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Author Topic: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review  (Read 184362 times)

JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #120 on: November 14, 2014, 08:14:20 AM »

The 'font' (along with 'ALC' vs. 'ALCLAD' markings) will remain controversial until -

a) 2-2-V-1 is proven to be of Earhart provenance by some other means, e.g. finding of a truly clear photo that gets us beyond any ambiguity (which could also disprove provenance, of course), or
b) the 'font matter' is truly defined.

What you suggest would be one way of finding out.  I favor it, but at the moment don't know of a workable way to do it.  Would we peruse the library there for more pictures of airplanes of the day with open work where we might see such markings?  I doubt we'd find much of that - why would those obscure craft (by comparison Earhart was a big story) appear in the press so much?

Then there remains some possibility that Earhart brought the metal used for the 'patch' with her from the west coast, after all.

I can't address this font issue without thinking of how it must pique our critics - but once more I'll say 'put up true proof' of when the fonts changed and we'll go from there.  I'm all for it, but simply don't know how to truly define it yet.  I have to add that for now I see more promising pathways to proving (or disproving as it may come to be) 2-2-V-1's provenance, so stand by - we'll exhaust that as we can in due course.

Or don't stand by - go do the 'dust mite' boots on ground research to find out all that can be found about Alcoa's application of printed fonts.  I simply don't know where to go next - but looking for early historic examples is probably a good start.  I don't think we can define it from web information alone, as alluring as all the 'pre-war / war-time' pictures put up by the critics are in terms of 'byte'.

Maybe there are historic examples in Miami, after all.  It's a good idea.
- Jeff Neville

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Dale O. Beethe

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #121 on: November 14, 2014, 09:32:42 AM »

How would one find out what aircraft were working out of Miami, or could have been repaired in Miami, at the time?  Tracking them down might require a lot of legwork, but it would be worth it if you could find a matching font that could be dated to 1937.  Once again, it would seem like a long shot, but what are the odds of finding 2-2-V-1 when and where it was found, considering what it likely was?
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John Ousterhout

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #122 on: November 14, 2014, 09:58:06 AM »

Is there someone in the Miami area who could check at the Miami Museum of Flight for some 1937-vintage aircraft that might have old repairs?  Also there are lots of other aircraft services listedlisted in the Miami phone directory]Miami Museum of Flight has some antique aircraft, some of which might be worth looking at for 1937 repair work.
Also any of the aircraft services  [url=http://www.informationpages.com/West-Miami,FL/Aircraft-Antique-Restoration)]listed in the Miami phone directory
, one of which might have leads to offer.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #123 on: November 14, 2014, 10:38:16 AM »

Awful lot of legwork for only the barest chance of any reward. I still feel that the whole font question is secondary to all the other characteristics of 2-2-V-1 and the information that they will yield to us, as we learn new questions to ask it. The Great Font Debate has made it abundantly clear - to me - that the material labeling practices at that time were so varied and inconsistent as to be virtually meaningless as a way to qualify, or disqualify, 2-2-V-1 as a piece from our favorite Electra.

This new University of Miami photo demonstrates yet again that there are reams of untapped material about Earhart and Noonan still out there. It almost always takes boots on the ground to find it. Talk is cheap. Answers are expensive. I am doing what I can, where I can, to fund those answers. I heartily encourage all other forum participants to do the same.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #124 on: November 14, 2014, 01:15:52 PM »

The fonts have no power to 'prove' Earhart provenance; they do have the potential power to 'disprove', without a doubt.

What has to be done to 'disprove' - again - is to go beyond the suggestive photos (yes, they are highly suggestive, and tempting) and pinpoint when this changed on metal markings.  I'm not afraid of 'disproving', should that become the case - but I'm more for spending my energy and time on things that might 'prove' 2-2-V-1's tie to the Electra.

We know that the term 'ALCLAD' has been used in the industry since 1927 - we do not know how many variants of the term / abbreviation were truly used, or when they were introduced.  The only thing the web photos so far tell us is that predominantly, it is obvious that wartime goods carried the 'more modern' (I see it that way) print, whereas prewar stuff more obviously carried 'more antiquated' print, if you will.  The photos - as tempting as they are, do not draw a true line. 

I notice that TIGHAR has drawn criticisms of false science of late - most peculiar, coming from some who would hold that the photo record of the font issue 'proves' us wrong... 
- Jeff Neville

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Steve Lyle Gunderson

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #125 on: November 14, 2014, 02:47:40 PM »

Jeff, Monty,
I have been unable to locate the original thread that I downloaded this picture from (on 5-3-14) so I'll just repost it.
The picture is of an Electra during fabrication. The bulkhead between the cockpit and the cabin has what looks to be material ID markings as does the 4th frame. I can almost read the markings but I think some enhancement is needed. Can this photo provide any relevant information or evidence of ALCLAD labeling practice in use on an Electra at the time of manufacture?

LTM who finds this whole thing riveting.
Steve G
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Dale O. Beethe

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #126 on: November 14, 2014, 03:13:58 PM »

The only thing that finding the matching font on ACLAD known to date from 1937 (or earlier)  would prove is that 2-2-V-1 couldn't be EXCLUDED from being a piece of the Electra.  In that sense it might be worth someone's time and effort to look for it.  (I, for one, sometimes have more time than money, and I would think others in the Miami area might be in the same boat.)
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #127 on: November 15, 2014, 07:45:08 AM »

Yes, and if someone can, great!  I simply believe it will take 'boots on the ground' to do it as I have looked a great deal on the net for defining information to no avail, other than the 'suggestive photos', which are common enough.

As for me for now I am more interested in gaining more detail about what the actual 'patch' really looked like up close, if it can be learned from this latest round of photos just found in Miami.  I believe that is the more direct path to being able to determine 2-2-V-1's relevance with more certainty.
- Jeff Neville

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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #128 on: November 15, 2014, 07:46:39 AM »

Jeff, Monty,
I have been unable to locate the original thread that I downloaded this picture from (on 5-3-14) so I'll just repost it.
The picture is of an Electra during fabrication. The bulkhead between the cockpit and the cabin has what looks to be material ID markings as does the 4th frame. I can almost read the markings but I think some enhancement is needed. Can this photo provide any relevant information or evidence of ALCLAD labeling practice in use on an Electra at the time of manufacture?

LTM who finds this whole thing riveting.

Thanks for reposting that, Steve.

As best I can tell (the resolution fades as I enlarge it) the markings are the familiar 'ALC' serifed font on the slanted bulkhead.
- Jeff Neville

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Dale O. Beethe

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #129 on: November 15, 2014, 08:24:16 AM »

Oh yes, definitely a "boots on the ground" thing.  I would think the only way you could match the fonts for sure would be to go see them and photograph them (if, of course, they exist) from up close.  I have no expertise in aircraft construction, but someone like me could certainly look for and photograph lettering on aluminum.  Unfortunately, I'm too far away to handle this one. 
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #130 on: November 15, 2014, 08:23:41 PM »

I received the attached photo of the Electra at Darwin (in hangar) from David Billings (East New Britain hypothesis).  David felt it was of interest as to what might be oil canning in the skin, and that some qualified observers belive that this proves an attending 'absence of stiffeners'.  This would be, of course, disqualifying of 2-2-V-1's possible provenance to the Electra - that artifact has evidence of stiffeners having been attached. 

David was eager for me to see and consider the import of these images and I appreciate the opportunity to critique the critique.  We may have seen this shot before, but it was not clear to me that we've seen the same one.  I do recall that there is a post here somewhere of the hangared bird in Darwin.  This may be a slightly different angle of view than the other, if so - I'm not sure (should have found it but eyes are tired). 

As to what is shown, the idea among those critiquing 2-2-V-1 is that if bracing were present on the Electra's window covering, as some of us believe was the case, the deformity we see should not be there.  I can respect that, but do not agree with that as an absolute 'must be'; I can easily visualize lots of reasons that a lightly braced structure might behave this way.  I hope that we who disagree can respect each other, but won't shrink from my own views.

The asserted 'deformity' appears as a somewhat 'flattened' area, as I'll call it, near the upper edge of the covering.  It can be seen as the line of light that is clearly distorted near the top of the covering.  This distortion suggests a somewhat broad, flattened area where a more continuous curve might be expected.  What is suggested to me visually is that a somewhat flattened area does show up - maybe even as slightly concave - but I am reserved as to its real degree and significance.  This 'anomalous' area roughly follows the edge of the window opening underneath, at its upper limit, and is visible as it transits across the sheet toward the middle 'waterline' area, somewhat.  You look - a picture is worth a thousand words (not that I can't find them...  ::)).

To explain my own view a bit further -

Many may recall that I have offered the idea here before that the panel may have been lightly braced.  As such, it is quite as possible to me that a distortion such as we see suggested by this picture could result with light bracing.  A blunt force might do that, in my opinion - light, improvised bracing could easily deform with the outer sheet well enough to give such a smooth transition.  I've seen that in very similar respects before.  Or, we could still be looking at some of the residual 'puckering' effect I've spoken of as a possibility.  It is hard to say - we were not there and do not have first-hand, certain knowledge.  I believe it is also hard to say how much 'deformity' is there - although I do believe it is real (and a good visual catch).

So much for my thoughts.  I hope by sharing this information on the forum I've essentially helped the critics subject their own conclusions to more scrutiny, as we all must submit to.  So, in that spirit I hope, have a look at this photo - one version showing the window covering enlarged with some attending notes. 

It occurs to me that while light doesn't 'lie', it might exaggerate - but I leave that judgment to those who know photo-imagery better than I.  That others differ with my view of that does not bother me, so long as it is in honest disagreement.  I think we'd all do well to avoid the now all-to-common condemnation of other's ideas that we see.  Wishful thinking, I guess - but I have grown to have hopes for a more positive Earhart search community nonetheless: the negatives flying around do not help any of us look more favorable in the public eye.

Anyway, I hope this picture is worthwhile for review.  I found it interesting, but contrary to the views of some others, simply don't see it as conclusive as to the absence of bracing on the window covering on the Electra.  Just my view - I hope you all will consider it carefully.

ADDED -

I'm having trouble loading the full image / or the second of two images: the close-up isn't copying.  For now, examine the obvious 'patch' area and you should see the light distortions I've tried to describe.  I'll load the balance ASAP.

UPDATED: see attached Word doc for details.  Conversion didn't work - will try another method tomorrow, sorry.
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 08:47:57 PM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #131 on: November 15, 2014, 10:00:01 PM »

David felt it was of interest as to what might be oil canning in the skin.
I see a darker area on the patch and also see a dark area just aft of the patch and on other parts of the plane.(I think it is good that we have the whole plane and not just an enlargement). There are multiple manmade or skylight light sources in that picture so I don't think we are seeing a typical shadow like the direct sunlight might make.
I think the newer aluminum of the patch is still reflecting other objects more than the older aluminum is.
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« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 10:03:35 PM by Greg Daspit »
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Bessel P Sybesma

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #132 on: November 16, 2014, 12:36:34 AM »

Could it be possible that the stiffeners were added after the Darwin picture was taken?
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Ron Lyons

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #133 on: November 16, 2014, 12:56:29 AM »

This is a pretty fascinating picture.  A few comments that come to mind.

1. It appears to me that there is a definite deformity to the patch.  Basically a shallow 'dent' where the piece is depressed slightly (appears to be an inch or so) more than the rest of the patch, the famous oil-canning people talk about. 

What does that mean?  Nothing, in my opinion.  You have a piece of sheet metal fashioned to cover up a window.

Lets think about the coaming around the window that we've looked at in the 'selfie' picture.  Is it perfectly formed?  Are there no creases or dents in the coaming?  Hell no, it's got all kinds of deformities because it was created by a mechanic with a hammer!  Just as the window coaming wasn't perfect, likely the skin created to cover it back up wasn't perfect either.  So my suggestion would be that the 'dent' or oil canned area could have been present from the very beginning.  There could be a stringer under it that was also 'dented' or not perfectly straight.  Perfectly straight, in this instance, by the way, is slightly curved to match the surface of the plane. 

If you really wanted to be a jerk, you could simply present as evidence "Yeah, you can see the dent on the artifact!"  (see attachment)  Of course you can't necessarily, because you can't infer from the picture exactly what the original 'dent' looked like or where exactly it started or ended; and you can't infer from the artifact what dents are original, created later, or were bent out of the artifact that were originally there!  It's metal; it can bend. 

2.  One thing I've noticed is that people obsess on finding 1 piece of evidence or information that disproves the entire thing, or proves the entire thing.  I feel that this is a fallacy.  You can't find a single picture that seems to suggest that there was a dent, and then leap to that must mean there was no stringer, and since the artifact has stringers, it can't be the patch.  Why?  ... because we have 15 other reasons that can't really be explained away, that we feel is strong evidence that it IS the patch.  Sure if you found a picture of the rivets and they didn't match, that would disprove it, but one picture that you infer excludes the artifact is not enough to disprove the other 15 things that we have inferred validate it.  We're only catching 'shades' of evidence, we haven't seen any black and white evidence yet. 


I'll say this: the strongest evidence, so far, that this is the patch panel, is that it was found on the island that so much other evidence suggests is where the plane went down!  It's very hard to find a single piece of evidence that proves something like this conclusively, but it's easily proven (in my mind) by all the interdependent evidence. 
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Ron Lyons

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - Answering Critical Review
« Reply #134 on: November 16, 2014, 01:07:49 AM »

I'm going to go ahead and go wayyyy into speculation; completely unscientific here, guys.

look at the picture of the plane in the hanger.  The patch appears to have a crease, that starts on the right side of the patch and travels to the left, about halfway down.  It travels at about a 20 degree slant from about 60% up the patch on the right edge, to about 40% up the patch, near the center... kind of fading out at about the center of the patch.  See it?  It appears to be the bottom of the oil-canned 'dent'.

Now look at the patch.  The same crease appears to be on it.  On the right you can see it starting at about the second row of rivets, and it travels down to the left near the center vertical piece of tape, disappearing near the center.  What remains of the oil canned dent is to the left of Ric's right hand.

Again, completely unscientific.  Could have happened at any time.  Could be a trick of light... but damn if it doesn't look the same to me...

« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 01:14:21 AM by Ron Lyons »
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