murmur, and profound fatigue and weakness. The diagnosis was probable multiple sclerosis AND Lyme disease."

She was not hospitalized when I talked to her.

Trying to sort out the timeline of McGuire's story is complicated by the many contradictions in the various accounts.  We could probably do it with enough effort but her story has no bearing on our investigation, nor does her airplane.  We have many conversations about a wide range of subjects on this forum.  We don't always get everything right but we do make corrections when find out that we got something wrong.   



http://www1.gmnews.com/2000/11/08/more-than-a-flight-of-fancy-rumson-pilot-restoring-plane-in-hopes-of-re-creating-amelia-earharts-journey/

I also frequent forums that deal with both my past and present hobbies.  As we all know, it's extremely common for "facts" to be stated in these forums that may or may not be correct.  Thus the expression "buyer beware". However, on a forum such as this on the TIGHAR website, and when historical information is posted (especially by one of the Executive Directors/Administrators), it would be prudent for that information, if indeed stated as fact, be verified as being truthful.  From my point of view, TIGHAR's Mission Statement calls for nothing less.
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2017, 05:09:34 PM »

Looks like Grace McGuire did have a Commercial Multi-Engine ticket, and also a single engine flight instructor rating. 

Commercial rating is dated 7/21/83, but her last medical was 4/1992 so maybe the lack of medical became an issue.  Edit - Oops, I mis-read the date.

Andrew



« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 05:51:24 PM by Andrew M McKenna »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2017, 07:31:03 PM »

Looks like Grace McGuire did have a Commercial Multi-Engine ticket, and also a single engine flight instructor rating. 

But when did she get her Multi-engine rating?  Her Commercial ticket was issued 7/21/83. Did she already her Instrument and Multi ratings or did they come later?  It was a year or two after I got my Commercial license before I got my Instrument and then another several months before I scrounged enough money to get my Multi.
United Technologies supposedly got involved in 1983 but it's not clear what year they bailed.
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Gloria Walker Burger

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2017, 10:20:20 PM »

Under Martin Moleski's first post in this thread is a link to an interview with Grace McGuire. In the interview she said:

"Original documents examined by McGuire and others suggested that Earhart and her navigator, Fred Noonan, were given the wrong coordinates for the tiny island they were trying to reach when they vanished.

The flight plan showing the location of Howland Island, deep in the Pacific, was off by seven miles. McGuire believes the mistake may have made the difference between life and death."

Does anyone know of these documents?
Gloria
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2017, 06:24:50 AM »

The flight plan showing the location of Howland Island, deep in the Pacific, was off by seven miles. McGuire believes the mistake may have made the difference between life and death."

Yes.

Often discussed.

The correction location was known by the US Coast Guard and was communicated to AE and FN.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2017, 07:06:48 AM »

There is also this:  By TIGHAR's assessment, the aircraft was never within 100 miles of Howland.  Even if Earhart somehow did not receive the island's corrected position, a five mile discrepancy wouldn't have mattered.
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Gloria Walker Burger

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Re: 10E c/n 1042
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2017, 09:29:02 PM »

Thank you so much for that information! Especially since I missed the previous discussions on this.
Gloria
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