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Author Topic: Can you explain what these little clips might be?  (Read 80071 times)

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« on: July 22, 2009, 05:46:33 PM »

Two small handmade clips were found at the Seven site. 

Have you ever seen something like this? 


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           Marty
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2009, 01:45:30 PM »

Robert Blevins wrote Ric:

"Your item, 26S03B, the bent piece with the screw and the jagged edge, looks quite like an item used in old furniture construction, especially dining tables. I have seen items almost identical to this on old thrift store furniture pieces. I can't remember exactly how they're used, but they are out of sight on the furniture, beneath a table top, for example."

                         Marty
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           Marty
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Jay Burkett

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2009, 08:01:11 PM »

The serrations are meant to "bite" into wood.  The screws are wood screws.  I have also seen this type of hardware before --- I just can't remember where!  I seem to remember seeing them on specialty wooden storage boxes at some hamfest.  Who knows what those boxes were used for.  Perhaps laboratory or optical test equipment? 
Jay Burkett, N4RBY
Aerospace Engineer
Fairhope AL
 
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Alfred Hendrickson

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2009, 09:29:29 AM »


"And he puzzled and puzzed, 'til his puzzler was sore . . . " (from "How the Grinch Stole Christmas")

I have puzzled over those clips for a long time. Have not had a "Eureka!" moment yet. Those things annoy me!
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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2010, 09:44:21 AM »

Hi,

For all I can observe, looking at the pictures, the little serrated plates are certainly not hand-made but cut out by a machine. IF they are aluminium (which I doubt), the serrations cannot be meant to be pushed or hammered into any hard wood, the aluminium being too soft for that.

IF these are were indeed meant to prevent a piece of wood of moving in regard to another, there would not be many ways to attach them to the piece of wood holding them before "use".

One possibility I am thinking of is that the little plate would be screwed to piece wood "A", with only the serrated part protruding over the edge. Since the wood screws are about 25 mm long, piece of wood "A" would have to be at least 30 mm thick. I am thinking of a thick plank here.
The second hole in the "plank" wold then also receive a screw or a nail to prevent the little plate to pivot around the screw.

The piece of wood "B" that had would have to have the serrations "bite" into, would have to be applied perpendicularly to the axis of piece "A". This makes me think of "B" closing onto "A" as a hinged lid would do. After which the lid may have been nailed shut.

So, I am thinking of a box made of fairly light and soft wood, not a table or anything.

Another thought is that the little plates are of inexpensive manufacture, cheap, mass-produced, as for a disposable box. That makes me think of a wooden ammunition box: light and expendable. The lid may have had to be held firmly in place until opened for e.g. reasons of waterproofing by means od some sort of seal or so.

The bent plate was bent by mechanical action, probably when breaking the box open for one reason or another (firewood?). The bend is certainly not of manufacturing origin.

Just my two cents' worth.

Rudolf.
Tenno heika banzai.
 
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2010, 12:55:14 PM »

For all I can observe, looking at the pictures, the little serrated plates are certainly not hand-made but cut out by a machine. IF they are aluminium (which I doubt), the serrations cannot be meant to be pushed or hammered into any hard wood, the aluminium being too soft for that.

Many EPAC members have held the gidgies.  The consensus is that they are hand-made rather than machine made.  Although the notches are
carefully made, they do not look as though they were cut by a machine.

But if you find machine-made samples that match the artifacts, we'll have to swallow our pride (again) and admit that you were right and we were wrong.   ;)

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The bent plate was bent by mechanical action, probably when breaking the box open for one reason or another (firewood?). The bend is certainly not of manufacturing origin

You may be right.  Until we find other serrated aluminum (or aluminium) gidgies in their original condition and application, we're all just guessing.
LTM,

           Marty
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Kevin Weeks

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2010, 10:57:20 AM »

I've had an interesting thought regarding these bits. Hand made and furniture related. what specifically was said about the furniture made from the wood on the island?? there was a coffee table mentioned correct?? was the carpenter on the island or off?? maybe these clips were hand made by the same carpenter who made the box for amelia's bones??
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2010, 02:04:09 PM »

I've had an interesting thought regarding these bits. Hand made and furniture related. What specifically was said about the furniture made from the wood on the island? there was a coffee table mentioned correct?


The way I try to answer questions like this is by searching the TIGHAR website.  Lots of references to "coffee tables," but not to one constructed for Gallager.

Searching for "kanawa furniture," on the other hand, leads to Gallagher's 8th Progress Report:

"It is hoped to furnish the main living room of the Rest House with furniture constructed entirely from locally grown "kanawa" - a beautifully marked wood which abounds on the island and is being cut to waste as planting proceeds. All other furniture, with the exception of a bed, four chars and sanitary fittings, is also being made locally, although not necessarily from local timber."

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was the carpenter on the island or off?

On.

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maybe these clips were hand made by the same carpenter who made the box for amelia's bones?

Maybe.  Maybe the clips are even made out of aircraft aluminum from the Electra.  Maybe we could think up a hundred hypotheses about them.  Strange things do happen.
LTM,

           Marty
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Kevin Weeks

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2010, 04:44:38 AM »

Maybe.  Maybe the clips are even made out of aircraft aluminum from the Electra.  Maybe we could think up a hundred hypotheses about them.  Strange things do happen.

so the clips have not been analyzed to determine their alloy?? should be pretty easy to tell if they came off an aircraft. if they resemble 2024/duralumin/alclad then you can determine usage if not a specific plane. also, it looks to me like the screw might have a bit of wood left on it. is there a way to determine what kind of wood is on the screw? the local carpenter used indigenous and imported wood to make furniture, if it's local you can probably make some more assumptions.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2010, 08:02:36 AM »

So the clips have not been analyzed to determine their alloy?

They are made out of a silver-colored, non-magnetic material.

TIGHAR has not paid to have a lab do a metallurgical analysis of them.

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should be pretty easy to tell if they came off an aircraft. if they resemble 2024/duralumin/alclad then you can determine usage if not a specific plane.

That sounds right.

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It looks to me like the screw might have a bit of wood left on it. is there a way to determine what kind of wood is on the screw? the local carpenter used indigenous and imported wood to make furniture, if it's local you can probably make some more assumptions.

The photos do make it look as though some wood has adhered to the screws.  I don't know whether that is true or whether it is just discoloration.
LTM,

           Marty
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Patrick Dickson

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2010, 04:41:32 AM »

Maybe the serrations are there to grip fabric or carpet ?? as in an airliner. Even though the Electra interior had been extensively modified, there may have been some of the original fabric panels or carpeting still in place...maybe a piece easily removed when salvaging items from the plane that could have been carried to the Seven site ??
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Daniel Paul Cotts

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2010, 11:54:11 AM »

Is there an analysis of the screws regarding dimension and screw pitch? That might determine country of origin. If U.S. then a metallurgical analysis may be useful. If it appears to be consistent with Electra material then extant Lockheed aircraft of that era might be studied for a match.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2010, 02:30:28 PM »

Is there an analysis of the screws regarding dimension and screw pitch?

"Brass wood screws" is all I've heard.

If you could show that there is an identifiable difference in wood screws, as there are with machine screws, that might help.  I have my doubts because wood screws are, sorta by definition, self-tapping.  But this is just a presumption prior to investigation and is defeasible.
LTM,

           Marty
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Daniel Paul Cotts

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2010, 10:43:37 AM »

There is a large group of experts who read Fine Woodworking magazine. If we submit a short article to them asking for help maybe some good replies will be forthcoming.
The Taunton Press, Inc.
63 South Main St., PO Box 5506
Newtown, CT 06470-5506
Phone: 203-426-8171
Fax: 203-426-3434
Fine Woodworking Editorial: 800-309-8955; fw@taunton.com
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Can you explain what these little clips might be?
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2010, 10:51:29 AM »

There is a large group of experts who read Fine Woodworking magazine. If we submit a short article to them asking for help maybe some good replies will be forthcoming.
The Taunton Press, Inc.
63 South Main St., PO Box 5506
Newtown, CT 06470-5506
Phone: 203-426-8171
Fax: 203-426-3434
Fine Woodworking Editorial: 800-309-8955; fw@taunton.com

"What you mean 'we,' white man?"    :P

Why don't you send them an e-mail with a link to the gidgies page and this thread?  See if it's something that would intrigue them.

Go for it!
LTM,

           Marty
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